It's been a long time since I met Research Geek (I doubt he remembers); but I thought he was pursuing an advanced degree in Aramaic at U of Chicago at the time (ca. 1980). Whether or not he had an advanced degree before joining TWI, I would consider him a scholar. I imagine Catcup would, too; perhaps it was spousely modesty that she mentioned someone else!
Oh good grief. I think it's fairly obvious that the touting of the way as a "biblical research ministry," was not true. Pretty much nobody involved with the founding of The Way, Inc. was a "biblical scholar."
Maybe some really smart people got involved, and moved on to other endeavers post way. But that's about as good as it gets, Mark O, as far as I can see.
Hate to be such a realist, but hey, can't help it. :B)
Rejection from a private seminary for doctinal cause would not be comparable to barring children from certain public schools solely on racial grounds. But Cynic advocated a stronger disclaimer, not rejection, so Garth's whole argument is against a strawman of his own construction.
You are partly correct. Altho' Cynic does advocate a stronger disclaimer rather than rejection, that isn't the whole of his argument, as the following remark of his shows:
If the folks at RTS are going to admit Socinian/Unitarian polemicists to the seminary, they need, at the very least, to intensify quite significantly their disclaimer.
IF the folks at RTS are going to admit Schoenheit, they need AT THE VERY LEAST, to intensify their disclaimer. Ie., it's quite obvious that he doesn't want unitarians to be admitted to RTS, but if they are, yadayadayada.
That 'strawman' you refer to, is but a rendering I make of someone who has a VERY strong aversion of unitarians or those who do not accept Christ's divinity, and who are public about saying so, and why. There are quite a number of people who have that rigid mindset.
I, on the other hand, have come to see such arguments (and I see the pro-'biblical unitarian' argument, and the supposed importance of his non-divinity the same way, much to the chagrin of certain 'biblical unitarians') as being less and less important to the real scheme of things. They do nothing to solve real world problems, and have done nothing to help advance society.
Like I said, its an argument that only concerns ecclesiastical, academic old farts (and their middle aged dweeb groupie rejects from TWI, ... hint hint).
<_<
And yes, its true that rejection from a private seminary does not in the real world equate to the barring kids from public schools based on racial grounds. If you read my first usage of it, it was meant as a satirical jab likening his stance to Wallace's from a humorous standpoint. He was the one to took that ball and ran with it beyond its scope.
Was he the eminent scholar before he got involved with TWI or did he become one while in TWI or did he become one AFTER he left TWI?
Before Dan became involved with TWI he was NOT a scholar of any kind. He told me he dropped out of high school and faked his way into the Carolina University that accepted him, AFTER he was in TWI. I met him in South Carolina right after he was accepted (this would be 1973 or 1974) and he told me he wanted to go to school to study Greek. So from that point he began legitimate studies in his field. It was years later at the University of Chicago when we were roommates, where he studied the languages of Greek, Syriac, and Arabic, that the seeds of true scholarship were planted. It had NOTHING to do with TWI.
It was at the U of C that we learned what real scholarship and research involved. It was when we tried to apply THOSE principles of research and academic excellence insisde TWI that all of us became unwelcome at TWI. Dan was a scholar at that time, yes. Voobus recognized his potential and took him under his wing to personally mentor, and this continued until the end of the professor's life. Voobus was actually looking for someone to replace himself, and in Dan, saw that person. He even accompanied Dan to TWCE at one point to address The Way Corps. Dan was (and we all were) foolish enough to believe that TWI was on the verge of really becoming a legitimate player in real biblical studies. However, it was not to be. VPW just wanted him there for show, and to make an impression on Voobus. For VPW it was a self-serving act.
There is no possible way to become an "eminent scholar" while still IN TWI, because to be eminent is to be recognized publicly for your work in a very positive way by those who are already expert in the field, and to do so, you must have academic freedom. TWI was never a legitimate expert in any field, and has never been known for its academic freedom. However, Dan's work was already becoming known through his work with Voobus. Dan's work was recognized publicly by TWI, but not in a positive way. He was given a public bum's rush by TWI when he tried to pursue true research. It was not until AFTER HE LEFT TWI that he was free to be able to continue his work on a large scale that he began in Chicago, and then walk in the academic steps of Dr. Voobus. He is the man to fill those shoes now, and he has earned it by hard, legitimate work.
There is no possible way to become an "eminent scholar" while still IN TWI, because to be eminent is to be recognized publicly for your work in a very positive way by those who are already expert in the field, and to do so, you must have academic freedom. TWI was never a legitimate expert in any field, and has never been known for its academic freedom. However, Dan's work was already becoming known through his work with Voobus. Dan's work was recognized publicly by TWI, but not in a positive way. He was given a public bum's rush by TWI when he tried to pursue true research. It was not until AFTER HE LEFT TWI that he was free to be able to continue his work on a large scale that he began in Chicago, and then walk in the academic steps of Dr. Voobus. He is the man to fill those shoes now, and he has earned it by hard, legitimate work.
Catcup,
I believe you hit the nail on the head!
