This kind of reminds me of the venomous letter I got from my ex for Christmas. They throw a "sucker punch" and then run.
They refuse to have any sort of conversation, discussion or debate. They HAVE to get the last word in and if they don't hear your question or comment then it didn't happen. That's why they refuse to allow anything other than "bless" conversations.
Yeah, questions have always been a sorepoint with the management at WayWorld.
Remember in PFAL we were instructed right from the start to "hold all your questions until the end of the class" (at which point you've probably forgotten them, and with all the frenzy of "speaking in tongues" and the related activity you wouldn't get a chance to ask them anyway).
Open and honest debate is always anathema to establishing a superstitious mode of thought.
Remember in PFAL we were instructed right from the start to "hold all your questions until the end of the class"
Exactly. No one was willing (allowed) to deal with questions on a personal level. All answers had to come from *upstairs*. And hey -- if this class didn't answer all your questions, we've got a bunch more for you to sign up for. Meebe one of them will give you answers. -->
You know, I could see the reasons why twi didn't want hundreds of questions before or during the pfal class. They did say that our questions would be answered. And, those early questions were answered in session 12.....at least, most of them.
The early 70s weren't like THIS!!! Even in the 80s, the infesting legalism wasn't anywhere near like it is today in twi!! Innies ratting out other innies......waygb monitoring this website......"shutting down the openness" of jb's website.......amazing!!!
Asking questions implies an interaction of thought. The reason why questions were not allowed to be asked during pfal was NOT because "most of them would be answered in the class"...but rather to impose a form of indoctrination that was subjective in nature. Information came IN...your job was not to question it, ask for clarification,or to express disagreement. The information was not open to debate...your job was to sit there like a sponge and soak it up.
Censorship and control is always necessary in a closed environment like twi. Free thought and questions are frowned upon.
A lot of folks don't like the word "brainwashed"...call it what you want, it was a deliberate attempt to control people's thoughts and behavior through a calculated method. Power for abundant living was an indoctrination tool that brought people into the "fold"...which meant they would now give twi money and recruit more suckers who would give twi money. When asked why "Christians should be proposterous" was always the very first "assignment" given to the new student, the standard reply was, "So they can begin to operate the principles of giving and receiving"... :D--> :D--> :D-->
Wierwille was a hell of a grifter...he was the PT Barnum of Christianity...had the cash cow engine "hittin' on all 8"...ALL of his teachings supported the notion of giving twi your money...and the glue that held it all together...was our undying dedication and willingness to accept everything the old cornfield preacher said WITHOUT QUESTION.
Some folks may think that I am a cynic and that I'm bitter...well, I'm neither. I've been out for 18 years and it's a long way back in my past now...I've healed...I've healed to the point that today I laugh at myself for being so stupid...sometimes it gets comical when you really think about it. I also laugh and poke fun at those who were responsible...and in some cases, still are. I survived the experience and I'm here to let people know...people who are just getting out...it takes some time...but go ahead and crack a smile...cause things are gonna be just fine. ;)-->
...And for those of you who are still innies, and lurking on this thread...go ahead, I doubledog dare you...start asking yourself some honest questions...it's not the debbil whispering in your ear...it's your own God given common sense that is tugging at your heart.
Of course God wants us to have faith...but in Him...not in other people and certainly not in some cult.
"A firestorm of questions".. well.. what is that, in TWI speak, anyway? They have a different name for it.. "fiery darts of da wicked". Ooooh, ooooh, don't let one get stuck in yeh... you'll end up puzzessed or worse.
It seems to me, anything true, good, or worthwhile will stand up under the heat of questions. But not for TWI. Doctrinally, maybe SOME of it would stand up- but the vast majority of their "new light" along with almost all of the practical details wouldn't survive very long.
It's pathetic when you have to defend error with threat of possession.
All I can say is, go ahead TWI. Defend your ignorance to the death. It's only your life, you know.
Just another thought.. what are they afraid of? Why this FEAR of "da fiery darts of da adversary?"
Seems to me that TRUTH will not burn. Truth will easily stand up to any kind of scrutiny. If they HAVE the truth, why be afraid? Label people who ask questions as "trouble makers"? "Mah peoples, don't listen to them...". Perhaps they are not as sure as they would have us believe.
Mr.Hammeroni...I think you hit the nail on the head...If it's true, then why hide behind closed doors for fear of the GSers?...
