oldiesman

Perhaps, perhaps not, depending on the facts in the case. It has to meet certain criteria to be a legitimate rape, and the way some posters flaunt the word rape on the forum, yeah, I'd want to hear both sides, before I make a judgment. Do I have the word MORON printed on my forehead, believing without question all allegations of rape against someone? Do you believe everything you read on the internet, without question?

I never called anyone a liar outright, but, I have disbelieved some posters based upon their fanciful allegations and unbelievable sob stories. I find some allegations very hard to believe, especially coming from anonymous posters who have an unrelenting accusatory mindset against all that is twi. If the conversation were face to face with someone I knew and trusted, it would probably be an entirely different story, and probably quite enlightening.

Anybody can allege anything. To be fair, observants need more proof, need to hear both sides, for something to be believable. Why bother having lawsuits at all? Just accuse someone of rape based upon the words of the one party, and that's that...

Mark, With all the fanciful allegations of rape and how loosely it seems to be used here, it is difficult for me just to take someone's word for it. You are free to PM me if you want to fill me in, and all information will be kept confidential. People can state what they will, but a rape needs to be proven in a court of law with all sides testifying under oath and subject to cross examination. Until then, I believe the proper term to use especially on the net is "alleged rape" or "alleged rapist".

Another thought that cross my mind is if someone felt they really wanted/needed an apology from Craig, they could take the first step, and make an attempt to have a discussion with him and explain where/how they were hurt and see what Craig's response is. To me, that is love... to reprove and correct. The response from Craig might be surprising. Maybe he would show remorse. The man is still alive, so now would be the time to confront him with this if someone feels the need to.

When I had questions, I wrote to hq, and always got an answer. The answers weren't always what I wanted to hear;.... but I got an answer nevertheless...

That is true, at least for me.

Adam did that and look what happened ... got us all in the soup. Oops sorry.

I don't start threads I jump on them like a dust mite.

Just trying to make sense and get things straight in my own head, why it is we are discussing this and how it relates to our beliefs. If we assume that Wierwille and Martindale and others did not repent of their sins when they were cognizant of them, what does that actually mean for OUR lives?

One other thing I'd like to mention: If Wierwille's and Martindale's and others' characters are such that they had or have no remorse for their sins, then that are their characters, and have little or nothing to do with the doctrine taught, which stands or falls on its own.

I think that was one of the points Sogwap was making but I could be wrong.

We don't know what if any remorse or amends Paul made to a family who he destroyed. We don't know, unless there are biblical references and I don't see any specific. I believe that was the original point of the comparison made, and not showing remorse and making amends doesn't mean the person isn't sorry or remorseful and doesn't mean the godly fruit that came from the spirit is counterfeit.

We still don't know whether he asked God for forgiveness, or what exactly is in his heart. If he really is the mean monster that some believe, it would be good for us to be praying for him.

I actually think exactly the opposite in most cases. While in twi, I believe many of us were going about doing the Word to the best we can, some of us going WOW, some Way Corps, some just doing the best being Joe believer in twig. While in twi, we were helping move the Word and thereby blessing folks with what we believe would help them. Contrast that to what I am doing now and I would say what I am doing right now is "me" centered. I am concerned about my own happiness. Maybe you are too? Hey that's nothing to be ashamed of as God wants us to be happy. But I refuse to disparage my or anyone else's twi involvement unless I know for sure...

And the point is what? That he lost his salvation? That he'll burn in hell? I still believe he's born again because of God's promise and God does not lie. I know that belief conflicts with the religion of my youth.

For crying out loud, Jesus himself had to come down and knock Paul over the head and get him to stop persecuting. Pauls intentions were not good and pure. They certain were zealous. When Paul was consenting to Stephens death, what Paul did was not pure and good. Golly even I see this. Talk about whitewashing someone's sins. But hey when it comes to Wierwille and Martindale, there is no mercy.

Actually Radar the topic is whether Paul apologized, and the answer we don't know.

Can you cite some examples?

Do you KNOW that Dr. Wierwille and Craig didn't ask God for forgiveness? Do you KNOW they weren't sorrowful for their sins?

Freud, I feel compelled to pipe in here and say that Craig never raped any woman, as far as I know. If he did, you can be sure he'd be in jail. The website that Belle referenced was started by the husband of a woman who at one time was an employee of TWI, and Craig approached this employee for sex, and the woman didn't say no, like some others did. She claimed in court papers that she "couldn't say no", a statement that I do not believe, and a statement that was never proven in a court of law. Some people falsely call what Craig did rape, but I don't believe it ... I call it sexual harassment. Be that as it may, folks are entitled to be represented correctly, even Craig Martindale.

I believe it is a matter of individual decision and contemplation. Not having had a wooden or silver cross around, didn't mean (or doesn't now mean) I disrespect or belittle the cross Christ bore.

Relax Rascal. Folks are entitled to their opinions, even folks who don't agree with yours.

You won't get attacked by me. Good post...

Golly that's for sure. CK thanks for being honest and sharing your opinions. It's obvious some folks just won't tolerate differing opinions...