As much as I blindly followed them & hung on every word out of LCM's mouth, there is no way I'd ever do/have done anything illegal/dangerous/harmful for them or anyone else.
My ex & I wound up divorcing because I wanted to leave TWI & he did not. He actually gave up talking to any of his family because of TWI. He refused to have any friends that were not part of them.
Looking back I see how naive that I was to follow most of the instructions I was given when "in" with them. I'm just glad it never lead to something like Jonestown.
Honestly I would not have done anything illegal, but I would have to say at one point I was so tricked into thinking that I was committed that anything that got in my way had to go.
So yes I think I would have left my wife if she decided not to stand with tiw. I'm glad we finally figured things out and we both left together. I thank God that I still have a wife and family. I will never get involved with any religion again or have anything to do with something that interferes with my wife or family.
at one time I thought it was worth fighting for, regardless of cost. I was deluded. I don't think I could have killed someone unless I felt like my life would be in danger if I didn't.
lately, looking back on it, I think if LCM had pulled my ex into a little room and told him to smother me in my sleep because I was a liability, he would have done it.
Were you willing to not just kill to "protect" the ministry, but avoid taxes, steal something?
There something going on in the 70's where it was being taught by Tom Jenkinson that we shouldn't pay income taxes. He taught that the amendment to the constitution about income tax was unconstitutional. I remember a family get together (both wayfers and nonwayfers) and someone brought up how they weren't filing that year. The nonwayfers were appalled. I did a lot of stupid stuff in the name of TWI, but I always paid my taxes.
There's one family who spent time in jail for not paying taxes because of advice from TWI leadership.
There's lots of women who had abortions because of suggestions (and some commands) from TWI leadership.
My ex also cut all contact with his family because of a suggestion from TWI leadership (Moynihan). He wanted me to cut ties with my family, but knew better than to push that issue.
My ex divorced me because I left TWI.
Lots of people gave up college and promising careers because of suggestions from TWI leadership.
Lots of people gave up solid investments (not just houses) because of suggestions from TWI leadership.
I believe my ex would have killed (himself or others) if there was a suggestion from TWI leadership. I think, most likely, he still would to this day.
I believe that, if someone initiated some kind of attack on us because of our affiliation with TWI, that I would have killed them, but how much of that would have been self-defense and how much because of TWI expectations.... I can't say. I would like to think I would not have been a hit man for hire, but I can't honestly say for sure.
I would not have killed myself, but, like so many people in Jonestown, IF TWI had come to that, it would have been too late, would it not? I mean, I was involved so deeply and so loyally that most likely I would not have recognized all the alarms and red flags in time to get myself out before the kool-aid was served.
If they had told everyone we needed to come to HQ immediately for a "spiritual emergency", how many of us would have gone? My ex and I would have moved heaven and earth to get there for the "spiritually important event of the year" and by then, it would have been too late.
I think TWI leadership knows just how far they can push people and it's only their knowing where "that line" is that keeps them from crossing it.
I think TWI leadership knows just how far they can push people and it's only their knowing where "that line" is that keeps them from crossing it.
they've always pushed the line... I think they've always had to push people to find out where it is... a few suicides here, divorces there... then oops, we just lost most of our people, guess we can't do THAT again.
if twi weren't a "church" its leaders would be behind bars. only their tax status protects them from financial accountability, and their mafia behavior protected them from the rest of it. seems like they've only backed off recently. now that they have their house built, there is no reason to work toward anything. no one will be asked to do much of anything from here on out, although the expectation for the devoted to go corps is still there.... or maybe I just got good at tuning out their dogging?
During my brief time with TWI (3 years), I did have some of the extreme thoughts that has been mentioned like rounding up and killing homosexuals, but believe it or not, my first TC really talked me out and discouraged me of thinking that way. I left because of a comment that my last TC made when she was dogging me for some stupidity. That comment did startle me when she said that she'll follow LCM to the end of the world. I guess the s#!t really hit the fan after the time I left ('96).
I left because of a comment that my last TC made when she was dogging me for some stupidity. That comment did startle me when she said that she'll follow LCM to the end of the world.
It would appear that the end of the world is Toledo, Ohio...is she still following him?
