reading that letter, two things jumped out at me very early on. i'm wondering if anyone else has similar questions about them.
1. regarding the division going on at STF, john wrote "I know that no matter how far one has walked with God...our spiritual equilibrium is only as good as our renewed mind faith today."
does anyone else have a problem with this? it makes me nuts. WHY IS "SPIRITUAL EQUILIBRIUM" SO FRAGILE? it seems to me that kind of thinking makes God out to be weak and ineffectual. i had the same problem back when i was in twi. if we were designed to think "God's Word," it should be the easiest thing possible to hold on to--not the most tenuous. especially after doing it a while. if i exercise 3 times a week, every week for ten years, i don't lose all the benefits if i skip a week. why is "our spiritual equilibrium" so much less robust? i think it's just a bunch if crap; just a fear tactic to keep folks coming to church.
2. talking about KAG's problems, he said, "I believe that is coming out of her deep woundedness..." wait a minute, hasn't this person been committed to God and Jesus and the Bible and all that for years and years and years? why is she still so friggin' wounded? i thought at least part of the point of all that christian stuff was to be healed. but this person is spiritually "together" enough to get personal messages from God for other people, but still is deeply wounded? just my opinion, of course, but if i dumped my whole life into a thing for 30+ years and was still "deeply wounded," i'd have to wonder if maybe i was into the wrong thing.
Several years ago Mark G started school again in some kind of psychology classes. JAL and the rest of the CES Gang has swallowed or allowed the stuff Mark said (in conferences and teachings) and wrote (in their magazines) and JAL's mouthing some of it in the the "woundedness" belief. Of course it's not even logical in this case because her 'rapid deterioration' occurred only in 'the last 7 months' so what wounded her just before that to send her into a nose dive from being spiritually accurate (forget that the 'prophecieis' exposed here were 3-4 years ago) to something so bad that he, who has been 'sewn at the hip' to them, must now admit there's a bit of a problem? But, as you said, and I agree...he believes it. In short...the 'woundedness' thing is one more thing he will get to see was nuts. I'm assuming the Lord wil take him slowly since there are so many....
I'll admit I didn't even bother to think about this mess any more after reading about the so called "prophecies". That's worse than twi. Can't believe folks can't figure out these guys are a couple of cans short of a six-pack. Ops sorry, I think I've been thrown off my spirtual equalibrium (I'd better get back to church before I'm out of fellowship).
If you equate "spiritual equilibrium" with "busy-ness" it makes sense to me, kind of in a warped way..
I think he's saying that anybody who is somebody is still on the "cutting edge"(whatever that is..),
is busy publishing books, running classes, and generally, jumping over an army of devils with a single bound.
So "busy" you don't have time to sit and rest for the next five minutes.. so harrassed with the supposed details of the walk that you blame it on being so spiritual.
Things look rather different after you sit a spell.. maybe thats what he's afraid of..
reading that letter, two things jumped out at me very early on. i'm wondering if anyone else has similar questions about them.
1. regarding the division going on at STF, john wrote "I know that no matter how far one has walked with God...our spiritual equilibrium is only as good as our renewed mind faith today."
does anyone else have a problem with this? it makes me nuts. WHY IS "SPIRITUAL EQUILIBRIUM" SO FRAGILE? it seems to me that kind of thinking makes God out to be weak and ineffectual. i had the same problem back when i was in twi. if we were designed to think "God's Word," it should be the easiest thing possible to hold on to--not the most tenuous. especially after doing it a while. if i exercise 3 times a week, every week for ten years, i don't lose all the benefits if i skip a week. why is "our spiritual equilibrium" so much less robust? i think it's just a bunch if crap; just a fear tactic to keep folks coming to church.
2. talking about KAG's problems, he said, "I believe that is coming out of her deep woundedness..." wait a minute, hasn't this person been committed to God and Jesus and the Bible and all that for years and years and years? why is she still so friggin' wounded? i thought at least part of the point of all that christian stuff was to be healed. but this person is spiritually "together" enough to get personal messages from God for other people, but still is deeply wounded? just my opinion, of course, but if i dumped my whole life into a thing for 30+ years and was still "deeply wounded," i'd have to wonder if maybe i was into the wrong thing.
