I feel like your posts echoes much of my sentiment, especially the part about "shame" which I will address in a moment.
I was never in the corps. I did graduate from Fellowlaborers, though, which was another program that promised to deliver a specific product in exchange for commitment.
Fellowlaborers was a two year, in rez., communal living program located within a 1/2 hr. drive from limb HQ.
The program, as it was presented to me, was supposed to be an in-depth study of The Word(the two years I signed up for were supposed to be a study of The Book Of Acts)
There were about 50 of us living 2 to a bedroom/ 6 to a townhouse. We started our days at 5:30 (unless you happened to be on a prep. detail such as breakfast, which we ate as "house" units. Then it started earlier.) We worked 9-5 secular jobs and then met as a branch at limb HQ where we ate at "house" tables and then worked at limb every evening. After that, we met back at the "houses" for nite fellowship and house duties such as dishes and cleaning. Before you knew it, midnight had arrived and it was "lights out" and there was to be no talking, even with your roommate.
It surely didn't leave any time to study the Word. What little time you did have, was consumed with taking care of personal needs.We couldn't date outside the group, socialize outside the group or even venture very far away from the complex other than for our secular jobs, which , of course, everyone knew were meant to be an avenue to witness.
What was presented to me was that , at the end of the two years, you would take all this in depth knowledge back to your hometown.
Most of us had already burned all the bridges that led to a support system by estranging our "natural" friends and family.
Some of us went into the program as representatives of their areas. People who could not go WOW or Corps or Fellowlaborer for various reasons looked to us for representation much like the first family member to make it to college.
Here's where the shame comes in.
How could you go home(early) and tell them you had let them down or that perhaps there was something not right with this ministry you had all immersed yourselves in? After all, you had no proof, only suspicions.
There were people tossed out in the middle of the night for infractions and told to get out of the state before daybreak.
How much shame do you think they must have felt as they traveled to and arrived back home?(100's/ some 1,000's of miles away)
Just the thought of being humiliated in a like manner was a pretty strong motivator to tow the line and conform as a method of survival.
There are lots of ways to usurp a person's free will that have little to nothing to do with placing a gun to their head.
Now, as to being "conned": I don't recall anyone saying they thought the con was committed by Jesus Christ.
The "con" was committed by an organization. In order to accept that, you first have to acknowledge that a "con" was, in fact" committed.
edited to reflect that I was responding to a post by Eyesopen, not Listener as I originally thought.
Here's where the shame comes in. How could you go home(early) and tell them you had let them down or that perhaps there was something not right with this ministry you had all immersed yourselves in? After all, you had no proof, only suspicions.
There were people tossed out in the middle of the night for infractions and told to get out of the state before daybreak.
How much shame do you think they must have felt as they traveled to and arrived back home?(100's/ some 1,000's of miles away)
Just the thought of being humiliated in a like manner was a pretty strong motivator to tow the line and conform as a method of survival.
There are lots of ways to usurp a person's free will that have little to nothing to do with placing a gun to their head.
I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will.
There was no usurpation of free will in the Corps or WOW or fellowlaborer. You signed on the dotted line, you accept the program for what it is, you strive to make it, or you couldn't make it and had to get out.
The way I see it, part of the commitment one makes to these programs is to "count the cost" and, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. In other words, you assume the risk if it doesn't work out. All of this should have been thought through BEFORE entering, so one is prepared if it doesn't work out. I know that sounds like pie in the sky, but the buck stops with you.
So I opine, if one fails, be a man or woman about it, and accept it. It is hard at first, but the buck stops here, with you. Quit blaming others. In the final analysis it didn't work out, you failed, or voluntarily left if it wasn't your cup of tea; and if you see that and learn from the experience and keep faithful, you reaped knowledge and wisdom and were a stronger person because of it.
"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" Nietzsche
I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will.
There was no usurpation of free will in the Corps or WOW or fellowlaborer. You signed on the dotted line, you accept the program for what it is, you strive to make it, or you couldn't make it and had to get out.
The way I see it, part of the commitment one makes to these programs is to "count the cost" and, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. In other words, you assume the risk if it doesn't work out. All of this needs to be thought through BEFORE entering, so you know where you stand.
