oldiesman

I think VP's motive was economic and political. Which by the way was probably a stupid move because it was The Word the Word and nothing but the Word ... But yeah, I don't think he liked that the U.S. was (and still is) yearly shelling out $3-4 billion on Israel. He believed the Holocaust was used as a pretext to do that. " They are perpetual victims so let's keep shelling out billions for them. " And so forth.

So someone accused you of believing Revisionist information because you simply taught in the offshoot. The offshoot itself didn't even teach it. Amazing! Thats really cruel. Yes VPW had books in the Way Bookstore for the longest time about Revisionist thought and theories. The Myth of the Six Million, and the Hoax of the Twenthieth Century are two that were there.

Golly, I wasn't thinking evil of that mother; all I saw was the teaching concept.

On the positive side, yes. On the negative side, no. I think that's where VP could have gotten it wrong.... i.e., "The Law Of Believing on the Negative Side". It doesn't make sense to me and as I look at the scripture I don't see where Jesus taught this...

Yes that's the way I remember he taught it. But what kind of fear and how did it actually work? Negative thought waves of doubt and worry transmitted through the atmosphere? Or, not ever teaching her kid to cross properly because she always thought and wanted him to be picked up? I can say the same about YOUR interpretation. VP didn't say that fear was "negative thought waves transmitted through the atmosphere" that caused calamities, did he? That was how YOU took it. I didn't take it that way. Dan, that wasn't VP I was quoting, it was Groucho Marx. Look at the quote again...

Dan, I think you misquoted me. I believe I said this: This quote is from PFAL and to the best of my recollection, VPW made the above comment in the context of believing God's promises in the Word. Was not spoken in the context of bad things, like disease and death, etc. What killed the little boy? Obviously the car that hit him. Look, this was a teaching tool of VPW. I can see the point he was making about fear and the way I took at that one was , the mother was always afraid to have the child walk home alone, so she always met him, and never taught him the correct way to cross the street. I do not believe that she transitted her fear through the atmosphere and it killed the boy.

This is exactly the way I feel about VPW but some say he wasn't qualified to help me. HE DID IT, HE GOT THE JOB DONE. Qualified or no.

Dan, I don't understand what you're saying here. God made it happen when the mother's believing was reversed?

I do not distort what VPW said and I am not crucifying Dr. Juedes. But I do strongly critique some of his statements. That is what the forums are here for. And if I were ignoring almost everything he writes, I wouldn't bother responding to some of his written comments because I'd be ignoring them. Some of the stuff he writes is good. :)

There are contradictions and errors in PFAL. It isn't God Breathed, after all. :) But it isn't atheistic either.

I am here to express my opinions; no more, no less. You are entitled to believe what you will, but at least one difference I can tell you, is that I am not under any allusions that what I post is part of some righteous mission to expose evil and help people get out of bondage. As opposed to some posters, who portray themselves in this manner thereby making justification for their own continued hatred of VP and TWI.

Fear brings results. In the case of the mother, it caused her to fail to teach her child how properly to cross the street. That is the way I interpret it. How do you interpret it that her fear was transmitted through the air and caused the accident?

Oh please. Many folks thought about this years ago, way before the message boards.

I don't recall VP saying "the laws of the universe brought this to pass". To the best of my recollection he said "God set the laws of the universe in place" so he was acknowledging God setting up the rules and design. This is far from atheistic as Dr. Juedes has asserted.

He chose to emphasize that it was the fear in the heart and life of the mother. He wasn't condemning the mother; he was emphasizing the fear she had, and taught it that way. Her fear is what caused the accident. Yes the driver may have had some responsibility; on the other hand, what if the child just didn't look and jumped in front of the car and the driver could not get out of the way? Fear brings results. In this case, one of the results was the mother not teaching the child how properly to cross the street. THAT is the point of the teaching; not that the mother was under blame or condemnation.

John, thanks for sharing that. Yes I see that and have similar thoughts about why he wrote "Christians Should be Prosperous" in the sense that he observed the churches of his time begging. He looked upon his brethren acting poverty stricken and downtrodded, begging for this and that and thought it could be better, Christians shouldn't have to beg. Perhaps that was one of his motives; a desire to get folks out of the begging routine and into God's principles.

