I think John S. is learning from past mistakes and making a sincere effort to change things for the better.
He's been trying to change things for the better for 30 years or better, and it repeatedly doesnt work.
Its time to quit hawking his books and head knowledge that goes nowhere, step down from being a (cough gag )..minister, (or whatever type of poobah title he has), honestly assess the gigantic holes and wake of destruction in his work and realize that if he really wants to 'serve God' or 'the body of Christ' it would be better to get out of the business and do something else, Do something beneficial for once-go rake leaves at your local church--anything---but its time for all of them to step off the pulpit and down off their golden throne of self importance.
Phewww..........for a minute I thought this was the AA thread. I swear I had gone to the CES thread.
cman - lighten up on the alcohol a little dude......this thread is not the place for it........a lecture on the evils of it.......I have seen this with people who see the light with AA.........don't read the evils of alcohol into everything.........the only thing worse than a born again non-smoker is a born again non-drinker.........I respect your journey for you..........
Back to our scheduled thread.........shoot I forgot what I was going to say.........
My research indicates that the PAC stood for Prophetic Advisory Committee. It was created in response to September 11 twin towers attack. Some members of the CES faith community came forward afterwards and said that they had received warnings from the Lord but didn't know what to do with them.
The PAC started with the intention of giving the prophetic members of the community at large a forum ( I hope some of you still believe there are prophets in the Body of Christ and not thrown out Eph:4 too) Unfortuantely, some got a hold of it and then ran with it. They used it as a way to manipulate and control. Pretty typical, good intentions but much wrong in the execution.
The Board is certainly responsible and I've heard first hand that the Board majority (Dan, John S. Gary and Karen T.) are very repentent for what happenend and have all intentions of making it right. I believe they'll make it public once they straightened out the rest of the problems. Right now I think they are just trying to get the ministry out of the hands of the Graesers. Mark is a rogue president and not accepting any oversight from them.
Matthew:
Thanks for your post. Good heart. I know you love these people and are grieved.
Jeff:
Sounds like Dan laid it out for Mark. No wonder he got handed his hat.
Cap'n Crunch:
Thanks for the catch on the "sexual involment" statement in Dan's letter to Mark. Mark indicated that he wasn't rebuffed, as you say E alledges, but he does admit that they only kissed. That's not what is important. Has anyone else picked up on the fact that Mark concealed this from the rest of the community when EL reminded him of it. This is the guy who was counseling John and E. and he had never even disclosed this to his supposed "best friend" (John Lynn). Doesn't sound like a friend to me. Certainly doesn't sound presidential---but then none of this does I guess.
He's been trying to change things for the better for 30 years or better, and it repeatedly doesnt work.
Its time to quit hawking his books and head knowledge that goes nowhere, step down from being a (cough gag )..minister, (or whatever type of poobah title he has), honestly assess the gigantic holes and wake of destruction in his work and realize that if he really wants to 'serve God' or 'the body of Christ' it would be better to get out of the business and do something else, Do something beneficial for once-go rake leaves at your local church--anything---but its time for all of them to step off the pulpit and down off their golden throne of self importance.
Well said , Mstar.
Sometimes the best way to serve God is to get the he11out of His way!
Why is it that these men can't simply see that they need a time out?
Well, my opinion of this thread topic has changed draMATically, based on detailed readings of parts I'd missed. Namely the "ki ss" referred to.
Anybody seen a photo of M.G. lately?
I have no idea what E. looks like, but I have been led to understand E. is a.t.t.r.a.c.t.i.v.e., and that if M.G. was on "this" end of the spectrum, E. is somewhere to the far right of that. I'm trying to be nice here.
So......methinks the levels of bewitching that have been used against these poor people is worse than initially suspected.
Or maybe it was a 'mercy' kis s, or a 'gee, it's 2 a.m. and in this low light, he's...' kinda kiss.
Not sure if that is where it all started Trustandobey, but those that have eyes to see and aren’t deceived by rock star status leaders acting humble can see where all their teachings and study has brought them. Simply put; full circle. Interesting be not entangled again is quoted, that to not be entangled in a yoke of bondage again. Yet the heavy yoke we shared in TWI appears heavier in CES/STFI.
