False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?

[doojable]

That thought has crossed my mind a few times too.

It would be interesting to see HOW MANY sexual innuendoes are in pfal. "All the women in the kingdom BELONG to the king" is another. "Take off my coat, and then my tie.....pretty soon we'd get down to the BARE facts" is yet another (sort of).

Any more??????????????????

It hit me the other day - I had forgotten it. When vpw taught that section of scripture and he said that "all the women in the kingdom belonged to the King anyway," I remembered how my heart sunk. I don't know how to describe it, but I was 21 - young and naiive and all I could feel was a sort of remorse. I felt devalued somehow. It only lasted a second, but I remembered it. It was as if at that point in time God didn't care about women. Afterall, God's main concern was that Uriah - a man - had been murdered...

I don't want to make this seem like I thought about it a long time. It was gut knee-jerk reaction - but a reaction all the same.

[doojable]

Dooj, I see it as two entirely different types of judgement. Knowing what I now know about VPW, I would never give him entrance into my life, if he were still alive. Were he alive today, he would not be welcome into my home, he would not be allowed near my children, and I would shout warnings from my rooftop to every woman I could, to stay away from him.

That is dealing with the physical world, there here and now.

As for the next life - I simply refuse to play at God. What comes after his death is, IMO, God's judgment, not mine. I won't argue that VPW is born again, heaven bound and all hell can't stop him. But I likewise won't argue the opposite either. I will simply leave that to God.

We have no arguments here Abi. I have no say whatsoever as to what happens to him now. It doesn't matter what he did, what he said, what I feel - all that matters for him is that judgement seat.

I guess that I still feel that vpw and his teachings are connected. The bonds are loosened once a clear view of the man gets the spotlight. There are some of his teachings that lead to a kind of toxic faith - that is what I take exception with.

[ex10]

What if you woke up one morning, and found that everything you believd in, and invested in was wrong..

I'm not trying to load any "new age" thoughts on you either..

:)

Ham, been there done that, after I left the cult. <_< Had to re-evaluate everything.

[wrdsandwrks]

Our friends locally have been lately on a certain "processing" kick that is quite a different "process." It has to do with the visitation of memories; I would call it "brutal visitation." That is, they dare to go fully to their pain, whether it is child abuse, sexual abuse, or whatever. The idea is that we tend to repress memories that make us uncomfortable, and thereby accept the conclusions we reached about it as a child. In other words, in a vulnerable state, we are traumatized, and never revisit the situation once we are a little more grown up. And we then live out our lives in sometimes outrageously disfunctional ways as a result. The "friend" (not a technical term… it just sounds more correct to call them that rather than "subject" or "the one being worked on") is encouraged to really feel what they are feeling. They might be asked, "how did you feel when this was occurring?" "If that feeling could cry out, what would it say?" Believe me, some of these "fellowships" with people taking the time to support one another, not challenge or marginalize the other’s feelings, etc., can be extremely distressing. Distress is not the goal, of course. Healing is. God is "invited" (I know, as if He needs an invitation… and yet how often we "process" without Him!) into that memory. What would God have us know about that situation? Where was God, what was God "feeling" when it occurred to us? That type of thing. Their may be some waiting for the answer. It may not come in that session, or only in small ways. Sometimes it comes very very powerfully, and provides profound resolution. God being sovereign, and obviously beyond us, may say the unexpected.

From a merely psychological point of view, this type of honest revisitation seems potentially profitable to me. It allows the person to examine events and their childhood reactions and possibly lifelong convictions that shaped them and made them who they are today. The value lies in being willing, with our "adult" minds, to reconsider the situation. Example: a person may have been deeply wounded by the fact that their mother worked nights, slept during the day, and neglected them when they were a child.

A good introduction to this kind of ministry is The Life Model: Living with the heart Jesus gave you, by Wilder. He distinguishes "Type 1 trauma" from "Type 2." One is a passive trauma, such as neglect, whereas the other is actual infliction of trauma. Either can be devastating.

But from a spiritual point of view, "allowing" God in the process opens it up to even greater results, and we have seen them. The supporting roles of friends who simply care and who are willing to "go there with you" can be a time-consuming sacrifice, but what are friends for? Care is taken not to "correct" the friend, and pains are taken not to be "the mouthpiece" of God for that person, to analyze, diagnose, or otherwise interfere with their own receiving from God "the answer," or His wisdom. This is done with an authentic belief that God is quite capable of reaching us in the deepest hell. It has the significant benefit of real progress (healing), because if someone hears it from me, they may only "be convinced." But if they themselves hear it from God, well, "that settles it."

