Why didn't vpw confront twi's straying from truth?

[skyrider]

I also remember a meeting, a day or two before the Word over the World Auditorium was dedicated. VPW called all the staff in there to be the audience for a run-through, but he also shared some things. He was worked up (IMO in a good way that time), saying that if it was anything but the Word that the auditorium stood for, it might as well burn to the ground. He didn't single anyone out, but it seemed to me he was confronting some rampant egos. I think it was at that meeting that he absolutely forbid anyone to put his name on that building.

Linda.......I vaguely remember this meeting as well.

But surely.........wierwille was deceiving himself if he thought for one minute that ONE or TWO meetings would solve deeply-embedded doctrinal/practical errors. Surely, he would know the Scriptures of how men of God, prophets, stood in the gap and interceded for God.......month after month, year after year. Surely, wierwille would have known that if the trustees were deceived that it would permeate the whole ministry.

And yes, I remember very well all those ministry events in 1982, 83, 84.......the High Country Caravan rehearsals and showings at the New Bremen Cultural Center. I remember the Ambassador One flights bringing folks into hq from the field. I remember Sound Out '84....and how VPW and Mrs. were in the spotlight day after day and he was "so proud of his kids in Way Productions to be performing at the Grand Ole Opry" (the fulfillment of a long-awaited desire of vp's).

Then, the preparations for a motorcycle caravan from Ohio to Montana to Canada and back....with Elena Whites1de accompanying wierwille's motor coach and documenting the trip for a Way Mag article. Yes, another way mag with wierwille on the cover. I remember these things and how these all-consuming events were the thrust of wierwille's agenda.

I remember seeing wierwille on stage at Corps Week 1984......overseeing the ordinations. He was given the podium and main stage on this night of nights, in front of the "entire" corps and clergy household. Wierwille had command of his faculties and could have blistered our ears with confrontaion if he had wanted to.

But.........CONFRONTATION, the kind where "the Lord speaks via his mighty men".......??? No. Not hardly. The silence, for the most part, was deafening. The twi machinery just kept on rolling.......and the business of selling twi programs, tapes, classes, and publications was the order of the day.

But then.......why should I have expected wierwille to rise to the occasion when he had wallowed in sin for decades..........????????????????

Silly me. :)

[Georgio Jessio]

True - but it DID get Loy Boy an excuse to hang around a bunch of women with great bodies. Heck, he even had them fawning on him with some lame excuse that the minister would be the object of love or some such nonsense.

That's where Gates has it all wrong! He's still a nerd.

Loy got to be a rock star (ummm ballerina) for Jesus WITH groupies! I stand corrected.

[skyrider]

I thought I'd add a couple of thoughts from a post I made over a year ago on an old thread entitled "VPW, Cancer and Gartmore". This is talking about the opening night of our first year in residence Family Corps XI, August 1984. I think you'll see a little perspective of his concerns for some of his pet programs in my post. This is just months before he died and he was already quite ill:

[/size]

jardinero......thanks for posting this.

Isn't it rather bizarre that a "christian ministry" did not inform us that twi's founding president was very ill and diagnosed with cancer?????

Did they NOT want us to find out that wierwille had cancer?? Did they want us to think that wierwille had strong believing?? Did they NOT want us to see the fallacy of cancer being a devil spirit??

Or, that the "mog" was walking in darkness and therefore, didn't receive God's deliverance...??

Just another twist in the twilight zone of this cult.

[A la prochaine]

Sky and Linda,

You mentioned the meeting with VP and the staff where he says... if the auditorium doesn't stand for the word...he'd rather see it burn down.

This sounds like everything else VP did and said. He'd say these GRANDIOSE statements ... for shock value i'm convinced to make himself look more "SPIRITUAL" and make others believe he was getting the 'GREEN LIGHT' and we all missed it AGAIN.

Just like his epitaph... I WISH I WERE THE MAN I KNEW TO BE ...

sounds all humble and pious... but deep down inside for him I think it was just a manipulation tool to control the masses.

Haven't read this whole thread in detail, but more and more I believe VP was a master salesmen and was good at twisting and turning things around to make himself look like THE GUY for all times.

He had about as much humility as Madonna.