Gee, I thought this was pretty straightforward, she has been "wounded" recently; it's causing problems; they asked Gaesers to temporaraly step down & take care of home (with pay) & they are refusing - vainly cuz they're outnumbered on the board who will make all this history.
Majority of the Board has been wising up to the doctrinal error RE prophesy due the "fruit" it is (not) producing. Ya know it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge (whithout both sides of the stories - thusly manipulated) of your brothers-in-christ while at least these guys are trying to believe in the one body, "the fullness of him who fills all in all..."i.e. the church! (you know you're complete in christ but the fullness remains in the church, we are members of something folks: we are commanded not only to believe on the name but also to LOVE ONE ANOTHER (remember? God is love). ministers are members also and are to be loved & appreciated for thier service to Christ. Just because you become a leader doesn't exclude you from the "weep with those that weep" command. I percieve that most people on this web site have yet to separate what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan in the past.
God Bless
I do since that JAL still has some things to process, it took me years to sort out what was of God, of man, and of satan back in twi days.
One of the most hoppin' topics that threads throughout many of the GS discussions is this very thing -
I perceive that most people on this web site have yet to separate what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan in the past.
This is, in fact, what many of the posters here would probably say they've done, or are doing and GS offers a forum for some of that development to take place. And just as important, what's going on now. Your additions to the discussion will be welcome I'm sure. How have you separated those things? What's fallen where, so to speak.
This thread may not be the right place for it, but if you choose to, feel free to pop one up!
Something to consider too is that GS is a single place for discussion and doesn't constitute the whole of how most people think or live. Topics are posted and discussed. IMO (in my opinion) the discussion itself can include a value judgment based on what's been posted becasue that's the medium of the board. The more people that post more information, the higher the quality of the discussion.
In other words, the more information, the more "sides" of a story that are represented, the more informed the responses can be. But assumed in nearly any discussion like this one is the understood statement "if what's been posted is true, based on that information then..." ... you get the response.
For instance E's letter. Of course that's only one side of the story. And the entire personal side of John L's and E's marriage is unknown to most here, as it should be and will probably remain. So addressing the letter itself precludes that information, or any other sides to the many things that are described in it. Basically we're reading personal correspondence between two people, in a public forum.
If I get past that and accept that there's a value to it being here, the next question is, to who and what goes that value? I gather here there's some concern for family and friends that may be involved with CES. For me it's sad to see the struggle that goes on, needlessly. For others, other things I'm sure. And I'm sure that those with a heart for it have prayed for all involved.
Ya know it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge (whithout both sides of the stories - thusly manipulated) of your brothers-in-christ while at least these guys are trying to believe in the one body, "the fullness of him who fills all in all..."i.e. the church!
The last paragraph of JAL's letter seemed very judgemental towards the brothers-in-Christ here at Greasespot. I don't get why you think they're believing in the one body. It looks to me like CES ministers, JAL at least, are trying to cause more division.
hey, biblebrain, you sure jumped in with both feet!
i guess i don't see the "bitterness" you speak of. but am i complaining and judging? you bet! i'm complaining because i think there's plenty to complain about in this STF business--many of the same complaints i had about twi, and anyone else who espouses what i JUDGE (there i go, judging) to be nonsense.
when i left twi, i told myself my new philosophy was "if what you believe makes you happy, it's cool with me." twenty years later, it's really not my philosophy any more. not when it's so obvious to me that so much of what people believe, especially in this category, damages other people.
as for your perception of "most people" on this site, isn't that judging? (and snap judging, to boot) or do you hold yourself to some other standard?
I don’t know if you’ve read the other 2 threads, but I was a CESer and I love these people. I’ve stated my purpose plainly elsewhere, but will do so here: to see redemption for EVERY person Christ died for, whether I agree with their theology or not.
