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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

I just caught up with some friends from Colorado and it seems like some long-time people have unplugged, which makes me happy as can be. also, M@rk W@ll@ce seems to be as fervently lying to people as he ever has. one of the lies I can't even repeat here, but apparently a corps couple was given one of those punishment kind of "vacations" because they couldn't get a fellowship of non-tithing rebels to toe the line and M@rk put out the word that they were having "family problems" so needed to get their "walk" "right" with God so were "taking some time off". such crap! hey M@rk, remember that couple who left a few years back because they didn't like you lying about people, so you told everyone that they left because they love money more than God? why do you love to lie about people so much? sadly, a couple sold their home sometime in the last couple of years so they could run one of twi's worthless "fellowships". also, N@ncy H3msl3y is as clueless as ever and the R7d3rs are vile yes-men who spread the same lies that M@rk spews from his filthy mouth. knowing that people I love have left is a relief. knowing the people who hurt them and me are still up to their old games seems like status quo. keep it up, guys. soon twi will dwindle into nothing.

who said anything about democracy? I never saw democracy.

NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo!!!!!! actually I was thinking we should coin some new terminology here and just call it a twictatorship. it will save time typing. plus it has sort of an Elmer Fudd ring to it.

please do not take my name in vain.

i personally would love to hear -- from former leaders -- how they were a victim of the veepster -- and not just how they tried to help victims hope that makes sense i'm not saying that in a judgmental way at all. honest question.

you're entitled to your opinion.

So how come he didn't become a grease spot by midnight?

heh, well I found by searching google that the only thing on twitter about twi was a flurry of scorn over the March '07 videos they posted. apparently twits do not tweet... or they're very secretive about their association with twi.

yes, but that would only have to do with your rights to make and distribute copies, not with the question of whether twi has the right to control something they originally distributed. WD made the assertion that twi controls who has access to the tapes, and I asked if there is a contract between twi and the borrower. if there isn't, then there was a transfer of ownership and first sale doctrine applies, which means the owner can dispose of the tapes however they like. additionally, anyone who obtained the tapes subsequent to the original "owner" or "borrower" (it remains to be seen which it is) has not broken any laws and can distribute the tapes as they see fit. twi's only recourse is to go after the original borrower for breach of contract. they can't claim tangible property that they haven't legally established is theirs.

amen, Jeff. and seriously, if anyone (read, any of the vpw-worshipping organizations) is stupid enough to take someone who's told their story of being victimized by vpw to court for libel, I'll donate money toward their defense. it's not hard to get your legal fees back when you win a case (as I know from experience) and I don't like seeing people bullied into shutting up when they tell the truth. I got enough of that in twi.

I can say this honestly with no hesitation whatsoever. Leadership in my splinter group destroyed my life and others with false accusations. What went hand in hand with the lives they destroyed was a false and insane opinion of there spiritual authority and their competency. I have heard many sharings that have made it clear that my former splinter group leadership learned how to do these things from top TWI leadership. I wish my former splinter group was willing to consider people like me to be not guilty without hard evidence. But the greasespotters that I've heard since I came hear are in an altogether better universe than TWI leadership was in terms of handling these things IMO. Well, at least the ones who are not casting doubt on honest victims by calling into question many experiences and documented occurrences. When the documentation fits the personal sharings so well, it seems very reasonable to believe the sharings without having anything specific reason to doubt them. Right now I am most thankful for the many Greasespotters who have been brave enough to share their experiences in spite of the oppressive nature of some of the opposition. So when it is all said and done for me, the Greasespotters have done a better job in these things than TWI leadership, and better too than those who cast doubt on reasonable and honest testimony (edited for spelling)

Actually you have "passed judgment." It is your judgment (opinion) that you can't say someone is guilty of a crime unless that person has been tried and convicted in a court of law. In your eyes that person is innocent and evidence is not factual unless it has been "proven" through the process of litigation. You also assume that only the legal system can determine fact or truth. It's an interesting standard, one which I don't believe is practical. Do you apply that standard to every situation?

The Biblical accuracy or inaccuracy of dispensationalism is not the issue here. That is a subject for the doctrinal forum. The simple fact is that dispensationalism is a theological system. Wierwille used that system to excuse his sexual indiscretions. Ergo, he used theology (accurate or not) to have sex with women other than his wife.

actually it's not that easy to find out on the internet whether people have been in trouble with the law. most criminal and legal cases are not published on the internet. usually you have to go to wherever records are stored, county by county, and look through the archives. if you can't do it, you have to hire a researcher. yep.