Dan,

Sounds similar to some teachings I read from Dale Sides on "Mending Cracks in Your Soul". If I remember correctly, it involves going back to a painful memory and then asking God to show you how He was there when the painful event happened. Deliverance comes by realizing that He was there to help the whole time. It sounded very powerful when I read it, but it was years ago.

I just googled it and found that it's been published as Chapter 13 in Doris Wagner's How to Minister Freedom. Actually the whole book sounds good. There's another chapter on Child Sexual Abuse.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Minister-Freedom...s/dp/0830737359

I'll have to look into the Wilder book you mention.

[Dot Matrix]

W&W

Funny, but Jesus asked me one day as my eyes were closed and I lay in the tub, "Are you ready to go back to your childhood memories?"

I said yes.

And in my mind, like a movie, we held hands and he walked me back into the woods were I was molested by a gang of teen boys.

Nobody ever instructed me to do that, just a vist, while relaxed in a hot tub, by a man I knew as Jesus.

We did confront it all.

The complete healing from all the collateral damge came/comes in stages.

I just found your post interesting

Edited August 7, 2007 by Dot Matrix

[oldiesman]

It is possible to say one thing and do another.

He himself said that it was possible to say anything with your mouth. I'd say that given that TWI was supposed to be a Christian ministry he had to say that Jesus Christ is Lord.

What do you mean twi was "supposed" to be a Christian ministry? It is and always was. No matter how hard you try to cast off VP, twi and the offshoots from the body of Christ, you can't do it. God doesn't forsake his kids.

But his action betray his true beliefs...

In some areas yes, in some no.

How do you justify person drugging and raping women if he truly believes that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and Head of the Body?

I can't justify these things, all I can do is believe the scripture when it says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Victor Paul Wierwille believed that and when he was teaching the word and in fellowship with God, his actions followed accordingly.

Edited August 7, 2007 by oldiesman

[oldiesman]

From where I stand, a true man of God that really and truly believes this teaching does not live his life as if he can do anything as long as he isn't caught.

Obviously it is possible. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe some of us would do the same thing, in Wierwille's shoes. Too much power and authority ruins some people. Goes to their head. Solomon was like that too.

[doojable]

What do you mean twi was "supposed" to be a Christian ministry? It is and always was. No matter how hard you try to cast off VP, twi and the offshoots from the body of Christ, you can't do it. God doesn't forsake his kids.

I was saying that the model that vpw wanted was a Christian ministry - so he had to use that play book.

In some areas yes, in some no.

I'd like you to elaborate further on these things.

I can't justify these things, all I can do is believe the scripture when it says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Victor Paul Wierwille believed that and when he was teaching the word and in fellowship with God, his actions followed accordingly.

That's a lot of conditions to come together at once. I wonder just how often he was in fellowship with God - no matter what he was doing...

Edited August 7, 2007 by doojable

[Ham]

I wonder how many here have read "journeyman" by Erskine Caldwell..

I think the "right reverand" Semon Dye is probably a fairly close comparison to these hucksters..

Here is the review on Amazon, "from the publisher (University of Georgia Press)

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...18485&itm=3

Meet one of Erskine Caldwell's most memorable characters: the philandering , murderous itinerant preacher, Semon Dye. Part allegory, part tall tale, and with a good measure of old frontier humor, Journeyman tells how Dye mysteriously arrives in Rocky Comfort, Georgia, and inside of a week nearly tears the small community apart. As devilish as he is divine, Dye helps Rocky Comfort's citizens to rationalize their vices and weaknesses, and then uses their flaws to his own advantage. Offering no forgiveness for their actions and no justification for his own, Dye confronts the people of Rocky Comfort with their own sins as he gambles, drinks, carouses, and fights along with them. Culminating in a tumultuous, ecstatic revival, Journeyman is filled with insights into human nature and the physical and emotional aspects of religious fervor.

A VERY good friend gave me this book in the late 80's.. I think it planted a few seeds for my "cult recovery".

I remember a lot in this book.. the second main character in the story, at the end of the book.. after the "good" preacher helped himself to his wife, his money, his car..

the best I can remember.. a tear in his eye..

"Well, at least he wasn't boring"..

[skyrider]

The dichotomy in wierwille's life -- what he said in public contrasted with what he DID in private -- continues to be a fascinating study on so many levels. At present, I do think that wierwille was born-again and chose the ministerial route from his childhood experiences of his New Knoxville preacher, Dr. Kunst. Basing my premise on this, perhaps it was more about the wielding of authority that young wierwille perceived and NOT the genuine love and concern for the Scriptures and to help others?

