And, after decades of teachings..........why the adolescent approach?
Really, God might have a different view on how adolesent the scriptures are!
Selective memory maybe? The Way was never intended to be a place to learn investment skills, or to teach job advancement that is not what it was for no more so that college is a place for deep spiritual learning. It adolesent to think that when one goes to the ice cream store that they will learn how to fix their car :blink: :blink:
There was the basic format which taught scriotures, taught respect for the scriptures...once that was established...the *wierd* teachings were pulled into play.
All the women of the kingdom...
All parts of the body equal....
Mogs must be served in order for them to serve the body...
Children are disposable....
Obedience is mandatory no matter how insane your leader sounds....
Yeah the teachings were inocuous at first...but they paved the way for the insane ones.
.......and that has WHAT to do with twi selective teachings?
What does what ever beef you have with the catholic church have to do with twi being wrong....
I dunno, some how I expect a teacher of the scriptures to be doing it for a more noble reason that trying to part me from my money or a sales comission :blink:
The catholic church does it...salesmen do it so it isn`t so bad that twi does it?
Dove--------If I may kindly point out, Skyrider did not call the scriptures adolesent . The context of the post suggests that the appoach was adolesent. Yes, it would be foolish to think that by going to the ice cream store one might aquire skills in car repair. May I again point out that we are not discussing car repair. We are discussing a class that promised to show us how Gods' Word could be used to benefit our lives. It many respects, it failed that mission. Even a brief review of "The Green Card" would prove that out.That has already been done here. The recent discussions of "harmony in the home" are just one example. But again, the focal point of this discussion should be whether or not there was selectivity in teachings. And yes, I'm interpreting that to mean the PFAL class as well since it was always referred to as the "foundational" class or a primer for subsequent teachings. If I am wrong in thinking that is what the original poster had in mind, I welcome the correction.
quote:Selective teachings were the name of the game.
Oh, the catholic church doesn't do that? Or everybody else? Even a clothing sales person will use "mind control" on you.
Well..........I expected MORE from "the true ministry" (cough, cough).
Didn't wierwille teach something about NOT reading around the truth.............yet, wierwille, in all his years, never approached the subject of adultery. Yep, he dodged SEVERAL topics, didn't he.??
Nope, but he DID have teachings about all of the women in the kingdom belonging to the king...that adultery was ok for David, it was killing the husband that was a problem..ayup
He DID teach that todays mogs were on par with old testament kings....
He DID teach that all parts of the body were equal...
He DID teach that mogs were to be obeyed....
He DID teach ll things are lawfull to them which are in Christ..
ie we can all screw like bunnies, drink our selves stupid, destroy a brother or sister in Christ and suffer no consequences.
We just weren`t spiritual enough to handle it, which was why we weren`t adept at picking up the more subtle aspects of these *freedoms in Christ*
Nope, but he DID have teachings about all of the women in the kingdom belonging to the king...that adultery was ok for David, it was killing the husband that was a problem..ayup
He DID teach that todays mogs were on par with old testament kings....
He DID teach that all parts of the body were equal...
He DID teach that mogs were to be obeyed....
He DID teach ll things are lawfull to them which are in Christ..
ie we can all screw like bunnies, drink our selves stupid, destroy a brother or sister in Christ and suffer no consequences.
We just weren`t spiritual enough to handle it, which was why we weren`t adept at picking up the more subtle aspects of these *freedoms in Christ*
Rascal,
Good points.
Yeah.......even pfal has the seeds of twisted statements wherein agendas followed.
…had the Catholic Church wished to eradicate the scriptures, they surely could have done so in the first 1500 years of their existence (particularly if the power and reach of the Church was as ubiqutous as some anti-Catholic writers claim it was).
If somebody was interested, they could read what I said in that thread. Honestly, I just don't care to go through it again…and again…and again.
If somebody was interested, they could read what I said in that thread. Honestly, I just don't care to go through it again…and again…and again.
Thanks, Mark......and your point is well taken.
The earlier comments on the Catholic Church were simply a diversion tactic...........much like the "bait and switch tactics" that many twi leadership developed thru the years.