It would appear that the end of the world is Toledo, Ohio...is she still following him?
I don't know. Last I heard is that she is married with kids and bitching on not buying house when she was parroting about the party line of not buying a house.
If they had told everyone we needed to come to HQ immediately for a "spiritual emergency", how many of us would have gone? My ex and I would have moved heaven and earth to get there for the "spiritually important event of the year" and by then, it would have been too late.
i wonder why they didn't do that more often...
but god i remember how many phone-hookups my parents had to do as limbcoordinators... like almost every day they had a closed door phone hook-up...
"If they had told everyone we needed to come to HQ immediately for a "spiritual emergency", how many of us would have gone? My ex and I would have moved heaven and earth to get there for the "spiritually important event of the year" and by then, it would have been too late."
Funny thing is, that exact thing happened in Fellowlaborers in,I think, 1977.
We were awakened at about 3am on a week night(We all were required to hold down secular jobs so this was really quite a big deal.)
We were told we had 20 minutes to report to limb HQ. It was a 30 minute trip to get there so everyone was "late". We sat in silence for what seemed like a very long time. (This was at the same time as the conspiracy hooplah.) The limb leader then entered the BRC and told us all to go back home, the program was cancelled. He told us we were not living up to our commitment and our tardiness was just another example of our inadequacy. Of course, at the 5:30am FL meeting we were told the program was "back on" and we had better walk the chalk if we wanted it to continue. There were an awful lot of yawning Fellowlaborers by the end of the next day.
Sleep deprivation is a very effective tool for controlling people.
I woulnd't have killed but I remember thinking that I would have died for "the ministry".
Leave my husband or son? No. Steal or cheat? No.
I left twi twenty years ago and my take on it is that the "killin" mentality would be more common in more recent years. People who stayed kept giving up more and more control of their lives. I'm actually surprised that they never resorted to hit squads. I mean, Craig was obviously off his rocker, and now the place is run by people who will do anything to hold onto the power positions.
During the post POP corps week, we and some others nervously joked that if they brought out the kool-aid, we were making a bee-line for highway 29.
I cringe to think....but I know that there is nothing that I would not, and did not do for twi/God.
God would not bless me and Satan would be allowed to kill me if I didn`t.
No matter how personally repulsive, any action required, I did so believing that was the only way to stay in God`s will. To not obey, meant spiritual suicide.
Damned right I would have killed if asked, and if asked I would have died in defense.
It is embarassing to admit, but I drank deeply. I don`t know if it was because I was 17 and had no reference point or guidance when I got involved. I don`t know if it was that I experienced the trauma of the death of a close friend for the first time when I was taking the clas .and was told that it was Satan...having a *family* when mine was such a mess....
I can only look back and shake my head in disbelief.
I can only ask for forgiveness for the harm that I caused, the people whom I neglected.
No I did nothing illegal, I was never asked. I was however required to destroy a wanted unborn child. I gave up everything that was important, my family, my college education, my horses, the wonderfull dog that traveled with me for so many years....
All heartbreakingly difficult decisions, but made because I was told that God required this of me.
How many "spiritual emergencies" did you report for? Weren't there quite a few?
I remember reading about some corps events where people were woken up in the middle of the night and told to report somewhere.
When the lawsuits could no longer be hidden, we had "emergency" meetings at the Moynihans with little to no warning. Just expected to totally rearrange our schedules so that we could be at this "important" meeting regardless of our previous plans.
So many times we were expected to drop everything because of TWI leaders.
Whenever I see a documentary on Jonestown, I always ask myself that question: "Could I have done that if the leadership had asked me?" and my answer has always been no. The reason being because I was always taught by leadership that tragic death is not of God and inspired by devil spirits and that suicide was not of God either. So having learned that, I would have concluded that if the leadership ever were to ask me to commit suicide, I would have known that it was a devil spirit controlling them to ask that of me.
Sorry...my honest answer. I think that TWI covered themselves or screwed themselves, whichever way you want to see it by teaching that to their followers.
I remember clearly the incident Waysider describes, since my sleepy, scared self was also parked at Limb, yawning in disbelief. I was on my second year of busting my butt for nothing, and to this day, other than one guy who was pretty much of a smart a$$ and got kicked out, I still have no blessed idea what that was about. I do think it might have all been staged.