That brings to mind being not unequally yoked, sure it talks about that being with unbelievers. Yet the analogy is about 2 animals pulling together and because one is working harder than the other they end up traveling in a circle when a straight line is thee desired result. Anyone question how long Jesus would allow this mismatch to keep working against its self?
But it is easy to see while all the time preaching Christ the Head, we will not over-lord you they set themselves up as even bigger rock stars than before. Oh and how I love the testimonies of what great hearts this true leaders have, while the bible says no man knows the heart of another. What great heart allows his wife to run ravenous on the flock and consume whom she wants claiming a super special connection to the Almighty?
Then to what man rules his house so well he allows a beast in sheep’s clothing to devour his bride? Really fit to lead God’s elect, you may be next to get feed to the beast while he stands by and allows it.
You see, we really don’t have all the story, or perhaps better yet we need to put on the blinders as these faithful few have. The path they have all gone down has lead them full circle back to the worship of men.
Mark- I read your post and I LOVED IT! This was/is great! So clear and powerfully written! I love it for many reasons. Years ago when a younger teen I was asking God how to find him. My girlfriend Chris and I met this guy and went back to her house and we were all talking about our need to find God...
Well, the room got lighter and this GUY began to make little crosses down his chest. He then told us in a prophetic kind of weird posture -- that Chris and I were arc angels and were reincarnated. There was nothing that we could do wrong. Everything we did would be blessed by God and would be right. Later, the weird prophesy stuff told Joe G and Rich that they were reincarnated Peter and Paul. During the prophecy it was also stated that Jesus Christ had failed and that the daughter of God would be coming. And the four points of the cross (that people do when they cross themselves) stood for the father, the son, the Holy Ghost and the daughter of God. We were told we were pretty much called by god and infallible.
Well, this is what led Joe and I to investigate the actual Bible. We found that we had heard a devil prophesy via this guy (Mike) and God delivered us from the deceiving web of BS that had been laid for us.
Interesting that this guy you speak of Hamon was told he would be like gods (I cannot find that in your post now) which is like he was "above" the rest. Just like I was told in a devil prophecy that I could do no wrong. The devil prophecy either puffs up or it tears down it is never "right."
Reminds me of the verse Gen. 3:5 ….and ye shall be as gods…. What a lure to eat of the fruit in the garden.
I am sure my devil prophesy, I heard all those years ago, was roaring with error as we did not know much. The one you quoted has been tailored to someone who knows a little Bible, but like many men/women want to be exalted.
Or the same lure held forth to the builders of Babel, or how about here in Isaiah
Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Anyway – GREAT post Mark
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
i must admit i don't understand why anyone thinks JAL or any of those folks should address this forum. because they feel some responsibility to "the body of christ?" some residual ex-twi camaraderie? i doubt it.
aren't these the same people who shut down THEIR OWN forum when it got too messy for them?
and even if they did "respond," does anyone really think it'd be satisfying? open, honest, full disclosure? or just more religious shuckin' and jivin'? the best you could ever hope to get from them is a veneer of semi-polite bs, barely covering the disdain they have for those of us who don't buy into their rap. i'm sorry, but that's what it is. they'll swear up and down that it's not so, but their self-satisfied smirks reveal their true hearts.
i know and love some of these people, so it pains me to say this. but i know it's the case, nevertheless. it's twi all over again, only worse. because they know better, but they do it anyway.
Oh my God!!! This was another great post. I cannot see how anyone would have hope that JAL will fix all of this... He led them to Momentus and personal prophesy and allowed some dream weavers "interpetations" to be snorted out about his wife. I also love some people involved in CES and will be praying for all of them. But geez - you want someone to straighten things out? It will not be a "name" for those people seem to have veered left and think they are still traveling down the middle.
I would look for a Mark Sanguinetti or a Raf to pop up with biblical reasoning and sound direction. (Not that they are not famous to us, however most of us know them as grounded not X-TWI stars.)