The Way was never intended to be a place to learn investment skills, or to teach job advancement that is not what it was for no more so that college is a place for deep spiritual learning.
Ummm..... actually they DID teach about investment skills and money management as well as time management. :unsure: Not only did they teach these things, people were checked up on, micro-managed and even M&A for not following those teachings.
TWI didn't just teach and let folks make their own decisions like most churches do. Sure some churches teach against birth control, but they don't send leaders into your house to check for evidence of birth control. TWI took everything to the extremes - extreme control.
When TWI did decide to teach on something you either followed the company line to a "T" or you were out.
For most of the last 2000 years all Christian churches have been against artificial birth control.
In the first centuries of Christianity contraception (and abortion) were regarded as wrong because they were associated with paganism or with heretics such as the Gnostics, the Manichees and, in the middle ages, the Cathars.
Protestant attitudes to birth control began to change in the 19th century as theologians became more willing to accept that morality should come from the conscience of each individual rather than from outside teachings.
Another influence was the churches' changing attitude to sex.
Instead of seeing sex as something rather dangerous, many Christians began to regard sex as one of God's great gifts. Sex was a force that could preserve the institution of marriage if couples didn't feel threatened by the possibility of having children they could not support.
Influenced by this, the Protestant churches concluded that as the use of birth control often led to stronger families and better marriages, churches should let believers use birth control as their own consciences dictated.
This change came slowly - as late as 1908 the Lambeth Conference of the Anglican Church stated that birth control "cannot be spoken of without repugnance," and denounced it as "demoralising to character and hostile to national welfare."
But the Anglicans were the first church to issue a statement in favour of contraception, which they did at the Lambeth Conference in 1930 by a majority of 193 to 67. A group of American Protestants followed in 1931.
Nowadays most Protestant denominations permit artificial birth control to some extent.
Yeah, twi taught birth control, it was called *abortion* for those nasty little inconveniences that could pop up from time to time and interrupt or distract one from their spiritual duty.
How superior to the churches.
Another selective teaching....grow spiritually put your life on the line, enroll in the corpes...go wow...
What they DIDN`T tell you in these teachings of how necessary these programs were for your spiritual growth was that to do so would be the equivalent of a *vow* to God, the breaking of which would mean sure spiritual destruction.
One found out only after making the commitment what the further ramifications of THAT doctrine was.
Ummm..... actually they DID teach about investment skills and money management as well as time management. :unsure: Not only did they teach these things, people were checked up on, micro-managed and even M&A for not following those teachings.
yep, my finances were combed through for months because I was in debt and couldn't take an AC special until I was out.
investment strategies were taught, and taught aggressively.
1. invest in the ministry (give us all your money)
2. start your own business
3. don't bother to invest or save for retirement, you won't need to if you do 1. and 2. above.
I'm looking at $800 month at retirement from my SS benefits.
We are discussing a class that promised to show us how Gods' Word could be used to benefit our lives
Where are the teachings on........ 2) Purchasing the Right Home to Honor God, 3) Financial Investments and Freedom,
This does not sound like" We are discussing a class that promised to show us how Gods' Word could be used to benefit our lives" It sounds like what my example said you would not go to an ice cream store to learn about car repair, of course you might get lucky and find a car repairman there eating ice cream but generally if you want to learn auto repair skills you go to a school for that. Much is the same for investment skills.
I've generally found that the clue is in the title as to what it is for. The Way Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry. Now some may disagree that they accomplished the purpose, But I don't see The Way Biblical Research, Home buying training, and Fellowship Ministry. Nor do I see The Way Biblical Research, Financial planning school, and Fellowship Ministry. This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that?
That said on occasion sometimes people with knowledge in certain fields kindly shared it at times with others. I learned a few things about auto repair from the fleet crew at Emporia. I learned some floral tips that I did not know when I worked on the stage flowers with another florist for the Heartbeat Weekend in our Region. But I never assumed that they had some responsibility to teach me those things. There are other places to learn these things.
What they DIDN`T tell you in these teachings of how necessary these programs were for your spiritual growth was that to do so would be the equivalent of a *vow* to God, the breaking of which would mean sure spiritual destruction.