For the same reason, I highly doubt that a "scholar" would ever have bought into the Wierwille theology. '
How many books of the bible were written by "scholars or theo's or what ever the proper term for their day was?
Yes, I'm an "innie" but only half way in at this time. Or should I say mostly out.
I read some, but not all, of the books vpw was accused of taking for his own. Not side by side or anything but I could see a lot of similiarity(sp) and ideas but not outright stolen works. DISCLAIMER: I'm still working on disecting all the vpw stuff so don't pounce to hard on me. I didn't say I've read everything, either!!!
Anyway, none of the works by these other men really put it all together for me like vpw and not get bored out of my mind by the very strict language usage. I was a teenager when I got in!!!! I needed clear and easy but exciting information.
I lived in a town with one of the largest baptist seminary schools in the nation. I met quite a few of them because I worked and lived near the school. I found that most of them don't really believe in God or that the bible is His word. The whole point of all this learned ed. was to argue and discredit each other or anyone else who would step into the ring.
The awesome things God had written in there for his children to be success or what he did for them meant NOTHING. It was all about who could prove to have the superior knowledge to win a debate.
I know that's not true for everyone and that's not fair to throw them into one big lump. Because of those experience's, I discredit that education as being the most important.
Paisano ....... Welcome to GSC!!!! Is your name Itailiano? Hey, Mambo, mambo Itailiano......
I've read through most of this thread and I have to tell you to beware, get some tough skin, and let the water roll off your back. Especially, when you make sense because the usual spotters don't like it.
I'm pointing my fingers at people who pounce without fully reading posts OR who jump full throttle to take your knee caps off by pointing out your bad grammar OR disect your post with very harsh, shallow, and sometimes pointless little victories.
Those are just bitter and cynical rantings from people who have a great need of healing in their life and are not pursuing that need. Otherwise, "THE TRUTH" of what's being said on this site would be worded differently, it would be toned differenlty etc. - wouldn't it? ESPECIALLY, FOR A NEWBIE!!!!!!!!
The heart would show through in the writing of someone who wanted to HELP, who knew the correct info to share to help other people get deliverance from a horrible cult experience, etc.
The heart would be to help a fellow member see the light from someone who could help peal off the layers without stripping them down to the core and nit picking everything he posted.
Maybe word wolf should win the pole of the next prez of twi because I sure the he11 feel like I'm still there.
How many books of the bible were written by "scholars or theo's or what ever the proper term for their day was?
They also didn't misrepresent themselves as being 'scholars' either. Even Amos said he didn't know why chose him. Big difference, imo.
Yes, I'm an "innie" but only half way in at this time. Or should I say mostly out.
I read some, but not all, of the books vpw was accused of taking for his own. Not side by side or anything but I could see a lot of similiarity(sp) and ideas but not outright stolen works. DISCLAIMER: I'm still working on disecting all the vpw stuff so don't pounce to hard on me. I didn't say I've read everything, either!!!
On here and on John Juedes site there is documentation of side by side forgeries. Juedes has a booklet that details all the plaigarism he found that you can buy for $2.00. I dont have the link but someone should.
Anyway, none of the works by these other men really put it all together for me like vpw and not get bored out of my mind by the very strict language usage. I was a teenager when I got in!!!! I needed clear and easy but exciting information.
The sad thing is that vee pee took from these men, but then he added, subtracted and/or twisted it to fit his own desires. Not everything he stole was "truth" or correct and then he just made it worse by mixing it with his lies.
I lived in a town with one of the largest baptist seminary schools in the nation. I met quite a few of them because I worked and lived near the school. I found that most of them don't really believe in God or that the bible is His word. The whole point of all this learned ed. was to argue and discredit each other or anyone else who would step into the ring.
The awesome things God had written in there for his children to be success or what he did for them meant NOTHING. It was all about who could prove to have the superior knowledge to win a debate.
I know that's not true for everyone and that's not fair to throw them into one big lump. Because of those experience's, I discredit that education as being the most important.
I think you'll have no problem with folks agreeing with you there, BUT once someone has mastered Greek, Hebrew, theological studies, it's very, very easy to see that vee pee was full of sh1t - that's why there's no record of any true scholars (folks who know their stuff, whether they believe it or not, whether they learned it for honest reasons or not) jumping ship to join up with vee pee and his "cutting edge research".
There are threads here on Problems with the Blue Book - an in depth discussion of the problems, lies and errors in PFAL as well as many of the other doctrines of TWI. If you're interested, I'll see if I can pull them up. :)
I've read through most of this thread and I have to tell you to beware, get some tough skin, and let the water roll off your back. Especially, when you make sense because the usual spotters don't like it.
Yeah, right! Like pointing out the fraud, manipulations, sexual abuse, vicious intimidations, etc., etc., by VPW, LCM, many goosestepping Way Corp and other leaders, ... is our way of not making sense. <_<
Those are just bitter and cynical rantings from people who have a great need of healing in their life and are not pursuing that need.
