Many on this site who are knowledgeable of the scriptures owe a debt of gratitude to his hard work. OK so he "stole" some lines here and there. That doesn't change the fact that he still gave his life to teaching the Word and in his heart of hearts really wanted to be his best for God (don't we all?) but he fell into the flesh. Should I discount everything great the man did?
Did you personally know him?
Were you invited to put your lips on a place on his body in a motor coach? Might of freaked you out.
Did you ever have him then set you up because you didn't want to give joy to the joy stick? Retaliation for failed manipulation
And what word did he teach? After putting out PFAL, BG leonard's stolen class, he went on to show us porn flicks, tell us how a father should/did/can teach his own daughters about sex -- siteing such things as in Africa the Father breaks the hymen of the daughter to prepare her fo marriage. He was very pro this idea. Ummm teaching others pediphilia and incest is acceptable
So, you got a little something from PFAL -- most, if not ALL did. Why not write BG Leonard's widow and thank her, they did all the research.
Wanted to "be his best?" He wanted to satisfy a 60 + years of an out of control woody. He also lied about his wife saying she had vaginal problems and could not satisfy him to bait young stupid girls.
While he "taught his heart out" he would have girls waiting for him, or setting up new prey... That is your great guy. Sorry to pop your bubble.
There's no doubt VPW made mistakes, VPW had weaknesses, VPW fell into the flesh....well whoopdie-doo. You guys seem to forget that VPW was just a man. And like any man he had a sin nature tugging on his heart and whispering in his ear.
LoneWolf -- many women here can tell of (and have already done so in the past),
just how absolutely-fuggin-correct (minus the whoopdie-doo part),
your statement is.
I feel like making popcorn, and selling front row tickets.
Hope you have asbestos undies on. You'll need them.
Get some chest-waders, while you're at it. You just jumped in deeper than you imagined.
Docvic was a pervert. Yea -- Guess you could call him the *real deal*.
You've got your hands full with your (as you put it) ludicrous claims.
Do yourself a favor (and us as well), and spend some time looking at the stories here at GSC
(many first-hand accounts) of the abuse instigated by that MAN in the name of God.
He was a drunk, a womanizer, and a plagiarist (not necessarily in that order).
Sorry to *pop* (where have I heard THAT term before??) your cartoon bubble,
but you need to wake up and smell the coffee.
And FYI --- I wasn't one of the 100,000 he got *born again*, (numbers that you claim).
I was happily on my way to Paradise, before being hijacked by docvic and twi.
sigh...yet another *expert* that never met the man personally nor suffered directly at his hands.
People suffered...people died...you`re damned right...it IS a big whoopdie doo.
I wonder if the people who don`t think the rampant adultery, the alcoholism, the drugging and rapes, tell themselves, anmd try to convince others...that it simply *isn`t a big deal* because they don`t want to curb their own fleshly natures....that they want to believe that they are ok too.
quote: VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life.
Amen.
quote: Then that would mean one of two things if VP was the real thing.
1. There is no God. Just the devil.
2. God sucks.
THAT'S the deception. I hear the same crap from unbelievers all the time; if God exists why is there war,etc. Who ever guaranteed us a free ride? In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children....cursed is the ground...in sorrow shalt eat of it...remember? Spiritual welfare, indeed.
JohnIam and JeanIam (I am sure you will be chiming in soon), I purposely do not comment to 99% of your posts.
Since I have come here and posted my opinion, mind you, I stay off of thread usually that are positive about the Way, until this one, which seemed opened for debate, I still had JohnIam following me around from thread to thread as a VP Pooper Scooper having to post to undo anything I said.
I am tired of it.
JohnIAm and JeanIam, I am tired of being followed by a VP pooper scooper, and I will NOT have a pair of pooper scoopers following me.
Leave me and my opinions alone. You don't like what you read from me? Don't read me and certainly don't respond to me and certainly never contact me privately.
Do I make myself clear?
As for my post being deception, good I am glad you think so. Maybe now you will leave me alone.
But I certainly will never ever buy or accept that I have to be loving and forgiving to those that ABUSED ME or OTHERS in the name of God because of all the cliches of free will, suffering, welfare and warfare. Been there and done that and I allowed so much crap into my life, especially at the hands of TWI that I will never ever tolerate it again. If the best any God can do is to use the likes of VP and the pedophiles in the Church, both Catholic and Protestant to teach his word or lead his people, that is one God I want nothing of.
