Rocky

Right now, this book is available on Kindle for free. Amazon has a free Kindle app so, if you do not own (or want to read on) a Kindle device, you can do so on your computer. Thanks Mark, I'm downloading the book now.

I love the image you invoke in the first sentence. You might have the same question(s) as TLC, but you expressed whatever questions you have in terms of questioning the points Bell makes, rather than his motives. I appreciate that about you and what you write on this thread. The question(s) about free will seem to be basic (fundamental but not necessarily fundamentalist) to coming to grips with what we see in the Bible. I don't have "the" answer but I get why people ponder the question. My underlying concern with Christian churches/religions, including twi, goes to the issue of -- as Skyrider recently put it -- subjugation (or obedience). There might be some value to "freely availing" ourselves of fellowship(s) with like-minded believers. Such fellowship can, I suppose, give rise to positive group dynamics. But it can also very easily turn dark when the ideas motivating such a team (or subculture) are not so wonderful. I really am not in a position to parse or argue the specifics of the philosophical questions you (very reasonably) raise. I just haven't had my head into such questions, as you may have. But I have looked at various types of group interactions (from team sports to carrying out civic responsibilities) at least somewhat through the lens of what I learned early on in my adulthood from and about Biblical stories/topics. I find Bell's viewpoint highly intriguing in that regard. However, I also find your discussion quite valuable. Thank you.

Which part of the highlighted words/expressions/sentences that you wrote, did I misunderstand? Is that really "discussing his positions" or questioning his motives. By all means, please clarify. Now, let me clarify that I am in no position to speak for Rob Bell or answer for why he did or didn't do anything. I've never met him. Did I misunderstand that you were asking me why he "skirted the issue?" Or whether he "genuinely or perhaps purposefully... not thought it all the way through to [what would read to you like a more] logical or reasonable conclusion to the matter? If not, why not?" and, "Perhaps his "outside the box" thinking simply isn't as original or as "creative" as might be imagined..." is that a value judgment? Or did I misunderstand what you wrote there too? If so, again, please clarify.

And sometimes the coercion is extremely subtle. When/after we (no doubt unconsciously) decided/accepted that Wierwille was THE authority on how to interpret the Bible, we did no longer, if ever, challenge when he taught that we were a people separate and apart from other groups. We accepted that we did NOT BELONG to community organizations, other religions/denominations/ourselves/affinity groups (like bee-keeping clubs or bird watchers, etc.). It didn't feel like coercion at first. But then we NEEDED the twi fellowships. And when we NEEDED them, we tolerated the abusive tactics/harassment. We were GROOMED to be abused. I appreciate your additional insight, brother Skyrider.

Lot's of speculation in that post about Bell's motivation and mine too. Perhaps the answer is much simpler than the sinister motives you insinuate. Perhaps it's a matter of just recently having heard about his book and found it interesting and wanting to share it. For Bell, perhaps it's that the issue is bigger than any of us and he isn't prepared to claim to be an authority. Reviews I read ahead of getting hold of the book indicated that Bell accomplished for many people helping them expand the range of what they can imagine. I believe he accomplished that marvelously. Thanks.

Once again, brother, you have nailed it. How does this happen again? That's the ultimate underlying issue. One way to look at possible answers to it is in this book. WHY we fall for it EVERY time... until we choose not to be conned, which goes directly to whether we prefer to be led. Another author, journalist Gail Sheehy published a book, 38-years ago, on finding one's own way, Pathfinders. Might be a good book for those tired of being led by wolves in sheep's clothing. Sheehy wrote a number of other books on subjects that can shed helpful insight. But what she doesn't do and hasn't done, is develop a series of classes that one must take to secure HER (the author's) living. None of the insights from either Sheehy or Konnikova relieve the very real human need for belonging. The con artists Skyrider exquisitely described above grab hold of that human need and try to sell themselves as the answer to that need. But if a person finds her/his own path, (s)he can also find others who share interests in the same or similar paths. That can make for a more fulfilling (self-actualizing) inner AND social life with great meaning. Anyway, thanks Skyrider for your salient post.

I'm not going to spend that much time listening to this guy's schpeel but I would again point you to Rob Bell's book, Love Wins. He addresses that issue (what hell is from examining biblical history). Not saying Bell's view is the last word, but it's reasonable to consider. As is, Mark S's research (linked in his comment above).

I agree, Bell doesn't seem to think he even needs (as a human) to account for everything. Perhaps one more reason to respect his position (at least as I see it). I find that refreshing. It contrasts with our experience with a religious organization that did seem to think it had or could figure out the answers to everything.

You'd maybe give him an "A" grade without reading it? What is your objection to reading Love Wins?

You've summarized above pretty much what I understood Bell to be getting at regarding "eternal" and a sense of time and that heaven is not somewhere else, but here already.