But to drag us out of bed when most of us got to sleep at 11:00 PM or midnight after working a job all day, working at limb hq. at night, having twig, making sure all was "decent and in order" for the next day's work, IMO was just plain cruel. And with no warning for most of us FLO grunts.
Waysider, do you have any idea what the heck that was all about? Other than M*****l ???? getting smart with J** M****? You can PT me if you'd rather; I don't want to derail.
I don't think after that incident I would've killed for my leadership. I was tioo close to just clobbering my leadership, period. At that point in my life, I was pretty clear that TWI was people and God was God. Later.....sigh.
I don't think it's a derail at all. It further demonstrates how difficult it can be at times to see how many of these things are interconnected.
I too have no idea what it was all about other than to condition us to think we were incapable of independent thought.
I do remember P.J.(mens coordinator) was devastated by the incident.
I often think of him and J.G. They were really two of "the good ones".
There were other incidents like this one ,also, though not quite as severe.
Do you remember having to pull an "all nighter" to cut sod and build a campfire circle?
Then,of course, there was the Momentus-Like weekend that broke M.C.
The year after you graduated, the big blizzard hit. Not only were the roads closed, you couldn't even tell where they were. Crews for the power company couldn't even get to non-functioning substations on snow mobile because the winds were almost 90 MPH. At the height of the storm, J** M**** insisted someone come to limb HQ and put cardboard on a window the winds had blown out. It was physically impossible. I don't think we even made it out of the apartment complex before we abandoned G.M.s' truck and hoofed it back home. We were glad to make it back to safety. Even though there was no power and we were snowbound for days, it was a welcome break from the constant stress of having our every moment controlled. Give my regards to that red headed guy you've been sleeping with.
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Vyctorya911
As much as I blindly followed them & hung on every word out of LCM's mouth, there is no way I'd ever do/have done anything illegal/dangerous/harmful for them or anyone else.
My ex & I wound up divorcing because I wanted to leave TWI & he did not. He actually gave up talking to any of his family because of TWI. He refused to have any friends that were not part of them.
Looking back I see how naive that I was to follow most of the instructions I was given when "in" with them. I'm just glad it never lead to something like Jonestown.
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waysider
I think the distinction should be:
1. Were you willing to die for?
2. Were you willing to kill for?
I'll go first
1. Probably, at some point.
2. Nope. Never.
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polar bear
Honestly I would not have done anything illegal, but I would have to say at one point I was so tricked into thinking that I was committed that anything that got in my way had to go.
So yes I think I would have left my wife if she decided not to stand with tiw. I'm glad we finally figured things out and we both left together. I thank God that I still have a wife and family. I will never get involved with any religion again or have anything to do with something that interferes with my wife or family.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Doing something illegal?...That's really vague. If you went out lightbearers and hitch hiked...you did something illegal.
I would never have done anything for twi that I wouldn't have done on my own.
suicide?...no chance
murder?..no chance
driving over the speed limit?...sure, I do it now all the time.
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potato
at one time I thought it was worth fighting for, regardless of cost. I was deluded. I don't think I could have killed someone unless I felt like my life would be in danger if I didn't.
lately, looking back on it, I think if LCM had pulled my ex into a little room and told him to smother me in my sleep because I was a liability, he would have done it.
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doojable
I inhaled, hitched, and I too am guilty of still driving too fast. The things I WOULD NOT DO in the end were the things that led me to leave.
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VeganXTC
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Belle
There's one family who spent time in jail for not paying taxes because of advice from TWI leadership.
There's lots of women who had abortions because of suggestions (and some commands) from TWI leadership.
My ex also cut all contact with his family because of a suggestion from TWI leadership (Moynihan). He wanted me to cut ties with my family, but knew better than to push that issue.
My ex divorced me because I left TWI.
Lots of people gave up college and promising careers because of suggestions from TWI leadership.
Lots of people gave up solid investments (not just houses) because of suggestions from TWI leadership.
I believe my ex would have killed (himself or others) if there was a suggestion from TWI leadership. I think, most likely, he still would to this day.