He boasted of his works, his abilities and his past accomplishments to make sure we all knew WHO he was (or thought he was). It was a smoke screen... the whole thing. That's the way I see it today.

Edited July 9, 2006 by A la prochaine

[ex10]

Maybe it's just me, and I know I am a total wuss, but I think there was a part of him that meant it. All the true stuff he said.

Unpopular view around here, I know. But I think that he knew better, on some level, than what he lived. It's just me, but that's what I think.

I think he spent his whole life struggling, living between what he knew, and what was possible, and what he lived.

That's my own conclusion, having known him. Maybe some want to argue about it, but I've had alot of time to think about it, and many coversations over the years.

It's a very sad story, really. It's all very complicated, but oh so simple at the same time.

[Linda Z]

ex10, I agree with you.

He screwed up...badly...and hurt people in the process. But I do believe he believed in what he taught and believed he could help people with it. Dave Anderson (before he was run off by a few people who mercilessly mocked him for some of his alternative medicine opinions) used to say where VP went wrong was believing his own PR. Power, even the amount of power a big fish in a small pond gets, does corrupt.

A la, I'm familiar with VP's bravado, but this really wasn't like that. It's very hard to find the words to explain to someone who wasn't there. He wasn't "working the crowd." I'd seen that enough to know the difference. I think it was genuine. And maybe it was too little too late, but it was a clear warning, to me. It made me sit up and take notice and ask myself where my head was: on God Almighty or on an organization? I don't know how to say it...it was an experience unlike any other I had when around him.

[A la prochaine]

ex-10 and linda z,

i wonder sometimes if you had the opportunity to be with this man today knowing what you know now about him if you would still feel the same way and see in the same light.

I don't mean to sound critical ... just trying to keep objective.

after all he was ONLY a man ... with many faults, who liked to convince people he was THE MAN! That takes alot of balls, alot of ego and not much else.

he certainly chose those he wanted around him...and the rest (like me and many many others) well, he just simply was too busy for. I'm sure your experiences were genuine...but unfortunately they were not the experiences most had sitting in a chair in an auditorium. he liked to keep his distance ... that I believe was a tactic in keeping his image unscathed.

spiritual man??? hmmmmmmmm ... i wonder???

[GrouchoMarxJr]

In my opinion, Wierwille never imagined that he would be "pushed aside" into the background and disregarded after Loy became president.

I think that the master conman finally realized that he had been conned himself. Nobody kissed his foot like Martindale did...that is, until Martindale had what he wanted, the "mantle"...then he turned on Wierwille like a mean dog.

Much of what Wierwiile said after that was probably nothing more than sour grapes.

If I had the opprotunity to say anything to Wierwille today it would be "I want my money back!"

[Linda Z]

A la asked:

i wonder sometimes if you had the opportunity to be with this man today knowing what you know now about him if you would still feel the same way and see in the same light.

Good question. I know I would be PO'd at him re: some things I know now that I didn't know then.

I think I would have left twi at about the time I did, though, even if he'd lived and had still been running things at HQ. Being there for four years clued me in that it wasn't the Mecca I'd once thought it was, and that some of his behavior and decisions were responsible for that fact.

after all he was ONLY a man ... with many faults, who liked to convince people he was THE MAN! That takes alot of balls, alot of ego and not much else.

I never thought he was anything but "only a man." I never thought he was without faults. I knew he was a self-promoting showman and had a big ego. I disagree about the "not much else." I think he started out with a genuine ministry and got corrupted, and there were times when I saw the genuine shine through.

I've said it before, but this seems like a good place to repeat it: It's my opinion that the good things he did didn't excuse the wrong things he did, and that the wrong things he did didn't change the fact that sometimes he did good things. The man was a paradox. I'm glad it's God's job, and not mine, to sort it all out.

[templelady]

The Spoken rules are never the important ones Unless they agree with the unspoken rules. In VPW's case the unspoken rules were paramount.

1. As the MOG you are entitled to what ever you want whenever you want how you want.

2. any thing or any person that hinders or prevents the implementation of rule one must be either negated or eliminated.