C'mon Rosie...if you got the truth, the world needs it! why not go into the public forum of discussion and present your truth for all to hear? Go, stand and speak...isn't that what the bible says? It doesn't say to stay, sit and be quiet...Didn't Paul go up on Mars hill and take on all comers? Didn't Jesus go into the public places to teach and set an example? Didn't Jesus confront the religios leaders of his time with truth? When love is the motivation, open dialogue and honest questions are encouraged...when fear is the motivation, censorship, control and supression of honest questions are the norm.
There's a difference between allowing a teacher to present his point of view without interruption...and a teacher who refuses to allow questions or any dissenting views. The bible encourages people to "consider these things to see if they are so". If a free exchange of ideas and concerns is not permitted, then you are a sorry foot excuse for a "Christian ministry".
When my wife asked question after question about the debit issue to my innie family memeber, all he could say was "well that is what we believe, that is what we think is best for our lives" over and over.
Well, that sure sounds like a well thought out and informed theological stance. And he is no green believer.
Alot of folks don't like the word "brainwashed"...call it what you want, it was a deliberate attempt to control people's thoughts and behavior through a calculated method. Power for abundant living was an indoctrination tool that brought people into the "fold"...
Yeah, UncleHairy.......no matter what one calls it, the indoctrination into waybrain was calculated!
Finally, by 1995......I started my silent rebellion with twi. With determination, I started questioning lcm's corps teachings and his motives! I questioned the arrogance, the intimidation, the sarcasm, and the hypocrisy of the board of trustees and region coordinators. I began to reclaim my individuality and stood against further indoctrination. By initiating more correspondence with family and old friends, the "scales of waybrain" were falling from my eyes.
Questioning twi......helped me to regain MY thought-life. Then, as I continued to be empowered with confidence and individuality.....MY actions were out-of-step with twi's induced-indoctrination. Some of these actions were baby steps, but they were MY baby steps! And, with my actions came MY identity and character....and the day I exited twi, I slammed the door shut on twi's indoctrination process and PROUDLY WALKED AWAY!!!
Questions are a powerful motivator! Questions can UNLOCK the doors to escape further indoctrination.
DECIDE to question......and expect answers to your satisfaction. Who knows where these questions will lead??? For me.......questions led me back to a liberating life!!!
When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I ask questions till I'm satisfied. It's not only allowed, it's expected.
Is not my spiritual life much more important than my physical life? Then why can't I ask questions? Why can't I get assurances that my spiritual doctors aren't hiding things from me? That they really do have my best interest at heart? -->
DECIDE to question......and expect answers to your satisfaction. Who knows where these questions will lead??? For me.......questions led me back to a liberating life!!!
exactly!
My baby steps started after questioning as well. Although, unlike most here I didn't start with some of the later sessions of the class. I went right to the "integrity of the Word", which is a funny statement that sparks a question with twi's answer already embedded in it. "What is the integrity of (God's) Word?" Without asking more uncomfortable questions you've got your answer.
The only thing that stopped me at the time was SIT. Once I began to question SIT, everything became suspect.
The next key in my getting back to a liberating life was to get used to not having the answers. Just because you ask questions doesn't mean there will be answers. Not settling on answers has been an important step for me.
The next key in my getting back to a liberating life was to get used to not having the answers. Just because you ask questions doesn't mean there will be answers. Not settling on answers has been an important step for me.
And, at times.....when I know that I don't have the answers I find it liberating to shelve those questions for future reference. As long as I decide......my life stays right on track!!!
skyrider...your post was refreshing to my soul! Beginning to think again for yourself is a powerful thing...
Excathedra...yeah, the teaching of the "downfall" was involved with a step by step progression...the bottom line was that they disobeyed God. Twi twists this section of Genesis to get people to understand that questioning your spiritual leader is wrong...yet that's not what it says at all...According to the bible, we are responsible to select our spiritual leaders with much consideration...question them?...you bet!
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Belle
This kind of reminds me of the venomous letter I got from my ex for Christmas. They throw a "sucker punch" and then run.
They refuse to have any sort of conversation, discussion or debate. They HAVE to get the last word in and if they don't hear your question or comment then it didn't happen. That's why they refuse to allow anything other than "bless" conversations.
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George Aar
Yeah, questions have always been a sorepoint with the management at WayWorld.