Ie., they are daring, after years of fearful silence, daring to speak up about all the garbage that went on in TWI, and little minkey here is getting his cute cap out of place about it.
Maybe word wolf should win the pole of the next prez of twi because I sure the he11 feel like I'm still there.
Minkey has a special angst towards Wordwolf because of WW's rather effective and very informative approach of stripping off all the dogmatic/practical flaws of TWI for all to see.
In other words, djs is finally finding out that TWI wasn't that Great Vehicle of God's Word that he always believed it to be. ..... Guess what Virginia! No, there is no Santa Claus!
Belle - thank you that was a very informative post. It was very good and I appreciate the info. I'm still thinking about what direction I want to go, to peal off the next layer. I'll let you know when I'm ready for the info you offered.
That was a great example of how to..... let me see how was it said........very effective way of stripping off the layers......... and yet I don't feel my knee caps broken at all.
Dear Mr. Garth,
This is a classic example of not reading someone's post fully and jumping with emotion.
I never really said WHAT Paisano made sense about. Yet, you jumped and reamed me for not agreeing with letting the truth about vpw, lcm, and twi be fully known. If you really read my post you would see this point. Maybe, you could go back and re-read it and not let your emotions trigger as quickly.
As for .........how did you say it......... something on the lines of ww's very effective way of stripping twi's flaw's for all to see.......
Again - if you read my post - again you'll see that I didn't have a problem with ww letting the truth come out - but rather the description I gave above about the sometimes pettiness in the way it is carried out.
Like I tell my very intelligent, energetic, sometimes naughty children - If only you could use your forces for good not destruction. It appears to me that a lot of the time ww ( and others) like to personally attack the poster with useless, mean dissection.
I'm trying to say you can effectively do the stripping without the destructive bantering. Hince - the bitter and cynical part.
P.S I am on softer side of the antamony scale. And what is a minkey - I couldn't find a definition anywhere?
How many books of the bible were written by "scholars or theo's or what ever the proper term for their day was?
Yes, I'm an "innie" but only half way in at this time. Or should I say mostly out.
I read some, but not all, of the books vpw was accused of taking for his own. Not side by side or anything but I could see a lot of similiarity(sp) and ideas but not outright stolen works. DISCLAIMER: I'm still working on disecting all the vpw stuff so don't pounce to hard on me. I didn't say I've read everything, either!!!
Anyway, none of the works by these other men really put it all together for me like vpw and not get bored out of my mind by the very strict language usage. I was a teenager when I got in!!!! I needed clear and easy but exciting information.
I lived in a town with one of the largest baptist seminary schools in the nation. I met quite a few of them because I worked and lived near the school. I found that most of them don't really believe in God or that the bible is His word. The whole point of all this learned ed. was to argue and discredit each other or anyone else who would step into the ring.
The awesome things God had written in there for his children to be success or what he did for them meant NOTHING. It was all about who could prove to have the superior knowledge to win a debate.
I know that's not true for everyone and that's not fair to throw them into one big lump. Because of those experience's, I discredit that education as being the most important.
There are two things for you to consider, djs:
- First of all, Christ promised (in Mt. 16:18) that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.
- Secondly, for Wierwillian theology to be true, the student MUST believe that the gates of Hell prevailed for approximately 1,800 years. ( "I'll teach you the Bible like it hasn't been known since the first century church" or something along those lines)
Now whether we are talking about renound theologians or mere inspired creatures, one of the two statements would have to be true. They are mutually exclusive. Now we can go through the Trinity, Are the Dead Alive Now, and so on and so forth, but the place to do so is down in Doctrinal, not in this thread. The bottom line is that one of the two must be correct. Not both. (Yes, Garth, I realize that to non-theists, and to non-Christians, neither one is correct...but that's a different argument)
This thread is a derivative of the "PFAL-Colored Glasses" thread down in Doctrinal. You may wish to present your arguments down there. Just a suggestion...not an attack.
DJS, I stand corrected then as concerning your approach. I initially thought that you were Yet Another VPW apologist deriding those who have been abused by VPW and his goosesteppers in TWI, and who have been speaking out against what VPW was and what he did, ranging from using appeals for 'forgiveness' to "Hey, the man's dead. Let's move on!" to other tactics, ... all in order to whitewash that kraut's reputation.
I see now that you aren't doing that. My apologies then.
MarkO,
Setting aside the stupidity of VPW's claim of his 'receiving the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century church' yadayada, I got a question for you.
How is it having 'the gates of hell prevailing against the Church' synonamous with the church (either as a group or with significant individuals) getting some or other parts (major or minor) of 'the Truth' wrong? If interpreted that way, ie.,
the gates of hell not prevailing = the church having the doctrine (or the practice thereof) right with no major variation thereof
formula, then I can think of many instances in history that would, at least, put a _major_ question of doubt over that equation.
True, VPW's claim to be the resetting of the church back on course perse has been proven seriously f***ed up, ... but given human nature to screw things up, as well as cover up their mistakes do to pride and arrogance (and this would necessarily include the humans that wear the expensive robes and trappings that indicate their leadership in said church), how can you be so sure that the church has gotten it faithfully right over the past 2000 years? ... And simply because of some verses that you mention and the interpretation thereof?