LCM learned well

I remember reading a book on Mary Queen of Scots and why Elizabeth I of England finally sentenced her to death even though they were cousins and even though Elizabeth understood that by attacking a crowned ruler she was putting into questions the rights of all rulers of her time. "it is not prudent to permit a non-ruling ruler to survive"

As long as said ruler lives, as long as there remain those who are loyal to him/her, the present ruler can expect nothing but turmoil and insurrection --it is just that simple.

That's why presidents change cabinet members, CEO change vice presidents, etc etc -just too much undermining and grousing if the die hard loyalists remain especially if the leaving of the prior administration was under protest , duress or questionable.

[oldiesman]

... but I think there was a part of him that meant it. All the true stuff he said.

I agree.

[skyrider]

Well............"a part of him that meant it" doesn't even put him in the ballpark of qualifying as God's minister or overseer.

The "many parts of him" that were spent lusting after the flesh, and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life...... consumed his good intentions, imo.

Vpw should have been sitting in the church pews and heeding many of his plagerized sermons.

[WordWolf]

One of the things about dealing with real people-and not robots-

is that they can hold contradictory thoughts at the same time.

So,

vpw could-at least part of the time-

believe every word he was saying about the auditorium

needing to be about God and NOT people, even himself

and-at least part of the time-

see it as nothing less than his due that the auditorium

was named after him.

It's not that different from preaching God's love and grace

one afternoon, then drugging and raping a female that night.

None of that changes his SINCERITY.

As vpw HIMSELF said, the salesman who tries to sell you

the toothbrush with only one bristle, he has to be very

sincere when he's talking to you.

[dmiller]

Worth repeating ~~~

vpw could-at least part of the time-

believe every word he was saying about the auditorium

needing to be about God and NOT people, even himself

and-at least part of the time-

see it as nothing less than his due that the auditorium

was named after him.

[skyrider]

It's been awhile since I read that section on I Timothy 3.......qualifications of a faithful minister, an overseer. But I do recall how this chapter delved into proven ability, godly compassion, a faithful husband, good example to his family, behavior patterns, not a striker, not lashing out, etc.

Is there such a thing as an "on-again, off-again" true minister...???

[WordWolf]

Is there such a thing as an "on-again, off-again" true minister...???

According to vpw,

there is no such thing as an "on-again, off-again" true CHRISTIAN.

Luke 9:62. (KJV)

"But Jesus said to him,

'No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

[A la prochaine]

Sky, WW, Mr. Musicman,

Everyone of your posts I feel, should be shouted from the rooftops! (preferrably the rooftops in New Knoxville OH)

I believe VP was primarily concerned with IMAGE which would make complete sense to me since he had alot to hide from others therefore, image is all he had.

And in doing this, his 'SPIRITUALITY' was primarily based on a personae he desperately tried to ram down our throats. All of this reeks of a man who was works oriented and therefore IMHO the furthest thing that a true godly person should be aiming for.

[ex10]

I guess VP wasn't very good at renewing his mind.

[sprawled out]

there's something surreal about this whole discussion, when you consider that the whole thing was built, not on "truth," but on lies (the snowpumps, and therefore God's "promise") and deception (presenting others' work as his own). i DO think that a part of him believed it all, at least sometimes, but he couldn't have FORGOTTEN how it all started.

i remember seeing and hearing him, too. amazingly, the memories still tug at my heartstrings today. but based on what we now know, so much of it HAD TO BE AN ACT. a damn good act, for sure, but a put-on just the same. why didn't vp confront twi's straying from the truth? because "the truth" was NEVER his concern. "the ministry" (i.e., his thing, his monument, his power base) was. HE WAS A CHARLATAN. and that's the bottom line, isn't it?

[oldiesman]

Of some.

[skyrider]

there's something surreal about this whole discussion, when you consider that the whole thing was built, not on "truth," but on lies (the snowpumps, and therefore God's "promise") and deception (presenting others' work as his own). i DO think that a part of him believed it all, at least sometimes, but he couldn't have FORGOTTEN how it all started.

i remember seeing and hearing him, too. amazingly, the memories still tug at my heartstrings today. but based on what we now know, so much of it HAD TO BE AN ACT. a damn good act, for sure, but a put-on just the same. why didn't vp confront twi's straying from the truth? because "the truth" was NEVER his concern. "the ministry" (i.e., his thing, his monument, his power base) was. HE WAS A CHARLATAN. and that's the bottom line, isn't it?