So I opine, if one fails, be a man or woman about it, and accept it. It is hard at first, but the buck stops here, with you. Quit blaming others. In the final analysis it didn't work out, you failed, and if you continue faithful you will reap wisdom and be a better person because of it.
If people were so mistreated why did they keep on coming back for more?
Had to be something good there.
"
Oldies
While I see your point about accepting what one agreed to, the point that is being lost is that sometimes these programs were not accurately represented in the recruitment process. It really doesn't matter how thoroughly one considered the commitment before entering, if the information was flawed to start with, one really had no idea how abherent the program would become in comparision to its promotion and promises. I think the generally accepted term for this kind of activity is "false advertising".
A couple more quick points:
Not everyone who left did so because they failed. Some were cast aside in a moments notice and no reason was ever given nor were we allowed to ask the reason why. There was one particularly cruel incident in which the ENTIRE PROGRAM was collectively dismissed at 2 or 3 in the morning, no specific reason given. At 5:30 the next morning we were told we were "allowed" to continue but only if we did exactly as we were told.
I was not one of the ones who were thrown out nor did I quit.
As I stated in my post, I graduated.
Point #2:
"Why did we keep coming back?"
We didn't keep coming back------ we LIVED there, in a commune, isolated from general society.No phones, no TV.
Our only connection to normal people was when we went to our secular jobs which we were to use as a means to witness so we could turn their names over to the local branches. If one had a job that was not conducive to that, they had to find another job. Pretty hard to strike up a conversation that doesn't somehow allude to a lifestyle you live 24/7--365 and then direct it to something unrelated. Our freewill was most certainly usurped.
Was there anything good there?
Sure. I learned I can tolerate a whole lot more horse cr@p than I had ever previously imagined.
That, and I learned how to sprout mung beans and make my own mayonaise.
I'll bet those cats in Acts never knew how to do either. Of course I can't really be certain because we never got around to that in-depth study of Acts that was promised.
I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will.
"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" Nietzsche
Ok Oldies, I think you are right perhaps "usurp" might be too strong a word, maybe "infringe" is more approprate.
usurp
- seize something without right: to use something without the right to do so
usurp (v)
seize, appropriate, take, take over, assume, commandeer, grab, arrogate
OR
infringe
- disobey or disregard something: to fail to obey a law or regulation or observe the terms of an agreement
- encroach on somebody's rights or property: to take over land, rights, privileges, or activities that belong to somebody else, especially in a minor or gradual way
infringe (v)
encroach on, intrude on, interfere with, impinge on, trespass, invade, overstep, disobey, disregard, breach, break, violate, contravene, transgress,...
I'm liking the word "infringe" because I think that TWI was more about disregarding our free will than commandeering it. They encroached upon our lives. They used our love and caring against us. They turned our love for our fellow Christians into a vicous hook and our care for humanity into a sin that should be eradicated. Am I blaming them for something? You are darn right I am. I admit I fell for the fake "I love God" spiel that they vomitted like Linda Bl@ir. But I fell for it because I actually thought that what they were selling was something that they actually had. But they didn't. False advertisers is a nice way to put it.
I am glad that your experience with TWI was not frought with any negetives. And I remember good times too. But those good times happened because of true Christians that really did love God and really did have the goods. Not because of the organization or the false ministers that led it.
With TWI I think the more appropriate quote would be "You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar." Everyone's Momma.
Nietzsche was a great man but not everything makes you stronger.
Is "Free Will" even a biblical concept? what are its boundries?
A preliminary word search reveals that the two words, 'free' and 'will' are used in conjunction mostly in the Old Testament and are used in terms of 'freewill offerings'. The main uses seem to be in the books of the law which describe the difference between 'freewill offerings' and those used to pay a vow. Lev. 23:23- "Either a bullock or a lamb that hath anything superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted." The other uses seem to be along the same line. I don't see the two words used in conjunction in Genesis, in relation to the creation of Adam and Eve; nor in the New Testament, in the Church epistles; but this is a very preliminary word search that I need to put on hold for the time being. My daughter wants to use the computer. Good luck.
I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will.
There was no usurpation of free will in the Corps or WOW or fellowlaborer. You signed on the dotted line, you accept the program for what it is, you strive to make it, or you couldn't make it and had to get out.
