YID

Sunesis, You failed to mention the groups of trinitarians and people who never were in TWI that "decided to come in here and derail, mock and give those who are not in love TWI of VP a very hard time?"

I fully relate to your plight, Doug. The biggest thing I missed after leaving TWI was the one on one fellowship with people with the same passion for God and His Word as I have. It's one of the reasons I visit GSC. But then, it sometimes seems the passions in Greasespot are more diversed than on the Bible. Some are passionate about everything else but the Bible. I have been a prolific witness and teacher since the ROA of '75. I still find myself witnessing and teaching at least a few times a week. Simple things that won't confront the entire error of churchianity, but enough that if there is genuine hunger, they just might figure out a lot of it on their own. I considered a splinter group. But I don't want the TWI carbon copy of how a TWIG runs. I don't want to hear a bunch of people doing manifestations the way they did in the '70's. Above all, I don't want to partake of Communion just because it's Easter. I listen to radio station preachers on a regular basis to stay on top of my game as far as recognizing when they get off the mark. My stering wheel has heard more Bible than most anyone I associate with on a regular basis. I've also considered running a fellowship. But, I'm not sure I can find a dozen people with the passion it would take to do it. On top of that, then you have to consider the tithing and all the other laws of the state. The one thing I can advise is to stay true to your beliefs. People will ultimately consider you a 'Way Brain' for it, but the fact is, it's also a "Bullinger Brain" and a number of other greats in history. Continue memorizing scripture. It will come in handy. I know a believer in Georgia that I mentored in the '80's. He is now running a fellowship and endeavoring to heal riffs between old believers of TWI and splinter groups. I have decided to send my abundant sharing to him. Find someone you think you can get behind and tithe. God will still bless you.

The presence of Mel Gibson took me back until I remembered that somewhere in his past he became a citizen. I loved it. Made me want to memorize it. There are some occassions when testing phone or audio equipment, I will rattle off the preamble. People always stop and listen with awe. Brought a tear to my eye with pride. I loved it!

I tried and failed. I'm too embarrassed to mention my score. I use to think of myself as an amatuer wordsmith. Now, I think I need to spend a lot more time reading than watching TV.

Warning! Some readers may find the following post distasteful. Failure to think so may cause your coffee to turn cold and your lungs to collapse. Bleeding of the right eye should be reported to your doctor immediately. If you lose sleep or have memory loss just remember "Dead Doctors Don't Lie". I remember thinking about LCM screwing around when so many other ministers in other ministries were admitting to their congregation, "I have sinned! ! !" I thought on it for a little bit and thought how deceived they would have allowed themselves to get in order for it to get that bad. I realized that if anything like that ever happened it would be disgraceful and totally ruin TWI.... It appears many people considered that possibility back in the '80's and '90's. Looking back now, I think of how I appreciated his same 'ol jokes year after year. And sometimes before POP, his teachings were really powerful. Now, I don't think too many would go across the street to slice his tomatoes. I can't and won't excuse his blunder, but today when I think of him, I try to remember the things I appreciated before POP. I always loved his teaching on the 4-D's of Doulos Doings. I can't remember them right now, but when I do, I'll appreciate the cleverness of teaching it. The above post is posted by a person infected with CRS and is liable for nothing said.

Re:Apology I thought in his announcement to resign he offered an apology. Not that anyone accepted it. Re: the stories he could tell..... I think I could write a song: "Let my cult.....tell the story........." It would be great for him to let it all out and express his feelings on the experience... But it would probably incite criminal behavior by many.

To speak to you regarding my status with TWI and other splinter groups would be stupid. You won't believe anything I say regarding my status. But for the sake of argument, I am not part of TWI or off shoots. I still believe the Bible and I never considered VPW to have all the answers. Especially since no one does. I took your challenge and read a little on Dr. JJ. As I thought, he proves himself to be the ultimate Trinitarian and would yell from the top of the mountains the exact opposite of what I believe. He mentions in his rebuttle of VPW that VP left out information which should have been mentioned. Funny... I thought the same thing about Dr.JJ. Like the verse that explains how we are to pray to Jesus....Let's see if I have it right? Our Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Hallowed be thy names Thy Kingdoms come Thy wills be done on earth as it is in heaven...ect. Jesus Christ himself was teaching the disciples how to pray and he left that out? On a number of occassions, I have remarked the point that "truth on the lips of the towns greatest liar is still truth." So as to not practice what I preach I will yeild to a few points. No doubt Dr. JJ has some 20 years of finding fault and throwing mud at TWI and that makes him an expert. I'm not. However, I do reserve the right to reject his rhetoric because I got something from VPW and alot of other people in here when they were standing with him. I still believe the Bible is true...at least what I understand of it. Dr. JJ never sat through any teachings where VPW explained the 5 kinds of believing in the Bible. I sometimes listen to the church radio stations around here. They don't understand the 5 catagories of believing either. Hence, I firmly believe they do a lot more damage than TWI ever did. So, there's another dose of my spewed poison over the discussion in here. As for smug and self-righteous? my face is not all narleyed out while I typing this. I reserve the right to think the Bible is true and all the unbelief in the world isn't going to turn it into a lie. However, people will utlimately take a swipe at defaming and discrediting it. Do you believe that?

