Doesn't matter. God in his foreknowledge knew that Paul would murder. So, if murder is a disqualification for someone to receive revelation, it would have applied to Saul of Tarsus. I think this may be a continuation of the religious belief that "God doesn't dwell in an unclean vessel". But bear in mind, the bible says we all are unclean, we all sin.
Golly if sinning kept God away from us, we'd all be in the soup.
Then God in his foreknowledge also knew Paul would repent and change. Saul, btw, paid a steep price for his sins. Yes we all sin, yes God is just and merciful in forgiving our sins. However, we are people, not Gods. Do we do eachother a service if we allow rapist to run free because they may be born again and then forgiven?
Obviously, VPW is dead and gone, he cannot rape, take advantage of, or otherwise abuse others. However, his legacy lives on and has been passed down, via his teachings and examples to the inner circle, as evidenced by LCM himself, as evidenced by teachings that eventually became more public and widely acceptable regarding a woman's body and a man's need.
Those teachings and the actions that were taken because of them need to be exposed so they are not repeated.
Oldies, I am curious....do Jim Jones and David Koresche get the same pass you are giving vpw in your book?
Well we've discussed this one before; regarding Koresh, I still believe the FBI killed those folks in the compound as payback for the BATF deaths. I don't hold Koresh responsible. See the film "Waco The Rules of Engagement" for my belief on this one.
Regarding Jones, don't know, can't really say but I still believe that one doesn't lose salvation because of sins after salvation. I still believe what we were taught that once someone becomes a child of God, its permanent. I still believe that Wierwille was born again.
Do the followers still owe their leaders a debt of gratitude for teaching them the scriptures??
I don`t ask this flippantly, I ask in all seriousness.
I think it depends on the individual and how one feels about it.
Oldies, their death at the atf`s hands was not what I was talking about. I was talking about how Koresche`s followers daughters became brides for Jesus as young as 13 years old. The man fathered many children with these youngsters. He led people to their deaths.
Jim Jones his followers to their deaths.
These men, like wirewille taught scriptures, yet people who were seeking God were used and died. I do not believe that they were Godly spiritual men. I do not believe that wierwille was either or he couldn`t have hurt people the way he was.
To asume that God would work this way is an insult in my opinion.
These men, like wirewille taught scriptures, yet people who were seeking God were used and died. I do not believe that they were Godly spiritual men. I do not believe that wierwille was either or he couldn`t have hurt people the way he was.
To asume that God would work this way is an insult in my opinion.
Im sure that if you looked hard enough someone out there still believes that Koresh was the "real Deal", or Moe Berg or any of the off the wall bible quoters anywhere.
People still hold a religious fervency for L.Ron Hubbard and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi even though their stuff has been debunked time and time again for decades, it goes with the cult territory
Im not going to get worked up that someone thinks Wierwille is 'The Real Deal", go right ahead believe it. Its your life
The Titanic is unsinkable and the moon is made of creamcheese too.
It's obvious God works this way even knowing about all the sinning of mankind.
***********************
Do you really believe that Wierwille has done anything close to deserving eternal death?
That's what we're talking about.
I can't fathom someone actually believing this. Goodness, I'm glad my thoughts are different.
"Do you really believe that Wierwille has done anything close to deserving eternal death?"
Not my call to make.
After hearing accounts of his physical disgressions,though, it has occurred to me that , as heinous as they were, they didn't compare to how he spiritually raped some of us, depriving us of ever trusting any organized religion or organization again.
Well, that is my point. You can't even read it -- try having to have lived it.
If you did then your opinion would not be what it is.
If you can't look at it or read it -- then you really would have hated VPW's ministry -- 'cause that was his ministry. Can't see yourself in that situation...
Neither could I, or the umpteen others, but one day there it was -- the truth, the man behind the curtain wasn't trying to lead me to Jesus but rather wanted to pull a stiff one eye. It was all about him.
The reason you love what he "said" is you only heard him repeat the words of the WORD of God. That tells me how powerful God's word is, that even on the lips of a man using it to boink teenagers -- the words off those beautiful pages still reached a heart looking for a loving God.
It was the power of Jesus Christ reaching you, with the words from a man, whom I do not think really ever believed the Bible, or could not have done the things he did -- (repeatedly).
It would be like a person who wants to make fun of the Bible reads a few verses to mock God -- and you heard them, and even through the mockery God's love was so strong they reached past the mocker and still gave love.
VPW was NOT a great man. God is a great God to have such a powerful love that it could be uttered by a fool and still reach the heart of a person.
Praise God, not VPW -- he really really is not worth your loyalty
VP was a sexual predator, who should have spent time behind bars. He took a position of authority and used it to satisfy his carnal wants. A sick, sick man, and I'm sad to have had anything to do with him or his ministry.