The way I see it, part of the commitment one makes to these programs is to "count the cost" and, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. In other words, you assume the risk if it doesn't work out. All of this should have been thought through BEFORE entering, so one is prepared if it doesn't work out. I know that sounds like pie in the sky, but the buck stops with you.
So I opine, if one fails, be a man or woman about it, and accept it. It is hard at first, but the buck stops here, with you. Quit blaming others. In the final analysis it didn't work out, you failed, or voluntarily left if it wasn't your cup of tea; and if you see that and learn from the experience and keep faithful, you reaped knowledge and wisdom and were a stronger person because of it.
"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" Nietzsche
I agree - there was never a usurpation of free will. There was often a manipulation of free will, though. TWI would use any means possible to pressure you, coerce you, shame you, trick you into thinking it was God's will for you to go WOW or Corps…Yeah – and people should count the cost – which may include the cost of leaving your spouse or family behind if they don't want to "do God's will."
And speaking of commitments – it's a shame that many couples sacrificed their marriage [breaking a scared commitment to God – a covenant ordained by God way back in Genesis] being deceived by TWI into thinking a commitment to an organization had higher priority than their marriage...But you're right – it's my fault for letting TWI suck away my time, energy, finances, intelligence, creativity, and even the love for wife and family. I failed to use my brain. I should have checked out things for myself – instead of listening to the lies for the Corps program. Like when they told me the Indiana Campus was an accredited college – and finding out later when I went to a professional resume company – that it wasn't…Guess I should have thought things through better…er…uhm…even just applying a little bit of thought would have helped. But then again…they probably wouldn't have considered me Corps material with that kind of attitude.
You may be closer to the truth calling for people to think things through – than ol' Nietzsche. A smart person would have enough sense not to put himself in a situation that could jeopardize life, limb and fortune. As we find in Proverbs a wise man has great power and increases his strength – not by throwing caution to the wind – but by applying his mind!
How about Moment@s? Would that qualify as a usurption?
I don't know what our class was called, but it pretty much fit the description of Moment@s
We were subjected to a weekend of "reshaping" that took place in a LOCKED building.
A locked-down building strikes me as more than infringement.
We were shouted down and belittled at the very mention of the phrase "I think".
"YOU DON"T THINK! YOU KNOW AND OBEY!"
I remember that phrase quite well because it was directed to me, personally, more than once that weekend.
Our choices and actions were commandeered that weekend. If that's infringement, it is an extreme form.
And no, the agreement we made before going into the program did not make any mention of such "instruction".
As I stated earlier, we were ORDERED to report to limb HQ in the middle of the night, on one occasion, and when we got there had to sit in complete silence in the dark only to then be told the program was being scrapped. Then it was reinstated only hours later but only if we fell in step without question. Again, if this is infringement, it certainly is an extreme form.
Still, I did complete the program and graduate.
I have a really swell green and white nametag to show for it.
It's got a super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it.--------Yee Haw!!
I can be responsible for deciding to buy a carton of milk. The store's responsible to sell me a carton that's fresh and drinkable.
If it's sour, what would you do? Take it back, get a refund? Another carton of milk? Give the store a piece (small or large) of your mind for selling spoiled milk?
There's two sides to the responsibility coin, I think if we insist one only one we can't get a true fix on what it means to have free will and to act on that will. It isn't always going to be ALL my fault nor always ALL someone else's. It will depend onthe circumstances.
IMO it's wrong to say that because we have free will and can decide what we want to do that we are always fully responsible for the outcome of our choices. We're not. It ain't rocket science, philosophy or theology. If the dates on the carton's good and the milk's bad, who's to blame?
I think the expiration date on twi milk might be about twenty years or so off the mark..
I really WISH they'd give a refund..
They are still selling the same milk, claim it is fresh as today's Wall Street Journal..
You're right socks, about all that is left is give the store a piece of our mind..
Well, not all the milk is sour. I continue to believe that what I was taught of the Word works in my life. I think the 'store' DID sell me milk that was fresh. As I have said many times before; everything I said I wanted when I signed the green card, I received in PFAL. Men may have let me down, and they may have to answer for that; but God never has, and I continue to place my trust in Him.