Remember in PFAL we were instructed right from the start to "hold all your questions until the end of the class" (at which point you've probably forgotten them, and with all the frenzy of "speaking in tongues" and the related activity you wouldn't get a chance to ask them anyway).
Open and honest debate is always anathema to establishing a superstitious mode of thought.
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dmiller
Exactly. No one was willing (allowed) to deal with questions on a personal level. All answers had to come from *upstairs*. And hey -- if this class didn't answer all your questions, we've got a bunch more for you to sign up for. Meebe one of them will give you answers.
-->
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skyrider
You know, I could see the reasons why twi didn't want hundreds of questions before or during the pfal class. They did say that our questions would be answered. And, those early questions were answered in session 12.....at least, most of them.
The early 70s weren't like THIS!!! Even in the 80s, the infesting legalism wasn't anywhere near like it is today in twi!! Innies ratting out other innies......waygb monitoring this website......"shutting down the openness" of jb's website.......amazing!!!
The stayed mind is the CONTROLLED MIND.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Asking questions implies an interaction of thought. The reason why questions were not allowed to be asked during pfal was NOT because "most of them would be answered in the class"...but rather to impose a form of indoctrination that was subjective in nature. Information came IN...your job was not to question it, ask for clarification,or to express disagreement. The information was not open to debate...your job was to sit there like a sponge and soak it up.
Censorship and control is always necessary in a closed environment like twi. Free thought and questions are frowned upon.
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skyrider
UncleHairy,......exactly!!
And, when I look at it from THAT point of view.....
The renewed and indoctrinated mind is the KEY to twi's money and assumed power.
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GrouchoMarxJr
A lot of folks don't like the word "brainwashed"...call it what you want, it was a deliberate attempt to control people's thoughts and behavior through a calculated method. Power for abundant living was an indoctrination tool that brought people into the "fold"...which meant they would now give twi money and recruit more suckers who would give twi money. When asked why "Christians should be proposterous" was always the very first "assignment" given to the new student, the standard reply was, "So they can begin to operate the principles of giving and receiving"...
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Wierwille was a hell of a grifter...he was the PT Barnum of Christianity...had the cash cow engine "hittin' on all 8"...ALL of his teachings supported the notion of giving twi your money...and the glue that held it all together...was our undying dedication and willingness to accept everything the old cornfield preacher said WITHOUT QUESTION.
Some folks may think that I am a cynic and that I'm bitter...well, I'm neither. I've been out for 18 years and it's a long way back in my past now...I've healed...I've healed to the point that today I laugh at myself for being so stupid...sometimes it gets comical when you really think about it. I also laugh and poke fun at those who were responsible...and in some cases, still are. I survived the experience and I'm here to let people know...people who are just getting out...it takes some time...but go ahead and crack a smile...cause things are gonna be just fine.
;)-->
...And for those of you who are still innies, and lurking on this thread...go ahead, I doubledog dare you...start asking yourself some honest questions...it's not the debbil whispering in your ear...it's your own God given common sense that is tugging at your heart.
Of course God wants us to have faith...but in Him...not in other people and certainly not in some cult.
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Ham
"A firestorm of questions".. well.. what is that, in TWI speak, anyway? They have a different name for it.. "fiery darts of da wicked". Ooooh, ooooh, don't let one get stuck in yeh... you'll end up puzzessed or worse.
It seems to me, anything true, good, or worthwhile will stand up under the heat of questions. But not for TWI. Doctrinally, maybe SOME of it would stand up- but the vast majority of their "new light" along with almost all of the practical details wouldn't survive very long.
It's pathetic when you have to defend error with threat of possession.
All I can say is, go ahead TWI. Defend your ignorance to the death. It's only your life, you know.
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Ham
Just another thought.. what are they afraid of? Why this FEAR of "da fiery darts of da adversary?"
Seems to me that TRUTH will not burn. Truth will easily stand up to any kind of scrutiny. If they HAVE the truth, why be afraid? Label people who ask questions as "trouble makers"? "Mah peoples, don't listen to them...". Perhaps they are not as sure as they would have us believe.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mr.Hammeroni...I think you hit the nail on the head...If it's true, then why hide behind closed doors for fear of the GSers?...