Thank you Dot. Coming from you especially that is a great compliment. Especially since I know you are a lady of great courage and integrity. Anyway I have to go now because I have a Real Estate test to take in a couple of hours.
And thanks for reposting my letter also Tom. Yes, I think everyone involved or formerly involved with TWI or CES should read my letter dated November 2000. Actually though, I may have not thought to post it here until Pawtucket jogged my memory on what I knew. Thanks also Paw.
Those who choose to sleep through being attacked can if they wish.
But it still takes it's toll.
I think this is a good summation. Some may think differently and I guess they can, but this is the way I see it. I have to agree with the Cman on this. IMO
I am glad you contacted us. You cannot believe everything you read. However, the PAC has been disbanded, and we are studying personal prophecy more closely...but that does not make it so. I have written a book on prophecy, I would suggest you read it,
Trying to follow the logic here.
1. You cannot believe the document in question as reflecting the leadership practices of CES. (Trust me on this one.)
2. But just in case you still have concerns, the PAC has been disbanded. Don't worry about the possibility of the same people may be functioning in some other leadership capacity.
3. We are studying personal prophecy more closely. Read my book. I am the authority on personal prophecy.
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mstar1
He's been trying to change things for the better for 30 years or better, and it repeatedly doesnt work.
Its time to quit hawking his books and head knowledge that goes nowhere, step down from being a (cough gag )..minister, (or whatever type of poobah title he has), honestly assess the gigantic holes and wake of destruction in his work and realize that if he really wants to 'serve God' or 'the body of Christ' it would be better to get out of the business and do something else, Do something beneficial for once-go rake leaves at your local church--anything---but its time for all of them to step off the pulpit and down off their golden throne of self importance.
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oldiesman
We're back on topic now.
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mstar1
Thanks
Edit: Changin your posts oldies?
too much drambuie?
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cman
I don't think so therebutforgrace.
Ces has never left twi either.
Nor has twi left ces.
And can be seen in such posts as clear as day.
Those who choose to sleep through being attacked can if they wish.
But it still takes it's toll.
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RumRunner
I've miles of files of your forefathers fruit...and NOW to suit my great computer...you're magnetic ink.
I'more that that at least I think I must be.
There you go man..keep as cool as you can...face piles of trials with smiles.
It riles them to believe that you percieve the web they weave.....and keep on thinking free
Yes Groucho - a perfect metaphor....
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outofdafog
Phewww..........for a minute I thought this was the AA thread. I swear I had gone to the CES thread.
cman - lighten up on the alcohol a little dude......this thread is not the place for it........a lecture on the evils of it.......I have seen this with people who see the light with AA.........don't read the evils of alcohol into everything.........the only thing worse than a born again non-smoker is a born again non-drinker.........I respect your journey for you..........
Back to our scheduled thread.........shoot I forgot what I was going to say.........
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joeoday
My research indicates that the PAC stood for Prophetic Advisory Committee. It was created in response to September 11 twin towers attack. Some members of the CES faith community came forward afterwards and said that they had received warnings from the Lord but didn't know what to do with them.
The PAC started with the intention of giving the prophetic members of the community at large a forum ( I hope some of you still believe there are prophets in the Body of Christ and not thrown out Eph:4 too) Unfortuantely, some got a hold of it and then ran with it. They used it as a way to manipulate and control. Pretty typical, good intentions but much wrong in the execution.
The Board is certainly responsible and I've heard first hand that the Board majority (Dan, John S. Gary and Karen T.) are very repentent for what happenend and have all intentions of making it right. I believe they'll make it public once they straightened out the rest of the problems. Right now I think they are just trying to get the ministry out of the hands of the Graesers. Mark is a rogue president and not accepting any oversight from them.
Matthew:
Thanks for your post. Good heart. I know you love these people and are grieved.
Jeff:
Sounds like Dan laid it out for Mark. No wonder he got handed his hat.
