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Uhhh - not by my experience in raising two kids. Every parent I know attends PTC's, other school functions, and is involved in school...as in every one I know...and if the kids got in some yogurt the parents were'nt all calling their attorneys. While I certainly cannot disagree with you that it does happen, and perhaps may happen a lot, it is not ubiquitous.

well said Ham, I don't disagree with any of that. I simply add that in my view, the goal of building positive self esteem is to enhance learning. (edit to add a word)

After one week of assistantship training.. it isn't so much.. "let's not pick on the poor kids self esteem". It's more like.. how can we build a positive self esteem. So many studies seem to prove kids will perform as well as we can tell them they can. Give me a few months or years of real experience.. and maybe I can say more.. :) Tutoring.. I can tell the difference. I've told people they are as smart as anyone else, they have the capacity to learn.. and it really is true. The same portion of the brain that can do language also does math. Is one "wired" to be able to understand math? Yes. Doesn't make everything wonderful and easy though..

I recently have been "found" by my dear friend that had spoken with the then-family corps coordinator that marked and avoided my son and me, throwing us out of the cult over false accusations almost 15 years ago. My friend and I had lost touch over the years and she just found me a couple months ago. This reunion inspired me to write that man and see if he had anything to say to me and my son, now that he's been out of the cult for years too. I figured I was finally ready to hear what he might say, really thinking he'd say something like it was all a mess and no, we didn't really believe you and your son were doing what we said we believed you were doing. I don't know really what I expected, but here's what I got. I wrote him on Jan. 23. He wrote me back a week later. 3 days after that, I wrote him again, "filling him in" as he'd asked. Today is Mar 15 and I've still not heard back from him. I was hoping to post a report of some closure. Actually, I am reporting closure, but not thanks to his input. The very second I hit the Send button on the "filling him in e-mail", I felt a huge weight lift off my shoulders. I hadn't contacted him sooner than this because I wasn't ready to "let him or twi off the hook". If he apologized to me and asked my forgiveness, I would have given it - but somehow I felt like I didn't have to forgive him until he asked me to. Surely he knew what he said and did to me (and my son), surely it wasn't THAT common a thing he had to do in his job - or was it? Nah, couldn't be. Now I'm thinking maybe it was! I've concluded that for myself, I have come to believe that I didn't want to give that man an opportunity to apologize to me and my son until I was good and ready to forgive him and twi. In my own little corner of the world, I wasn't letting him off the hook that easily. They absolutely DESTROYED my world with their false accusations. I was going to hold my grudge until he sought me out and asked my forgiveness! When that dawned on me, I realized that I was still giving them power over me and my peace of mind, my future, my kids' lives… I felt like a fool for being sucked into this cult. I felt like a bad mom for dragging my precious son into it. I felt like a bad wife for divorcing my husband because twi told me to. I felt like I got caught being needy, weak, spiritually immature, all sorts of negatives that I COULDN'T forgive myself for. What I didn't notice until reading in the current forgiveness thread, was that I hadn't forgiven MYSELF and I wasn't going to even be able to forgive myself until I forgave them! As long as I was focussed on what they'd done to me, I wasn't seeing what I'd done to me by giving them that power over me. As long as I continued holding my grudge against him and them, I didn't have to face my part in it. As long as he (they) never repented and asked my forgiveness, this resentment and hard heartedness would continue in me. I never had to look at how I contributed to my situation. It was just "all their fault". I deliberately decided that whether or not I ever heard back an apology from him, I was taking my power back. It no longer matters to me if I ever hear back from him. I've forgiven him, twi, and best of all, ME. I'm thrilled with the way I feel inside now. I had been carrying around tons of guilt that I really didn't need to carry - for years and years. Sure, I'd like to hear why they did what they did to me and my son, but it no longer matters to me. It used to be very important to me. I feel truly liberated in a way I hadn't realized I wasn't free. I feel like my healing has really stepped up a notch here. Now I feel free-er than ever! I changed only the names of the people named to their twi position in this exchange. On Jan 23, 2008, M&A'd One wrote: > Family Corp Coord, > > My name is M&A'd One. I'm writing to ask you if you'd be so > kind as to tell me a few things so that I can put away some of my > history and my son's. > > I was told years ago that you made it a point to speak to those > that wanted to speak with you in cases like ours. I have no idea > if you still do or not, nor do I know if you even remember us. At > the time I was told that, I felt unable to speak graciously with you. > > I would prefer e-mail contact if it's all the same to you, if > you're even up for any discussion with me. > > Thank you, > M&A'd one On 1/30/08, Family Corps Coord wrote: Don't remember. Fill me in. I'm kind of at a loss why you figure what I think even matters. On 2/2/08, M&A'd One wrote: Specifically, I mean to ask why me and my son, as well as who did the false accusations come from. We had been wows in Santa Fe, NM that last year of the wow program. That was also my apprentice year. I spoke with Cabinet Member at the rock, told him I felt it would have been best for me to take a second apprentice year as I still had some debt to handle for my son's hospitalization while we were wow. He convinced me that God wanted me in THAT corps, that year, that God had big plans for me. I found someone to take over my payments on that debt while I would be in residence. I went into residence and was thrilled that you were the coordinator, although when I heard Former Family Corps Coords weren't staying on as corps coordinators I was disappointed. I had met you when you came to my home state to visit your son in the hospital. I had been impressed with you and you were, in my opinion, a great man of God. I couldn't wait to learn at your feet. I ate breakfast at the head table with you and the Asst Family Corps Coords, feeling like I was right where God wanted me and when my first assignment in residence was to clean toilets I was thankful for the opportunity. Within 30 minutes of starting that assignment I was summoned to the president's parlor where you first demanded that I not speak a single word, as anything I would say would be a lie. You went on, in front of my beloved Asst Corps Coords, to chew me up and spit me out like I'd never been talked to in all my life. You accused my son of being a homosexual child molester, said you had a drawing of my son with some boy's "dick in his mouth" and refused to tell me who said such things about my son. You accused me of trying to "sneak this contamination" onto your campus and made it very clear that I was no longer welcome at the way and that God was onto me and you guys there weren't fooled either. You "allowed" me one hour to pack up and get off "your campus". You demanded that I go to the high school and get my "piece of dang" son. You said that if I ran true to form I would be badmouthing the ministry within 24 hours. You broke me. I drove about a half mile from the campus after Asst Family Corps Coord packed me up, as I was physically and emotionally destroyed, unable to pack myself. I barely made it to the school, where I asked my son about the sex he'd been having. I tried to call headquarters and talk to TWI President or someone who could help us get to the bottom of this misunderstanding. Trunk Coord finally took the call and attacked us some more, insisting that we had best not go over there, as there were armed guards patrolling the grounds on the lookout for us, with pictures of me and my 13-year-old son. We were clearly no longer welcome at the way. That same week, a friend of mine from home that had never been involved in the way, called me at the Indiana campus and was given to you. You used the most vile language she had ever heard in her life, shocked her to think you were a minister speaking that way, and said that you told her if she thought I was so great she should go to FL and bed down with me - that I was a lesbian. My questions for you are simply: 1. Where did you get this information about my son and me? 2. Why were we singled out and falsely accused? Family Corps Coord, my son was not nor is he a homosexual. IF he were, I'd love him just the same. He is not, though, and those were false accusations. I believed in the way ministry and the way corps program and taught my son as I believed. We were completely destroyed by your words. We were never given the opportunity to face our accusers or answer to the accusations. It took me years to understand that the way was not what I had believed it to be. I sunk my whole heart and soul into that ministry, as I believe you did. Please help me put these last pieces to rest so I can put that away once and for all. It's what you thought then, not what you think now, that I'm asking. I don't imagine you believe now what you did then. At least I hope not, for your sake. I believe at this point that you were "just doing your job" and following what you were instructed to do in your position at the time. I see you as no more guilty than I was when I avoided others who had been falsely accused before me. I bear no ill will toward you. I'm simply trying to put closure to that horrific experience my son and I survived. M&A'd One

Yeah, I dunno. I find it a little self-serving to attribute any human goodness to a specific religion. "Gosh, that guy's just wonderful. Therefore, he must be the embodiment of my belief system." I think people's innate nature is usually independant of whatever religion they choose. I've known wonderfully loving, giving Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and even a Wiccan or two. I've also known people of those faiths who were something less than that...

