waysider

There were no witnesses to the claims CG made in POP, other than VP, who can't respond to them. RD's account, on the other hand, was witnessed by many people, including, but not limited to, his own family. Many years ago (late 1970's) a close friend confided in me that he had been confronted at his own front door by thugs from The Way who made it quite clear it was in his best interest to desist in speaking out against the organization. I believed then, and still believe, he was telling me the truth. At the time, I thought there must be some really profound or spiritual reason for the incident. Now it is clear to me that they were nothing more than lackeys, enforcers sent to do the bidding for their boss. They were the REAL" foot soldiers", blindly following senseless orders to insure the success and sate the avarice of their Commander-In-Chief, VPW.

So, was this the only part of JeffSjo's post that troubled you?

What facts are you having trouble understanding? R.D. has given very detailed personal information that recounts his experiences as he and TWi parted ways. Is that not enough for you? If you're not clear on the details, I'm sure you know how to correspond with him directly. Or, was it the statement regarding VP and his daughters? (I will point out that JeffSjo had the details stated inaccurately but not enough to change the essence of the matter.) Several people have testified that they were personally present when VP expounded on how he fondled his daughters' n!pples in a supposed exercise in sexuality awareness education. Did the fondling actually take place as Wierwille claimed? I don't know. What I do know, however, is that he(VPW) claimed it did. Keep in mind that this is something that was proclaimed in front of a roomful of people, not in some private conversation. And, as has been pointed out, he did this on more than one occasion so there must have been some forethought involved in his making these statements.

Having read the book, I feel compelled to say that the book is not really about the sex, per se. It's about the depth of abuse, manipulation and deception that permeated the lives and thoughts of people (such as VPW) who were supposed to be examples for us to emulate. The sex scandal was merely one facet of a much larger problem. I would recommend this book to anyone who has been affected by an abusive, controlling organization, regardless of whether or not they had ever been involved with TWI.

I believe you have totally missed the point here, White Dove. Or was that your intent? These are not factual matters, they are Mike's "opinions". They are being stated here as though they offered some profound insight. They are pure rhetoric being presented as "absolutes". Same old cr@p VeePeePee is so well remembered for. Consider this phrase: By continuing to focus on, repeat, magnify, and even exaggerate the negatives, then the opportunity to see the many positives is lost forever. Feel free to elaborate on why you consider that to be accurate.

I think it's a Who song. Don't know the title, though.

Very clever catch phrases, Mike. They are all unsubstantiated claims based on personal opinion. This is exactly the type of rhetoric that Wierwille mastered. Take any one of these "claims" and verify it with documentation.

This may be a bit off topic but here is a link that will show you what Jorma is currently occupied with. http://www.furpeaceranch.com/index.html

The focus here is on exposing TWI for the multi-level marketing scheme that it was. The negative aspect is incidental to the task.

Like a lot of other things, aspirin was not "officially" forbidden, it was denounced in an unspoken (and sometimes spoken) manner. It was linked directly to the "law" of believing. Admitting aspirin usage was an indicator of the level of one's believing. Thus, it was a "sign" to others that you had a weakness in your spirituality. Can't have any weaklings dragging us down now can we? So, much of it was a pizzing match, of sorts, to demonstrate your spiritual prowess. Those with a lower "quotient of spirituality" were often bypassed when "promotions" were being considered. I, myself, opted for a surgical procedure that I am certain affected my advancement options. (ie:"If you can't believe for your own healing, how can you be entrusted with God's people?") <_<

(I took the liberty of bolding that part of your post.) You have touched on an important part of TWI theology with this reference to imperceptibility. TWI teaches that although the spirit itself is invisible, or imperceptible, its presence can be detected via the 9 manifestations. You see, in TWI it was taught that if you are born again with the gift of holy spirit, you have an inherent ability to present proof of such in the 5 senses world. This is what is referred to as the 9 manifestations. Speaking in tongues is one of these nine as well as tongues with interpretation and prophesy. (forth-telling, not fore-telling) These 3 are the so-called utterance manifestations and as such they are perceptible. There are also 3 "revelation" manifestations. These are word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits. These are supposedly God's method of talking directly to you as an individual via the spirit inside you. Of special interest to this discussion is the manifestation of discerning of spirits. This is loosely defined as the ability to perceive the presence or absence of spirits, the ability to identify them and the knowledge and wisdom necessary to enact a course of action in dealing with them. In other words, TWI taught that spirits CAN be perceived.