I know that I'm not a believer anymore, and appeals to spiritual/biblical/ecclesiastical authority now means nothing to me, but I pose this question to see your logic regarding it. Plus, I think that questions like this can provide a good test to see how true biblical scholars handle them.
DJS, I stand corrected then as concerning your approach. I initially thought that you were Yet Another VPW apologist deriding those who have been abused by VPW and his goosesteppers in TWI, and who have been speaking out against what VPW was and what he did, ranging from using appeals for 'forgiveness' to "Hey, the man's dead. Let's move on!" to other tactics, ... all in order to whitewash that kraut's reputation.
I see now that you aren't doing that. My apologies then.
MarkO,
Setting aside the stupidity of VPW's claim of his 'receiving the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century church' yadayada, I got a question for you.
How is it having 'the gates of hell prevailing against the Church' synonamous with the church (either as a group or with significant individuals) getting some or other parts (major or minor) of 'the Truth' wrong? If interpreted that way, ie.,
the gates of hell not prevailing = the church having the doctrine (or the practice thereof) right with no major variation thereof
formula, then I can think of many instances in history that would, at least, put a _major_ question of doubt over that equation.
True, VPW's claim to be the resetting of the church back on course perse has been proven seriously f***ed up, ... but given human nature to screw things up, as well as cover up their mistakes do to pride and arrogance (and this would necessarily include the humans that wear the expensive robes and trappings that indicate their leadership in said church), how can you be so sure that the church has gotten it faithfully right over the past 2000 years? ... And simply because of some verses that you mention and the interpretation thereof?
I know that I'm not a believer anymore, and appeals to spiritual/biblical/ecclesiastical authority now means nothing to me, but I pose this question to see your logic regarding it. Plus, I think that questions like this can provide a good test to see how true biblical scholars handle them.
Actually, if you take a look at it, there have been relatively few changes in time.
The beliefs have developed, become more refined, and have been interpreted in accord with the times, but they all can be traced back to the beginning (any doctrinal document...at least modern ones...are all extensively footnoted to show this history)
The liturgies have developed, but, again, they contain all the essential elements are there and have been since the time of the apostles (the earliest liturgy I've seen was from the second century...and a brief summary I've seen documented from the first)
The succession of the bishops can likewise be traced back to the apostles...and, again, is documented as such.
That's why I can say that the gates of Hell haven't prevailed against it.
Even look at the Protestant groups: even they, who utterly rejected the above, in the vast, vast, vast majority of the cases still accept the principles stated in the Creed of Constantinople/Nicea. (Even the vast, vast majority of those who say they accept no creed).
And please don't get me wrong. I am not saying there weren't missteps, mistakes, and so on. But the essential elements of doctrine, the essential elements of the liturgy, the apostolic succession were preserved...
So then we have some half-trained country pastor with a diploma mill doctorate who decides that he knows better. He is too good to adopt one particular theological system...and why? because "God" is going to teach him "the word" like it hasn't been known since the first century. (Never mind that the canon of scripture wasn't even codified until several hundred years AFTER the first century)
And this ASSUMES that it was all lost. Except for this half-trained country pastor who is going to restore everything back how it should be. Uh huh.
The whole point of all this learned ed. was to argue and discredit each other or anyone else who would step into the ring.
It was all about who could prove to have the superior knowledge to win a debate.
djs... I'm not picking on you but these two statements you made concerning the seminarians in your town jumped out at me because this was a large part of PFAL and TWI. Think back on PFAL, the asides and the stories... they're almost all directed at "they're wrong and I'm right" type of things... making fun of other religions... these are all personal views of veepee that he wove in there with the "truth" that he was presenting...
he wasn't much different than those seminarians you describe except maybe in the manner he treated his flock...
quote: Christianity is about deliverance it always has been and always will be.
Anybody who has genuinely experienced deliverance from God can see right through all the finger pointing.
As far as the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, I think of the catholic church not being able to extinguish Christianity despite all their efforts during the dark ages.
As to the topic of this thread, there was a guy named Jim Lowry, a Presbyterian minister, who spoke at Heartbeat festivals and ROAs in the late 70s. He was never really touted as a scholar, but he did say that in all the seminary training he had, that nobody ever told him he had seed in him until VP.
Mark Olthouse Jr. son of the late Mark Olthouse and brother of the former Ambassador 1 pilot, got a degree in something from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI. They gave him a hard time about it because he took some Greek classes from TWI, but they gave him the degree anyway.
I remember LCM saying in the late 80s/early 90s that TWI had no recognized scholars or theologians and that he didn't care. :)
Thanks Garth for that - I guess I got fed up with posts being taken wrong and people getting slammed. I don't think I'll be reading an entire thread at one time because of the large dose of yuck that can sometimes build. I just got fed up!!! IMO - it discredits what this site is suppose to do for people. It discredits the info. and the stories of the people here - for people like me who are trying to make sense of it all.