My wife has done a lot of substitute teaching. She began working on her certification to teach full-time, but the liberal bias of the curriculum made her cringe. She's now happy to do the occasional sub jub. If you don't expect to be there tomorrow, you don't have to take a lot of crap! George More likely, it's what the NEA wants. George

Dear Bowtwi, I read your posts about what happened to you and your son. You are an amazing woman to have survived and forgiven all of that. You are an inspiration to all of us. I'm glad your dear friend found you. She was pivotal in helping you understand what was really true. I was wondering if this man ever acknowledged your second letter or tried to make ammends. I hope you don't mind me asking. CrystalCB.

yeah, I think he wanted a foothold for something else. He may have not even known what he was up to. Give a mouse a cookie . . .

I really think.. of two individuals, to be on some kind of board, assigned arbitrary power over other people's lives.. in this situation, one could not name a worse choice. I would go as far to say that it is frightening. there are way too many unresolved issues.. unanswered questions.

The bad thing about all of this.. da way made both of them. They could have EASILY defused the situation. Just let mac wander in the woods once a year or something.. let him do whatever he wanted.. he wouldn't give them a REASON to run him off grounds.. and practically nobody would have known. He would come, do his thing.. quietly leave and that would be the end of it.. no "compromise" with da "adversary" I guess..

I dunno about all of this.. while I tread lightly regarding individuals here who have loved ones interred on way grounds.. I really really think.. mac was an opportunist.. I think he wanted back in the organization, at whatever capacity possible. Including trespass "rights". Does this make sense? Or am I seeing something really off base here? Maybe he was trying to stage a coup of sorts. Look at one of the other players involved, about the same time period.. jp. He brought accusations of neglect, indifference and harshness of the then way in regards to.. his ma. While I have compassion in regards to Mrs. Wierwille.. Would he possibly use the heart-tugging situation to his advantage? Its just a thought. Is there any coincidence here that these two players somehow seem to converge on a Mississippi farm? And the new tactic- from what I perceive.. if you can't join them, (try to) beat them. They have a new wierwille to develop, who has a strikingly familiar name (assigned to him by pa) for the twenty-first century.. they resurrect the old program, and merely copy the goals, the objectives, the methods.. Honestly, in my opinion, people have been "played" here..

Some people just like raising a stink.

I just don't understand why he went about it the way he did. He was looking for public sympathy. The legal system was waiting for him. Either he had other motives, or he was just sloppy.

Wow, this subject hasn't come up here in a long time. I'm glad it has because I'm one of those family members that has a loved one buried on their sacred grounds, in the way woods, at the campfire area and it's been a rough road some days since my choice to wave buhbye to TWI, knowing full well that I was also leaving the cremated remains of my husband behind also. I thank Doug, and have personally, for his tenacity and willingness to take the action he took as it afforded my eldest daughter a little more freedom to visit TWI grounds shortly after Doug's legal matters and she was able to, with TWI permission, get some of the dirt from where her dad is buried. Some of the things that have changed, allegedly because of Doug's actions, however, hurt our heart too, but of TWI's decision, not Doug's. They removed the names of the dead from the cabin in the woods wall. Remember those plaques on that west wall? They're gone, which is very sad to us. If we want to travel and make a visit to TWI grounds and pay our respects like a family might at the cemetary, we do have to contact them and make arrangements and jump through some of their hoops, but we, as a family, have decided that it's better than the possibility that we'd flat be turned away. My youngest daughter was only 23 months when her daddy died, so she has no memory of those woods, we were not there when his remains were interred into that ground and she's never visited; therefore it comforts this mama to know that she can visit now if she so chooses, even if it means she has to follow some protocol. I accepted then as well as now that I was making a choice when the Board of Trustees invited me and my mother in law to have his remains buried there. I was not without understanding that, even while in TWI, the area would not be accessible to me and my girls, simply because of distance. I accepted the invitation because my husband loved those woods, period. Well, there was the ease of dealing with the gypsy life of a TWI person; it did give me security of location at the time. When Doug invited me and my eldest to participate in the court proceedings, that put me in a place of decision making, as well and I chose not to ask my eldest to testify as to her father's death in terms of where he's buried and getting to the area, etc. Additionally, my husband's family was still involved at that time. However,the decision(s) weren't made without a LOT of consideration and I supported Doug 100% and was thankful for someone having the guts to try to facilitate change. Yes, one might suggest that anyone proceeding with legal matters could be looking for publicity, but on the other hand, publicity pointed at this issue did some good. I am not sure how I might have considered Doug's actions differently were I not a widow and mama involved.

