Rocky

As you (or somebody) mentioned Victor Barnard today on another thread, it seems important to note that Wierwille's wantonness naturally spawned a psychopath/sociopath like Barnard who brazenly tailored false doctrine to rationalize gratification of his sexual desires with underage girls... and how he conned those girls' parents.

Great list of succinctly stated salient points.

I doubt it. Perhaps extreme narcissism clouds his self-awareness.

"Original sin" is a key component of the Judeo-Christian creation story.

Apparently neither does anyone else, other than the character who started the thread. ;)

Check your computer's "character map." ¢ On windows based systems, you can also get it but holding the Alt key and typing 0162 (like this). ¢

Doesn't matter that he asked me. I had already declined, offering instead to communicate by private message.

Having started this thread, I don't see where it had gotten off topic prior to your post. That said, I appreciate your comment too.

Intriguing.

If I were to get into explanations of JBS, its history and the development of American government/public policy/politics -- to make the connections easier to understand -- I believe it would be crossing a line and inviting debate over political issues. This is not the place to do that. If you have any questions or would like to discuss it more, please send me a PM. I'd be happy to converse with you privately.

The conspiracy theory mindset, holocaust crap (and his belief that he was free to lead his life of wantonness) is all directly tracable from the John Birch Society. JBS directly influenced wierwille through one of twi's earliest wealthy benefactors, JAL's father.

Vote on what? Why should Christians NOT vote. They (We) are citizens and have civic duties we must fulfill.

There's still plenty of wisdom in the Bible to learn from... thanks for this gem. :)

I don't know that anyone had put it in so many words before, but yes, vpee was a con man who took portions of previous movements he had been exposed to and incorporated them into what he devised as a multi-level marketing scheme for a series of classes. I've read that con men can persuade themselves. It's my opinion, FWIW (maybe two cents), that vpee consciously knew, to some extent at least part of the time, that he was conning people. The saddest part of it is that there are people who still believe it was all legitimate.

Yep. That's also why the connection vpw had with JBS is so significant. JBS gave him permission to do as he pleased without giving any serious thought to what constitutes loving God and loving others.

It's also no accident that Wierwille and his doctrine attracted people connected to the John Birch Society and that various conspiracy theories from JBS spilled over into twi. JALvis' father (a key Wierwille benefactor) was an early and longtime JBS driving force. Liberty and Freedom were key words in JBS. JBS and those concepts enabled (gave permission to) Wierwille's wantonness. Please not that I'm not putting this out for a political discussion. This is TWI/Wierwille's history. I'm only documenting it and connecting dots. JBS was a major holocaust denier and source of the None Dare Call It Conspiracy and Thirteenth Tribe concepts as we heard about them in twi. As a student, Allen majored in history at Stanford University in Palo Alto, California,[2] and studied as well at California State University in Long Beach.[3] He was a prominent member of Robert W. Welch, Jr.'s John Birch Society, of which he was a spokesman. He contributed to magazines such as Conservative Digest[4] and American Opinion magazine since 1964.[5] He also was the speech writer for George Wallace, the former governor of Alabama and a one-time segregationist, during the 1968 U.S. presidential election against Richard M. Nixon and Hubert H. Humphrey. He was an advisor to the conservative Texas millionaire Nelson Bunker Hunt.[4] In 1971, Allen wrote with Larry Abraham a book titled None Dare Call It Conspiracy (prefaced by U.S. Representative John G. Schmitz of California's 35th congressional district and the nominee of the American Independent Party in the 1972 U.S. presidential election). It sold more than four million copies[6] during the 1972 presidential campaign opposing Nixon and U.S. Senator George S. McGovern.[7] I meant to say, "Please NOTE that I'm not putting this out for a political discussion. This is TWI/Wierwille's history. I'm only documenting it and connecting dots.

In a recent thread or two, the topic of "magical thinking" came up. Someone mentioned the "law of believing" as being at least a part of magical thinking. Perhaps that's true, but that's not my understanding of the term, which I didn't make up. Neither did the so-called law of believing (or much of anything else, btw) originate with Wierwille. "Think you don't believe in magic? Think again. Our brains are designed to pick up on patterns: Making connections helped our ancestors survive. You're not crazy if you're fond of jinxes, lucky charms, premonitions, wish fulfillment, or karma. You're just human." We (former followers of Wierwille) were simply hoodwinked into believing that Wierwille was a god (I know he didn't use that term to describe himself, but he set himself up as the god of the cult anyway) who revealed to us a new mystical experience and way of conducting our lives (the 12 manifestations of pneuma hagion). He thus claimed it was something the First Century Church did and HE could show us how to live like that in the 20th (i.e. the blue book). Magical thinking is further described, Magical thinking springs up everywhere. Some irrational beliefs ... are passed on to us. But others we find on our own. Survival requires recognizing patterns—night follows day, berries that color will make you ill. And because missing the obvious often hurts more than seeing the imaginary, our skills at inferring connections are overtuned. No one told Wade Boggs that eating chicken before every single game would help his batting average; he decided that on his own, and no one can argue with his success. We look for patterns because we hate surprises and because we love being in control. Emotional stress and events of personal significance push us strongly toward magical meaning-making. Lancaster University psychologist Eugene Subbotsky relates an exemplary tale. "I was in Moscow walking with my little son down a long empty block," he recalls. Suddenly a parked car started moving on its own, then swerved toward them, and finally struck an iron gate just centimeters away. "We escaped death very narrowly, and I keep thinking magically about this episode. Although I'm a rational man, I'm a scientist, I'm studying this phenomenon, there are some events in your life that you cannot explain rationally. Under certain circumstances I really feel like someone or something is guiding my life and helping me." (Personally I would have felt like something was trying to kill me and needed to work on its aim.) --------- When I was young, something like Subbotsky experienced would, partly because of twi dogma (dealing with the adversary), have scared the crap out of me. If we are indoctrinated into a subculture that obsesses over the devil, of course we're going to infer that the devil's trying to kill us. But are there rational explanations when things like that happen? "... you are wired to find meaning in the world, a predisposition that leaves you with less control over your beliefs than you may think. Even if you're a hard-core atheist who walks under ladders and pronounces "new age" like "sewage," you believe in magic." At this time, I simply recognize and understand that Wierwille provided a framework to susceptible (mostly) young people based on known psychological/motivational techniques. In so doing, those of us who got caught up in it looked at the world through his framework. I also do not believe that Wierwille's framework constituted Christianity, even though he used biblical terms and verses to teach it and justify it. There are other so-called Christian flavors that diverge immensely from the nugget that Jesus set forth in Matt 22:36-40. Namely, Dominionism. And yet, I am confident that some people actually did connect with a more genuine Christianity via (in spite of) TWI. To me, the epitome of Wierwille's pathologic narcissism is wrapped up in his advanced class teaching on keys to walking in the spirit. Wouldn't it be fair to characterize those keys as license to do what you want and claim what's really your own "inner voice" giving you that permission and you think it's really God? ------------ I recall a time sitting in the BRC at HQ, during the summer of the 9th corpse's first year in residence, with Wierwille. He, of course, was holding forth in a relaxed, matter of fact manner. I mentioned something about Patrick Henry, the 18th century American who declared, "give me liberty or give me death." Wierwille about went ballistic, thinking I had referred to Thomas Paine. Paine's name was familiar, but I didn't recall the significance at the time. And I didn't understand why it would make him angry. Now I do. Besides being almost singlehandedly responsible for inciting the American Revolution, Paine's essay on, The Age of Reason, drew extreme ire from clergy of his time because it superstition and magical thinking head on.

and, of course, "stick" fellowships didn't contribute to the coffers of the vile root. Thanks for this history update, Bolshevik. :) Well, I don't know anything about the connection with quantum physics, but in case others would like to explore the concept of "magical thinking" I will be happy to start another thread.

Multiple issues involved in that set of comments. I understand such things as the list of what you referred to as "Way Tree terminology" as metaphors. Dumb metaphors, as I see it now, but metaphors nevertheless. It's just a way to understand the organization. Not necessarily good or bad, just something to help people understand how twi saw itself. "Magical thinking" involves plenty more than just the law of believing. One example: thinking that something you observed happen but weren't necessarily expecting or praying for was done by God for your benefit. That's completely outside of you and your prayer life. Oh, that must have happened because God wanted me to __________. Of course, that does encompass people changing their perception of reality, or perhaps changing how they define the purpose of anything that happens. Btw, I don't recall ever having heard the expression "stick fellowship" before reading this thread. But then again, I left twi about 30 years ago.

Clever.

Great point. Thanks for the link.

Show of hands... who cares?

Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good... hmmm... who said that? That sounds like a good reason to jettison VPee's PI. btw, you can't figure out that "twit" is another name for a waybrained person?

Your demands are getting old. If you wonder about any given person and which corpse they were in, why aren't you asking them that question? Like I and others have said before, people have already answered that question repeatedly on other threads. You may also want to explain why it matters to you which corpse any given person was in? Have you obtained any of Daniel Goleman's books yet? Exactly.

Perhaps it's just MRAP's victim mentality. Maybe digging for the answers in an extensive database of existing threads is too much work for him. And if he doesn't get direct replies in explicit enough detail, then we're oppressing him?