I certainly will never ever buy or accept that I have to be loving and forgiving to those that ABUSED ME or OTHERS
Well, that's your problem. The Word says that when we were still his enemies, Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8) So what are you saying, that you will only be loving to those who love you? What reward will the Lord give you for that? (Matt. 5:46)
Watered Garden,
Oh and by the way - God saves, not VPW
Yes, God saves, God does many things but usually not without the cooperation of human beings. The ministry of reconciliation has been given to US.(2 Cor. 5:18)
People see the love of God when a person who rises up to put on the love of God, manifests it to others. Likewise with being saved. God saves, but only when someone who has the love and the boldness to share the message, speaks it to someone. How will they hear without someone preaching the message to them? (Rom. 10:14)
God isn't going to come down and personally witness to them and get them saved. He's invited us to do that.
Bolshevik,
None of us has used our position as "the man of God" to abuse our people
Hmmm, none of you? Ever? Not in any way? Mighty spiritual you must be.
Consider how much that we learned and believed while in TWI that we accepted just because Wierwille said so
Whose fault is that?
26 years I've been with The Way. Never, Never Never Never Never seen a soul saved, or a life turned for the better.
Why the hell did you stay for 26 years then? I saw plenty saved, right in my own fellowship...oh yeah, lives turned around too...the Word can do that, ya know?
WhatTheHey,
I have read your posts, and I am left with the question..."what the hey?" :wacko:
Abigail,
If there is a devil, then said being is still subject to the will of God. God gave MAN free will - I do not see where God gave such to the spirit realm.
You gotta be jokin' me, right? So Lucifer was lifted up with pride because God made him? :blink:
Mister-P-Mosh,
There have been women other than my wife interested in me, yet I haven't and won't sleep with them. Why? Because I have morals, self-discipline, and respect for my family. I'm an atheist. I have no gods helping me, yet I am capable of resisting temptation.
Maybe when it comes to adultery. But you have your deep rooted habits of sin just like the rest of us. You may be an atheist, but I'm sure you have a few gods in your life, you just don't know it.
According to some statistics, there are five times as many Scientologists in the world than your number of TWI followers (which is probably extremely inflated.) Does that mean that L. Ron Hubbard was a greater prophet than VPW? Let's not even get started on how many followers of Islam there are.
Uh, those are false religions. I'm sure there are many more animal rights activists than there has ever been people in TWI. So what? Any believer who has reached out to win even one person has done greater than them.
Jim,
He||, I think he's cabinet material. Give him 20-30 year and he could be the MOGFOT.
I was laughing so hard when I read that. Thanks for the good laugh!...sincerely!
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rascal
Oldies, I am curious....do Jim Jones and David Koresche get the same pass you are giving vpw in your book?
Do the followers still owe their leaders a debt of gratitude for teaching them the scriptures??
I don`t ask this flippantly, I ask in all seriousness.
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Abigail
Then God in his foreknowledge also knew Paul would repent and change. Saul, btw, paid a steep price for his sins. Yes we all sin, yes God is just and merciful in forgiving our sins. However, we are people, not Gods. Do we do eachother a service if we allow rapist to run free because they may be born again and then forgiven?
Obviously, VPW is dead and gone, he cannot rape, take advantage of, or otherwise abuse others. However, his legacy lives on and has been passed down, via his teachings and examples to the inner circle, as evidenced by LCM himself, as evidenced by teachings that eventually became more public and widely acceptable regarding a woman's body and a man's need.
Those teachings and the actions that were taken because of them need to be exposed so they are not repeated.
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Ham
One kid here, child of two "faithful" ones here, kinda dissapeared quietly into the next town.
I was really suspicious.
Any inquiry was met with "oh, he's doing fine.." with little details.
I got the impression that for me to talk with him was the last thing they wanted.
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Bolshevik
Lone Wolf McQuade vs. Walker, Texas Ranger?
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waysider
Chuck Norris = Lone Wolf McQuade =Walker, Texas Ranger.
Man! ------This trinity stuff is really starting to gel for me!
Oh sorry, that's on another thread.
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Bolshevik
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oldiesman
Well we've discussed this one before; regarding Koresh, I still believe the FBI killed those folks in the compound as payback for the BATF deaths. I don't hold Koresh responsible. See the film "Waco The Rules of Engagement" for my belief on this one.
Regarding Jones, don't know, can't really say but I still believe that one doesn't lose salvation because of sins after salvation. I still believe what we were taught that once someone becomes a child of God, its permanent. I still believe that Wierwille was born again.
I think it depends on the individual and how one feels about it.
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rascal
Oldies, their death at the atf`s hands was not what I was talking about. I was talking about how Koresche`s followers daughters became brides for Jesus as young as 13 years old. The man fathered many children with these youngsters. He led people to their deaths.
Jim Jones his followers to their deaths.
These men, like wirewille taught scriptures, yet people who were seeking God were used and died. I do not believe that they were Godly spiritual men. I do not believe that wierwille was either or he couldn`t have hurt people the way he was.
To asume that God would work this way is an insult in my opinion.