Personally I do believe in God. And I do think that he is abhorred by what others claim in his name to perpetuate their own spiritual illnesses. Again, I will never ever be silenced by the shame that some promote in the way of cliches, hell, forgiveness, getting devil possessed, losing rewards, children dying and all that hoopla. It's nothing but fear motivation, the piped piper call to get everyone into line and obeying. Only I won't do that, ever again.
Ever watch Kingdom of God. Amazing how the call of "God wills it" or "Allah wills it" moves everyone into a frenzied formation to follow the leader. Not me. If it's rotten, it's rotten. I don't buy the lame walked or the blind saw because it never happened, not in TWI and now don't back peddal saying you meant figuratively.
For once I would like someone to share a loving God, who cares about his reputation and what people do in his name and to his people and not try to smooth it over with "God wills it" or "It's the Word" or "You're dividing the Household". I would like to see a God who takes better care of his children than a fallible mother would her own. You have that God, who doesn't need sexual predators to move his word? Let me know.
If VP was the real thing, then we of all men are most miserable.
If the best any God can do is to use the likes of VP and the pedophiles in the Church, both Catholic and Protestant to teach his word or lead his people, that is one God I want nothing of.
Hear! Hear!
Lone Wolf & JohnIam,
Ya know, for a man who folks like you say is long dead, and can no longer speak for himself, you guys make a lot of desperate and insecure efforts to dig his rotten, corrupt corpse of his reputation out of the grave.
Getting 100,000 people 'born again'? As far as I know (and I spent 10 years in TWI) most of those who went thru the class were already Christian.
and I will NOT have a pair of pooper scoopers following me.
If VP was the real thing, then we of all men are most miserable
Are you really referring to your own posts as poop, or possibly another 8 letter word that means the same thing? Just curious. And BTW that's not a Bible quote.
Remember those commercials with an egg and a frying pan? This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs.
Considering the path of destruction of Vic/TWI being collateral damage in doing God's work? Your brain is fried and you're a public service announcement warning others to just say no!
VPW and LCM also corrupted many men in TWI too who bought into his sexual theories and practises. Both these men and their cohorts have caused told and untold amounts of distructive evil. They have damaged and literally dismantled and destroyed countless live with their selfish arrogance. When you bait people; it is intentional and premeditated.
We did learn godly things, get born again; but God says we were called before the foundation of the world;......that he foreknow we would believe....so that would have been accomplished anyway...probably without as much wreck and ruin of lives...lives that will go on impacting other lives for a very long long reaching effect for years to come. All of our lives touch other people's lives now in ways that they may not have if these leaders had been truly responsible and convicted in a godly way for God's people; instead of a devilish way!!!!!!!!!!
Are you really referring to your own posts as poop, or possibly another 8 letter word that means the same thing? Just curious. And BTW that's not a Bible quote.
I believe FullCircle quoted 1 Cor 15:19.
And we don't care much for stalking posters around the forums.
Quote: "If the best God can do is VP...to teach his word and lead his people, that is a God I want no part of."
The best God could do to lead His people include David (an adulterer and a murderer) who God refers to as a man after his own heart and that's AFTER the aforementioned adultery and murder, and the apostle Paul (also a murderer) who received the revelation of the church epistles, without which we wouldn't know that these people WERE our brothers and sisters in Christ.
And we don't care much for stalking posters around the forums.
Just a warning.
1 Cor 15:19 is talking about the hope. And BTW, I am not stalking Full Circle. I think this is the first time I have responded to one of his posts, or at least the first time I remember.
Ahhh but DAVID was never born again WAS he? So Jean...you are comparing vpw with a man of the flesh? David din`t have spirit to guide him....now THAT I can buy. VPW`s actions certainly would indicate that he was *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God* That is what galatians says about him anyway.
Didn't doc vic meet Howard Allen at an AA meeting?
Anyway, he took Leonard's material and Alcoholics Anonymous's insight into human nature, imo, wove them together, and raised the money and filmed a class.
We, the believers, were the God-fearing people who ran the classes and got the people to come and hear the truths that he presented from those and probably other sources.
