Twinky

Pete: Not at all. The individual paid is an employee of the company. Just look at any small businessman who trades as PlumberInYourTown Ltd, the boss is the no.1 shareholder with 99 shares, his wife owns 1 share and he is the sole employee. Just limiting the individual's personal liability in case anything goes wrong. Sending you a PM. Twinky

It was a power grab, pure and simple. CG's ego is overwhelming. Fruits of his work, however, are the collapse of what was actually entrusted to him - Gartmore. It didn't last long, after the split. Less than 15 years and absolutely nothing was left. Quite possibly if his power grab had succeeded, TWI would have collapsed earlier, too. Or maybe not. Always had my doubts about that document with the signed "confessions". I could at one time see Howard meekly signing it (I'd always thought him very meek to the word until I read some of the posts here on GSC; now I'm not so sure :( ). Could also see Don signing it. Have a difficulty with LCM but he did at one time say he tried to go along with some of CG's points. For all we know, the "apologies" and signatures on the document are all forgeries.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet, I.v) Paraphrased: There are things that science and rationality cannot explain (Horatio's philosophy being a scholarly one) (The above lifted from an internet critique of Shakespeare’s Hamlet) Seems to me that there are things that cannot be explained also in the Bible. My view is that the Bible gives us enough for what we need to run our lives in the here and now. A bit of ancient history, a bit of more modern history (OT), a peep into the future (Revelation), and a lot of stuff about how to live in our time. There is enough to chew on in what is written in the Bible. It doesn’t purport to tell us everything about the universe since … since when? Science is for ever making new discoveries. Things like “black holes” and the “big bang” and other enormous and significant astronomical “discoveries” and theories have been made in comparatively recent times. Black holes have only been speculated about since the late 60s and Big Bang theory just a little later, early 70s, yet everyone “knows” about them. Black holes and Big Bang theory are now accepted by all astronomers and physicists, but 100 years ago, who would have a clue? There is so much available to know about. We simply do not have the comprehension or understanding to grasp more than a fragment of it. So God has kindly written us a book so that we can know sufficient. It contains all that pertains to life and godliness that we need to know, now. (That would be an “all” with distinction.) If the Bible had contained more, people would have screwed it up even more (even more denominations). Without making any criticism of any denomination or group: right now on this earth we have people calling themselves Christians and following OT-style, gospel-style, grace and Revelation ways of living and all convinced that is the way they/we should be living - or even, that is the administration (excuse the Wayspeak) in which we are living. Happily we do not have a Biblical “outer space” way of living (well, some folk are “out there” but that’s not what I mean). There’s a lot of stuff that has happened and that is to happen that we simply cannot know about right now. Astronomy and other sciences cannot supply the answers and the Bible is silent. This is a most interesting and not irrelevant thread (and we do have the privilege of discussing it! TWI had no answers, none obvious, anyway). It’s clear that God is only one of many spirit beings but where they came from or how they came to exist is far from clear. It’s also clear that spirit beings have what we call free will, but maybe for a spirit being it is something different. Much more than that remains to be learned well in the future. Hard to sort out the figures of speech from what is literally meant, as some of WordWolf’s posts have indicated. We can speculate all we like about where the Devil came from, and how he/it got to be as evil as he/it is. Perhaps God omitted that bit from the Bible on purpose. Just like there were many things that were hidden from OT believers but are now made known in our administration. By the by, Allan’s analogy of the Black Thread sounds just about right. The secret of his success is the secrecy of his moves, and all that. Great thread, this. Thought-provoking.

Taking care of your body is CP3 - did your husband have you running around outside at 6 am and doing press-ups? But good on you for keeping yourself so fit and well. It seems to me that JEALOUSY is such a big part of TWI's problem. There is a LOT of material on GSC from both men and women documenting the lousy attitude to women. They honour with their mouths but their hearts are far from it. Every year, women seem to have got more and more put upon. Don't know if it is any better now with Rosalie at the head. I cannot imagine what or why women should be thought so badly of. We aren't still paying for Eve's deliberate mistake are we? Let's not forget Adam's deliberate choice also to dine where he shouldn't!! I had many OT examples of poor female reliability thrown at me. Conveniently forgotten were the "good" women and the poor OT male examples. Jealous? Yeah!!

Pink Lady: He beat you up? So much for walking in love and loving you as Christ loved the church. Only one remaining suggestion - GET OUT NOW before he does more serious damage. TWI will not help you or support you or take your side against him. Don't waste your time. Get to your lawyer and file against him. Make this your first job on Monday. Then you can get an injunction kicking him out of the home and letting you back in it. DO NOT PUT UP WITH PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. GET OUT NOW. God bless and protect you.