I believe that, if someone initiated some kind of attack on us because of our affiliation with TWI, that I would have killed them, but how much of that would have been self-defense and how much because of TWI expectations.... I can't say. I would like to think I would not have been a hit man for hire, but I can't honestly say for sure.
I would not have killed myself, but, like so many people in Jonestown, IF TWI had come to that, it would have been too late, would it not? I mean, I was involved so deeply and so loyally that most likely I would not have recognized all the alarms and red flags in time to get myself out before the kool-aid was served.
If they had told everyone we needed to come to HQ immediately for a "spiritual emergency", how many of us would have gone? My ex and I would have moved heaven and earth to get there for the "spiritually important event of the year" and by then, it would have been too late.
I think TWI leadership knows just how far they can push people and it's only their knowing where "that line" is that keeps them from crossing it.
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potato
they've always pushed the line... I think they've always had to push people to find out where it is... a few suicides here, divorces there... then oops, we just lost most of our people, guess we can't do THAT again.
if twi weren't a "church" its leaders would be behind bars. only their tax status protects them from financial accountability, and their mafia behavior protected them from the rest of it. seems like they've only backed off recently. now that they have their house built, there is no reason to work toward anything. no one will be asked to do much of anything from here on out, although the expectation for the devoted to go corps is still there.... or maybe I just got good at tuning out their dogging?
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FreeFromCults
During my brief time with TWI (3 years), I did have some of the extreme thoughts that has been mentioned like rounding up and killing homosexuals, but believe it or not, my first TC really talked me out and discouraged me of thinking that way. I left because of a comment that my last TC made when she was dogging me for some stupidity. That comment did startle me when she said that she'll follow LCM to the end of the world. I guess the s#!t really hit the fan after the time I left ('96).
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GrouchoMarxJr
It would appear that the end of the world is Toledo, Ohio...is she still following him?
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FreeFromCults
I don't know. Last I heard is that she is married with kids and bitching on not buying house when she was parroting about the party line of not buying a house.
What a hypocrite byatch!
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nandon
i wonder why they didn't do that more often...
but god i remember how many phone-hookups my parents had to do as limbcoordinators... like almost every day they had a closed door phone hook-up...
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waysider
Belle said:
"If they had told everyone we needed to come to HQ immediately for a "spiritual emergency", how many of us would have gone? My ex and I would have moved heaven and earth to get there for the "spiritually important event of the year" and by then, it would have been too late."
Funny thing is, that exact thing happened in Fellowlaborers in,I think, 1977.
We were awakened at about 3am on a week night(We all were required to hold down secular jobs so this was really quite a big deal.)
We were told we had 20 minutes to report to limb HQ. It was a 30 minute trip to get there so everyone was "late". We sat in silence for what seemed like a very long time. (This was at the same time as the conspiracy hooplah.) The limb leader then entered the BRC and told us all to go back home, the program was cancelled. He told us we were not living up to our commitment and our tardiness was just another example of our inadequacy. Of course, at the 5:30am FL meeting we were told the program was "back on" and we had better walk the chalk if we wanted it to continue. There were an awful lot of yawning Fellowlaborers by the end of the next day.
Sleep deprivation is a very effective tool for controlling people.
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Tom Strange
It's the old "frog in boiling water" thing...
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tonto
I woulnd't have killed but I remember thinking that I would have died for "the ministry".
Leave my husband or son? No. Steal or cheat? No.
I left twi twenty years ago and my take on it is that the "killin" mentality would be more common in more recent years. People who stayed kept giving up more and more control of their lives. I'm actually surprised that they never resorted to hit squads. I mean, Craig was obviously off his rocker, and now the place is run by people who will do anything to hold onto the power positions.
During the post POP corps week, we and some others nervously joked that if they brought out the kool-aid, we were making a bee-line for highway 29.
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rascal
I cringe to think....but I know that there is nothing that I would not, and did not do for twi/God.
God would not bless me and Satan would be allowed to kill me if I didn`t.
No matter how personally repulsive, any action required, I did so believing that was the only way to stay in God`s will. To not obey, meant spiritual suicide.
Damned right I would have killed if asked, and if asked I would have died in defense.