A quick note about the Café--from one newbie to another: Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! It’s something that many of us ex-TWI-Brains have to get used to....but it’s liberating, so please stick around.
First, you wrote, it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge...
Remember the distinction:
.....We all know God has commanded us NOT TO JUDGE hearts or motives.
.....But we must remember that the same God, at the same time, has commanded us TO JUDGE words and actions.
(Have our senses exercised to discern between good and evil; abhor that which is evil; prove all things, hold fast to that which is good)
So.....ummmm....(said quietly since you’re new).....of your three words describing us... “bitter, complaining, judg-ing“....the last 2 do describe words/actions...but...ummmmm....the first describes the heart.
Hey.....2 out of 3 ain’t bad for your 1st post, though. The rest of us don’t engage our Biblebrains 24/7 either. So ... you might see more unbiblical judging of hearts here at GS since .... Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! But don’t dismiss the many biblical judging of words, teachings and actions found here which can truly help many, many believers not only in CES but elsewhere.
Second, you wrote, I thought this was pretty straightforward...[KA] has been "wounded" recently; it’s causing problems.
He who only looks at what CES wants him to see will always think it’s pretty straightforward. (Many of us used to.) But he who looks at things CES doesn't want him to see (as many of us have done and as GS has now allowed you and anyone else to do) finds out things are anything but straightforward! He also finds out there is nothing recent about this.
Before and since personal prophecy became a club, many of us have spoken up to help our brothers and sisters in CES. The fruit was quite plain to see.....some of us were nicely dismissed, some indifferently ignored but far too many were attacked and discredited to our families, our friends and from city to city. (See details in CES Is In A Mess or PM any of us who have given examples or start a new thread asking for examples.)
Just the ‘prophecies’ given to JALandE themselves are anything but ‘recent’, but are dated April 2003. If I may be so bold as to speak for the GS consensus, I see it this way: in this one particular case, we have separated what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan. Those prophecies, CES people's words and actions written in E’s letter,(and other CES words and actions reported here at GS) were almost none of God, some of man and many of Satan.
Third, you wrote, the [new] board will make all this history
The solution to the administrative direction of CES might be to vote Mark out as President, terminate his employment and, as Joeoday said, “eliminate the influence of KA”.
The solution to “all this”, however, is not in changing their personnel. It is in changing their decades-old way of thinking and living--indivdually and corporately--that would lead these men/women (who say they love God and Jesus, who teach God's Word, and who have accepted the position of Christian leadership) to judge that these ‘of man and of Satan’ words and actions were words and actions “of God’. In short, what needs to change are the strongholds and every high thing that led them to call evil good and good evil.
Fourth, you wrote, and excathedra quoted, Majority of the Board has been wising up to the doctrinal error RE prophesy due the "fruit" it is (not) producing...and Joeoday wrote, Unfortunately, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
To which I reply...THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS! There has been rotten “fruit” for decades. There is a long line of "casualties". The “pattern” emerged long ago. God has over and over and over again sent wise people to "wise them up". (And, praise His Name, He is doing it once again with the folks right here at GSC.)
Fifth, you wrote, ministers are members also and are to be loved & appreciated for their service to Christ.
You are correct.
And so is God when He tells us “though we [your ministers] or an angel from God preach any other doctrine to you ...let him be accursed.”
I love these folks and I appreciate their service to Christ. And, while not counting them as enemies, I show them my love by
SHOUTING FOUL FROM THE ROOFTOPS because of their pattern of other doctrines. Back when I began to separate what was of God, of man and of Satan in CES, I quickly chose to have no fellowship with their unfruitful works of darkness, so I am praising God that such works have been exposed.
And I continue to this day to admonish them as brothers and sisters to
...humble themselves before God,
...submit to Him,
...return to their first love,
...count all (their organization, their books and tapes, their position, their income, their following, even their part in a godly cause)
as dung in light of the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ,
...spend time getting to know Him (developing more and more of an intimate relationship with Him as Savior, Lord, brother, lover and friend),
...submit to their fellow believers,
...eschew the leaven they have swallowed,
...repent to God and the believers,
...and then.....begin anew to live the love of God
==== not out from their knowledge of God's Word with which they have dutifully filled their heads,
but out from the love of God which Holy Spirit has mercifully shed abroad in their hearts.