I'm a female potato :) you are right about the squeaky wheels. narcissists, the lot of them. my ex, too. he was "corps material" because of his attention-seeking behavior, until we actually made it into residence and he couldn't hold his stuff together. I'm so thankful we got kicked out. I hate squeaky wheels, and I hated the expectation that I should be one to get listened to. I like living with people who can just dialogue, explaining and listening, you know? didn't happen in twi. we were taught to listen with the ulterior motive to get people BACK ON THE WORD, and usually make them feel like crap in the process.

just the two bolded points above, WD: do you know that often people who've been in highly abusive situations have a hard time being "neutral", as you put it? the more deeply they've been hurt, the less neutral they are especially when they are in the process of coming to grips with having been abused. I know first-hand about how people treat you... like a liar, like you're insane, when nothing could be further from the truth. the other is, I'm sure there are a LOT of women that vpw didn't try to take advantage of, for whatever reason. molesters and rapists choose their victims based on certain criteria. it'd be nice to know when she worked for him, how often, did she see any of the women at the time they were with vpw, or did she work for him under other circumstances? see, you can't just assume that since your wife didn't get molested, that no one else did. lots of people survive being murdered by serial killers because they just aren't the right victim.

Potato, thankyou for those comments about building our own foundations with our experiences.....Strangely enough Potato, Dove and I`s paths did bring us into contact with some of the same people. Dove, with all compassion, I want to say....that I know how nice it was to be with John (since you brought him up) I was in that state too> I loved the Wiengarners that came after as well...I loved the work days at emporia, the work days at the limb....I loved serving as corpes spouse..opening our home to light bearers and visiting dignitaries...fellowshipping with the incredible believers....and HAD had that been my only experience in twi....I would probably be shoulder to shoulder with you right now in your defense. However, there were other states, other programs, other leaders where cruelty and mistreatment occurred. I experienced some pretty awful things. I heard some very ungodly teachings, saw some things that weren`t right. I saw a lot of the same side of twi that you did, I just saw other stuff that wasn`t as idealistic. I don`t want to argue with you, I understand where you are coming from. I just don`t think that we can completely understand what the rest of these guys endured in residence, not having been there.

WD, I'd love to know if you ever lived on grounds at a root locale. that would give some basis for the authority you'd like us to think you have. yeah whatever. rascal has shared a lot about her experiences, but you won't even answer a direct question about where you gathered all this wisdom you want everyone to think you have. you spend your time attacking, instead of building your own foundation for gaining respect. your experience wasn't the same, couldn't have been, unless you both spent the same amount of time with the same people in the same locations for the same period of time, even then it'd be different depending on who was in the doghouse for not being spiritual enough. enough with the high horse parade, why don't you just back up your own opinions based on your own experience instead of working so hard to tear other people down? you may have left twi, but it doesn't seem to have left you.

Only to you friend. Your nameless faceless informants inflections and mannerisms of 2nd hand information have what kind of credibility when countering the first hand accounts of the people here, accounts by leaders whom are NOT nameless or faceless...that cooroborate tha worst stories of drugging and rape?

you might need to rewrite this statement, it's pretty badly mangled and I'm likely misunderstanding it but I'll give it a go... I don't THINK I established that vpw doesn't have constitutional rights, he doesn't have them. that's a fact. no one is obligated to treat him with presumption of innocence. yes, if he's been libeled, the person committing the libel can be taken to court. so, why, when twi sends their lawyers after every little church using "the way" in their name, do they ignore what you're saying constitutes libel? any burden of proof is on them, not on vpw's victims, therefore his victims should be treated with presumption of innocence until such a time as their guilt in a libel suit has been decided. until I see a guilty verdict, THERE IS NO LIBEL. I was thinking the same thing! or a merry-go-round. let's keeping pushing as fast as we can and see who falls off first! doesn't it strike you as ironic, rascal? we could just as easly talk about the ranting day after day about crimes committed because we're always hearing about this alleged libel. I just want to know, what libel? WRONG. it's not libel until the alleged libel is proven to be false in court. the truth doesn't have to be documented in court.

Why is it this reminds me of a traffic round about? First, you said if there was confirmation of proven guilt, you would shout from the roof tops. Then, when an example was given, you said the context was about VPW, not just any old guilt. Now, you're saying it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, even though that seems to be the title of the thread. It looks to me like you are having trouble figuring out how to navigate the round about.

ROFLM . . . OFF!! Can't argue with that logic. Well, let me rephrase that. You can't successfully argue with that logic. . . can try and probably will try. . . are different matters all together.

did you actually read http://federalevidence.com/rules-of-evidence? I know you quoted an uncited wikipedia article to support your position on evidence, but that's a pretty weak source. so far, no one has stepped forward to say they were with vpw to testify he could not have committed the crimes in question. NO ONE HAS ATTEMPTED TO CLEAR HIS NAME, and there are sufficient, independent sources of evidence indicating his guilt.

so, you weren't ever "in"? were you a recruit that wouldn't commit?

no, then resting in the nice cool water, the burner is turned on. the heat gradually rises until the frog is boiled to death without a struggle, not having noticed the danger it was in until it was too late. on the other hand, if you toss a frog into boiling water it'll do it's best to escape in the seconds of life before it boils to death. note: I haven't tested this. snopes (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp) reports the fable is not true, but although it is false it aptly illustrates what happens when things change from good to horrific over time, instead of just being visibly horrific from the get-go.