That he was the one presenting the material did not negate the truth in some of the material that helped some get born again and others SIT for the first time. Personally, I was saved and had spoken in tongues before ever hearing of him so to say 100,000 got born again is ludicrious. Most people I took PFAL with grew up going to church and were already saved.
But, you're not the first to come here with that opinion, initially.
You know I see everyones comments about how VPW was basically an egotistical, womanizing, plagiarist, who did nothing but seek glory from men and destroy the lives of others. This is completely ludicrous.
Just wonder. Where in the world do you think loy LEARNED his despicible behavior? He didn't just make it up as he went along.
Not just loy either. The group was/is corrupt from top down. Who was at the top?
None of us have forgotten that Wierwille was just a man and therefore subject to weakness and error
None of us claim to be with out weakness and error ourselves
None of us have started our own "ministry" where, despite a claim to look only to "The Word" as our standard, the standard was our own interpretation of the bible
None of us has used our position as "the man of God" to abuse our people
Consider how much that we learned and believed while in TWI that we accepted just because Wierwille said so. We took his word for many things because he had convinced us that he was trustworthy. If we had known from the outset that he was a lying, abusive plagiarist, I doubt that many, if any of us would have given TWI a second look. It is in hindsight, after having integrated TWI teaching into our personal belief system, that many of us minimize Wierwille's character and put his teachings on a pedestal.
Some are probably thinking that they didn't blindly accept TWI solely on Wierwille's word; did you verify the definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that Wierwille gave us? Did you verify the accuracy of all the little "orientalisms" and customs, like the 'old piece of research' that claimed that boys were bar-mitzvahed at 12 when they were considered illegitimate? Did you ever that text in the 'original' language where "God" was the first word in Genesis? If not, then I doubt that you did anything but believe things because Wierwille said so.
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Dot Matrix
Did you personally know him?
Were you invited to put your lips on a place on his body in a motor coach? Might of freaked you out.
Did you ever have him then set you up because you didn't want to give joy to the joy stick? Retaliation for failed manipulation
And what word did he teach? After putting out PFAL, BG leonard's stolen class, he went on to show us porn flicks, tell us how a father should/did/can teach his own daughters about sex -- siteing such things as in Africa the Father breaks the hymen of the daughter to prepare her fo marriage. He was very pro this idea. Ummm teaching others pediphilia and incest is acceptable
So, you got a little something from PFAL -- most, if not ALL did. Why not write BG Leonard's widow and thank her, they did all the research.
Wanted to "be his best?" He wanted to satisfy a 60 + years of an out of control woody. He also lied about his wife saying she had vaginal problems and could not satisfy him to bait young stupid girls.
While he "taught his heart out" he would have girls waiting for him, or setting up new prey... That is your great guy. Sorry to pop your bubble.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/way/eisegsis2.htm
Welcome to GS.
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dmiller
LoneWolf -- many women here can tell of (and have already done so in the past),
just how absolutely-fuggin-correct (minus the whoopdie-doo part),
your statement is.
I feel like making popcorn, and selling front row tickets.
Hope you have asbestos undies on. You'll need them.
Get some chest-waders, while you're at it. You just jumped in deeper than you imagined.
Docvic was a pervert. Yea -- Guess you could call him the *real deal*.
You've got your hands full with your (as you put it) ludicrous claims.
Do yourself a favor (and us as well), and spend some time looking at the stories here at GSC
(many first-hand accounts) of the abuse instigated by that MAN in the name of God.
He was a drunk, a womanizer, and a plagiarist (not necessarily in that order).
Sorry to *pop* (where have I heard THAT term before??) your cartoon bubble,
but you need to wake up and smell the coffee.
And FYI --- I wasn't one of the 100,000 he got *born again*, (numbers that you claim).
I was happily on my way to Paradise, before being hijacked by docvic and twi.
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rascal
sigh...yet another *expert* that never met the man personally nor suffered directly at his hands.
People suffered...people died...you`re damned right...it IS a big whoopdie doo.
I wonder if the people who don`t think the rampant adultery, the alcoholism, the drugging and rapes, tell themselves, anmd try to convince others...that it simply *isn`t a big deal* because they don`t want to curb their own fleshly natures....that they want to believe that they are ok too.
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FullCircle
Then that would mean one of two things if VP was the real thing.