Well, not all the milk is sour. I continue to believe that what I was taught of the Word works in my life. Men may have let me down, but God never has; and I continue to place my trust in Him.
Jean, ultimately all humans will fall short and disappoint so it is very smart to place your trust in God. It is true that some good things came out of my involvement with TWI as well. But as I said and I believe you have as well, those good things can be attributed to individuals and not the ministry as a whole (ultimately God takes the credit but I think you understand what I am saying).
The milk is a great analogy to illustrate this phenomena. As it isn't all sour. And not everyone that shops at the same store will come away with sour milk. A different day of the week or a different supervisor or any number of variables will change the outcome. But the bottom line remains the same. The store is responsible to provide what it advertises. If the store feels that the product is faulty then they talk to the dairy and so on. But the store still bears a certain amount of responsibility.
In similar fashion the ministry advertised several products. They delivered on a few of them. But it seemed that the deeper or more involved you became the less likely you were to recieve that for which you paid.
Waysider, you have got some grandes huevos my friend! If someone were to yell in my face like that back in the day I probably would have obviously ignored them, hence making them angrier. Today I would just walk away. But I am a different person today. But dude! You stuck it out and got that AWSOME nametag! Mine didn't have the super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it. Hmmmph....I knew I joined the wrong program! <_<
"Of course you may be too much a fool to go wrong-too dull even to know you are being assaulted by the powers of darkness. I take it, no fool ever made a bargain for his soul with the devil: the fool is too much a fool, or the devil is too much of a devil--I don't know which. Or you may be such a thunderingly exalted creature as to be altogether deaf and blind to anything but heavenly sights and sounds. Then the earth for you is only a standing place-and whether to be like this is your loss or your gain I won't pretend to say. But most of us are neither one nor the other."
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waysider
Eyesopen
I feel like your posts echoes much of my sentiment, especially the part about "shame" which I will address in a moment.
I was never in the corps. I did graduate from Fellowlaborers, though, which was another program that promised to deliver a specific product in exchange for commitment.
Fellowlaborers was a two year, in rez., communal living program located within a 1/2 hr. drive from limb HQ.
The program, as it was presented to me, was supposed to be an in-depth study of The Word(the two years I signed up for were supposed to be a study of The Book Of Acts)
There were about 50 of us living 2 to a bedroom/ 6 to a townhouse. We started our days at 5:30 (unless you happened to be on a prep. detail such as breakfast, which we ate as "house" units. Then it started earlier.) We worked 9-5 secular jobs and then met as a branch at limb HQ where we ate at "house" tables and then worked at limb every evening. After that, we met back at the "houses" for nite fellowship and house duties such as dishes and cleaning. Before you knew it, midnight had arrived and it was "lights out" and there was to be no talking, even with your roommate.
It surely didn't leave any time to study the Word. What little time you did have, was consumed with taking care of personal needs.We couldn't date outside the group, socialize outside the group or even venture very far away from the complex other than for our secular jobs, which , of course, everyone knew were meant to be an avenue to witness.
What was presented to me was that , at the end of the two years, you would take all this in depth knowledge back to your hometown.
Most of us had already burned all the bridges that led to a support system by estranging our "natural" friends and family.
Some of us went into the program as representatives of their areas. People who could not go WOW or Corps or Fellowlaborer for various reasons looked to us for representation much like the first family member to make it to college.
Here's where the shame comes in.
How could you go home(early) and tell them you had let them down or that perhaps there was something not right with this ministry you had all immersed yourselves in? After all, you had no proof, only suspicions.
There were people tossed out in the middle of the night for infractions and told to get out of the state before daybreak.
How much shame do you think they must have felt as they traveled to and arrived back home?(100's/ some 1,000's of miles away)
Just the thought of being humiliated in a like manner was a pretty strong motivator to tow the line and conform as a method of survival.
There are lots of ways to usurp a person's free will that have little to nothing to do with placing a gun to their head.
Now, as to being "conned": I don't recall anyone saying they thought the con was committed by Jesus Christ.
The "con" was committed by an organization. In order to accept that, you first have to acknowledge that a "con" was, in fact" committed.
edited to reflect that I was responding to a post by Eyesopen, not Listener as I originally thought.