There used to be quite a few TWI folk in Southampton. Maybe the Moynihans aren't doing so bad there. Hard luck, Southampton. Oh yeah, and they also go to other cities to try to "win back" those who have already escaped. Sad.

Having fairly recently escaped from where you are, here are a few things that I found helped me: * Get some other version of the Bible, not KJV, and read that. Try a more modern language version. * In the editorial section on GSC, I read everything I could find. I was completely shocked and found it very very hard to believe. Then the reality began to sink in. I could begin to acknowledge some of those red flags that had been there, not necessarily about the matters raised in the Editorial section, but other things too. * Especially helpful was the short Editorial item about spiritual abuse. * I read a book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” which has been much recommended on GSC. It was as though someone had peered inside TWI and was writing about it. But it was originally written quite some time before all the really bad stuff hit the fan at TWI. * Read the other stories on GSC. You will find you were not alone in whatever you suffered. You don’t need to reply – just read and realise that what happened to you was part of a wide pattern. You will then begin to realise that you personally are not to blame for what happened to you and your family. You'll probably find that some of those things you questioned have already been discussed at length. * Find some decent people to fellowship with – they can be exWayers or perhaps from some other denomination. Learn to recognise loving kindness and learn to accept it, too. Just because other Christians weren’t a part of TWI does not mean they don’t know God and don’t know what being kind to one another means! (If they are exWay they will especially understand your occasional crazy ideas.) Learn to laugh at silly things. It’s okay to ask questions and ask what other Christians believe. * Try not to think too badly of those who have hurt you, especially your husband. He was/is a victim too. Have compassion, and don’t be afraid to laugh at the daft things (note, things – not people). God has a great sense of humour and you just might find him laughing at the same things (maybe it stops him getting truly furious too soon) . Stick around and you will find lots of helpful advice and some new friends.

That's what the Witnessing Cards thread is about :) Not quite sure where "blame the victim" sits in that (perhaps "promotes prosperity and health"?). I know of others who have been attacked and have been asked where their believing has broken down. You're not alone in that, Lindyhopper. Unfortunately.

If it's "wonderful", where and what are the "wonders"? And the signs and miracles, come to that.

Well, I thought some of you might have liked Teaches how to prey effectively as there's been a lot of evidence of that shown on GSC!

I vote for Mstar and Allan's posts, but how about: "Ali finds something to complain about when the wind suddenly changed direction and his face got stuck"

What does a Wolf want with a fieldmouse? Not a very filling breakfast!

It’s the TWI anniversary. Way Disciples may be sent out. Don’t know if they still have witnessing cards, but here are the little sayings from PFAL witnessing and sign-up cards (with literals according to usage). Establishes and maintains a positive attitude MEANS Establishes and maintains a [positively] terrified attitude Makes life meaningful MEANS Makes life meaningless OR MAYBE Makes life meeting-ful Overcomes worry and fear MEANS Fills your life with worry and fear EXPANDED: … about things you had no idea existed beforehand Promotes prosperity and health MEANS Promotes organisational prosperity at your expense OR MAYBE Requires health at all times Explains apparent Bible contradictions MEANS Introduces idiosyncratic Bible interpretations Develops more harmony in the home MEANS Develops disharmony in the home OR MAYBE Develops more harmony in the home by encouraging you to throw out loved ones Enables you to separate truth from error MEANS Enables you to separate truth from practical application EXPANDED Enables you to separate Biblical principle from practical application Disciplines the mind by believing MEANS Discourages the body by overwhelming tiredness Teaches how to pray effectively MEANS Teaches how to prey effectively Would anyone like to add their own Literals? Are there any volunteers to accompany the Way Disciples to explain these principles to the people they witness to? …Are there any volunteers to witness to the Way Disciples??

I think VPW, yes, even he, said in PFAL but maybe somewhere else, that he didn't know about them but trusted in a merciful God. We're not just talking about people in our day and time either. What about people like say Aborigines in Australia or native Americans deep in the Rockies or people in Japan - 1000 years ago? (I suggest these places only by way of example because I'm not aware of reports of early Christian missionaries reaching those places at that time.) Or more recent, or longer ago? Presumably some of them were good by the standards of their time; some had an innate Godlike goodness; some were outright vile. The Samaritan woman's example doesn't quite apply. She had some idea, but not correct (she "knew not" what she worshiped). Glad I am not the one who has to decide. Bramble: For the avoidance of doubt, I am not making your point for you. You have had the opportunity to hear about JC meet his Father. You make your own decision and choose your own path, and believe what you want to believe. Not looking for a fight here.

Safari! Your photo!!