Seems a lot of accusing and argument about JUDGEMENT and JUDGING.
Try this on for size!
'So who are we to judge?"
This was a question asked by a participant in a bible study.
After the question the teacher said "Those who sleep togetther before marriage are displeasing to Gos.
Then the participant said:
"Who of us is perfect? We have no right to sit in judgement of someelses morality."
So who are we to judge? We hear it everyday and alot on the GS.
Who are you to say the Jehovah's witnesses are wrong?
Who are we to say that when people collapse because they are " slain in the spirit" by an anointed preacher --- who are you to say they are not being slain by the Holy Spirit?
Who are you to say that if someone is healed in a meeting, this might not br done by the power of God?
Who are we to say that God can't approve of a loving homosexual relationship?
And who are we to say that when a statue of the Virgin mary weeps we should not think that it is trying to get a message to us?
Bring up the subject of judging and get two differant responses.
First those that are not willing to make any significant judgements.
They are determined to "live and let live", with in reason, of course. Short of criminal activity.
The belief is that everyone should be able to choose their own values and lifestyles and neitherthe church nor individual Christians have a right to judge them.
Then there is the other side. Those that are willing to judge> They love to sharpen thier arrows. Identify their target, and let those around them know what God really thinks.
These are often critical people who not only judge others with the wrong attitude but for the wrong reasons. Often they judge others, not because of some actual breach of biblical conduct or doctrine but because of petty taboos or minor infractions. Often these critics are angry and resentful of those who do not measure up to their privately held convictions.
Like the Pharisees, some see only the letter of the law and neglect the more important matters of justice, mercy and love.
I believe Jesus was speaking to both groups when he said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. Matt: (1-2)
But what did he mean by these words? Did he mean that we do ourselves a favor if we make no judgements, since such judgements will return upon our own heads.
I THINK NOT!
This question " is it right to judge?" is one that puzzles many sincere Christians. A careful and open minded study of the bible makes it clear that concerning vital matters, it is not only right but a positive duty to judge. Many do not know that His scriptures command us to judge.
John 7:24 The Lord Jesus Christ commanded " Judge righteous judgment"
Luke 7:43 He told a man "thou has rightly judged"
Luke 12:57 To others our Lord asked " why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right"
1 Corn 10:15 the aposttle Paul wrote " I speak as to wise men: judge ye what I say"
1 Corn 2:15 again Paul declared "he that is spiritual judgeth all things"
It is our positive duty to judge!
Matt 7: 1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgement ye judge, yr shall be judged: and with that measure ye mete ( to measure, of capacity, but also of length), it shall be measured to you again.
and why beholdestthou the mote that is in thy brother'eye, buy considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? orhow wilt thou say to thy brother, let mr pull out the mote out of thy eye: and, behold, a beamis in thine own eye.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast to cast out the mote out of thy brithers eye.
Read this agian carefully. To whom is it addressed?
Notice that this is written to a hypocrite! Not to those who sincerely want to discern weather a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's word.
And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgement, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgement. Then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Here's what I see, if a person were thoroughly honest, if they were motivated by a sincere desire to please the Lord, then he would be as particyular about himself as he is about others. he woulds go through great pains to remove the plank from his own eye first and then begin to look for otherd he might help.
You can never understand the heart of a Pharisee, unless you realize that he sees the plank in his eye as belonging to others.
First our motive should be to keep ourselves from error.
All judging begins with keen recognition that we are accountable to God for all of our talents and treasures and particularly, our life syyles and values.
Second, our motive should be to guide others, to make sure they are led in the path of salvation.
WHEN WE MAKE JUDGEMENTS WE MUST ASK:
WHAT BIBLICAL TRUTH IS BEING DENIED?
