waysider

Geeze This is the same kind of logic found in the old joke, "all those not here, raise your hands."

I strongly disagree that it was "common knowledge" back in the 1970's. In fact, the four crucified work that he plagiarized was used (by PFAL instructors, per direct instructions from HQ) to demonstrate that someone else had independently and coincidentally reached the same conclusion . We now know that there was nothing coincidental about it at all. It was deliberate. Your insistence that God told him to "borrow" this from the original source proves it was not coincidental but deliberate. You stated: It was in the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that Dr supposedly got "divine dictation" as to what to write. And yet, you had just finished stating that his claim to fame was that God told him what to copy and even gave him the specific order in which to present it. I personally resent your constant implications that my memory (or that of many others here) must be defective. My memory is just fine, thank you very much. You're not the only person here who sat through this "class" time and time and time again. Plagiarism is not only a very big deal, it's against the law. But I suppose you rationalize that by assuming Wierwille was above the law. Even the fictional character, Harold Hill (The Music Man) was painfully aware he was not above the law with his own con games.

So now I suppose your spin will be that God was actually the author and he just lent it to Bullinger, Leonard, Stiles, etc., making it fair game for anyone, including Wierwille, to copy and use as they saw fit. Why did God bother with all these "middle men", Mike, when He theoretically could have cut Wierwille in on a wholesale deal? The man was a snake in the grass, just waiting to lurch out and pounce on his prey.

You can tap dance around it all you want, Mike. I have heard that tape several times. He carries on and on about himself and his vision to build the business. It's like a sales pitch to invest in an ISO. (Initial Stock Offering) "Get in on the bottom floor, folks, this venture is going to be big." If I recall correctly, I don't think he even cited or quoted one scripture that night. What kind of "sermon" is that? It was plain and simple preemptive obviation. It's a text book example of how we were taught to do it at Public Explanation meetings. He patronized the audience, backed up the hearse so they could smell the roses, and obviated what he anticipated to be possible objections. Whether it was in front of 10 people or a thousand is irrelevant. He stated these things in front of an audience and preserved them for posterity by having them recorded. That indicates to me that he viewed his presentation to be more than a fleeting one-time sermon. What is extremely relevant is that, at the time he made those statements, he was fully aware that he had already committed plagiarism. (past tense) Preemptive damage control.

Mike These aren't disclaimers. These are obviations to the skepticism he knew would be inevitable if and when people discovered his plagiarism. Guess where I learned this clever trick? Yeah, in The Way Ministry. Witnessing and Undershepharding if I remember correctly. The way it works is you bring up an anticipated objection and then address it before the other party has an opportunity to bring it up themselves. Obviate http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obviation edited On second thought, maybe we were taught that in Fellow Laborers. Maybe one of the other FLO remember that. It probably would have been the year that Howie Y. was there.

Mike said: I think you're leaving out a few things. At that time in the early 70's Dr was very open about not being original in his writing, and he was even quoted in Elena's book as having said so. We've seen that written quote posted here on this thread as well as a similar one in the posted transcript of the 1965 tape (later) titled "Light Began to Dawn." I myself heard him disclaim originality several times back then. He did claim, and in rather clear terms, that his guidance from God was mostly in what to accept and what to reject from his teachers. He did not hide his teachers' work from us at all, like your "secret compartment" paragraph might to some uninformed readers seem to be alluding to. I will add here that THE ORDER in which he gave us these materials was also guided by God. He put it together in a certain order that was best for us. ********************************************** I hope you're joking if you consider that "hard evidence".

Such as?

Advise from a man who had no clue, whatsoever, how to honor his own marriage vows. His marriage would be the absolute last prototype I would ever try to use as a pattern for my own.

Just my opinion I think if he really wanted to address the issue, he would have come here and done so long ago.

Nice catch, Twinky.

Why do birds suddenly appear--------------------------?

Unless they are renting on a month-to-month basis and paying in advance, they have a financial obligation, otherwise known as a "debt". ( IIRC, Lincoln Park is in New Jersey)

Here is another program with similar goals. http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/visio...recycling.shtml

The Bomber Midnight Man

Which childhood dream have you accomplished/done? I made it to adulthood.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone needed a colon cleanse when flax seeds were in everything we ate.

OSAGE ORANGE aka: Horse apples or Monkey Balls Keep a few of these under your pillow and cousin Agnes is sure to seek companionship elsewhere.

I think The Way should be considered at least partly responsible for some of the decisions we made, such as the decision to go WOW or Corps etc. They did, after all, provide the information that helped people, in part, to make those decisions. That information was not always forthcoming with the real facts, deceptive, in other words. For example, I went into Fellow Laborers because the program was promoted as a way to study The Book of Acts, in depth, for two years, and then return to our home areas as more capable leaders. It never happened. The academic aspect of Fellow Laborers was abysmal. That has always been one of my biggest disappointments with the program. Yes, it was my decision to go into the program but I based that decision on flawed information they provided.

It might be the first time you've heard of it but it's not the only time it happened. (With similar outcomes, I might add.)

Had a St. Peter's Cream Stout the other day. (On the house/ way outside my budget these days) Very smooth and a pleasure to drink A tad bit on the bitter side but I actually prefer my stout to be that way. When I hit the Lotto---------

Twinky I understand where you're coming from. The original question, however, was in reference to the program, itself. "how successful was the WOW program after all is said and done?" Like you, I'm sure there are probably many people who had positive individual experiences. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was negating that.

ROA "72 was used for Public Ex.'s. We weren't supposed to be enjoying it. We were supposed to be speaking in tongues and "believing" for the suckers guests to sign "the green card" after the film was over, while refreshments were being served.

Bud Morgan made Rock Of Ages, '72. Don't know if he made another one.

As if it wasn't bad enough that a bunch of Christian "missionaries" were boinkin' each other, it was sometimes used as a deal closer to get people to sign "the green card". Using sexual favors as an enticement to garner compensation, I think that might constitute prostitution.

A terrorist abducted a bus filled with accordion players. He threatened to release one an hour unless his demands were met.