Tom - I got in twi in the mid 90's at the ripe old age of 16. My fellowship was amazing - I experienced none of what the rest of the ministry was facing. It was like my own little cocoon. I didn't start seeing or feeling what you described until several years later. But yes, you're right about the we are better and know more attitude. I experience all of that in the lcm erra and had no idea that it stemmed from vpw until I came into contact with this site.
Neither end of the rope is what God would want for his people. The educated ones superior and only use His word to soley debate to prove their knowledge. Or the ones like vpw who twist it for gain and their own selfish pleasure.
I know that's not true for everyone and that's not fair to throw them into one big lump. Because of those experience's, I discredit that education as being the most important.
But if you are going to throw around your credentials and expect everyone to address you as "Doctor" you had damn well better have earned the title.
You get that title only through a rigorous process that proves your knowlege of the field, by proved and titled faculty from an accredited institution, and without plagiary. Victor never did that.
Wierwille bypassed the most rigorous examination of his ideas by using what has been described as a diploma mill, if not a highly unusual means of obtaining his degree. And if you will continue a close examination of Victor's works, you will find that he copied wholesale, he did not just tweak a word here and there.
That kind of plagiarism would get you thrown out of ANY major academic institution.
For the above reasons, education was NEVER important on VPW's agenda. He took the easiest route, but demanded the highest respect he did not legitimately earn. And in that light, he promoted those ideas within TWI. Because VPW discredited education, many people within TWI do as well. So this does not surprise me. I just pray that as you ease yourself out of TWI and more closely examine what was taught, you will see the value of a REAL education.
It IS possible to have both a heart for God AND an advanced degree-- I know plenty who do. Having both are are NOT mutually exclusive, and actually help you minster to Gods people-- and avoid pitfalls like falling for the huckster VPW was.
Neither end of the rope is what God would want for his people. The educated ones superior and only use His word to soley debate to prove their knowledge. Or the ones like vpw who twist it for gain and their own selfish pleasure.
Again, there are more than those two alternatives.
quote: if those evil catholics hadnt been the ones to preserve it all through that period.
Oh. God can't protect his word? Preserved? Yeah and they didn't let common people read it for themselves. They must've preserved it just in case someone like Martin Luther actually read it and challenged them doctrinally.
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GeorgeStGeorge
It's been a long time since I met Research Geek (I doubt he remembers); but I thought he was pursuing an advanced degree in Aramaic at U of Chicago at the time (ca. 1980). Whether or not he had an advanced degree before joining TWI, I would consider him a scholar. I imagine Catcup would, too; perhaps it was spousely modesty that she mentioned someone else!
George
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Oakspear
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ex10
Oh good grief. I think it's fairly obvious that the touting of the way as a "biblical research ministry," was not true. Pretty much nobody involved with the founding of The Way, Inc. was a "biblical scholar."
Maybe some really smart people got involved, and moved on to other endeavers post way. But that's about as good as it gets, Mark O, as far as I can see.
Hate to be such a realist, but hey, can't help it. :B)
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LG
Rejection from a private seminary for doctinal cause would not be comparable to barring children from certain public schools solely on racial grounds. But Cynic advocated a stronger disclaimer, not rejection, so Garth's whole argument is against a strawman of his own construction.
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GarthP2000
LG,
You are partly correct. Altho' Cynic does advocate a stronger disclaimer rather than rejection, that isn't the whole of his argument, as the following remark of his shows:
IF the folks at RTS are going to admit Schoenheit, they need AT THE VERY LEAST, to intensify their disclaimer. Ie., it's quite obvious that he doesn't want unitarians to be admitted to RTS, but if they are, yadayadayada.
That 'strawman' you refer to, is but a rendering I make of someone who has a VERY strong aversion of unitarians or those who do not accept Christ's divinity, and who are public about saying so, and why. There are quite a number of people who have that rigid mindset.
I, on the other hand, have come to see such arguments (and I see the pro-'biblical unitarian' argument, and the supposed importance of his non-divinity the same way, much to the chagrin of certain 'biblical unitarians') as being less and less important to the real scheme of things. They do nothing to solve real world problems, and have done nothing to help advance society.
Like I said, its an argument that only concerns ecclesiastical, academic old farts (and their middle aged dweeb groupie rejects from TWI, ... hint hint).
<_<
And yes, its true that rejection from a private seminary does not in the real world equate to the barring kids from public schools based on racial grounds. If you read my first usage of it, it was meant as a satirical jab likening his stance to Wallace's from a humorous standpoint. He was the one to took that ball and ran with it beyond its scope.
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Catcup
Before Dan became involved with TWI he was NOT a scholar of any kind. He told me he dropped out of high school and faked his way into the Carolina University that accepted him, AFTER he was in TWI. I met him in South Carolina right after he was accepted (this would be 1973 or 1974) and he told me he wanted to go to school to study Greek. So from that point he began legitimate studies in his field. It was years later at the University of Chicago when we were roommates, where he studied the languages of Greek, Syriac, and Arabic, that the seeds of true scholarship were planted. It had NOTHING to do with TWI.