C'mon Rosie...if you got the truth, the world needs it! why not go into the public forum of discussion and present your truth for all to hear? Go, stand and speak...isn't that what the bible says? It doesn't say to stay, sit and be quiet...Didn't Paul go up on Mars hill and take on all comers? Didn't Jesus go into the public places to teach and set an example? Didn't Jesus confront the religios leaders of his time with truth? When love is the motivation, open dialogue and honest questions are encouraged...when fear is the motivation, censorship, control and supression of honest questions are the norm.
There's a difference between allowing a teacher to present his point of view without interruption...and a teacher who refuses to allow questions or any dissenting views. The bible encourages people to "consider these things to see if they are so". If a free exchange of ideas and concerns is not permitted, then you are a sorry foot excuse for a "Christian ministry".
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lindyhopper
When my wife asked question after question about the debit issue to my innie family memeber, all he could say was "well that is what we believe, that is what we think is best for our lives" over and over.
Well, that sure sounds like a well thought out and informed theological stance. And he is no green believer.
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skyrider
Yeah, UncleHairy.......no matter what one calls it, the indoctrination into waybrain was calculated!
Finally, by 1995......I started my silent rebellion with twi. With determination, I started questioning lcm's corps teachings and his motives! I questioned the arrogance, the intimidation, the sarcasm, and the hypocrisy of the board of trustees and region coordinators. I began to reclaim my individuality and stood against further indoctrination. By initiating more correspondence with family and old friends, the "scales of waybrain" were falling from my eyes.
Questioning twi......helped me to regain MY thought-life. Then, as I continued to be empowered with confidence and individuality.....MY actions were out-of-step with twi's induced-indoctrination. Some of these actions were baby steps, but they were MY baby steps! And, with my actions came MY identity and character....and the day I exited twi, I slammed the door shut on twi's indoctrination process and PROUDLY WALKED AWAY!!!
Questions are a powerful motivator! Questions can UNLOCK the doors to escape further indoctrination.
DECIDE to question......and expect answers to your satisfaction. Who knows where these questions will lead??? For me.......questions led me back to a liberating life!!!
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Belle
When I go to the doctor or the dentist, I ask questions till I'm satisfied. It's not only allowed, it's expected.
Is not my spiritual life much more important than my physical life? Then why can't I ask questions? Why can't I get assurances that my spiritual doctors aren't hiding things from me? That they really do have my best interest at heart?
-->
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lindyhopper
exactly!
My baby steps started after questioning as well. Although, unlike most here I didn't start with some of the later sessions of the class. I went right to the "integrity of the Word", which is a funny statement that sparks a question with twi's answer already embedded in it. "What is the integrity of (God's) Word?" Without asking more uncomfortable questions you've got your answer.
The only thing that stopped me at the time was SIT. Once I began to question SIT, everything became suspect.
The next key in my getting back to a liberating life was to get used to not having the answers. Just because you ask questions doesn't mean there will be answers. Not settling on answers has been an important step for me.
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Oakspear
"The Truth Needs No Defense" - remember that one? It was used regularly to shut off questions and debate.
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skyrider
And, at times.....when I know that I don't have the answers I find it liberating to shelve those questions for future reference. As long as I decide......my life stays right on track!!!
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frank123lol
They did not like it when you told them thier ansers made no sense
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excathedra
that's a nice quote. i believe it too
wasn't the downfall of eve or adam questioning and then considering or some such crap
people who will not answer questions are usually stupid or arrogant or both
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GrouchoMarxJr
skyrider...your post was refreshing to my soul! Beginning to think again for yourself is a powerful thing...
Excathedra...yeah, the teaching of the "downfall" was involved with a step by step progression...the bottom line was that they disobeyed God. Twi twists this section of Genesis to get people to understand that questioning your spiritual leader is wrong...yet that's not what it says at all...According to the bible, we are responsible to select our spiritual leaders with much consideration...question them?...you bet!
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Radar OReilly
OH FOR PETE'S SAKE Exxie and UH.....
Didn't you learn ANYTHING, in PFAL????
The BOTTOM LINE, in the fall was THE INTEGRITY OF THE WORD.
Don't you remember? Eve added a word, subtracted a word, changed a word.....yadda yadda yadda
-->
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vickles
Integrity of the Word?
It was playing with herself that caused the fall...didn't ya know?
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Tom Strange
what!!! I thought you guys said it was lebanese secks with a snayak...
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Belle
Tom, the sin is subject to change at the whim of the current prez.
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