Granted, I haven't read every post on this thread. By the time I got to the 2nd page it occurred to me that I know nothing of Dr. J. Did he take the class? Did he ever take a stand? Did he take the class, go to college and decide he could disprove everything taught by VPW? His unbelief is astounding. And the people infected by his poison are being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine IMHO. This is the post that got my attention. Keith points out the contrast between VPW and these trinitarians. I am aware there are some trinitarians in here. But Gee Willakers! Then I remembered Proverbs 6 where this remarkable section exposes the real work going on. "16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." I know the whole believing topic got taken to extremes. Good Greif! I remember hearing people claim they could speak in tongues and people would get healed. (Never saw that documented). For those of you with the mindset that VPW was all about false doctrine and plagerism, it would seem you are getting your dander up over a topic with no solution. Screaming at the sun won't make it go away. Proverbs 11:1 says, 1A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight. I always understood God set up the law of believing and that believing His Word produced results. If I didn't get the desired results I learned to moved on to enjoy God and His Word anyway. While I think of it... is Dr. J. a trinitarian? His scholastic credentials hold no weight for me if he is sowing discord. And everything I've seen in this thread is indicative of the fact.

If he knows the hair on your head and the stars in the heavens, I'd think He's got everything covered. Wouldn't you have to be bigger than God to challenge that?

And their shoes are polished and their hair is trimmed. What a crowd pleaser they must've been. Even the parents appreciated their talent. And the girls probably fell all over them.

I love to teach what I know regarding the Bible. Which isn't what it use to be. But I'm always aware of questions people ask. Not knowing their motive for asking the question can come back to bite you. As a general rule I was taught, there are a few reasons people ask questions....They either want to know.... or they want to argue or ridicule. By the response Jesus gave, (IMHO) I am led to believe Pilate was not interested in knowing the answer.

Google "Dead Doctors Don't Lie". Intereresting information which has some insight. We trust our lives to people with a life span of only 55 to 65 years. I enjoy points like this. It shows someone is thinking. Whether or not any of it is true is directly related to how ill you are at the time you hear the tape. I wish I still had the tape to listen to it now 10 years after my first listening. I'm not in a comma. But I'm in a perpectual state of dormant mental awareness.

When I think of all the money and hype in producing Atheletes of the Spirit, I am awed at how much better this production was. Simple to the point....God's votin' fer ya, Devil's votin' agin ya...you determine the election.

The point isn't that I would automatically stand approved before God but that it should be my focus. My focus changed from one to the other and that was liberating. I don't know if I stand approved before God now or not....That is His decision. I know I love reading, working, teaching and ministering what I know and believe. I find myself content. Unlike where I was trying to stand approved before men.

Isn't there a verse about it "raining on the just and the unjust."?

Probably the earth shattering concrete and practical value for me was learning II Timothy 2:15 in depth. Until I took the class, I struggled to stand approved before family, freinds, teachers, administrators at school and of course, teachers and coaches. It never worked. I was always inept at it. If I pleased one, I'd offend the rest in some way. Someone around me seemed to be disappointed in something I said or did and I'd feel responsibile to grovel for forgiveness. VPW is accussed of plagerism and walking on copywrite infractions. I have never been that concerned with the issue. If someone teaches me chemistry and I work it to the point that I can prove it and make it work for someone else, I don't consider it plagerism. Disagreeable as that may be to many, I'm thankful VPW had a way to reach ME! ! ! Billy Grahm couldn't, the Pope couldn't, Swaggart and Roberts were out of the question. But the material in the class did! It took years for me to understand needs and wants parallel and a few other topics. Once I did, I could teach it. It's mine to teach because I know it well. I have witnessed to and taught people who became good leaders. Branch and Limb Coordinators with heart. That's pretty fulfilling for me. And that's practical.