Socks, from what I've read about Bell (other than this book), he's no longer the pastor of a mega-church for that very reason. Christian theologians and religion academics did and still do consider him a heretic. But that's what I like about him. Put another way, he dared to think outside the box. Back in the late 1700s, with publication of one particular pamphlet, The Age of Reason, Part III, Thomas Paine previously a hero, became one of the most hated people in America. Why? He challenged the religious paradigms of the day (age). He dared to think outside the box and not only did he instigate the American Revolution, he challenged the superstition rampant in churches. I offer this NOT as political commentary, but only to offer historical perspective. One might at least say (I suppose I do, at least) that Bell didn't plagiarize. I can understand why you would have encouraged your friend to read the Bible and do so prayerfully.

Mark, didn't you already post a link to your website where you had previously posted this? Are you reading Love Wins and then commenting on it? Or are you reading comments on this thread and figuring out how your already posted research might relate to it?

And reading Rob Bell's book should take only a few hours. I hope you read it and provide you insight.

Perhaps you could capsulize the point you want to make here when you provided the link to your article. I'd appreciate it.

Yes, yes and YES! I won't pretend to have any authoritative take one way or the other on the historical issues you listed. But the rest of it makes TOTAL sense to me. Preach it Socks!

I suspect you have some good points in your comment, but I'm not seeing how it relates to the topic of this thread. Perhaps you could clarify. Thanks.

YES! Love Wins was published in 2011. I appreciate that you enjoyed the book and have added to the conversation. I look forward to more of your insight reflecting on it.

Rob Bell addresses that particular point in chapter two.

Nor do I.

No need to apologize for any part of it, agreeing or disagreeing with me.

My goal in this is not to write a book, but to read one and discuss it. I hope you join me in that endeavor. Mark, rather than comment on your post, which I suppose many people (especially here at GSC) could debate, I'd like to highlight what I believe is important about Rob Bell's book. It isn't easy to develop a thoroughly biblical imagination that incorporates the comprehensive and eternal work of Christ in all people... etc. I hope you can get hold of a copy of the book and consider the many questions Bell raises. Pondering those questions is a great way, IMO, to expand our ability to imagine (some of) what might be that is beyond what we've been able to grasp thus far in our lives.

This topic does not belong in Questioning Faith and does not presuppose the non-existence of God. It is based on something I've chewed on for years. I've started reading Rob Bell's book, Love Wins: a Book about Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. The topic DOES pre-suppose that the Bible doesn't provide many of the answers we need to VERY important questions about life and living. Eugene H Peterson said about Bell's book, Bell raises numerous thought provoking questions that will help the reader think outside the box that both contemporary Christian churches and especially TWI stuffed God. For starters: "Of all the billions of people who have ever lived, will only a select number "make it to a better place" and every single other person suffer in torment and punishment forever? Is this acceptable to God? Has God created millions [billions] of people over tens of thousands of years who are going to spend etermity in anguish? Can God do this, or even allow this, and still claim to be a loving God?" "Does God punish people for thousands of years with infinite, eternal torment for things they did in their few finite years of life?" "This doesn't just raise disturbing questions about God, it raises questions about the beliefs themselves. Why them? Why you? Why me? Why not him or her or them?" For perspective, how freaking narcissistic does that make Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International by claiming they had the ONLY way to be in the "Household of God?" How indeed? Or how about Vince Finnegan who reportedly has repudiated claims that once one gets saved (as we understood, by way of Romans 10:9-10), that's it. Has Vince really preached that God will cast believers in to the Lake of Fire if they don't toe Vince's (or anyone else's interpretation of what one must comply with to remain saved) line? I invite Greasespotters to read Rob Bell's book with me. More background on Rob Bell. From Time.com April 14, 2011 "The standard Christian view of salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is summed up in the Gospel of John, which promises "eternal life" to "whosoever believeth in Him." Traditionally, the key is the acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, who, in the words of the ancient creed, "for us and for our salvation came down from heaven ... and was made man." In the Evangelical ethos, one either accepts this and goes to heaven or refuses and goes to hell. "Bell, a tall, 40-year-old son of a Michigan federal judge, begs to differ. He suggests that the redemptive work of Jesus may be universal — meaning that, as his book's subtitle puts it, "every person who ever lived" could have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be.

excellent observation! Keep on learning!

Thanks for the clarification. Why was I thinking that? Because you didn't previously specify. That's what asking questions for clarification is all about.

I agree, it seems quite apparent in many areas of society and culture that there are "plenty of people (who) prefer to be led." There are plenty of other examples in societies and cultures these days -- not limited to twi and offshoots thereof. Bravo for you that you study and re-search bible stuff with a small group of friends. A caveat I would add, that you probably have already thought of -- don't translate ANY of your re-search into dogmas that others must follow. Further, perhaps you might find studying (and searching or re-searching) other, not necessarily limited to biblical, topics also electrifying. Some might also provide exciting insights into what might indirectly relate to "things of God." Just a few thoughts, FWIW.