One found out only after making the commitment what the further ramifications of THAT doctrine was.
Yeah......these twi-programs were considered equivalent to "walking with God." And further......the corps program morphed into an indoctrination for mog-service and slave labor.
Funny.........how some of the vpw-apologists that come on these forums NEVER signed up for these programs, nor understand how crazy the absolute-power-mentality became in a controlled setting.
It's so EASY.........to stand at a distance and point fingers.
Dove--------Do you not realize that by only quoting part of what I said you have changed its' meaning?
This thread most certainly should include PFAL when citing examples because that is where the precedent was set for the practice of selectively teaching. And yes, PFAL did promise to help us find "a more abundant life' and certainly you must remember the teachings that ensued on the various meanings of the word "life". One , as you may recall, was "life in every respect". The ice cream store/car repair references serve no purpose other than to detract from the heart of this discussion which is "were or were not there examples of 'selective teaching' used in TWI? And no, I not talking about where someone may have presented secular teachings on subjects they thought might benefit the body. I am referring to teachings that were expressly presented in a manner that suggested they dealt specifically with Gods' Word. Again, if that is not what the original poster was referring to,please correct my misunderstanding.
Ummm..... actually they DID teach about investment skills and money management as well as time management. :unsure: Not only did they teach these things, people were checked up on, micro-managed and even M&A for not following those teachings.
TWI didn't just teach and let folks make their own decisions like most churches do. Sure some churches teach against birth control, but they don't send leaders into your house to check for evidence of birth control. TWI took everything to the extremes - extreme control.
When TWI did decide to teach on something you either followed the company line to a "T" or you were out.
Whatever TWI decided to teach - WHATEVER TWI DECIDED TO TEACH - they claimed absolute authority to not only teach it, but also to enforce said teachings - mostly because they tied it in to scriptures. You're really not going to go the "it wasn't written down so it didn't happen" b.s. again, are you?
The Way Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry. Now some may disagree that they accomplished the purpose, But I don't see The Way Biblical Research, Home buying training, and Fellowship Ministry. Nor do I see The Way Biblical Research, Financial planning school, and Fellowship Ministry.
Yeah..........I disagree that twi accomplished the purpose of "research, teaching and/or fellowship." IMO, they missed the mark during wierwille's era.....and miss the mark today.
I DO see The Way Biblical Research Plaigarizing Ministry.
I DO see The Way Biblical Teaching Inner-Circle-Indoctrination Society.
I DO see The Way Biblical Non-Fellowship and Closed-Door Isolationism.
Just my 24-year, corps trained, insider perspective............that's all.
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WhiteDove
Really, God might have a different view on how adolesent the scriptures are!
Selective memory maybe? The Way was never intended to be a place to learn investment skills, or to teach job advancement that is not what it was for no more so that college is a place for deep spiritual learning. It adolesent to think that when one goes to the ice cream store that they will learn how to fix their car :blink: :blink:
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rascal
Selective teachings to push the agends...YES!!!
There was the basic format which taught scriotures, taught respect for the scriptures...once that was established...the *wierd* teachings were pulled into play.
All the women of the kingdom...
All parts of the body equal....
Mogs must be served in order for them to serve the body...
Children are disposable....
Obedience is mandatory no matter how insane your leader sounds....
Yeah the teachings were inocuous at first...but they paved the way for the insane ones.
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johniam
quote:Selective teachings were the name of the game.
Oh, the catholic church doesn't do that? Or everybody else? Even a clothing sales person will use "mind control" on you.
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rascal
.......and that has WHAT to do with twi selective teachings?
What does what ever beef you have with the catholic church have to do with twi being wrong....
I dunno, some how I expect a teacher of the scriptures to be doing it for a more noble reason that trying to part me from my money or a sales comission :blink:
The catholic church does it...salesmen do it so it isn`t so bad that twi does it?
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skyrider
I repeat......
This man HAD an agenda.
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WordWolf
Actually, they were a LOT less selective at the last teachings in the Catholic
Church that I sat through. Then again, Mark should really be the one to address
this subject-if it's worth discussing. Naturally, that should be its OWN thread,
since THIS thread is about selective teachings IN TWI.