It was at the U of C that we learned what real scholarship and research involved. It was when we tried to apply THOSE principles of research and academic excellence insisde TWI that all of us became unwelcome at TWI. Dan was a scholar at that time, yes. Voobus recognized his potential and took him under his wing to personally mentor, and this continued until the end of the professor's life. Voobus was actually looking for someone to replace himself, and in Dan, saw that person. He even accompanied Dan to TWCE at one point to address The Way Corps. Dan was (and we all were) foolish enough to believe that TWI was on the verge of really becoming a legitimate player in real biblical studies. However, it was not to be. VPW just wanted him there for show, and to make an impression on Voobus. For VPW it was a self-serving act.
There is no possible way to become an "eminent scholar" while still IN TWI, because to be eminent is to be recognized publicly for your work in a very positive way by those who are already expert in the field, and to do so, you must have academic freedom. TWI was never a legitimate expert in any field, and has never been known for its academic freedom. However, Dan's work was already becoming known through his work with Voobus. Dan's work was recognized publicly by TWI, but not in a positive way. He was given a public bum's rush by TWI when he tried to pursue true research. It was not until AFTER HE LEFT TWI that he was free to be able to continue his work on a large scale that he began in Chicago, and then walk in the academic steps of Dr. Voobus. He is the man to fill those shoes now, and he has earned it by hard, legitimate work.
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markomalley
Catcup,
I believe you hit the nail on the head!
For the same reason, I highly doubt that a "scholar" would ever have bought into the Wierwille theology. '
Thanks for the GREAT information!
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djs
How many books of the bible were written by "scholars or theo's or what ever the proper term for their day was?
Yes, I'm an "innie" but only half way in at this time. Or should I say mostly out.
I read some, but not all, of the books vpw was accused of taking for his own. Not side by side or anything but I could see a lot of similiarity(sp) and ideas but not outright stolen works. DISCLAIMER: I'm still working on disecting all the vpw stuff so don't pounce to hard on me. I didn't say I've read everything, either!!!
Anyway, none of the works by these other men really put it all together for me like vpw and not get bored out of my mind by the very strict language usage. I was a teenager when I got in!!!! I needed clear and easy but exciting information.
I lived in a town with one of the largest baptist seminary schools in the nation. I met quite a few of them because I worked and lived near the school. I found that most of them don't really believe in God or that the bible is His word. The whole point of all this learned ed. was to argue and discredit each other or anyone else who would step into the ring.
The awesome things God had written in there for his children to be success or what he did for them meant NOTHING. It was all about who could prove to have the superior knowledge to win a debate.
I know that's not true for everyone and that's not fair to throw them into one big lump. Because of those experience's, I discredit that education as being the most important.
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djs
Paisano ....... Welcome to GSC!!!! Is your name Itailiano? Hey, Mambo, mambo Itailiano......
I've read through most of this thread and I have to tell you to beware, get some tough skin, and let the water roll off your back. Especially, when you make sense because the usual spotters don't like it.
I'm pointing my fingers at people who pounce without fully reading posts OR who jump full throttle to take your knee caps off by pointing out your bad grammar OR disect your post with very harsh, shallow, and sometimes pointless little victories.
Those are just bitter and cynical rantings from people who have a great need of healing in their life and are not pursuing that need. Otherwise, "THE TRUTH" of what's being said on this site would be worded differently, it would be toned differenlty etc. - wouldn't it? ESPECIALLY, FOR A NEWBIE!!!!!!!!
The heart would show through in the writing of someone who wanted to HELP, who knew the correct info to share to help other people get deliverance from a horrible cult experience, etc.
The heart would be to help a fellow member see the light from someone who could help peal off the layers without stripping them down to the core and nit picking everything he posted.
Maybe word wolf should win the pole of the next prez of twi because I sure the he11 feel like I'm still there.
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Belle
They also didn't misrepresent themselves as being 'scholars' either.
Even Amos said he didn't know why chose him. Big difference, imo.
On here and on John Juedes site there is documentation of side by side forgeries. Juedes has a booklet that details all the plaigarism he found that you can buy for $2.00. I dont have the link but someone should.The sad thing is that vee pee took from these men, but then he added, subtracted and/or twisted it to fit his own desires. Not everything he stole was "truth" or correct and then he just made it worse by mixing it with his lies.
I think you'll have no problem with folks agreeing with you there, BUT once someone has mastered Greek, Hebrew, theological studies, it's very, very easy to see that vee pee was full of sh1t - that's why there's no record of any true scholars (folks who know their stuff, whether they believe it or not, whether they learned it for honest reasons or not) jumping ship to join up with vee pee and his "cutting edge research".
Once we took our PFAL Colored Glasses off, we could see it, too.