Is this a hypothetical prophesy? I think this statement is crazy. Where VPW is concerned, I think Dr. Juedes is dedicated to thinking evil and now resorts to hypotheticals; a sure sign of being unreasonable. On every other issue of his life, Dr. Juedes is probably quite reasonable and admirable.

I honestly don't know or heard of anyone who "used their believing to do good or evil while God stood by as a spectator." Perhaps in theory that may have happened, but golly, I think twi folks were more knowledgable and loving than that.

One of the errors of Dr. Juedes terminology is mentioned there. He says Christians and non Christians "operate" it to do good or to do evil. I can't find anyplace in the teachings where Christians "operate" it. Note the exact wording from the syllabus: It says these things are operated that way, they are designed that way; NOT THAT PEOPLE OPERATE THEM!!! People don't operate doubt worry and fear any more so than they operate confidence trust and faith. Capiche.??

Abigail, thanks for sharing that. Unfortunately, very unfortunately, one of the errors that crept in twi was to think evil about someone when evil happened to them. i.e., "you weren't believing".. I think this was a practical error that crept in twi, even in "those good old days" and should have been corrected with love and compassion. Sometimes it was, but often it wasn't. I believe this practical error was NOT from the doctrine. I know we had been taught that practical error comes from doctrinal error, but I think this one came from the adversary, from "thinking evil" when someone got sick or hurt. It was like a knee-jerk reaction to think evil. The leaders should have realized this and dealt with it with reproof and correction. Sometimes they did, but not often enough. As I'm getting older I'm seeing that folks , especially Christians, should not think evil about those who do not believe. Walk in love as Jesus did, love can replace this easily if folks will just do it.

Victor Paul Wierwille

No Wordwolf, Dr. Juedes wrote an entire paper basically singling out one of Wierwille's teachings, "the law of believing" and condemning it without taking other information Wierwille taught that would augment and explain the teaching and how it worked and why and how God was involved. It's like taking it all out of its context and wanting to show that we practiced witchcraft. What a sham! Dr. Juedes' false accusations are appalling and a sham.

Dan, yes I think some good points are made. Not everything that happens comes from "the law of believing." But the accusation by Dr. Juedes that God wasn't involved and wasn't needed in our lives is a false one, and derogatory to many believers, and simply does not reflect what occurred. For example remember VP saying in PFAL that "you say it, you believe it, and God will bring it to pass." What to pass? What God has promised. We learned in PFAL that what God has promised, he is able to perform (Romans 4:20-25). Being fully persuaded of that, and believing that, is not putting God in a box and out of the equation; it is believing his Word will come to pass. It is trusting God that his Word is true. Goes back to this basic belief: "The Word of God is the Will of God" God is very much in the mix; God is there to honor his word and those that expect Him to are not leaving him out of the picture.

Dr. Juedes wrote the following: That is simply not true. PFAL was a series, the foundational class being the foundation. That being said, it wasn't the whole story. When one studies the advanced class materials, and B.G. Leonards writings from whence a considerable amount of the materials came, one discovers quickly that God is very much involved in the operations of the manifestations. Dr. Juedes accusation on this point is a sham. He didn't do his homework. Or, deliberately left out information he knew about. For example it is interesting to note that Dr. Juedes doesn't mention anything about B.G. Leonard in his "Wierwille's Sources" chapter.

Hi Another Dan, may I call you Dan? I respect your POV too. Yes there are things I disagree with in PFAL. Raf did a good job on the 10 practical errors of PFAL. I can see most if not all of them being errors but I haven't read them in a while. Also, tithing in "Christians Should be Prosperous" has some questionable points in there. I'm sure there are other issues. Although I must vehemenently disagree with Dr. Juedes and some posters on the current issues being discussed. I think the word "law" in the "law of believing" is being used by some posters and Dr. Juedes to accuse brethren of not abiding in Him, not making their prayers, "prayers of faith" in Him but ones of the "power of the mind", seeking something without God, like as if it were witchcraft. I do not believe this and repudiate this accusation. I think it's a misrepresentation of the way things were taught and applied.