WHAT TRUTH IS BEING SUBTITUTED?
WHAT TRUTH IS BEING IGNORED?
WHAT TRUTH IS OUT OF BALANCE?
We have the power to judge, but we do not have the power to condem: we have the right to worn but not to condem.
sorry but I hit a buttom from hell on my computer that put up the post before it was completed. Was that a judgement against my computer?
Yes, you can be a Christian for years and still have woundedness. It's illustrated in the Pharisees. They believed, knew the word of God in their minds, but not in their hearts. Woundedness leads to hard hearts and lack of compassion.
People have to be open to physical or emotional healing before it can occur. You see this borne out in the gospels. Jesus even asked a couple people, "Do you want to be healed?" Seems like a dumb question, but obviously some don't think they need it or truly want it. Their woundedness is a crutch. Still, even if something is a crutch, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and drive motives and actions, usually subconsciously without the person ever realizing it.
I would recommend reading "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" or "Waking the Dead" or "Hurt People Hurt People." Simply memorizing scriptures doesn't heal the psyche. That is a supernatural occurance. Also, you can be born from above and still not "get it." Case in point: Peter -- God was gracious enough to show him the vision about the sheet with the unclean animals to illustrate the point about eating with the Gentiles.
As far as the players at the helm at CES, yes, mistakes were made. Egos blinded good judgment. Obviously some things were handled poorly, and some folks twisted some things in the Word to suit themselves. Objectivity and humility is still lacking in several areas. And forums like these give people a place to vent and process, express disappointment, say "I told ya so" and try to get facts, although I think more gossip is being relayed here than facts.
You and I will be held accountable for "every idle word" on that Great Day. Think about it. Meanwhile, I lift up a prayer for all those who love Christ and want to live for him, but who have strayed or become blinded or hard-hearted, and for those who have been hurt to be comforted, to see these people as Christ sees them, and eventually to forgive as God has forgiven them and just let it go.
"Waking the Dead" is a book by John Eldredge about how the renewed heart - in conjunction with a renewed mind -- is critical for living with compassion. "Create in me a pure and contrite heart" as King David said. That kind of stuff.
It's about waking the zombie dead, well-meaning Christians who are bored or disillusioned with church. His website is called Ransomed Heart.
But that did make me laugh about it not being VP. :-)
I don't remember what the original 2 questions were....
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therebutforgrace
Several years ago Mark G started school again in some kind of psychology classes. JAL and the rest of the CES Gang has swallowed or allowed the stuff Mark said (in conferences and teachings) and wrote (in their magazines) and JAL's mouthing some of it in the the "woundedness" belief. Of course it's not even logical in this case because her 'rapid deterioration' occurred only in 'the last 7 months' so what wounded her just before that to send her into a nose dive from being spiritually accurate (forget that the 'prophecieis' exposed here were 3-4 years ago) to something so bad that he, who has been 'sewn at the hip' to them, must now admit there's a bit of a problem? But, as you said, and I agree...he believes it. In short...the 'woundedness' thing is one more thing he will get to see was nuts. I'm assuming the Lord wil take him slowly since there are so many....
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polar bear
I agree Sprawled out-
I'll admit I didn't even bother to think about this mess any more after reading about the so called "prophecies". That's worse than twi. Can't believe folks can't figure out these guys are a couple of cans short of a six-pack. Ops sorry, I think I've been thrown off my spirtual equalibrium (I'd better get back to church before I'm out of fellowship).
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Ham
If you equate "spiritual equilibrium" with "busy-ness" it makes sense to me, kind of in a warped way..
I think he's saying that anybody who is somebody is still on the "cutting edge"(whatever that is..),
is busy publishing books, running classes, and generally, jumping over an army of devils with a single bound.
So "busy" you don't have time to sit and rest for the next five minutes.. so harrassed with the supposed details of the walk that you blame it on being so spiritual.
Things look rather different after you sit a spell.. maybe thats what he's afraid of..