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Listener
Yeah, it's easy to confuse Eyes and me. She's pretty and I'm not!
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oldiesman
I get what you're saying about shame, but not about usurping someone's free will.
There was no usurpation of free will in the Corps or WOW or fellowlaborer. You signed on the dotted line, you accept the program for what it is, you strive to make it, or you couldn't make it and had to get out.
The way I see it, part of the commitment one makes to these programs is to "count the cost" and, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. In other words, you assume the risk if it doesn't work out. All of this should have been thought through BEFORE entering, so one is prepared if it doesn't work out. I know that sounds like pie in the sky, but the buck stops with you.
So I opine, if one fails, be a man or woman about it, and accept it. It is hard at first, but the buck stops here, with you. Quit blaming others. In the final analysis it didn't work out, you failed, or voluntarily left if it wasn't your cup of tea; and if you see that and learn from the experience and keep faithful, you reaped knowledge and wisdom and were a stronger person because of it.
"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" Nietzsche
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waysider
Oldies
While I see your point about accepting what one agreed to, the point that is being lost is that sometimes these programs were not accurately represented in the recruitment process. It really doesn't matter how thoroughly one considered the commitment before entering, if the information was flawed to start with, one really had no idea how abherent the program would become in comparision to its promotion and promises. I think the generally accepted term for this kind of activity is "false advertising".
A couple more quick points:
Not everyone who left did so because they failed. Some were cast aside in a moments notice and no reason was ever given nor were we allowed to ask the reason why. There was one particularly cruel incident in which the ENTIRE PROGRAM was collectively dismissed at 2 or 3 in the morning, no specific reason given. At 5:30 the next morning we were told we were "allowed" to continue but only if we did exactly as we were told.
I was not one of the ones who were thrown out nor did I quit.
As I stated in my post, I graduated.
Point #2:
"Why did we keep coming back?"
We didn't keep coming back------ we LIVED there, in a commune, isolated from general society.No phones, no TV.
Our only connection to normal people was when we went to our secular jobs which we were to use as a means to witness so we could turn their names over to the local branches. If one had a job that was not conducive to that, they had to find another job. Pretty hard to strike up a conversation that doesn't somehow allude to a lifestyle you live 24/7--365 and then direct it to something unrelated. Our freewill was most certainly usurped.
Was there anything good there?
Sure. I learned I can tolerate a whole lot more horse cr@p than I had ever previously imagined.
That, and I learned how to sprout mung beans and make my own mayonaise.
I'll bet those cats in Acts never knew how to do either. Of course I can't really be certain because we never got around to that in-depth study of Acts that was promised.
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Bolshevik
Your right Oldies, we are free to choose.
We can't control our options.
Decisions made to commit to twi are based on a trust, words and actions taken by twi are deceptive, pushy, and threatening.
I think the frustration concerning free will has to do with the fact that we made choices based on bad info.
I'm probably being redundant.
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Eyesopen
Its the lips babe!!
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Eyesopen
Ok Oldies, I think you are right perhaps "usurp" might be too strong a word, maybe "infringe" is more approprate.
usurp
- seize something without right: to use something without the right to do so
usurp (v)
seize, appropriate, take, take over, assume, commandeer, grab, arrogate
OR
infringe
- disobey or disregard something: to fail to obey a law or regulation or observe the terms of an agreement
- encroach on somebody's rights or property: to take over land, rights, privileges, or activities that belong to somebody else, especially in a minor or gradual way
infringe (v)
encroach on, intrude on, interfere with, impinge on, trespass, invade, overstep, disobey, disregard, breach, break, violate, contravene, transgress,...
I'm liking the word "infringe" because I think that TWI was more about disregarding our free will than commandeering it. They encroached upon our lives. They used our love and caring against us. They turned our love for our fellow Christians into a vicous hook and our care for humanity into a sin that should be eradicated. Am I blaming them for something? You are darn right I am. I admit I fell for the fake "I love God" spiel that they vomitted like Linda Bl@ir. But I fell for it because I actually thought that what they were selling was something that they actually had. But they didn't. False advertisers is a nice way to put it.
