oldiesman

Eagle, I clicked your link and saw a small statement that might need revision, regarding the unforgivable sin: I am unaware that VPW ever taught that the seed boys get "unholy spirit." What was taught and memorialized in the syllabus was "the seed of Satan". Just like one would receive the seed of Christ, another would receive the seed of Satan. Whatever that seed is seems vague now. I never really understood it, honestly. I think the teaching developed into something entirely different than "spirit" or even "unholy spirit". In fact wasn't it LCM who taught it was some kind of a physical organ or transmitter in the body (as told in athletes)?

BTW, if you will send me a complimentary copy of your book, I will read it and give you a detailed critique from one who doesn't hate Wierwille. :o :)

I think that would be better. If you can do it in a way that doesn't get personal, then the debate would be about ideas and not people.

Mike, you made an agreement to limit your posting? You dirty dawg you. :o :D

Can you share your specific incident(s) with all the details so folks can understand you better? Without specific facts I'm unable to make a judgment about the situation you speak of one way or the other.

yes that is about right.

Waysider: you seem perturbed about something. here is my response: (1) when did I ever say that Wierwille did no wrong? At times he was swell. At times, he wasn't. (2) who said I have a "knight in shining armor" image of Wierwille? (3) I never suggested that he never publically taught that "we(TWI believers ) were the chosen ones and had replaced the Jews as God's people." But now that you mention it, Wierwille taught that all born again believers are "God's Chosen People" and he didn't believe that today's Jews were God's Chosen People because he didn't believe the Jews were the biblical Judeans. Even so, I also think he believed that today's Jews are just like everybody else, body and soul before getting born again. I got the impression that he taught that they have no special connection with God or immunity from death resulting from being unsaved. All of this does not mean he hated Jews. It means he saw them just like everyone else... in need of a Lord and Saviour.

Don't know what to tell you other than I have mixed emotions at present.

I don't make that connection. I believe a person can believe in Revisionist thought, without hating the Jews. The Revisionists believe that the Holocaust, or various parts of it, was not true. That belief is not necessarily equal to or means that one hates Jews. It "can" mean that, but it would depend on other factors too. Its just not fair to label someone as hating a whole race/religion of people because he may have different views on what occurred in the past.

As I see it, he certainly was not anti-Semetic, because he loved Jewish folks enough to invite them into twi. Racists and Jew haters dont want to spend time with those they hate. Hitler wanted the Jews removed from Germany. When someone can prove that Wierwille wanted the Jews removed from twi, then you can call him anti-Semetic. Until then, it's a bum rap. Similarly, he wasn't pro Nazi. Nazism is fascism, which is a governmental totalitarian regime. VPW didn't believe in totalitarianism. He believed in the American form of government, a free enterprise system, and limited Republic. He was proud to be an American and had great respect for those in the armed forces who fought against Fascism in WW II.

A few months back, I saw the following 60 minutes segment which was quite moving to me, Hitler's Secret Archive

That bird had INTENT. After he enters the establishment, notice how he looks around to check if anyone's looking. And after he leaves, his steps become swifter. He knew what he was doing!

I don't think you were mean but you seemed a bit snobbish. I would love to speak with JW to share with them the truth I learned in TWI that Christians are saved by Gods grace, through faith; not by works. JW believe in salvation by works and maybe they won't accept it now, but maybe someday they will. Then I would proceed to praise God for all the scriptures we do agree on. Jesus Christ is not God, dead are dead, homosexuality is sin, etc etc. There's plenty to discuss without being condescending.

JOY JOY JOY

Well I don't want to miss the big picture, that's for sure. I can't speak of what's going on today but in my 19 years in twi, I didn't notice twi teaching that "Jesus used the law of believing to rise from the dead". As a matter of fact, I never even thought of that until you brought this topic up. Faith is ok with me. :)

That's not how I read the above verses. I don't see contrition as being a requirement for man to man forgiveness. But the scripture says if one has ought against any, if one has a problem with any, one has a complaint, a problem. Doesn't say in those verses one way or the other whether the came asking for your forgiveness. But it stills says to forgive, otherwise, your sins will not be forgiven. Man does not always express contrition. Maybe the man is dead, or blinded, or tricked, or fooled, or walking in darkness, or otherwise can't or doesn't see. It must be a big deal to God to have it written in those threatening terms.

Doojable, its FRIDAY. FRIDAY. the day before the WEEKEND. How about the following verses? if these are not demanding (or commanding), or at least a statement of God's heart and what he wants us to do, I don't know what would be: Mar 11:25 ¶ And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

As I see it he wouldn't have followed through with the cross if he didn't believe.

Yes, I cannot. But Jesus can, and did.

Good morning Tom. It's FRIDAY. :o Have a great day. :)

But the fact that the person is "repenting" seven times, or 70 x 7 means, to me, that the person is not really repentant at all. Yet forgiveness is still God's desire for mankind. As I see it the whole point of the parable is to understand the heart of God in wanting people to forgive others, as God has forgiven people. This is where God's grace and mercy comes to play. It's not always the formula "you must come to me and ask forgiveness".

From what I've seen in the past, it all depends on the spouses attitude and how they deal with it. For instance, if your wife respects and loves you anyway despite you having no desire to stay in twi; then it is a workable situation. At least it was in "those good old days." I don't blame twi for wanting you both in there, naturally they will see that as the best possible arrangement. But this is one of those situations where *you* have to be in control of the situation and not let others control *you*.

Bear in mind that the corps was a training program, and as such, one would come to expect some bullying from time to time. If one can't take some bullying, criticism and hard knocks, one may not have the right attitude. "its the stones in the brook that make it sing" ... its all attitude. Not saying that you didn't have that attitude, just commenting...

70 x 7 is what convinced me that forgiveness is always possible, despite the unrepentant.

I have asked trinitarians this question: Do you believe God raised Jesus from the dead? or, do you believe that Jesus, being God, raised Himself from the dead? Haven't gotten an answer to that one yet. :) The bible says Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights so while he was dead, he could not believe, obviously. However, Jesus did believe God's word and promise that the son of man would rise from the dead. (Mark 8:31) So whether you call that "faith" or "law of believing" is pure semantics. He did believe to receive. Believing was a requirement. If he didn't believe that he was the son of man and that God would raise him from the dead, I can't see how it could have happened or how he could even fulfill his messianic mission.