Rocky

Why could it not be both?

I'll echo Waysider's comment but also add that nobody here can authoritatively label anyone's first person account false or exaggerated. Btw, Wbw, have you ever heard the expression, "where there's smoke, there's fire?"

I'd say that's the least likely explanation.

They never received it = they didn't grasp it. Idiomatically speaking, it went in one ear and out the other. Changing culture is a very difficult task. Getting someone to accept a directive or suggestion that runs counter to what they've been conditioned to accept is, for the vast majority of people, extremely difficult. The person is conditioned to resist OR possibly can't even understand what s/he hears OR has a very high level of risk aversion... OR...

THAT is the essence of leaving TWI. I don't think the R&R guys and gals are generally prepared to do that.

These threads with TLC seem to have a LOT in common with when Mike engaged in his incessant worship of Wierwille. I'm not suggesting TLC is Mike. The voice is definitely different. But there are parallels in that there was (is) no end to the circular nature of the bickering.

Unless any given splinter cult declares emphatically that it believes differently than Wierwille taught (and practiced), it's fair to surmise that said group's practice will be what Wierwille practiced. That includes the notion that, IOW, it's fair to characterize the the default position as how WordWolf described. It would naturally be up to any such apparent Top Dog to make the distinction by word and deed.

He and his now ex-wife.

Carmen was verbally horse-whipped by Dr Phil.

I may not have been clear. Putting your Shirley "quote" in perspective, "you only exist IN MY MIND because WHEN I imagine you to be." Does that help clarify?

One reads it, listens to someone speak or read it, or watches it on video. But until the person imagines what s/he has read or heard, the person doesn't have a basis on which to understand it.

Campbell with Bill Moyers. Under 10 minutes. "The individual has to find the myth that has to do with the conduct of his life. There are a number of services that myths serve. The basic one is opening the world to the dimension of mystery. If you lose that, you don't have a mythology to realize the mystery that underlies all forms. But then there comes the cosmological aspect of myth. Seeing that mystery as manifest through all things. The universe becomes, as it were, a holy picture..." And that's just in the first minute.

Oh come on Raf. You can't tell me that Moses wasn't real. He was photographed/filmed in real time! Let my people go, damn it!!

Indeed.

Check your messages.

Wow!

I'll try. Btw, I am usually put off by hour long videos. But I sat through this whole thing. First, Aslan's talk only lasts the first 35 or so minutes. The rest is Q and A. Second, he is Iranian by birth, family moved to Bay Area CA when he was a child. His father atheist, his mother Muslim. As a teen, he became a fundamentalist Christian. While in college he converted back to Islam. But he's well-studied on the history of both religions and says he loves both. Listening to him, I have to believe that claim. He has intimately studied the four (optic) Gospels as well as Gnostic and other Gospel records. He has a lot to say about how the four harmonize and contradict. He holds a bachelor's degree, two master's and a PhD. His manner is unpretentious and unassuming. Easy to listen to. VERY well spoken. Bottom line is that there are only three things we know about Jesus from historical records NOT scripture. (I'll have to go back into the video to get the details) He says that that the Christ of Faith is malleable and can be whatever one wants him to be... because that Christ is different from culture to culture throughout the world.

This guy has an intriguing perspective.

Dude, you can make those statements, but they lack integrity. Whenever (yes, every time) anyone asks for clarification, you state they are twisting or spinning your words, as opposed to you trying to clarify so the reader might possibly come closer to understanding your intended message. Further, when a reader responds with what s/he does understand you to have intended to mean, you jump on them for intentionally misunderstanding... or "playing games with what I've said..." (rather than, "sorry, that's not what I meant. Let me see if I can present it another way that might make more sense to you") One seems to only be able to reasonably deduce that you are either toying with people here or are more dense than the densest diamond that's ever been found.

I am totally in AWE of your intellectual prowess. Nevertheless, you may have had a very hard time in fields related to psychology or psychiatry given your apparent difficulty with the communication process (i.e. listening skills).

Yes, it sounds fascinating. And yes, just pennies more than $7. Thanks.

Neither Manson nor that thread were in my conscious thinking at all. Frankly, when I received my daily Amazon Kindle deals email, the book was on sale that day for $1.99 (US). Few of the books on those emails interest me any more, but this one did. Of course, there have been discussions on GSC about "belonging" for years. But that's not all that's interested me about the subject. Back in the 1990s, I read books by the now late M. Scott Peck. His insight on life was tremendously enlightening for me. On this subject, he wrote Different Drum: Community Making and Peace. Really, my main concern is and was that people who leave twi face issues related to emotional support systems... belonging. That's Ms Agrawal's point exactly. But she has practical ideas on how people can find THEIR people... which may happen multiple times for anyone. Thank you very much Twinky, for sharing your story on this thread.

Yes, that's sad. But it's still a part of who you are. I hope you can embrace it and make it a part of your personal narrative to help others wherever they may be. In the 1990s, I was usually reluctant to disclose my association with twi. Eventually, for me, it no longer mattered. But now I can and do discuss my experience with people who are either cult survivors or concerned about cults (one particular political cult especially).