I am glad that your experience with TWI was not frought with any negetives. And I remember good times too. But those good times happened because of true Christians that really did love God and really did have the goods. Not because of the organization or the false ministers that led it.
With TWI I think the more appropriate quote would be "You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar." Everyone's Momma.
Nietzsche was a great man but not everything makes you stronger.
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Ham
What about "drugged" Oldies?
hmm.
seems to me, drugged and thrown in the back of the mogmobile wasn't exactly done in accordance with the ladies' freedom of will.
Free will was far more than abrogated, or usurped..
Oh. "It didn't happen to ME."
"Nobody took advantage of ME".
"I had some good times.."
This is why I am really starting to hate religion..
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Ham
That was NOT part of the agreement, "signed on the dotted line.."
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Bolshevik
Is "Free Will" even a biblical concept? what are its boundries?
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Jeaniam
A preliminary word search reveals that the two words, 'free' and 'will' are used in conjunction mostly in the Old Testament and are used in terms of 'freewill offerings'. The main uses seem to be in the books of the law which describe the difference between 'freewill offerings' and those used to pay a vow. Lev. 23:23- "Either a bullock or a lamb that hath anything superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted." The other uses seem to be along the same line. I don't see the two words used in conjunction in Genesis, in relation to the creation of Adam and Eve; nor in the New Testament, in the Church epistles; but this is a very preliminary word search that I need to put on hold for the time being. My daughter wants to use the computer. Good luck.
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T-Bone
I agree - there was never a usurpation of free will. There was often a manipulation of free will, though. TWI would use any means possible to pressure you, coerce you, shame you, trick you into thinking it was God's will for you to go WOW or Corps…Yeah – and people should count the cost – which may include the cost of leaving your spouse or family behind if they don't want to "do God's will."
And speaking of commitments – it's a shame that many couples sacrificed their marriage [breaking a scared commitment to God – a covenant ordained by God way back in Genesis] being deceived by TWI into thinking a commitment to an organization had higher priority than their marriage...But you're right – it's my fault for letting TWI suck away my time, energy, finances, intelligence, creativity, and even the love for wife and family. I failed to use my brain. I should have checked out things for myself – instead of listening to the lies for the Corps program. Like when they told me the Indiana Campus was an accredited college – and finding out later when I went to a professional resume company – that it wasn't…Guess I should have thought things through better…er…uhm…even just applying a little bit of thought would have helped. But then again…they probably wouldn't have considered me Corps material with that kind of attitude.
You may be closer to the truth calling for people to think things through – than ol' Nietzsche. A smart person would have enough sense not to put himself in a situation that could jeopardize life, limb and fortune. As we find in Proverbs a wise man has great power and increases his strength – not by throwing caution to the wind – but by applying his mind!
Proverbs 24:3-5 NIV
3 By wisdom a house is built,
and through understanding it is established;
4 through knowledge its rooms are filled
with rare and beautiful treasures.
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength
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Bolshevik
Pavlov's dog
The boy who cried wolf - The townspeople by their freewill choice let the boy be eaten
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waysider
How about Moment@s? Would that qualify as a usurption?
I don't know what our class was called, but it pretty much fit the description of Moment@s
We were subjected to a weekend of "reshaping" that took place in a LOCKED building.
A locked-down building strikes me as more than infringement.
We were shouted down and belittled at the very mention of the phrase "I think".
"YOU DON"T THINK! YOU KNOW AND OBEY!"
I remember that phrase quite well because it was directed to me, personally, more than once that weekend.
Our choices and actions were commandeered that weekend. If that's infringement, it is an extreme form.
And no, the agreement we made before going into the program did not make any mention of such "instruction".
As I stated earlier, we were ORDERED to report to limb HQ in the middle of the night, on one occasion, and when we got there had to sit in complete silence in the dark only to then be told the program was being scrapped. Then it was reinstated only hours later but only if we fell in step without question. Again, if this is infringement, it certainly is an extreme form.
Still, I did complete the program and graduate.
I have a really swell green and white nametag to show for it.
It's got a super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it.--------Yee Haw!!
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socks
"It takes two to tango". Don't it?
I can be responsible for deciding to buy a carton of milk. The store's responsible to sell me a carton that's fresh and drinkable.