It's not like nobody is allowed to go visit the grave sites or whatever they are, twi just wants a heads up. McMullen knew this and would come by every year or something as a publicity stunt. Safety was standing right there waiting for him. He obviously had a bigger plan. He called the Lima news or something the last time. Did anyone see the news episodes? Wasn't he vpw's body guard or something? Could unload an arse woopin'? Don't see how he's that different than the others.

Im not complaining or carrying around any anger about it--just answering the question. I think 1.5 mil is a fairly accurate assessment. To me its just $--I could be better off but I fine and arent cryin about it..... Im certainly glad that I didnt have to "pay" what others paid --with life and limb or serious abuse.. Ham is right. It is/was an extremely shortsighted organization. I gave alot of what I had but due to their system when I was in, I never had much. If they had encouraged personal development or had even a minute amount of graciousness ( yea right) people may have stuck around for much longer or until their retirement years when they'd have some real money to give to an organization

I would pay Billy for doing this since he is not able to work a job. What a way to reinforce a Christ like soul.

Remember the days of the Truancy Officer? Back in my day boys carried pocket knives and duked it out in the play ground. If you got in trouble at school you got in trouble at home. Now, mamas hot foot it to school and want to know what you did to make her baby mad that made him/her misbehave. That is, the parents who care enough to show up or are available. The breakdown of the family unit is the greatest contributing factor for the pathetic state of our education system.

McMullen just wanted attention. Once a wayfer always a wayfer. (for some)

This is a true statement. Except, if the government didn't cause it, then culture did. Either way, it's what the people want.

i disagree with you George, but then I am not there in TX. I have not seen our curriculums here in CO "dumbed down", and I know there is no requirement to pass a kid on to the next level in my school district. We view the students here as LEARNERS rather than boxes to be stuffed with meaningless data dumps. It works well for us. Here, many of the changes in curriculum have been driven by the business community, who want their future employees to be able to think problems through to a resolution, and to work with other employees to get the job done. These changes are in addition to the regular strong math, english and science standards. Can you point me to more than a couple of isolated stories about parent's suing for their kid's self esteem being hurt by a teacher? You speak as though it is a common practice. I have not heard of much of that anywhere, and none in CO. Is that a way of life in the courts for people in TX or something? For the record, I am quite pleased with the education my boys got in their public school years here. I do not think they were a peculiarity. I know many many many wonderful young people who are able to think, solve problems, write well, and participate in and effect change in their community. I thoroughly enjoy spending time with them, working with them, and sitting around talking with them. I am sorry you do not seem to have the same joy of doing that which I do.

which makes me wonder.. why in god's name wouldn't an organization WANT someone to succeed in life along these lines.. if you think about it.. it cost THEM likely @200K in abs per individual, in the long run.. it cost the organization itself countless professional ties.. along the lines of thousands.. in the long run, it cost the organization credibility. In a big way. I have had to explain more than several times how affiliation with a "religious organization" crowded out time for professional development, college.. grad school.. etc etc.. there was a REMOTE possibility that the group would turn into something legitimate.. into what it purported to be.. but it never happened. at the entrance interview I had to the four year university they asked.. "how come you wait so long?" "ever hear of da way?" "why yes.. I have.." I know someone at this university whose remote form of "involvement" cost them more than me.. all I can say is, I think the person didn't see what was coming.. didn't have a clue.. nor should he have.. I think that's where they heard something about the organization..