Cap'n Crunch:
Thanks for the catch on the "sexual involment" statement in Dan's letter to Mark. Mark indicated that he wasn't rebuffed, as you say E alledges, but he does admit that they only kissed. That's not what is important. Has anyone else picked up on the fact that Mark concealed this from the rest of the community when EL reminded him of it. This is the guy who was counseling John and E. and he had never even disclosed this to his supposed "best friend" (John Lynn). Doesn't sound like a friend to me. Certainly doesn't sound presidential---but then none of this does I guess.
Joe
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doojable
Well said , Mstar.
Sometimes the best way to serve God is to get the he11out of His way!
Why is it that these men can't simply see that they need a time out?
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cman
I didn't bring up alcohol.
So don't read what I'm saying into AA.
I didn't hear it there anyway.
I heard it today.
Thank You Very Much.
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TheEvan
F'real??!!
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socks
F'real Evan. They got "warnings".
Well, my opinion of this thread topic has changed draMATically, based on detailed readings of parts I'd missed. Namely the "ki ss" referred to.
Anybody seen a photo of M.G. lately?
I have no idea what E. looks like, but I have been led to understand E. is a.t.t.r.a.c.t.i.v.e., and that if M.G. was on "this" end of the spectrum, E. is somewhere to the far right of that. I'm trying to be nice here.
So......methinks the levels of bewitching that have been used against these poor people is worse than initially suspected.
Or maybe it was a 'mercy' kis s, or a 'gee, it's 2 a.m. and in this low light, he's...' kinda kiss.
Dunno. The horror....the horror......
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Ductape
Not sure if that is where it all started Trustandobey, but those that have eyes to see and aren’t deceived by rock star status leaders acting humble can see where all their teachings and study has brought them. Simply put; full circle. Interesting be not entangled again is quoted, that to not be entangled in a yoke of bondage again. Yet the heavy yoke we shared in TWI appears heavier in CES/STFI.
That brings to mind being not unequally yoked, sure it talks about that being with unbelievers. Yet the analogy is about 2 animals pulling together and because one is working harder than the other they end up traveling in a circle when a straight line is thee desired result. Anyone question how long Jesus would allow this mismatch to keep working against its self?
But it is easy to see while all the time preaching Christ the Head, we will not over-lord you they set themselves up as even bigger rock stars than before. Oh and how I love the testimonies of what great hearts this true leaders have, while the bible says no man knows the heart of another. What great heart allows his wife to run ravenous on the flock and consume whom she wants claiming a super special connection to the Almighty?
Then to what man rules his house so well he allows a beast in sheep’s clothing to devour his bride? Really fit to lead God’s elect, you may be next to get feed to the beast while he stands by and allows it.
You see, we really don’t have all the story, or perhaps better yet we need to put on the blinders as these faithful few have. The path they have all gone down has lead them full circle back to the worship of men.
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cman
Well outofdafog,
I'm not apologizing to you or anyone. I know I come on strong. Sometimes that's what it takes if that is where I'm led.
Seeing things and saying them will bring the heat on.
I can take it.
So regardless of what someone else may think I'm saying I'll say it anyway.
Some get it, some don't.
Don't know if any one does.
But I had to say what I said so I said it.
Still Love You, Still Care and Still a part of this here forum.
Ces is still in the same rut as twi or a drunk.
Take your pick.
Consumed by self-importance and selfish greed.
Talking about these so called leaders of ces.
It's the blind leading good people into the ditch.
And those who blindly support them.
Peace to you outofdafog.
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outofdafog
cman - I truly respect your journey.......peace to you too
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Dot Matrix
Mark- I read your post and I LOVED IT! This was/is great! So clear and powerfully written! I love it for many reasons. Years ago when a younger teen I was asking God how to find him. My girlfriend Chris and I met this guy and went back to her house and we were all talking about our need to find God...