This may be unpopular to the crowd of TWI haters, but this is a very real possibility. I would have probably ended up in prison or dead by 30. I was too stupid to avoid it and the particulars in the life before during and after that I look back on are miraculous. I don't expect anyone to be cheering because I am so thankful for the 21 years I was in, but I have considered it for a long time. The verse that changed my life in PFAL was II Tim 2:15. Up until that time I had tried to stand approved before everyone but God. Teachers, family, community and church.... and I couldn't do it and felt to inept to try. Once I found out how simple it was to stand approved before God, I latched on to it like a rock climber on a roap. It carried me through 21 years of the bs I put up with and even now after I'm out. I was in the army when I took the class. Without TWI, I would have become a lifer and had the personality of pack of camels. I was so naive about life I probably would have become a drug addict or something stupid like that. I certainly would have been a greater mess without TWI than I ended up with TWI. I don't like what VPW and LCM did to the ministry. Even today when I witness to someone and get into the depth of teaching I have them to use as an example of people who got tricked. Thankfully, the Bible is still the Bible. Men come and go.

When I grow up, I want to be just like her.

Hap! ! ! ! ! I'm DOWN with that! ! ! Reminds me of a girlfriend I had in highschool. She never knew what was UP and it all ways got her DOWN. But I think she finally got 'ROUND to getting OVER it.

Seems to me that land in the middle of West Texas might start looking very good. I would hope and expect God would tell us when. One of the things I've thought of in light of the book of Revelation is the two witnesses. I could be wrong, but I would expect they would have to have a real good handle on the truth of the Bible in order to be able to be willing to die. Can you imagine reading Revelation and realize you're reading about yourself? They'd better have a handle on the Bible. I think of the years and resources it required for VP to put together JCOPS. They aren't going to wake up one morning and read the Bible and say, "Hey! That could be talking about me!" I would suspect they will have to be aware of some deep stuff in the Bible in order to carry out the Word. Maybe they'll uncover a Bullinger Bible in High School and take a stand on the best they'll be able to figure out. Gee! Maybe they'll plagerize.

I've witnessed in malls and other public venues. I've been asked to refrain from teaching the Bible in these venues or the security guard would escort me out. But you're right. I should have said public expounding of the scriptures are discouraged and frowned upon. I'm claiming the tribulation of Revelation 6 is separate from tribulation of any other time.

We wouldn't need comfort in all our tribulations if we didn't have tribulations.

Doglover, Where it is true, we are saved from "the wrath", we are not saved from tribulation. IMHO, I venture to suspect we have about 2-5 years left before our country and the world starts to melt down spiritually. It's already illegal to quote Bible Verses in the Malls or pray in public settings. (Praying in public settings has always seemed odd to me anyway). Our freedom of speech is all but gone and our wonderful congressional body has made sure we think it odd that anyone reads the Bible. I was talking with a friend just today. For years I have recited, "No man knows the the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power." Actually, the verse reads, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth". Several things to notice here. Jesus Christ was talking to the disciples, in their administration. Had he said, "Sorry guys, but I'm not doin' that for a few thousand years, all hell would have broken loose. IMHO I don't believe we can know the day or even the year and month. But there are some logical indicators to observe. 1. Genesis 6 says: 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Giants are suppose to refer to people who have committed the unforgivable sin Futher examination of the next verse is indicative that the earth was over run by them. God had to clean house or the red thread would break. 2. Genesis 11:1-4 1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. It was starting up again. The entire habitation of earth were setting themselves up to saturate humanity with men born of the wrong seed. Had God not confounded them with different languages, the earth would have become overflowing with them again. God fixed that. 3. Today we have the internet and communications at the touch of a finger. Our cultures around the world are waxing worse and worse just like it says in II Tim 3:13: Just think! The Muslims we are fighting are all over 30 years old. You think their children will be Buddhist? Or even desire peace with the west? 3But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. There will come a day when no one else in the world will want to hear or allow themselves to hear the Word taught. At that point, there will be no reason for believers to be around. God does know when that time will be. We can know it won't be long. He didn't forbid that as far as I know. Granted, it may be not be for another 1000 years but then, if it is, it won't matter a whole hexx of a lot, will it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know. Probably someone who objects to my paying attention to advanced classes I took. I'm use to rejection..... I was married 20 years. Now for you who love prophets of doom, this should be fun to spin on.

I need help! But then most of you already suggested psycho therapy.. Seriously, I'm starting a business and I needed a kiosk (a booth in a mall). I found one on ebay that was a steel. Problem: it's located in Rockaway, New Jersey. Being in San Antonio, Tx, I never knew this city existed. Anyway, I need to arrange someone to disassemble it and ship it. We'll pay you well. If you have a friend or an enemy in Rockaway, call them and have them contact me. email me at base1.onwatch@gmail.com

I think of it in relation to WWIII. Not a whole heck of a lot we could do about it. Pass me the cig...........If all hell breaks lose we might just have to be of the number of those who survive ....or not. Like I said, "Either this is so far out there that it is indicative of people smoking grass in the cafe or it's time to break out the MAL Packs." I can't find mine. Pass me a brownie.