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excathedra
"I believe that is coming out of her deep woundedness..."
is she deeply wounded because of her guilt for wounding so many ? i kinda doubt it. come on, i thought JAL was more logical than that ????
maybe those spiders wounded her.... and took a bite out of him at the hip as well....
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Dot Matrix
""I believe that is coming out of her deep woundedness..."
So how come Karen is allowed
To have deep woundedness and yet people at GS are victims and whiners.....
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watersedge
Posted Today, 08:46 PM
""I believe that is coming out of her deep woundedness..."
So how come Karen is allowed
To have deep woundedness and yet people at GS are victims and whiners.....
these are your statements, Dot
here are mine:
honestly, fear drives the motive"s" and "it" has the steering wheel
in truth we all have been wounded
and that's a fact
claiming "wounding" is a coward's way out of conflict
when the cock crowed, it was the "nell"
3 times sealed the deal
God begins in heart and ends in heart
not in quotes of wounding
from where i sit god always looks
upon all with a smile
and he gave his son
that's all i need to keep breathing
wounded or not
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sprawled out
good point, dot.
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excathedra
perhaps she needs a momentus refresher course
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Biblebrain
Gee, I thought this was pretty straightforward, she has been "wounded" recently; it's causing problems; they asked Gaesers to temporaraly step down & take care of home (with pay) & they are refusing - vainly cuz they're outnumbered on the board who will make all this history.
Majority of the Board has been wising up to the doctrinal error RE prophesy due the "fruit" it is (not) producing. Ya know it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge (whithout both sides of the stories - thusly manipulated) of your brothers-in-christ while at least these guys are trying to believe in the one body, "the fullness of him who fills all in all..."i.e. the church! (you know you're complete in christ but the fullness remains in the church, we are members of something folks: we are commanded not only to believe on the name but also to LOVE ONE ANOTHER (remember? God is love). ministers are members also and are to be loved & appreciated for thier service to Christ. Just because you become a leader doesn't exclude you from the "weep with those that weep" command. I percieve that most people on this web site have yet to separate what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan in the past.
God Bless
I do since that JAL still has some things to process, it took me years to sort out what was of God, of man, and of satan back in twi days.
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socks
Hello Biblebrain, welcome!
One of the most hoppin' topics that threads throughout many of the GS discussions is this very thing -
This is, in fact, what many of the posters here would probably say they've done, or are doing and GS offers a forum for some of that development to take place. And just as important, what's going on now. Your additions to the discussion will be welcome I'm sure. How have you separated those things? What's fallen where, so to speak.
This thread may not be the right place for it, but if you choose to, feel free to pop one up!
Something to consider too is that GS is a single place for discussion and doesn't constitute the whole of how most people think or live. Topics are posted and discussed. IMO (in my opinion) the discussion itself can include a value judgment based on what's been posted becasue that's the medium of the board. The more people that post more information, the higher the quality of the discussion.
In other words, the more information, the more "sides" of a story that are represented, the more informed the responses can be. But assumed in nearly any discussion like this one is the understood statement "if what's been posted is true, based on that information then..." ... you get the response.
For instance E's letter. Of course that's only one side of the story. And the entire personal side of John L's and E's marriage is unknown to most here, as it should be and will probably remain. So addressing the letter itself precludes that information, or any other sides to the many things that are described in it. Basically we're reading personal correspondence between two people, in a public forum.
If I get past that and accept that there's a value to it being here, the next question is, to who and what goes that value? I gather here there's some concern for family and friends that may be involved with CES. For me it's sad to see the struggle that goes on, needlessly. For others, other things I'm sure. And I'm sure that those with a heart for it have prayed for all involved.
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excathedra
they're kinda slow, wouldn't you say biblebrain ?
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VeganXTC
Welcome Biblebrain!
You said:
The last paragraph of JAL's letter seemed very judgemental towards the brothers-in-Christ here at Greasespot. I don't get why you think they're believing in the one body. It looks to me like CES ministers, JAL at least, are trying to cause more division.