Well, the room got lighter and this GUY began to make little crosses down his chest. He then told us in a prophetic kind of weird posture -- that Chris and I were arc angels and were reincarnated. There was nothing that we could do wrong. Everything we did would be blessed by God and would be right. Later, the weird prophesy stuff told Joe G and Rich that they were reincarnated Peter and Paul. During the prophecy it was also stated that Jesus Christ had failed and that the daughter of God would be coming. And the four points of the cross (that people do when they cross themselves) stood for the father, the son, the Holy Ghost and the daughter of God. We were told we were pretty much called by god and infallible.
Well, this is what led Joe and I to investigate the actual Bible. We found that we had heard a devil prophesy via this guy (Mike) and God delivered us from the deceiving web of BS that had been laid for us.
Interesting that this guy you speak of Hamon was told he would be like gods (I cannot find that in your post now) which is like he was "above" the rest. Just like I was told in a devil prophecy that I could do no wrong. The devil prophecy either puffs up or it tears down it is never "right."
Reminds me of the verse Gen. 3:5 ….and ye shall be as gods…. What a lure to eat of the fruit in the garden.
I am sure my devil prophesy, I heard all those years ago, was roaring with error as we did not know much. The one you quoted has been tailored to someone who knows a little Bible, but like many men/women want to be exalted.
Or the same lure held forth to the builders of Babel, or how about here in Isaiah
Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Anyway – GREAT post Mark
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Dot Matrix
Oh my God!!! This was another great post. I cannot see how anyone would have hope that JAL will fix all of this... He led them to Momentus and personal prophesy and allowed some dream weavers "interpetations" to be snorted out about his wife. I also love some people involved in CES and will be praying for all of them. But geez - you want someone to straighten things out? It will not be a "name" for those people seem to have veered left and think they are still traveling down the middle.
I would look for a Mark Sanguinetti or a Raf to pop up with biblical reasoning and sound direction. (Not that they are not famous to us, however most of us know them as grounded not X-TWI stars.)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you Dot. Coming from you especially that is a great compliment. Especially since I know you are a lady of great courage and integrity. Anyway I have to go now because I have a Real Estate test to take in a couple of hours.
And thanks for reposting my letter also Tom. Yes, I think everyone involved or formerly involved with TWI or CES should read my letter dated November 2000. Actually though, I may have not thought to post it here until Pawtucket jogged my memory on what I knew. Thanks also Paw.
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Dot Matrix
I think this is a good summation. Some may think differently and I guess they can, but this is the way I see it. I have to agree with the Cman on this. IMO
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Dot Matrix
Lorna Dune and Sunesis
Back a couple of pages
I agree, I think it is crap and appauling, that doesn't make us judgemental but good fruit inspectors
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Dot Matrix
I just read Elizabeth's letters
That poor woman.
And some people have hope that JAL will fix things?
Seems to me he ran out on a very nice woman when she was under attack by the witch of Endor.
He backed the wrong woman from what I saw.
Poor Elizabeth....
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cman
Yes Dot,
Twi and ces...though twi is afraid to move much...
ces has moved into some things with a whole lot of guess work and
as twi's tradition is-self-serving.
Ces has taken Wierwielle's work further.
Further away from exploring the true heavens and earth.
Yet they parallel it in a crooked bent fashion that is detestable to Reality.
God's reality which is the here and now.
Everything in the bible and the books that could be written, as John says,
is accessible now, by progressing into seeing the unseen and hearing the unheard.
Hearing they shall not hear
Seeing they shall not see
The words are there, in part, but not the heart.
God is the heart, therefore the heart is what sees God.
God is the heavens and earth within, which is seen as reflection of the Spirit without.
(please note I didn't say direction of the spirit but reflection)
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GarthP2000
Dot,
Yeah! And what a bunch of fruitcakes we're inspecting.
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oenophile
Excerpt from John Schoenheit letter:
Trying to follow the logic here.
1. You cannot believe the document in question as reflecting the leadership practices of CES. (Trust me on this one.)
2. But just in case you still have concerns, the PAC has been disbanded. Don't worry about the possibility of the same people may be functioning in some other leadership capacity.
3. We are studying personal prophecy more closely. Read my book. I am the authority on personal prophecy.
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Tom Strange
Yeah Robin, that's kind of how I "interpreted" it as well...
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