1. There is no God. Just the devil.
2. God sucks.
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polar bear
Like any other field or forum you should read through them first to gain some general insight before you start posting.
It will help you see the broad picture of things.
Once you put out a braod statement like that it's hard to take it back.
Of course God works and there were Godly people that got attracted to VPs ministry.
But I think once you read through this forum you will see he was in it for the money and attention.
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johniam
quote: VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life.
Amen.
quote: Then that would mean one of two things if VP was the real thing.
1. There is no God. Just the devil.
2. God sucks.
THAT'S the deception. I hear the same crap from unbelievers all the time; if God exists why is there war,etc. Who ever guaranteed us a free ride? In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children....cursed is the ground...in sorrow shalt eat of it...remember? Spiritual welfare, indeed.
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FullCircle
JohnIam and JeanIam (I am sure you will be chiming in soon), I purposely do not comment to 99% of your posts.
Since I have come here and posted my opinion, mind you, I stay off of thread usually that are positive about the Way, until this one, which seemed opened for debate, I still had JohnIam following me around from thread to thread as a VP Pooper Scooper having to post to undo anything I said.
I am tired of it.
JohnIAm and JeanIam, I am tired of being followed by a VP pooper scooper, and I will NOT have a pair of pooper scoopers following me.
Leave me and my opinions alone. You don't like what you read from me? Don't read me and certainly don't respond to me and certainly never contact me privately.
Do I make myself clear?
As for my post being deception, good I am glad you think so. Maybe now you will leave me alone.
But I certainly will never ever buy or accept that I have to be loving and forgiving to those that ABUSED ME or OTHERS in the name of God because of all the cliches of free will, suffering, welfare and warfare. Been there and done that and I allowed so much crap into my life, especially at the hands of TWI that I will never ever tolerate it again. If the best any God can do is to use the likes of VP and the pedophiles in the Church, both Catholic and Protestant to teach his word or lead his people, that is one God I want nothing of.
Personally I do believe in God. And I do think that he is abhorred by what others claim in his name to perpetuate their own spiritual illnesses. Again, I will never ever be silenced by the shame that some promote in the way of cliches, hell, forgiveness, getting devil possessed, losing rewards, children dying and all that hoopla. It's nothing but fear motivation, the piped piper call to get everyone into line and obeying. Only I won't do that, ever again.
Ever watch Kingdom of God. Amazing how the call of "God wills it" or "Allah wills it" moves everyone into a frenzied formation to follow the leader. Not me. If it's rotten, it's rotten. I don't buy the lame walked or the blind saw because it never happened, not in TWI and now don't back peddal saying you meant figuratively.
For once I would like someone to share a loving God, who cares about his reputation and what people do in his name and to his people and not try to smooth it over with "God wills it" or "It's the Word" or "You're dividing the Household". I would like to see a God who takes better care of his children than a fallible mother would her own. You have that God, who doesn't need sexual predators to move his word? Let me know.
If VP was the real thing, then we of all men are most miserable.
There's a bible quote for you.
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Danny
Where is a mod washer when you need one?
This should be in Just Plain Silly.
Or maybe we should start a sub thing and call it
Just Plain Stupid.
For surly we would be of all men most blind.
Would this be like VP taking place of the absent Christ?
Maybe you should change your name to Lonely Wolf.
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GarthP2000
Hear! Hear!
Lone Wolf & JohnIam,
Ya know, for a man who folks like you say is long dead, and can no longer speak for himself, you guys make a lot of desperate and insecure efforts to dig his rotten, corrupt corpse of his reputation out of the grave.
Getting 100,000 people 'born again'? As far as I know (and I spent 10 years in TWI) most of those who went thru the class were already Christian.
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Jeaniam
Are you really referring to your own posts as poop, or possibly another 8 letter word that means the same thing? Just curious. And BTW that's not a Bible quote.
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Tom Strange
Accurate post my friend... accurate post... rare insight indeed!
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Watered Garden
You can make that 100,000 figure into 99,999, bubba. I was saved a long time before I ever heard of TWI.
Oh and by the way - God saves, not VPW, not LCM, not Mickey Mouse. Only God can save to the uttermost.
And Jesus Christ is the Real Deal, the only Real Deal there ever has been and ever will be.