American Heritage Dictionary: fact n. 1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy. 2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact. b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case. c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts. 3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact. 4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact. dog crap on the lawn is information based on a real occurrence (namely the dog crapping on the lawn), ergo it is a fact that crap on the lawn is a fact, because it can be demonstrated to have existed if anyone saw the dog put it there.

I can't believe I spelled criminal wrong in my last post. . . sorry would not let me edit. I need to seriously spell check.

I could interview vpw's and lcm's victims, publish a book revealing the sordid details of those two men's criminal lifestyles, without ever once having to use the word "alleged" or being obliged to assume them innocent. it doesn't take a judge's decision in court to demonstrate guilt.

I never saw a response to this question. Might also be interesting to note that not everyone who posts here is in America.

I have been reading and commenting on the first hand accounts given of rape, rapes in the corpes and lead accidents for years right here at greasespot, along with relating my own injustices and abuses suffered. That is what gs is here for last I checked....to tell the OTHER side of the story, the one we didn`t get to hear while in twi. Isn`t it silly to be at odds with all of the first hand accounts here based on your second and third hand information?

None other than I think it's indicative of a mind that isn't working very well. Which is why I don't spend a lot of time conversing with the owner of said mind. As momma always told me "You can't argue with a crazy person"...

The integrity of "The Word" is always at stake. (What the heck does that even mean?)

If the "clues" are hidden in "the revelation that wierwille was getting"......does that suggest one is to study the intricate details of wierwille's short stories? Embedded in a sleuth searching of mystical secrecy, if one were to step off the westbound train in Jubbelpor, India and travel a camel's day (eight miles) due east......the secret inscription on the Balaam A$$ Market Wall, flanked by red drapes, gives precise GPS coordinates to a secret vault under the Wierwille Barn.... the exact location where wierwille discarded notes and paradigms of revelations long abandoned. Kinda silly how most pfal students actually thought that they were attending a Bible class.

Just to be fair..........wierwille terminated a fair share of corps as well, but not in such a blatant manner or public setting. Yet, wierwille was much more cunning in "turning the screws" on someone and forcing them out and then throwing the label of cop-out at them. Plus, wierwille was likened "a general" who only had to suggest something......and his men followed out the order while wierwille stayed slightly removed from the situation. In contrast, martindale had few of his mentors' discretions. Martindale was a bull in a china closet......openly displaying disarray and destruction.

I really resent you guys taking my name in vain!

They(twi)played off we were honest,If they asked we would tell. Now it would be F@$k them!! I t aint nor ever was gods money. No wonder,if even in the stretch of the imagination the "law of believing' never worked for fo the majority of us. A stamp or a money order subtracted from their precious abs would not have mattered. They(twi) truly has a wicked dollar.

Manipulation,Pure and simple,Put on The Way International sunglasses,everything becomes rose colored, ah yes sweet deception,added to the fact I was young impressionable,looking for friendship..... Lcms book was twi in a nutshell,Pretty blue cover,How to understand the bible,we have the answers, A semi complicated formula Throw out a few greek words supsema..ect... When was it written? At the end of Pauls life?Sure could not have been for the "believer"Remember they had all "departed from Paul"what I thought was true may not be,After all you have to see it in the originals,Heck there are no originals!So it is no more than a compiliation of stories,that mysteriously survived for a few hundred years than was copied into adnauseum copies?Putting whoevers copied it ideas into the mix? Maybe throughout the last 2 centuries there have been lots of wierwilles and lcms around,to twist it the way they wanted it? Ya gotta take it on faith brother!

personally, that's the last thing I'd put my effort into and I have several things I'm working on for publication. twi can't do anything about satire. as americans we have the right to satirize pretty much anything we want.

a close friend and i were just talking not an hour ago about young ladies we knew who thought they were the only one privileged to be spiritually taking care of the man of god until going to see him and bless him and finding him blessing someone else. how gross now, of course. but one would probably have to try and understand the mind and the past etc. of a person at the time. i haven't gotten kris's book yet. i just don't know if i want to re-live my hell right now

It's interesting that there are twi innies who are checking out this book...it seems that their cult has become so small that they are probably enthralled that anyone even mentions them at all...they rally together to criticize the book only because there's no one else talking about them anymore... ...I can hear it now..."it's an attack of the adversary! Get the Yak twig together!"...

cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion. if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.

why in the world did you get all 3 a vasectomy ? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha yes happy everything to everyone i can't believe the sheet people make people feel sheety about i hope heaven is a nice place