There are threads here on Problems with the Blue Book - an in depth discussion of the problems, lies and errors in PFAL as well as many of the other doctrines of TWI. If you're interested, I'll see if I can pull them up. :)
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GarthP2000
Little minkey (djs) sez,
Yeah, right! Like pointing out the fraud, manipulations, sexual abuse, vicious intimidations, etc., etc., by VPW, LCM, many goosestepping Way Corp and other leaders, ... is our way of not making sense. <_<Ie., they are daring, after years of fearful silence, daring to speak up about all the garbage that went on in TWI, and little minkey here is getting his cute cap out of place about it.
Minkey has a special angst towards Wordwolf because of WW's rather effective and very informative approach of stripping off all the dogmatic/practical flaws of TWI for all to see.
In other words, djs is finally finding out that TWI wasn't that Great Vehicle of God's Word that he always believed it to be. ..... Guess what Virginia! No, there is no Santa Claus!
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djs
Belle - thank you that was a very informative post. It was very good and I appreciate the info. I'm still thinking about what direction I want to go, to peal off the next layer. I'll let you know when I'm ready for the info you offered.
That was a great example of how to..... let me see how was it said........very effective way of stripping off the layers......... and yet I don't feel my knee caps broken at all.
Dear Mr. Garth,
This is a classic example of not reading someone's post fully and jumping with emotion.
I never really said WHAT Paisano made sense about. Yet, you jumped and reamed me for not agreeing with letting the truth about vpw, lcm, and twi be fully known. If you really read my post you would see this point. Maybe, you could go back and re-read it and not let your emotions trigger as quickly.
As for .........how did you say it......... something on the lines of ww's very effective way of stripping twi's flaw's for all to see.......
Again - if you read my post - again you'll see that I didn't have a problem with ww letting the truth come out - but rather the description I gave above about the sometimes pettiness in the way it is carried out.
Like I tell my very intelligent, energetic, sometimes naughty children - If only you could use your forces for good not destruction. It appears to me that a lot of the time ww ( and others) like to personally attack the poster with useless, mean dissection.
I'm trying to say you can effectively do the stripping without the destructive bantering. Hince - the bitter and cynical part.
P.S I am on softer side of the antamony scale. And what is a minkey - I couldn't find a definition anywhere?
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markomalley
There are two things for you to consider, djs:
- First of all, Christ promised (in Mt. 16:18) that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.
- Secondly, for Wierwillian theology to be true, the student MUST believe that the gates of Hell prevailed for approximately 1,800 years. ( "I'll teach you the Bible like it hasn't been known since the first century church" or something along those lines)
Now whether we are talking about renound theologians or mere inspired creatures, one of the two statements would have to be true. They are mutually exclusive. Now we can go through the Trinity, Are the Dead Alive Now, and so on and so forth, but the place to do so is down in Doctrinal, not in this thread. The bottom line is that one of the two must be correct. Not both. (Yes, Garth, I realize that to non-theists, and to non-Christians, neither one is correct...but that's a different argument)
This thread is a derivative of the "PFAL-Colored Glasses" thread down in Doctrinal. You may wish to present your arguments down there. Just a suggestion...not an attack.
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GarthP2000
First off,
DJS, I stand corrected then as concerning your approach. I initially thought that you were Yet Another VPW apologist deriding those who have been abused by VPW and his goosesteppers in TWI, and who have been speaking out against what VPW was and what he did, ranging from using appeals for 'forgiveness' to "Hey, the man's dead. Let's move on!" to other tactics, ... all in order to whitewash that kraut's reputation.
I see now that you aren't doing that. My apologies then.
MarkO,
Setting aside the stupidity of VPW's claim of his 'receiving the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century church' yadayada, I got a question for you.
How is it having 'the gates of hell prevailing against the Church' synonamous with the church (either as a group or with significant individuals) getting some or other parts (major or minor) of 'the Truth' wrong? If interpreted that way, ie.,
the gates of hell not prevailing = the church having the doctrine (or the practice thereof) right with no major variation thereof
formula, then I can think of many instances in history that would, at least, put a _major_ question of doubt over that equation.
True, VPW's claim to be the resetting of the church back on course perse has been proven seriously f***ed up, ... but given human nature to screw things up, as well as cover up their mistakes do to pride and arrogance (and this would necessarily include the humans that wear the expensive robes and trappings that indicate their leadership in said church), how can you be so sure that the church has gotten it faithfully right over the past 2000 years? ... And simply because of some verses that you mention and the interpretation thereof?
I know that I'm not a believer anymore, and appeals to spiritual/biblical/ecclesiastical authority now means nothing to me, but I pose this question to see your logic regarding it. Plus, I think that questions like this can provide a good test to see how true biblical scholars handle them.
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markomalley
Actually, if you take a look at it, there have been relatively few changes in time.
The beliefs have developed, become more refined, and have been interpreted in accord with the times, but they all can be traced back to the beginning (any doctrinal document...at least modern ones...are all extensively footnoted to show this history)
The liturgies have developed, but, again, they contain all the essential elements are there and have been since the time of the apostles (the earliest liturgy I've seen was from the second century...and a brief summary I've seen documented from the first)
The succession of the bishops can likewise be traced back to the apostles...and, again, is documented as such.