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oldiesman
It's obvious God works this way even knowing about all the sinning of mankind.
***********************
Do you really believe that Wierwille has done anything close to deserving eternal death?
That's what we're talking about.
I can't fathom someone actually believing this. Goodness, I'm glad my thoughts are different.
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What The Hey
It is probably a good thing then that VPW never said, "I wish I were the man you know to be."
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mstar1
Im sure that if you looked hard enough someone out there still believes that Koresh was the "real Deal", or Moe Berg or any of the off the wall bible quoters anywhere.
People still hold a religious fervency for L.Ron Hubbard and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi even though their stuff has been debunked time and time again for decades, it goes with the cult territory
Im not going to get worked up that someone thinks Wierwille is 'The Real Deal", go right ahead believe it. Its your life
The Titanic is unsinkable and the moon is made of creamcheese too.
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Ham
Interpretation:
"I raped, pillaged and plundered, even when I KNEW BETTER".
I imagine the next thought was "ah, if only I was young again.."
Ya know, ole vic did manage to relive his youth, vicariously, through loy..
loy grew up to be not the man that vic knew to be too.
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Ham
My math 300 instructor would take five points off for something like this..
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another spot
Click on image to see full size....I always did think lcm looked like a pig...
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excathedra
ohmygod
i didn't see lcm at first but i recognized the pig before i even clicked on the thumbnail (or whatever you call it)
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Bolshevik
The moon is chedder cheese.
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excathedra
exactly
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waysider
"Do you really believe that Wierwille has done anything close to deserving eternal death?"
Not my call to make.
After hearing accounts of his physical disgressions,though, it has occurred to me that , as heinous as they were, they didn't compare to how he spiritually raped some of us, depriving us of ever trusting any organized religion or organization again.
edited for spelling error
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excathedra
was "real deal" ever defined ?
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waysider
Nope.(See post #52)
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Dot Matrix
Hard to read it, huh?
Well, that is my point. You can't even read it -- try having to have lived it.
If you did then your opinion would not be what it is.
If you can't look at it or read it -- then you really would have hated VPW's ministry -- 'cause that was his ministry. Can't see yourself in that situation...
Neither could I, or the umpteen others, but one day there it was -- the truth, the man behind the curtain wasn't trying to lead me to Jesus but rather wanted to pull a stiff one eye. It was all about him.
The reason you love what he "said" is you only heard him repeat the words of the WORD of God. That tells me how powerful God's word is, that even on the lips of a man using it to boink teenagers -- the words off those beautiful pages still reached a heart looking for a loving God.
It was the power of Jesus Christ reaching you, with the words from a man, whom I do not think really ever believed the Bible, or could not have done the things he did -- (repeatedly).
It would be like a person who wants to make fun of the Bible reads a few verses to mock God -- and you heard them, and even through the mockery God's love was so strong they reached past the mocker and still gave love.
VPW was NOT a great man. God is a great God to have such a powerful love that it could be uttered by a fool and still reach the heart of a person.
Praise God, not VPW -- he really really is not worth your loyalty
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Wanderer
VP was a sexual predator, who should have spent time behind bars. He took a position of authority and used it to satisfy his carnal wants. A sick, sick man, and I'm sad to have had anything to do with him or his ministry.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Full Circle,
Well, that's your problem. The Word says that when we were still his enemies, Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8) So what are you saying, that you will only be loving to those who love you? What reward will the Lord give you for that? (Matt. 5:46)Watered Garden,
Yes, God saves, God does many things but usually not without the cooperation of human beings. The ministry of reconciliation has been given to US.(2 Cor. 5:18)
People see the love of God when a person who rises up to put on the love of God, manifests it to others. Likewise with being saved. God saves, but only when someone who has the love and the boldness to share the message, speaks it to someone. How will they hear without someone preaching the message to them? (Rom. 10:14)
God isn't going to come down and personally witness to them and get them saved. He's invited us to do that.
Bolshevik,
Hmmm, none of you? Ever? Not in any way? Mighty spiritual you must be.Whose fault is that?
Why the hell did you stay for 26 years then? I saw plenty saved, right in my own fellowship...oh yeah, lives turned around too...the Word can do that, ya know?WhatTheHey,
I have read your posts, and I am left with the question..."what the hey?" :wacko:
Abigail,
You gotta be jokin' me, right? So Lucifer was lifted up with pride because God made him? :blink:
Mister-P-Mosh,
Maybe when it comes to adultery. But you have your deep rooted habits of sin just like the rest of us. You may be an atheist, but I'm sure you have a few gods in your life, you just don't know it.Uh, those are false religions. I'm sure there are many more animal rights activists than there has ever been people in TWI. So what? Any believer who has reached out to win even one person has done greater than them.
Jim,
I was laughing so hard when I read that. Thanks for the good laugh!...sincerely!
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excathedra
mc quade
leave a lot of this up to god
and
shut up ;)
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