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmtUaVR59Tc

The only thing I remember about trips to RC is how incredibly hard it was to stay awake. It's a wonder we didn't all wind up in a ditch somewhere near the state line.

" We will practice believing----------------------" :o There is nothing new under the grandson.

Louisiana-1927

Wow!!! All good stuff. Here's one of a slightly different flavor.

Happy Birthday, Dana!!

How about some work songs for Labor Day? 5 o'clock World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHR_XxtCjpk...feature=related

Here are your tunes WG http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYWAYLZWZBg

I've kind of lost track so I hope I'm posting this in the right thread. Years ago, Earl B. did a paper (which he taught on) that involved an explanation of the firmament. Now, I might have this wrong so jump in if I'm missing something, please. According to this "research paper", The universe is in a big bubble like an air bubble inside a fish tank. Beyond that is The Expanse, I think. (All water) Now, when Lucifer(and 1/3rd of the angels in Heaven) went to war with God over rulership, the effect was so catastrophic, it tore a hole in the firmament and caused the big flood. This also was said to explain why some comets are actually giant icebergs hurling through space. (A fact confirmed by modern science) Anybody remember this?

Add to that," info-mercials" for PLAF (The Wonder Class).

Yes, Brush According to TWI theology, Adam was created a two-fold man with body and soul. (only) Spirit was placed UPON him with a contingency that stipulated he would have to obey God. When he disobeyed God, the spirit was removed from him, thus severing his direct communication with God. (TWI called people like this "empties floating by".) Throughout the OT, various men were bestowed the honor of having the spirit placed UPON them so long as they fulfilled the conditions. With the new birth, holy spirit became a permanent component of the "believer" He became body, soul AND spirit (a three-fold man). The only condition to satisfy was Romans 10:9&10 It could not be removed because it was "seed", kinda like spiritual DNA. This gave VPW a great deal of latitude to do whatever he wanted and still consider himself connected to God. A spiritual "loophole" of sorts.

Only one I recognize is Chuck Negron----3 Dog Night? Sounded pretty cool, though, from what I heard.

Here it is in a nutshell, Brush (Please note that the following does not necessarily reflect my current beliefs.) When a person is physically born, they have: (1.) body (skin and bones, etc.) ( 2.) soul (breath-life---which starts at first breath and ends at the last) but no spirit. God can not talk to them because He is Spirit and can only talk to spirit. :blink: This is the same as people in the O.T. Certain people in the O.T. had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis. That made it possible for God to speak to them. After Pentecost, the new birth became available to those who satisfied the conditions in Romans 10:9 & 10. (ie: Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.) This plants a seed in the person which is permanent. It is Christ in you. It is Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, yada, yada. It is referred to as the "gift" of holy spirit.(note the lower case usage.) The person is now a three-fold being. (Body, soul, AND spirit.) It represents eternal life. Speaking in tongues is an outward manifestation of its presence. <_< It is a direct connection to God. Okay---What's that have to do with angels? If you have a direct connection to God, you have no need for angels to intercede. One exception to this would be children who have not yet reached the "age of accountability." They are appointed a "guardian angel" until they can accept salvation on their own. (Based on one or two verses in The Book Of Hebrews.) Now, keep in mind that TWI taught that 1/3 of the angels were cast out of Heaven when Lucifer (the original bright and morning star) was expelled from God's presence because he sought to overthrow God's throne. They (those angels who conspired with Lucifer) now roam the earth seeking to create havoc among Earth's inhabitants. They are what TWI referred to as Devil Spirits. So, what you call angels, TWI calls Devil Spirits. That's probably as clear as mud but it's the way I remember it.

Coming from you, this story doesn't surprise me in the least. You've got a heart of gold, lady.