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sprawled out
hey, biblebrain, you sure jumped in with both feet!
i guess i don't see the "bitterness" you speak of. but am i complaining and judging? you bet! i'm complaining because i think there's plenty to complain about in this STF business--many of the same complaints i had about twi, and anyone else who espouses what i JUDGE (there i go, judging) to be nonsense.
when i left twi, i told myself my new philosophy was "if what you believe makes you happy, it's cool with me." twenty years later, it's really not my philosophy any more. not when it's so obvious to me that so much of what people believe, especially in this category, damages other people.
as for your perception of "most people" on this site, isn't that judging? (and snap judging, to boot) or do you hold yourself to some other standard?
can you say hypocrite?
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therebutforgrace
Hi Biblebrain, welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe!
I don’t know if you’ve read the other 2 threads, but I was a CESer and I love these people. I’ve stated my purpose plainly elsewhere, but will do so here: to see redemption for EVERY person Christ died for, whether I agree with their theology or not.
A quick note about the Café--from one newbie to another: Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! It’s something that many of us ex-TWI-Brains have to get used to....but it’s liberating, so please stick around.
First, you wrote, it's easy to sit there in front of your computer and be bitter, complaining, judge...
Remember the distinction:
.....We all know God has commanded us NOT TO JUDGE hearts or motives.
.....But we must remember that the same God, at the same time, has commanded us TO JUDGE words and actions.
(Have our senses exercised to discern between good and evil; abhor that which is evil; prove all things, hold fast to that which is good)
So.....ummmm....(said quietly since you’re new).....of your three words describing us... “bitter, complaining, judg-ing“....the last 2 do describe words/actions...but...ummmmm....the first describes the heart.
Hey.....2 out of 3 ain’t bad for your 1st post, though. The rest of us don’t engage our Biblebrains 24/7 either. So ... you might see more unbiblical judging of hearts here at GS since .... Everyone here is allowed to speak! No one here is shamed into silence! But don’t dismiss the many biblical judging of words, teachings and actions found here which can truly help many, many believers not only in CES but elsewhere.
Second, you wrote, I thought this was pretty straightforward...[KA] has been "wounded" recently; it’s causing problems.
He who only looks at what CES wants him to see will always think it’s pretty straightforward. (Many of us used to.) But he who looks at things CES doesn't want him to see (as many of us have done and as GS has now allowed you and anyone else to do) finds out things are anything but straightforward! He also finds out there is nothing recent about this.
Before and since personal prophecy became a club, many of us have spoken up to help our brothers and sisters in CES. The fruit was quite plain to see.....some of us were nicely dismissed, some indifferently ignored but far too many were attacked and discredited to our families, our friends and from city to city. (See details in CES Is In A Mess or PM any of us who have given examples or start a new thread asking for examples.)
Just the ‘prophecies’ given to JALandE themselves are anything but ‘recent’, but are dated April 2003. If I may be so bold as to speak for the GS consensus, I see it this way: in this one particular case, we have separated what was from God, what was of man, and what was of satan. Those prophecies, CES people's words and actions written in E’s letter,(and other CES words and actions reported here at GS) were almost none of God, some of man and many of Satan.
Third, you wrote, the [new] board will make all this history
The solution to the administrative direction of CES might be to vote Mark out as President, terminate his employment and, as Joeoday said, “eliminate the influence of KA”.
The solution to “all this”, however, is not in changing their personnel. It is in changing their decades-old way of thinking and living--indivdually and corporately--that would lead these men/women (who say they love God and Jesus, who teach God's Word, and who have accepted the position of Christian leadership) to judge that these ‘of man and of Satan’ words and actions were words and actions “of God’. In short, what needs to change are the strongholds and every high thing that led them to call evil good and good evil.
Fourth, you wrote, and excathedra quoted, Majority of the Board has been wising up to the doctrinal error RE prophesy due the "fruit" it is (not) producing...and Joeoday wrote, Unfortunately, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
To which I reply...THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD for YEARS and YEARS and YEARS! There has been rotten “fruit” for decades. There is a long line of "casualties". The “pattern” emerged long ago. God has over and over and over again sent wise people to "wise them up". (And, praise His Name, He is doing it once again with the folks right here at GSC.)