Sunesis: That's the way I see it, too. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. Different if someone has never heard or had the opportunity to hear. It does make me wonder sometimes when "heard" really is "heard" ie to the point of understanding and really making a decision, rather than just accepting a sort of community status quo. It probably took some of us here on GSC a long time to make up our minds before we truly made the decision for ourselves. We might even have gone to church as children. Sometimes I think maybe he hasn't heard yet because the clutter and noise of "religion" is getting in the way. But then that clutter and noise was there for us, too, and we heard... Eagle: Yes, "the marriage relationship is a union of christian principles.....there should be some factor that gives that marriage glue" and that's what I want - and can't have with this man. I want that special ingredient (God) that will give marriage real zest; not just a marriage that's average (or even good, by worldly standards). He even knows I'd marry him like a shot if he changed his thinking (got to admire him in a way; he also really wants to marry me but won't "pretend" just to get what he wants). Bramble: It's not set up for people to fail. God does not want us to fail, he wants us to be successful. There are many ways to live a life full of good works on earth. Many religions teach such things. People who live by such tenets may have what they perceive as a peaceful and fulfilled life. There are not many roads, in fact only one, that leads to a full and rewarding life with God and his son JC. They don't live in Chicago! Well, I'll just keep praying for this nice man. He appears pleased to "dwell" with me (we don't live together) and one day perhaps he will see and hear - and do. Then he can carry on as before but get eternal rewards for it. No-brainer, really, but he thinks he will be losing something!

After getting myself M&A'd by the people who were supposed to love me etc etc blah blah and in deepest misery and depression and all alone (the tiny group of believers (?) had all left and gone to another city), I realised that I needed to find some thing or some one to care about. I prayed about this and a small black cat - now quite a large cat ("Twinky") - came my way. After that, I needed a person to love and care about. A very kind, loving man came my way. He has been kind, honest, never says a negative, thoughtful, generous and giving without counting, and most of all uncondemnatory, to me and gave me a safe place where I could start to heal my seriously damaged thoughts. He doesn't believe and thinks God is - well, he doesn't think of God at all. He doesn't believe the things I do but let me talk to him a little about them anyway. He's all the things that Ephesians says believers ought to be to one another. At such a desperate time in my life, without his kindness I probably would be in need of psychiatric treatment. It's just how he is. It's innate, not manifesting from the love of God in his life. But he's all the things that some so-called believers (some of them in great particular) are not. It troubles me that someone so kind, thoughtful and considerate, whom many believers could learn much from in practical ways, is excluded from the kingdom of heaven - and so many selfish, rude, lying, hurtful people get in (not many rewards when they get there, perhaps). We don't get into heaven by works. He hasn't confessed Jesus as lord in his life - after looking at some negative internet press about TWI and also stuff about other religions (eg, the RC child abuse scandals), he has backed off completely and truly does not want to know. Works is all he has, but they are from a good and loving heart. Don't know what to think about this - just know God makes rules but is not unfair. Anybody out there who can offer any comment? Kit: sorry, I've hijacked your topic somewhat.

Must be genetic. Something to do with the bags under the eyes, perhaps?

Too right, Bagpipes. That's if you were even worthy of contempt - you might recall sometimes people were made to feel unworthy even of that. (Self)Condemnation is a bedfellow of the contempt which is described. All this from a "ministry" that was keen to tell us that there is therefore no condemnation... and then proceeded to put so many of its people exactly there. I'm very thankful for GSC and its denizens, wise or wacky!

There's still a Corps? There's still "outreach"? Hay, any chance of Grease Spotters witnessing to the Way Disciples?? LOL

Thanks, Bowtwi, not quite the same photo that I saw, but quite clearly the same idiot.

Inspiring; never give up. Lotta Biblical principles, if you want to take it that way. Two people working together will succeed, etc. God will make a way (etc) even if you are stuck at the bottom of a deep crevasse. But most of all, never give up. Joe Simpson resumed mountain climbing when he finally recovered from his knee injury. But now he has taken up microlighting. He still doesn't believe in God.

Just for a bit of total madness, I was at a conference the other day and the head of the Legal Dept of Random House UK was one of the speakers. There has been a court case in the UK where the authors of HB,HG are suing Dan Brown. The speaker told the delegates that Dan Brown and Lee Teabing and ... (sorry,what are their real names??) are, by a roundabout way and through multiple acquisitions, both published by Random House. So in effect it has been RH suing RH for breach of copyright. All deny it was a publicity stunt.

Article in the local freebie daily newspaper (usually quite good at reporting): "Stuntman Dong Changshen, 44, pulls a 1.5 tonne car using hooks attached to his eyelids in the Chinese city of Changchun yesterday." Accompanying the words is a photo, apparently taken over the head and looking along the chest, of some guy with hooks attached to his lower eyelids (and showing the pink of his inner eyelids) and attached to the hooks is a rope leading to a VW. :blink: :blink: Fuel prices must be pretty bad in China...

<_< :( :unsure: