Craig made the original sin as Eve having a lesbian encounter with the serpent. He said the reason that VPW's teaching of the original sin being masturbation never took off was because it wasn't quite right. I guess LCM though he came up with the real original sin. :blink:
I think that is where the doctrinal error crept in big time with LCM because of his own sexual indescretions.
He also declared the House of His Healing Presence an old wine skin and had it torn down. I dont' remember exactly why he thought that. Maybe someone else can expound on that better than I can.
This is pure conjecture, and maye I'm just cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if the sight of people sitting around praying in a 'clubhouse' got on Craig's nerves. All those people whining about their 'needs' when they should be acting on the Word, instead of being 'wusses'.
still digging around in the archives...can anyone tell me what vpw doctrines were declared to be "old wineskins" by crazy uncle craig? and what they were replaced with?
Can't help you out with that there, Sprawled Out.
It surprised me too, that docvic's teachings were tossed into *Gehenna*.
I was outta twi before the *3-ring lcm circus* got into full swing.
(Lions and Tigers, and Athletes!! (Oh My!!!!)
Never did have the WAP class, so I don't know about what was taught there ---
Craig made the original sin as Eve having a lesbian encounter with the serpent. He said the reason that VPW's teaching of the original sin being masturbation never took off was because it wasn't quite right.
Adam masturbating while watching two women getting it on seems to fit pretty well, or am I being too carnally minded ?? :)
The time frame of it was in the early-to-mid nineties, for the most part. I remember hearing a lot about "old wineskins" when I was on the WOW field in 94, so that might help.
The thing that probably made me go, "Hey! Wait a minute!" was when I heard they'd gotten rid of the House of His Healing Presence. Good grief. I bet LCM would have taken out the Garden of Living Waters, too, if it didn't happen to also be a cemetary and right outside of Mrs. W.'s window!
Martindale would always claim that we peons misunderstood Wierwille's "heart" regarding the things that he changed, and that what he was changing was not what Wierwille taught, but our misunderstanding and misapplication of it. When he did change something that was too obvious to explain away in that manner, he told us that we were a research minsitry and we should expect to change when we got "new light".
A lot of the events that were eliminated, as well as landmarks like the House of His Healing Presence, were done away with because he accused us of making idols of them.
Toward the end there was a real hostility on the local level toward the "old grads", people who remembered the "old days" because they were there. I'm sure that this came from the top. Despite the public recognition of people who had "stood" for 20, 25, 30 + years, the collective wisdom of people who had been around the ministry block a few times was derided.
Oakie's comment just made me remember something ---
I remember this one guy in our area who was really into the University of Life series. He was a very smart dude and probably wouldn't have ever gone Way Corps, so for him UOL was IT. We'll call him "Tom" just for the sake of the incident.
Well, UOL got discontinued - under the umbrella of being an "ol' wineskin" - again it was something that VPW started, so it just had to go. Tom was in utter disbelief. He didn't want it to end. He started asking a lot of questions and this went on for several fellowships, etc., until finally leadership came down on him with two feet. The guy had some great points and asked valid questions - but never got a straight answer. Leadership threatened to M&A him if he didn't knock it off and said he had to let go of the past, etc., etc. Tom got blasted on a couple of levels because of this.
It was Oakie's comment about hostility that made me remember this... I hope Tom is out...
some of these things--like the house of his healing presence--are unbelievable to me. i mean, it WAS hokey, but at least it had heart. like "daddy's cookie jar." guess craigsy was too macho for that stuff. of course, i mean macho in the most homophobic sense.
...Good point...A face that could turn anyone's stomach.
This "old wineskins" is a curious thing to me...
...I left in 87 so I never experienced it. It would seem to me that all these changes occurred after the fog years, when between 75% and 90% of the ministry left...the numbers had dwindled horribly.
Was this an effort to try to "revamp" twi to bring in more people?
...or was it a case where king okie realized that he was living in the shadows of the legend of Veepee and wanted his own glory?
Tore down the HHP?????? That's about as bad as king Ahaz in the OT nailing shut the doors of the House of the Lord. What a circus freak.
If "God talks to you and you know it, or He didn't", then will someone please explain to me how in 1984 at my AC, LCM went on and on about how Muhammad Ali was born of the seed of the serpent, a fact not available to know without revelation. But in 1995 during an SNS teaching, he says Ali is born again of God's spirit, but being used by the adversary. I thought wrong seed was permanent. So on one or both of those sharings, God didn't talk to LCM.
The House of His healing presense...In the sedate and peaceful way woods...where numerous believers would sit quietly and pray...a time of refection and hope...a time of faith, when God would answer prayers and touch the hearts of the humble...a time of healing for many weary souls...
.........CUT.........
Enter king okie...OK boys...bring that bulldozer on in...that's it...knock that sucker down!
I think Craig had it backwards. His revelations turned everybody else's stomachs. (Probably God's, too!)
As far as the Ali thing went, I recall LCM first figuring that Ali was seed by the way he operated devil spirits in his "phantom" punch knockout of Liston. Later, he figured that Ali's (Clay's) Christian upbringing would probably have gotten him born again, so it must have been Ali's MANAGER who was seed.
I think I remember King Oakie saying that it was becoming an idolatrous thing for people because of them thinking that was one of the only places they could pray and receive answers to prayer.
I don't believe it turned in to idolatry for anyone. I think it was one of the few godly and pure things that TWI ever did for people. People write their requests in a book and others go in and pray put a large network of people praying for things that were really important to the writers' hearts. My personal opinion is that lcm didn't like anything appearing "churchy". He had way too much time on his hands to think about ridiculous stuff like that.
RFR certainly didn't call LCM's teachings, etc., old wine skins, did she?
I remember shortly after the Galation tapes (Leadership tapes) in the early 90's, LCM had all the Limbs perge the bookstores of STS that were done by or mentioned people who had left - like Ralph D., John Lynn, etc., and asked them to distroy the tapes and report back that the deed was done.
Did anything like this go out when LCM was de-throned? Nope. If memory serves me, they were still showing his class until not too long ago when the local leadership started teaching it live, rather than run the tapes. I can't imagine how they explained that one to new people.... Good grief...
But LCM's stuff wasn't deemed to be ol' wineskins, was it? Sorta sick that what VPW did was considered that, but then what King Okie coughed up was considered to be just fine and dandy. I would have thought it was sorta the other way around. I mean, at least with VPW they had some numbers - lots of members - but LCM just chased them all away, in a sense.
I remember shortly after the Galation tapes (Leadership tapes) in the early 90's, LCM had all the Limbs perge the bookstores of STS that were done by or mentioned people who had left - like Ralph D., John Lynn, etc., and asked them to distroy the tapes and report back that the deed was done.
Did anything like this go out when LCM was de-throned? Nope. If memory serves me, they were still showing his class until not too long ago when the local leadership started teaching it live, rather than run the tapes. I can't imagine how they explained that one to new people.... Good grief...
An interesting observation, about tapes from the past.
I remember clearly -- 1975, and fellowshipping at a *Way home* in Bloomington, Indiana.
Two *townhouses* side by side, men in one, women in the other.
Twig was held in the men's *abode*, where a prolific collection of reel-to-reel tapes,
lined the walls in a bookcase that extended from the floor to the ceiling.
All cooking was done in the women's *abode*,
And nothing (from a *ministry* viewpoint) was ever held there.
J*hn and D*rcie Sc*tt (6th corps and the branch leaders at that time)
{from what I was told}, *donated* those tapes,
to the branch here in town for all to access.
I remember the first 3 tapes were all labeled 101, and ---
they were all Bishop Pillai teaching on Orientalisms.
The tapes where Docvic got Bishop Pillai to sit in front of the mic ---
and expound what he knew, concerning orientalisms --
from Genesis -- to who knows where he ended up at. :)
This was 30 years ago, and each time I have gone back to Indiana to visit my family,
I've tried to find these tapes. There were (about) 600 of them, in totality.
No luck. They've all disappeared.
Some of the folks in that way home were :
Jim McKe*
Jeff Tiedem*n
Bill Mort*n
Ed Weather*ll
(and other's who I remember -- but can't put a name to).
and when J*hn and D*rcie left for headquarters,
Rick Pany*rd, and Chris Sk*dgell took over.
The two *way homes* (side by side) ended up in obscurity,
and so did the tapes.
What a history *available* , and what has been lost. :(
Granted -- these tapes weren't *old wine-skins*, yet they disappeared, just the same --
Somehow -- I don't think they would be welcome in way-world, these days.
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Nottawayfer
Craig made the original sin as Eve having a lesbian encounter with the serpent. He said the reason that VPW's teaching of the original sin being masturbation never took off was because it wasn't quite right. I guess LCM though he came up with the real original sin. :blink:
I think that is where the doctrinal error crept in big time with LCM because of his own sexual indescretions.
He also declared the House of His Healing Presence an old wine skin and had it torn down. I dont' remember exactly why he thought that. Maybe someone else can expound on that better than I can.
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hiway29
This is pure conjecture, and maye I'm just cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if the sight of people sitting around praying in a 'clubhouse' got on Craig's nerves. All those people whining about their 'needs' when they should be acting on the Word, instead of being 'wusses'.
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dmiller
Can't help you out with that there, Sprawled Out.
It surprised me too, that docvic's teachings were tossed into *Gehenna*.
I was outta twi before the *3-ring lcm circus* got into full swing.
(Lions and Tigers, and Athletes!! (Oh My!!!!)
Never did have the WAP class, so I don't know about what was taught there ---
As the *New, Present, Truth* (gag).
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GT
Daddy's cookie jar was out.
Craig didn't like that a person could think that they could initiate revelation. He figured either God talked to you and you knew it, or He didn't.
Craig said he knew God was talking to him when his stomach was turning.
I suspect he suffered from some stomach ailment, and some brain problems that caused him to think someone was talking to him when there was no one.
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oldiesman
Adam masturbating while watching two women getting it on seems to fit pretty well, or am I being too carnally minded ??
:)
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dmiller
Now why didn't we know that!?!?
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dmiller
Oldies -- You can stop (anee-time now) in your striving to master the ridiculous. <_<
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GT
The list of "old wine skins" is long.
Basically, anything Craig deemed as worn out and useless was replaced.
twig -> fellowship
believer -> disciple
wow => disciples of the way
Rock of ages - > advanced class specials
PFAL -> Way of Abundance and Power
Trying to breath live into a dying cult.....futile.
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ChasUFarley
GreasyTech has a lot of it right.
The time frame of it was in the early-to-mid nineties, for the most part. I remember hearing a lot about "old wineskins" when I was on the WOW field in 94, so that might help.
The thing that probably made me go, "Hey! Wait a minute!" was when I heard they'd gotten rid of the House of His Healing Presence. Good grief. I bet LCM would have taken out the Garden of Living Waters, too, if it didn't happen to also be a cemetary and right outside of Mrs. W.'s window!
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Oakspear
Martindale would always claim that we peons misunderstood Wierwille's "heart" regarding the things that he changed, and that what he was changing was not what Wierwille taught, but our misunderstanding and misapplication of it. When he did change something that was too obvious to explain away in that manner, he told us that we were a research minsitry and we should expect to change when we got "new light".
A lot of the events that were eliminated, as well as landmarks like the House of His Healing Presence, were done away with because he accused us of making idols of them.
Toward the end there was a real hostility on the local level toward the "old grads", people who remembered the "old days" because they were there. I'm sure that this came from the top. Despite the public recognition of people who had "stood" for 20, 25, 30 + years, the collective wisdom of people who had been around the ministry block a few times was derided.
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ChasUFarley
Oakie's comment just made me remember something ---
I remember this one guy in our area who was really into the University of Life series. He was a very smart dude and probably wouldn't have ever gone Way Corps, so for him UOL was IT. We'll call him "Tom" just for the sake of the incident.
Well, UOL got discontinued - under the umbrella of being an "ol' wineskin" - again it was something that VPW started, so it just had to go. Tom was in utter disbelief. He didn't want it to end. He started asking a lot of questions and this went on for several fellowships, etc., until finally leadership came down on him with two feet. The guy had some great points and asked valid questions - but never got a straight answer. Leadership threatened to M&A him if he didn't knock it off and said he had to let go of the past, etc., etc. Tom got blasted on a couple of levels because of this.
It was Oakie's comment about hostility that made me remember this... I hope Tom is out...
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sprawled out
some of these things--like the house of his healing presence--are unbelievable to me. i mean, it WAS hokey, but at least it had heart. like "daddy's cookie jar." guess craigsy was too macho for that stuff. of course, i mean macho in the most homophobic sense.
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outandabout
Gotta get rid of that House of His Healing Presence. Can't have people praying or anything.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Maybe it was just lunch time.
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outintexas
Doncha know it's the new "present truth?" Out with the old and in with the new.
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GT
Maybe it was just after he had to see Rosie.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Good point...A face that could turn anyone's stomach.
This "old wineskins" is a curious thing to me...
...I left in 87 so I never experienced it. It would seem to me that all these changes occurred after the fog years, when between 75% and 90% of the ministry left...the numbers had dwindled horribly.
Was this an effort to try to "revamp" twi to bring in more people?
...or was it a case where king okie realized that he was living in the shadows of the legend of Veepee and wanted his own glory?
...or maybe a combination of the two?
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johniam
Tore down the HHP?????? That's about as bad as king Ahaz in the OT nailing shut the doors of the House of the Lord. What a circus freak.
If "God talks to you and you know it, or He didn't", then will someone please explain to me how in 1984 at my AC, LCM went on and on about how Muhammad Ali was born of the seed of the serpent, a fact not available to know without revelation. But in 1995 during an SNS teaching, he says Ali is born again of God's spirit, but being used by the adversary. I thought wrong seed was permanent. So on one or both of those sharings, God didn't talk to LCM.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The House of His healing presense...In the sedate and peaceful way woods...where numerous believers would sit quietly and pray...a time of refection and hope...a time of faith, when God would answer prayers and touch the hearts of the humble...a time of healing for many weary souls...
.........CUT.........
Enter king okie...OK boys...bring that bulldozer on in...that's it...knock that sucker down!
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GeorgeStGeorge
I think Craig had it backwards. His revelations turned everybody else's stomachs. (Probably God's, too!)
As far as the Ali thing went, I recall LCM first figuring that Ali was seed by the way he operated devil spirits in his "phantom" punch knockout of Liston. Later, he figured that Ali's (Clay's) Christian upbringing would probably have gotten him born again, so it must have been Ali's MANAGER who was seed.
George
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Nottawayfer
I think I remember King Oakie saying that it was becoming an idolatrous thing for people because of them thinking that was one of the only places they could pray and receive answers to prayer.
I don't believe it turned in to idolatry for anyone. I think it was one of the few godly and pure things that TWI ever did for people. People write their requests in a book and others go in and pray put a large network of people praying for things that were really important to the writers' hearts. My personal opinion is that lcm didn't like anything appearing "churchy". He had way too much time on his hands to think about ridiculous stuff like that.
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ChasUFarley
RFR certainly didn't call LCM's teachings, etc., old wine skins, did she?
I remember shortly after the Galation tapes (Leadership tapes) in the early 90's, LCM had all the Limbs perge the bookstores of STS that were done by or mentioned people who had left - like Ralph D., John Lynn, etc., and asked them to distroy the tapes and report back that the deed was done.
Did anything like this go out when LCM was de-throned? Nope. If memory serves me, they were still showing his class until not too long ago when the local leadership started teaching it live, rather than run the tapes. I can't imagine how they explained that one to new people.... Good grief...
But LCM's stuff wasn't deemed to be ol' wineskins, was it? Sorta sick that what VPW did was considered that, but then what King Okie coughed up was considered to be just fine and dandy. I would have thought it was sorta the other way around. I mean, at least with VPW they had some numbers - lots of members - but LCM just chased them all away, in a sense.
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TOMMYZ
Am I the only one reminded of the book "Animal Farm"? People who remember the old days are a threat to the current leadership.
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dmiller
An interesting observation, about tapes from the past.
I remember clearly -- 1975, and fellowshipping at a *Way home* in Bloomington, Indiana.
Two *townhouses* side by side, men in one, women in the other.
Twig was held in the men's *abode*, where a prolific collection of reel-to-reel tapes,
lined the walls in a bookcase that extended from the floor to the ceiling.
All cooking was done in the women's *abode*,
And nothing (from a *ministry* viewpoint) was ever held there.
J*hn and D*rcie Sc*tt (6th corps and the branch leaders at that time)
{from what I was told}, *donated* those tapes,
to the branch here in town for all to access.
I remember the first 3 tapes were all labeled 101, and ---
they were all Bishop Pillai teaching on Orientalisms.
The tapes where Docvic got Bishop Pillai to sit in front of the mic ---
and expound what he knew, concerning orientalisms --
from Genesis -- to who knows where he ended up at. :)
This was 30 years ago, and each time I have gone back to Indiana to visit my family,
I've tried to find these tapes. There were (about) 600 of them, in totality.
No luck. They've all disappeared.
Some of the folks in that way home were :
Jim McKe*
Jeff Tiedem*n
Bill Mort*n
Ed Weather*ll
(and other's who I remember -- but can't put a name to).
and when J*hn and D*rcie left for headquarters,
Rick Pany*rd, and Chris Sk*dgell took over.
The two *way homes* (side by side) ended up in obscurity,
and so did the tapes.
What a history *available* , and what has been lost. :(
Granted -- these tapes weren't *old wine-skins*, yet they disappeared, just the same --
Somehow -- I don't think they would be welcome in way-world, these days.
Back to topic ---
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