BTW, I'm glad you're not pretending twi didn't do selective teaching-
you skipped trying that.
I accept your analogy!
A clothing salesperson's JOB is to sell clothing, which is their AGENDA.
Many are on COMMISSION, which means their UNSTATED AGENDA is to sell you
clothing whether or not you need it- to get money from YOUR POCKETS
to THEIR POCKETS.
I accept that this is akin to how twi operated.
Thanks for your assistance-I didn't have such an apt analogy handy
at the moment.
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waysider
Dove--------If I may kindly point out, Skyrider did not call the scriptures adolesent . The context of the post suggests that the appoach was adolesent. Yes, it would be foolish to think that by going to the ice cream store one might aquire skills in car repair. May I again point out that we are not discussing car repair. We are discussing a class that promised to show us how Gods' Word could be used to benefit our lives. It many respects, it failed that mission. Even a brief review of "The Green Card" would prove that out.That has already been done here. The recent discussions of "harmony in the home" are just one example. But again, the focal point of this discussion should be whether or not there was selectivity in teachings. And yes, I'm interpreting that to mean the PFAL class as well since it was always referred to as the "foundational" class or a primer for subsequent teachings. If I am wrong in thinking that is what the original poster had in mind, I welcome the correction.
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skyrider
Well..........I expected MORE from "the true ministry" (cough, cough).
Didn't wierwille teach something about NOT reading around the truth.............yet, wierwille, in all his years, never approached the subject of adultery. Yep, he dodged SEVERAL topics, didn't he.??
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rascal
Hellooo?? lol
Nope, but he DID have teachings about all of the women in the kingdom belonging to the king...that adultery was ok for David, it was killing the husband that was a problem..ayup
He DID teach that todays mogs were on par with old testament kings....
He DID teach that all parts of the body were equal...
He DID teach that mogs were to be obeyed....
He DID teach ll things are lawfull to them which are in Christ..
ie we can all screw like bunnies, drink our selves stupid, destroy a brother or sister in Christ and suffer no consequences.
We just weren`t spiritual enough to handle it, which was why we weren`t adept at picking up the more subtle aspects of these *freedoms in Christ*
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WordWolf
One thing I DO reject, however,
is the casual attempt to lessen the immoral misuse of office done in twi
by claiming that "mind control" and manipulation by leadership
is the same thing as a sales clerk in a store trying to sell you clothes.
No salesperson can invoke fear of disobeying God Almighty if you don't
buy the clothes, nor invoke a "standard" you're supposed to live up to,
nor scream at you for not buying, nor have you excommunicated from
a community ("mark and avoid") for not buying.
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rascal
AMEN!
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skyrider
Rascal,
Good points.
Yeah.......even pfal has the seeds of twisted statements wherein agendas followed.
:unsure:
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markomalley
Thanks, but why bother...there are some who simply don't let facts get in the way of their opinions...
And, frankly, the topic has been discussed already...ad nauseum.
See The Word of God thread. One brief quote from it:
…had the Catholic Church wished to eradicate the scriptures, they surely could have done so in the first 1500 years of their existence (particularly if the power and reach of the Church was as ubiqutous as some anti-Catholic writers claim it was).
If somebody was interested, they could read what I said in that thread. Honestly, I just don't care to go through it again…and again…and again.
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skyrider
Thanks, Mark......and your point is well taken.
The earlier comments on the Catholic Church were simply a diversion tactic...........much like the "bait and switch tactics" that many twi leadership developed thru the years.
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Belle
Ummm..... actually they DID teach about investment skills and money management as well as time management. :unsure: Not only did they teach these things, people were checked up on, micro-managed and even M&A for not following those teachings.
TWI didn't just teach and let folks make their own decisions like most churches do. Sure some churches teach against birth control, but they don't send leaders into your house to check for evidence of birth control. TWI took everything to the extremes - extreme control.
When TWI did decide to teach on something you either followed the company line to a "T" or you were out.
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markomalley
Intersting thing, up until 1930, all (at least the vast majority of) churches taught against (artificial) birth control.