It is embarassing to admit, but I drank deeply. I don`t know if it was because I was 17 and had no reference point or guidance when I got involved. I don`t know if it was that I experienced the trauma of the death of a close friend for the first time when I was taking the clas .and was told that it was Satan...having a *family* when mine was such a mess....
I can only look back and shake my head in disbelief.
I can only ask for forgiveness for the harm that I caused, the people whom I neglected.
No I did nothing illegal, I was never asked. I was however required to destroy a wanted unborn child. I gave up everything that was important, my family, my college education, my horses, the wonderfull dog that traveled with me for so many years....
All heartbreakingly difficult decisions, but made because I was told that God required this of me.
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potato
((((((((((rascal))))))))))!!!
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Belle
How many "spiritual emergencies" did you report for? Weren't there quite a few?
I remember reading about some corps events where people were woken up in the middle of the night and told to report somewhere.
When the lawsuits could no longer be hidden, we had "emergency" meetings at the Moynihans with little to no warning. Just expected to totally rearrange our schedules so that we could be at this "important" meeting regardless of our previous plans.
So many times we were expected to drop everything because of TWI leaders.
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coolchef
damn i was never that brain washed! thank God
but
tfwi {thw way f,,,k international did kill me emotionally and spritually {did i mention it cost me a family and house too?}
but thanks to Christ you may call me lazarus for i have been risen from twi's deep and dark grave
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Ex_16th_MB
Whenever I see a documentary on Jonestown, I always ask myself that question: "Could I have done that if the leadership had asked me?" and my answer has always been no. The reason being because I was always taught by leadership that tragic death is not of God and inspired by devil spirits and that suicide was not of God either. So having learned that, I would have concluded that if the leadership ever were to ask me to commit suicide, I would have known that it was a devil spirit controlling them to ask that of me.
Sorry...my honest answer. I think that TWI covered themselves or screwed themselves, whichever way you want to see it by teaching that to their followers.
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Watered Garden
I remember clearly the incident Waysider describes, since my sleepy, scared self was also parked at Limb, yawning in disbelief. I was on my second year of busting my butt for nothing, and to this day, other than one guy who was pretty much of a smart a$$ and got kicked out, I still have no blessed idea what that was about. I do think it might have all been staged.
But to drag us out of bed when most of us got to sleep at 11:00 PM or midnight after working a job all day, working at limb hq. at night, having twig, making sure all was "decent and in order" for the next day's work, IMO was just plain cruel. And with no warning for most of us FLO grunts.
Waysider, do you have any idea what the heck that was all about? Other than M*****l ???? getting smart with J** M****? You can PT me if you'd rather; I don't want to derail.
I don't think after that incident I would've killed for my leadership. I was tioo close to just clobbering my leadership, period. At that point in my life, I was pretty clear that TWI was people and God was God. Later.....sigh.
WG
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excathedra
oh i guess i only let my WHATEVER LOCKBOX go as far as to protect the MAN OF GOD from reporting rape
that must have helped protect the ministry and move the word, eh ?
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waysider
Watered Garden
I don't think it's a derail at all. It further demonstrates how difficult it can be at times to see how many of these things are interconnected.
I too have no idea what it was all about other than to condition us to think we were incapable of independent thought.
I do remember P.J.(mens coordinator) was devastated by the incident.
I often think of him and J.G. They were really two of "the good ones".
There were other incidents like this one ,also, though not quite as severe.
Do you remember having to pull an "all nighter" to cut sod and build a campfire circle?
Then,of course, there was the Momentus-Like weekend that broke M.C.
The year after you graduated, the big blizzard hit. Not only were the roads closed, you couldn't even tell where they were. Crews for the power company couldn't even get to non-functioning substations on snow mobile because the winds were almost 90 MPH. At the height of the storm, J** M**** insisted someone come to limb HQ and put cardboard on a window the winds had blown out. It was physically impossible. I don't think we even made it out of the apartment complex before we abandoned G.M.s' truck and hoofed it back home. We were glad to make it back to safety. Even though there was no power and we were snowbound for days, it was a welcome break from the constant stress of having our every moment controlled. Give my regards to that red headed guy you've been sleeping with.
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