That's why I can say that the gates of Hell haven't prevailed against it.
Even look at the Protestant groups: even they, who utterly rejected the above, in the vast, vast, vast majority of the cases still accept the principles stated in the Creed of Constantinople/Nicea. (Even the vast, vast majority of those who say they accept no creed).
And please don't get me wrong. I am not saying there weren't missteps, mistakes, and so on. But the essential elements of doctrine, the essential elements of the liturgy, the apostolic succession were preserved...
So then we have some half-trained country pastor with a diploma mill doctorate who decides that he knows better. He is too good to adopt one particular theological system...and why? because "God" is going to teach him "the word" like it hasn't been known since the first century. (Never mind that the canon of scripture wasn't even codified until several hundred years AFTER the first century)
And this ASSUMES that it was all lost. Except for this half-trained country pastor who is going to restore everything back how it should be. Uh huh.
Hope that answers your question...
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Tom Strange
djs... I'm not picking on you but these two statements you made concerning the seminarians in your town jumped out at me because this was a large part of PFAL and TWI. Think back on PFAL, the asides and the stories... they're almost all directed at "they're wrong and I'm right" type of things... making fun of other religions... these are all personal views of veepee that he wove in there with the "truth" that he was presenting...
he wasn't much different than those seminarians you describe except maybe in the manner he treated his flock...
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johniam
quote: Christianity is about deliverance it always has been and always will be.
Anybody who has genuinely experienced deliverance from God can see right through all the finger pointing.
As far as the gates of hell not prevailing against the church, I think of the catholic church not being able to extinguish Christianity despite all their efforts during the dark ages.
As to the topic of this thread, there was a guy named Jim Lowry, a Presbyterian minister, who spoke at Heartbeat festivals and ROAs in the late 70s. He was never really touted as a scholar, but he did say that in all the seminary training he had, that nobody ever told him he had seed in him until VP.
Mark Olthouse Jr. son of the late Mark Olthouse and brother of the former Ambassador 1 pilot, got a degree in something from Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI. They gave him a hard time about it because he took some Greek classes from TWI, but they gave him the degree anyway.
I remember LCM saying in the late 80s/early 90s that TWI had no recognized scholars or theologians and that he didn't care. :)
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mstar1
??? YOU wouldnt have much of a Bible to read if those evil catholics hadnt been the ones to preserve it all through that period.
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GarthP2000
In his case, that's like an owner of a Yugo saying that he doesn't own a well designed, solid automobile and that he doesn't care.
Yuppers, that sounds about like Craig. ... Classic example of what a REAL bible teacher should be, ehhhh? NOT!
<_<
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djs
Thanks Garth for that - I guess I got fed up with posts being taken wrong and people getting slammed. I don't think I'll be reading an entire thread at one time because of the large dose of yuck that can sometimes build. I just got fed up!!! IMO - it discredits what this site is suppose to do for people. It discredits the info. and the stories of the people here - for people like me who are trying to make sense of it all.
Tom - I got in twi in the mid 90's at the ripe old age of 16. My fellowship was amazing - I experienced none of what the rest of the ministry was facing. It was like my own little cocoon. I didn't start seeing or feeling what you described until several years later. But yes, you're right about the we are better and know more attitude. I experience all of that in the lcm erra and had no idea that it stemmed from vpw until I came into contact with this site.
Neither end of the rope is what God would want for his people. The educated ones superior and only use His word to soley debate to prove their knowledge. Or the ones like vpw who twist it for gain and their own selfish pleasure.
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Catcup
But if you are going to throw around your credentials and expect everyone to address you as "Doctor" you had damn well better have earned the title.
You get that title only through a rigorous process that proves your knowlege of the field, by proved and titled faculty from an accredited institution, and without plagiary. Victor never did that.
Wierwille bypassed the most rigorous examination of his ideas by using what has been described as a diploma mill, if not a highly unusual means of obtaining his degree. And if you will continue a close examination of Victor's works, you will find that he copied wholesale, he did not just tweak a word here and there.
That kind of plagiarism would get you thrown out of ANY major academic institution.
For the above reasons, education was NEVER important on VPW's agenda. He took the easiest route, but demanded the highest respect he did not legitimately earn. And in that light, he promoted those ideas within TWI. Because VPW discredited education, many people within TWI do as well. So this does not surprise me. I just pray that as you ease yourself out of TWI and more closely examine what was taught, you will see the value of a REAL education.
It IS possible to have both a heart for God AND an advanced degree-- I know plenty who do. Having both are are NOT mutually exclusive, and actually help you minster to Gods people-- and avoid pitfalls like falling for the huckster VPW was.
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Catcup
Again, there are more than those two alternatives.
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excathedra
i think the roman catholic church is soulfully bankrupt well at least for my poor sorry soul
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johniam
quote: if those evil catholics hadnt been the ones to preserve it all through that period.
Oh. God can't protect his word? Preserved? Yeah and they didn't let common people read it for themselves. They must've preserved it just in case someone like Martin Luther actually read it and challenged them doctrinally.
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