Per the BBC, History of Christian Attitudes Toward Birth Control
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T-Bone
Oh I disagree - what if the clothing store sales manager also happened to be the TWI-man-of-god-for-your-area!
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rascal
Yeah, twi taught birth control, it was called *abortion* for those nasty little inconveniences that could pop up from time to time and interrupt or distract one from their spiritual duty.
How superior to the churches.
Another selective teaching....grow spiritually put your life on the line, enroll in the corpes...go wow...
What they DIDN`T tell you in these teachings of how necessary these programs were for your spiritual growth was that to do so would be the equivalent of a *vow* to God, the breaking of which would mean sure spiritual destruction.
One found out only after making the commitment what the further ramifications of THAT doctrine was.
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potato
yep, my finances were combed through for months because I was in debt and couldn't take an AC special until I was out.
investment strategies were taught, and taught aggressively.
1. invest in the ministry (give us all your money)
2. start your own business
3. don't bother to invest or save for retirement, you won't need to if you do 1. and 2. above.
I'm looking at $800 month at retirement from my SS benefits.
thanks twi.
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WhiteDove
This does not sound like" We are discussing a class that promised to show us how Gods' Word could be used to benefit our lives" It sounds like what my example said you would not go to an ice cream store to learn about car repair, of course you might get lucky and find a car repairman there eating ice cream but generally if you want to learn auto repair skills you go to a school for that. Much is the same for investment skills.
I've generally found that the clue is in the title as to what it is for. The Way Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry. Now some may disagree that they accomplished the purpose, But I don't see The Way Biblical Research, Home buying training, and Fellowship Ministry. Nor do I see The Way Biblical Research, Financial planning school, and Fellowship Ministry. This is just another attempt to blame someone else for something unrelated to the field they were offering teaching in. If you wanted to learn that and did not go to the appropriate place now who's fault is that?
That said on occasion sometimes people with knowledge in certain fields kindly shared it at times with others. I learned a few things about auto repair from the fleet crew at Emporia. I learned some floral tips that I did not know when I worked on the stage flowers with another florist for the Heartbeat Weekend in our Region. But I never assumed that they had some responsibility to teach me those things. There are other places to learn these things.
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skyrider
Yeah......these twi-programs were considered equivalent to "walking with God." And further......the corps program morphed into an indoctrination for mog-service and slave labor.
Funny.........how some of the vpw-apologists that come on these forums NEVER signed up for these programs, nor understand how crazy the absolute-power-mentality became in a controlled setting.
It's so EASY.........to stand at a distance and point fingers.
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waysider
Dove--------Do you not realize that by only quoting part of what I said you have changed its' meaning?
This thread most certainly should include PFAL when citing examples because that is where the precedent was set for the practice of selectively teaching. And yes, PFAL did promise to help us find "a more abundant life' and certainly you must remember the teachings that ensued on the various meanings of the word "life". One , as you may recall, was "life in every respect". The ice cream store/car repair references serve no purpose other than to detract from the heart of this discussion which is "were or were not there examples of 'selective teaching' used in TWI? And no, I not talking about where someone may have presented secular teachings on subjects they thought might benefit the body. I am referring to teachings that were expressly presented in a manner that suggested they dealt specifically with Gods' Word. Again, if that is not what the original poster was referring to,please correct my misunderstanding.
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Belle
Regardless of what they called it, I repeat:
Whatever TWI decided to teach - WHATEVER TWI DECIDED TO TEACH - they claimed absolute authority to not only teach it, but also to enforce said teachings - mostly because they tied it in to scriptures. You're really not going to go the "it wasn't written down so it didn't happen" b.s. again, are you?
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skyrider
Yeah..........I disagree that twi accomplished the purpose of "research, teaching and/or fellowship." IMO, they missed the mark during wierwille's era.....and miss the mark today.
I DO see The Way Biblical Research Plaigarizing Ministry.
I DO see The Way Biblical Teaching Inner-Circle-Indoctrination Society.
I DO see The Way Biblical Non-Fellowship and Closed-Door Isolationism.
Just my 24-year, corps trained, insider perspective............that's all.
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