Yeah, sprawled out........"the ministry" was top priority.

When wierwille came to Gunnison to be at our graduating corps week, one of those nights we had a campfire night owl. With grandiose building plans for Camp Gunnison.....wierwille spouted for about an hour of an overlooking restaurant near the water tower, a larger bridge across the gunnison river, more cabins and way-retirees living out their golden years. The ministry...the ministry...the ministry.

Even at the time, I thought it was so wierwillish. I mean, it WAS our completion of four years of "christian" training.....and we were moving on with OUR lives.

Little did I know......in a few short years, wierwille would be in his grave. And, all those grandiose "visions" of his fell to the ground and buried with him.

[Sunesis]

Excellent point Sprawled Out - it truly was the "ministry" VPW was concerned with, the "truth" was secondary. Everything that was done, at the root of it, was to build the ministry.

[skyrider]

Ironic.....isn't it?

Wierwille's implementing of the corps program.......to further the "ministry."

Wierwille's focus to discipline each corps person.....to go forth for the "ministry."

Wierwille's corps principle #3......to bring in monies and further his "ministry."

And yet, the corps poem stated....Not ancient walls or ivory-mantled towers,

where dull denominations rule with heavy hand believers' deeply springing powers,

etc. etc.

What a paradox....twi became the self-serving rulership that it (seemingly) detested.

[sprawled out]

exactly, skyrider! man, i hadn't thought of that "poem" in forever: "where dull denominations rule with heavy hand." HA! that's just what it became. amazing. maybe peepee was a prophet--foretelling his own cult's demise!

[WordWolf]

Ironic.....isn't it?

Wierwille's implementing of the corps program.......to further the "ministry."

Wierwille's focus to discipline each corps person.....to go forth for the "ministry."

Wierwille's corps principle #3......to bring in monies and further his "ministry."

And yet, the corps poem stated....Not ancient walls or ivory-mantled towers,

where dull denominations rule with heavy hand believers' deeply springing powers,

etc. etc.

What a paradox....twi became the self-serving rulership that it (seemingly) detested.

Thought you'd like to know.

HCW informed me that this poem WAS properly attributed.

However,

I myself never heard the attribution,

and I bet most of you didn't.

"What constitutes a school?

Not ancient halls and ivy-mantled towers,

Where dull traditions rule

With heavy hand youth's lightly springing powers;

Not spacious pleasure courts,

And lofty temples of athletic fame,

Where devotees of sports

Mistake a pastime for life's highest aim;

Not fashion, nor renown

Of wealthy patronage and rich estate;

No, none of these can crown

A school with light and make it truly great.

But masters, strong and wise,

Who teach because they love the teacher's task,

And find their richest prize

In eyes that open and in minds that ask.

(Henry Van Dyke)

=================

Seems that's not the entire thing, either.

(Henry Van Dyke)

"What constitutes a school?

Not ancient halls and ivy-mantled towers,

Where dull traditions rule With heavy hand youth's lightly springing powers;

Not spacious pleasure courts, And lofty temples of athletic fame,

Where devotees of sports Mistake a pastime for life's highest aim;

Not fashion, nor renown Of wealthy patronage and rich estate;

No, none of these can crown A school with light and make it truly great.

But masters, strong and wise, Who teach because they love the teacher's task,

And find their richest prize In eyes that open and in minds that ask;

And boys, with heart aglow To try their youthful vigour on their work,

Eager to learn and grow, And quick to hate a coward or a shirk:

These constitute a school,--

A vital forge of weapons keen and bright,

Where living sword and tool Are tempered for true toil or noble fight!

But let not wisdom scorn The hours of pleasure in the playing fields:

There also strength is born, And every manly game a virtue yields.

Fairness and self-control, Good-humour, pluck, and patience in the race,

Will make a lad heart-whole To win with honour, lose without disgrace.

Ah, well for him who gains In such a school apprenticeship to life:

With him the joy of youth remains In later lessons and in larger strife!"

==========

If we'd had the internet back in the days of twi, vpw would have

been SO pinched.