The government caused the problem by changing teaching standards so that students pupils are no longer required to learn anything. They have to be passed regardless of achievement, because God forbid we should hurt their feelings. States, like Texas, with so-called achievement tests, continually dumb them down, and then the teachers only prep kids for those tests. (I'm generalizing here, of course; there ARE teachers who try to instill a love for learning, but the political deck is stacked against them.) The courts (which are part of the government) encourage this behavior. I haven't read the "College grad sues school" thread, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. As for suing the parents of unruly kids, it's not what I would really like to see. But if people are no longer afraid of parents and teachers, at least they're still afraid of LAWYERS! George

I think Wisconsin tried something like that with attendance not discipline issues. Parents with chronically absent children were somehow fined/sued/neutered - I can't quite remember and certainly can't remember how successful it was.

[quote name=notinKansasanymore' date='29 July 2009 - 11:15 AM' ti mestamp='1248891304' post='471939] And speaking of Cash for Clunkers (see, I told you it's impossible to derail),there is no longer a beat-up, gas-guzzling Wowmobile in the niKa driveway. There's an inexpensive, gets-great-gas-mileage, something-reliable-to-commute-to-the-new-job-mobile. And because of the stimulus plan, we can deduct the state and local sales taxes on it. Interesting week. Wooo-hooooo! Karmic, still thinking about you, Sweet Lady. WOO-HOO indeed! And Karmic, me too!

Never have bought anything from QVC or HSN/C... what a wonderful bunch of kids you have there... and the oldest must be incredibly smart, going to the University of Chicago! :)

Oh... (((((((Karmicdebt))))))), I'm SOOOOOO sorry. It is most understandable that you would feel that way.

Indeed, most, but not all... I certainly was younger than 28, 28 years ago.

Gongrats to you and Chuck on 28 years (tomorrow)! :) 114 here... it's like walking (or running, or bikeriding or driving) through a convection oven. :)

Being a grandpa just seems like it would be about the best thing in the world!

Thanks, Excie!! Thanks, Lifted!! Woo-HOOO, Lifted!! A Grandma? You're getting into the big times, there. You mentioned a "minor obvious change," dare we pry? You are so lucky to be a nearlyGrandma!!! Please let us know when your title is official.

Echo! (I like that word better than "ditto" these days).

I'd take that!

Yes, Happy Valentine's Day to all!

No... I don't know if he posted anything here or not. If he did, he didn't identify himself. I meant at another web site.

Some of us sort of heard from Mike about a year and a half ago... but he didn't have much to say at all... and it looks to have been a one time contact.

Right on!

Honolulu? Did you get to visit with Roz or Lisa?

Well... it's been raining and is cold today. Weather peeps say we won't see the sun until Friday. But I'm still happy... this is the rain we need in order for the spring wildflowers to sprout and come out in all of their wonderful glory! I'll be taking pics of them again by March. :) Just think, if you lived HERE, you wouldn't be looking forward to a national championship football game!

Well, I remember her name and sent you a PM.

niKa... she's been known to visit Tucson.

Maybe SimonZ and me can meet up with you in Tucson this year for a burger and a hug or something! around Christmas time, that is... :)

i do apologize if doug's sacred ground is just about the people at rest there and not the sacredness of vp and all the way ministry stood for....

having no contact with the board members for a couple of years would sound good to me ;)-->but i know that's not what doug is about so he had to pay $175 bucks is that it ? i'm sure the board of dicktators certainly would have liked a better outcome the only thing that i don't like (and i might be wrong on this) is doug's love and reverence for the man of god doctor victor paul wierwille.... i think that's way weird but like i said, i could be wrong, plus it's just my personal opinion