WG
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GT
This is right where it belongs.
Remember those commercials with an egg and a frying pan? This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs.
Considering the path of destruction of Vic/TWI being collateral damage in doing God's work? Your brain is fried and you're a public service announcement warning others to just say no!
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RainbowsGirl
VPW and LCM also corrupted many men in TWI too who bought into his sexual theories and practises. Both these men and their cohorts have caused told and untold amounts of distructive evil. They have damaged and literally dismantled and destroyed countless live with their selfish arrogance. When you bait people; it is intentional and premeditated.
We did learn godly things, get born again; but God says we were called before the foundation of the world;......that he foreknow we would believe....so that would have been accomplished anyway...probably without as much wreck and ruin of lives...lives that will go on impacting other lives for a very long long reaching effect for years to come. All of our lives touch other people's lives now in ways that they may not have if these leaders had been truly responsible and convicted in a godly way for God's people; instead of a devilish way!!!!!!!!!!
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GT
I believe FullCircle quoted 1 Cor 15:19.
And we don't care much for stalking posters around the forums.
Just a warning.
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WhiteDove
David I'll take two tickets front row for the movie of the week "Demolition Derby" No popcorn for me though......Do you have any hot dogs left?
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Bolshevik
Mr. Lone Wolf,
You'd make a great Way Corps Minister.
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Jeaniam
Quote: "If the best God can do is VP...to teach his word and lead his people, that is a God I want no part of."
The best God could do to lead His people include David (an adulterer and a murderer) who God refers to as a man after his own heart and that's AFTER the aforementioned adultery and murder, and the apostle Paul (also a murderer) who received the revelation of the church epistles, without which we wouldn't know that these people WERE our brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Jeaniam
1 Cor 15:19 is talking about the hope. And BTW, I am not stalking Full Circle. I think this is the first time I have responded to one of his posts, or at least the first time I remember.
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Bolshevik
If the points in VPWs books are valid, take them through out VPW.
VPW is reverenced like a god at twi. He is not dead.
TWI is an aggressive and dangerous organization. Obedience is kept by using death threats. i.e. if you leave the adversary will kill you.
Yes he was a man. His effects are not in the past. Twi still exists and must be destroyed.
Mr. McQuade,
when's the last time you've been to HQ?
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rascal
Ahhh but DAVID was never born again WAS he? So Jean...you are comparing vpw with a man of the flesh? David din`t have spirit to guide him....now THAT I can buy. VPW`s actions certainly would indicate that he was *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God* That is what galatians says about him anyway.
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waterbuffalo
Didn't doc vic meet Howard Allen at an AA meeting?
Anyway, he took Leonard's material and Alcoholics Anonymous's insight into human nature, imo, wove them together, and raised the money and filmed a class.
We, the believers, were the God-fearing people who ran the classes and got the people to come and hear the truths that he presented from those and probably other sources.
That he was the one presenting the material did not negate the truth in some of the material that helped some get born again and others SIT for the first time. Personally, I was saved and had spoken in tongues before ever hearing of him so to say 100,000 got born again is ludicrious. Most people I took PFAL with grew up going to church and were already saved.
But, you're not the first to come here with that opinion, initially.
Welcome to greasespot cafe, Lone Wolf.
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Ham
Just wonder. Where in the world do you think loy LEARNED his despicible behavior? He didn't just make it up as he went along.
Not just loy either. The group was/is corrupt from top down. Who was at the top?
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Oakspear
Consider how much that we learned and believed while in TWI that we accepted just because Wierwille said so. We took his word for many things because he had convinced us that he was trustworthy. If we had known from the outset that he was a lying, abusive plagiarist, I doubt that many, if any of us would have given TWI a second look. It is in hindsight, after having integrated TWI teaching into our personal belief system, that many of us minimize Wierwille's character and put his teachings on a pedestal.
Some are probably thinking that they didn't blindly accept TWI solely on Wierwille's word; did you verify the definitions of Greek and Hebrew words that Wierwille gave us? Did you verify the accuracy of all the little "orientalisms" and customs, like the 'old piece of research' that claimed that boys were bar-mitzvahed at 12 when they were considered illegitimate? Did you ever that text in the 'original' language where "God" was the first word in Genesis? If not, then I doubt that you did anything but believe things because Wierwille said so.
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