If it's sour, what would you do? Take it back, get a refund? Another carton of milk? Give the store a piece (small or large) of your mind for selling spoiled milk?
There's two sides to the responsibility coin, I think if we insist one only one we can't get a true fix on what it means to have free will and to act on that will. It isn't always going to be ALL my fault nor always ALL someone else's. It will depend onthe circumstances.
IMO it's wrong to say that because we have free will and can decide what we want to do that we are always fully responsible for the outcome of our choices. We're not. It ain't rocket science, philosophy or theology. If the dates on the carton's good and the milk's bad, who's to blame?
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Bolshevik
did you check to see if the carton was bulging?
why did you decide to go to that store?
why did you decide to buy milk?
Is this milk going to Glorify God?
Did you bless the milk first?
where you two by two when at the store?
did you check with leadership first? Perhaps God had already provided the milk.
obviously you missed something.
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waysider
This is a bit off topic.( The milk reminded me)
There is an episode of The Little Rascals that takes place in a poverty stricken, depression era orphanage.
The kids accidentally spill the only milk they have. They know the headmaster will punish them if he finds out.
Thus, they decide to mix up some plaster- of- paris and water into the consistancy of milk.
When they sit down at the table, there is nothing to eat except mush and "milk".
One kid leans over and whispers to the next, "Don't drink the milk".
"Why?", says kid #2. "It's spoiled." says the first.
This goes all the way around the table until it reaches the headmaster who scoffs at the notion and takes a big gulp.
He instantly spews the "milk" back out involuntarily.
Don't drink the milk-----------It's spoiled!
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Ham
Hmm. The milk, the milk..
I think the expiration date on twi milk might be about twenty years or so off the mark..
I really WISH they'd give a refund..
They are still selling the same milk, claim it is fresh as today's Wall Street Journal..
You're right socks, about all that is left is give the store a piece of our mind..
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socks
Agreed, Hamm. It's permissible to have a cow if the milk's sour. IMO.
Momentous?
I think that's where that joke got started...."Hey, I think this milk is bad...smell it and tell me what you think..."
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JavaJane
Thank you, Socks!
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Jeaniam
....Oops, double post
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
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Jeaniam
Well, not all the milk is sour. I continue to believe that what I was taught of the Word works in my life. I think the 'store' DID sell me milk that was fresh. As I have said many times before; everything I said I wanted when I signed the green card, I received in PFAL. Men may have let me down, and they may have to answer for that; but God never has, and I continue to place my trust in Him.
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Eyesopen
Jean, ultimately all humans will fall short and disappoint so it is very smart to place your trust in God. It is true that some good things came out of my involvement with TWI as well. But as I said and I believe you have as well, those good things can be attributed to individuals and not the ministry as a whole (ultimately God takes the credit but I think you understand what I am saying).
The milk is a great analogy to illustrate this phenomena. As it isn't all sour. And not everyone that shops at the same store will come away with sour milk. A different day of the week or a different supervisor or any number of variables will change the outcome. But the bottom line remains the same. The store is responsible to provide what it advertises. If the store feels that the product is faulty then they talk to the dairy and so on. But the store still bears a certain amount of responsibility.
In similar fashion the ministry advertised several products. They delivered on a few of them. But it seemed that the deeper or more involved you became the less likely you were to recieve that for which you paid.
Waysider, you have got some grandes huevos my friend! If someone were to yell in my face like that back in the day I probably would have obviously ignored them, hence making them angrier. Today I would just walk away. But I am a different person today. But dude! You stuck it out and got that AWSOME nametag! Mine didn't have the super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it. Hmmmph....I knew I joined the wrong program! <_<
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Bolshevik
"Of course you may be too much a fool to go wrong-too dull even to know you are being assaulted by the powers of darkness. I take it, no fool ever made a bargain for his soul with the devil: the fool is too much a fool, or the devil is too much of a devil--I don't know which. Or you may be such a thunderingly exalted creature as to be altogether deaf and blind to anything but heavenly sights and sounds. Then the earth for you is only a standing place-and whether to be like this is your loss or your gain I won't pretend to say. But most of us are neither one nor the other."
-Joseph Conrad Heart of Darkness
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