Fifth, you wrote, ministers are members also and are to be loved & appreciated for their service to Christ.
You are correct.
And so is God when He tells us “though we [your ministers] or an angel from God preach any other doctrine to you ...let him be accursed.”
I love these folks and I appreciate their service to Christ. And, while not counting them as enemies, I show them my love by
SHOUTING FOUL FROM THE ROOFTOPS because of their pattern of other doctrines. Back when I began to separate what was of God, of man and of Satan in CES, I quickly chose to have no fellowship with their unfruitful works of darkness, so I am praising God that such works have been exposed.
And I continue to this day to admonish them as brothers and sisters to
...humble themselves before God,
...submit to Him,
...return to their first love,
...count all (their organization, their books and tapes, their position, their income, their following, even their part in a godly cause)
as dung in light of the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ,
...spend time getting to know Him (developing more and more of an intimate relationship with Him as Savior, Lord, brother, lover and friend),
...submit to their fellow believers,
...eschew the leaven they have swallowed,
...repent to God and the believers,
...and then.....begin anew to live the love of God
==== not out from their knowledge of God's Word with which they have dutifully filled their heads,
but out from the love of God which Holy Spirit has mercifully shed abroad in their hearts.
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pawtucket
Therebutforgrace,
That is one of the best posts in this entire CES section (not to diminish the other fabulous posts)
I think we can just send this to the board and go home.
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skyrider
I wholeheartedly agree.
A good summation of lots that's being said here at The Cafe.
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rich
fixing a human error
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rich
opps
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rich
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Holy Smoke
Hello, wounded posters and God bless you.
Yes, you can be a Christian for years and still have woundedness. It's illustrated in the Pharisees. They believed, knew the word of God in their minds, but not in their hearts. Woundedness leads to hard hearts and lack of compassion.
People have to be open to physical or emotional healing before it can occur. You see this borne out in the gospels. Jesus even asked a couple people, "Do you want to be healed?" Seems like a dumb question, but obviously some don't think they need it or truly want it. Their woundedness is a crutch. Still, even if something is a crutch, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and drive motives and actions, usually subconsciously without the person ever realizing it.
I would recommend reading "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" or "Waking the Dead" or "Hurt People Hurt People." Simply memorizing scriptures doesn't heal the psyche. That is a supernatural occurance. Also, you can be born from above and still not "get it." Case in point: Peter -- God was gracious enough to show him the vision about the sheet with the unclean animals to illustrate the point about eating with the Gentiles.
As far as the players at the helm at CES, yes, mistakes were made. Egos blinded good judgment. Obviously some things were handled poorly, and some folks twisted some things in the Word to suit themselves. Objectivity and humility is still lacking in several areas. And forums like these give people a place to vent and process, express disappointment, say "I told ya so" and try to get facts, although I think more gossip is being relayed here than facts.
You and I will be held accountable for "every idle word" on that Great Day. Think about it. Meanwhile, I lift up a prayer for all those who love Christ and want to live for him, but who have strayed or become blinded or hard-hearted, and for those who have been hurt to be comforted, to see these people as Christ sees them, and eventually to forgive as God has forgiven them and just let it go.
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excathedra
welcome
"Waking the Dead"
i hope that book is not about veepee
;)
ps. what were the 2 questions ?
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FullCircle
I thought it was high cholesterol and plague that harden hearts?
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Holy Smoke
"Waking the Dead" is a book by John Eldredge about how the renewed heart - in conjunction with a renewed mind -- is critical for living with compassion. "Create in me a pure and contrite heart" as King David said. That kind of stuff.
It's about waking the zombie dead, well-meaning Christians who are bored or disillusioned with church. His website is called Ransomed Heart.
But that did make me laugh about it not being VP. :-)
I don't remember what the original 2 questions were....
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Raf
Excie,
This is not a new thread. The two questions are on page 1. :)
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