Anyways......a side issue comes to mind: one that has always perplexed me. I'd sat through pfal classes enough to hear the "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai" many a time by wierwille. Then.....when wierwille taught at PFAL '77 he gets to that point in the class where he demonstrates speaking in tongues. And, lo and behold, when wierwille starts speaking in tongues.......AGAIN, it's "lo shanta malakeseto, lo shantai." It just sounded so repetitive. :blink:

And, I swear.......wierwille came to Emporia to teach the corps in 1978/79 and, when he got to "displaying" the greatness of speaking in tongues..........AGAIN, "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai."

Sorry, I just never saw the depth or power of those nine manifestations IN HIS LIFE......beginning with speaking in tongues.

[rascal]

Obviously it is possible. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe some of us would do the same thing, in Wierwille's shoes. Too much power and authority ruins some people. Goes to their head. Solomon was like that too.

I don`t think that is true if one is a genuine christian...

What you say is possibly true of one that just wears the lable.

I think that there is life altering impact and change on the inside when one experiences the new birth...that is why we are able to tell one another by the fruit....it isn`t something that you can fake...or achieve by study and research....

A man of the spirit as described in galatians just doesn`t DO the things vp did period.

Now..I will settle for seeing vp as a man of the flesh that wore a christian lable...I think he thought that his accomplishments were what would make him spiritual...I think that in view of the fruit of his life...he was mistaken.

What you are describing oldies...is works ...those won`t make you spiritual...change you on the inside..

Edited August 7, 2007 by rascal

[Ham]

Honestly.. I would rate the book up there above "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.."

[oldiesman]

Honestly, I don't get the idea that if you are born-again, you can't be a horrible sinner. The new birth doesn't affect our character or personality. I think it's totally possible to accept Jesus as Lord one minute, receive eternal life, and then fall back into old habits, no matter how perverted or dysfunctional.

To say that VPW wasn't a Christian is a stretch in my book. Hey, I think he was a pretty horrible one, but geeze, everything I know from the bible says that we are saved by grace. And I don't believe salvation can be lost by sinning. Sorry for the sidetrack. I don't want to load my high powered doctrine gun here, but geeze, just because someone might've been a pitiful excuse for a minister doesn't mean they were incapable of receiving Christ at one point in life. I've seen some Chrisitans do some pretty hateful and despicably mean things.

It seems pretty pointless to me to argue over whether or not he was saved, unless you wanna have a lengthy doctrinal discussion.

Another topic for another thread, I guess.

Lord, help me. I just agreed with Oldies on something. :blink:

Right on!

[Ham]

"journeyman" by Erskine Caldwell..

Go to Amazon, anywhere.. buy it today..

your cult recovery may depend upon it

Not quite as "dry" as "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse"..

Not quite as "subtle" either.

[ex10]

Gee, Oldies, you're scaring me.

[rascal]

Well that is just the thing oldies...those people who did those awfull things may wear the lable christian.

I a=don`t believe that they were denuine christians. I have seen the real thing since leaving twi...they are not even remotely tempted to drug and rape, commit adultery...

They are changed on the inside...

Wierwille supposedly developed these apetites and lusts while proclaiming being christian...it just doesn`t wash...not if you believe the bible.

[oldiesman]

Gee, Oldies, you're scaring me.

You made my day, ex 10. Love and kisses! You have invigorated me and postage encouragement for the next 10 years. thank you thank you thank you

[ex10]

I am definitely marking this day on my calander. :unsure:

[ex10]

Rascal,

I don't believe that VPW Wierwille "developed these apetites and lusts while proclaiming being christian...".

I think they were there all along.

Seems to me that the question of whether or not VP was actually saved is one that will never be answered definitively. Maybe that was be a cool doctrinal discussion? Whether or not a Chrisitan can live the way VP did, if he/she wants to?

It's pretty obvious that VP didn't live as Christian Minister is expected to. He never should have gone into "the ministry" to start with, yeah, agreed. But we could argue all day long about the other point, and end up getting nowhere. As always, Just MHO.

[skyrider]

The dichotomy in wierwille's life -- what he said in public contrasted with what he DID in private -- continues to be a fascinating study on so many levels. At present, I do think that wierwille was born-again and chose the ministerial route from his childhood experiences of his New Knoxville preacher, Dr. Kunst. Basing my premise on this, perhaps it was more about the wielding of authority that young wierwille perceived and NOT the genuine love and concern for the Scriptures and to help others?

Anyways......a side issue comes to mind: one that has always perplexed me. I'd sat through pfal classes enough to hear the "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai" many a time by wierwille. Then.....when wierwille taught at PFAL '77 he gets to that point in the class where he demonstrates speaking in tongues. And, lo and behold, when wierwille starts speaking in tongues.......AGAIN, it's "lo shanta malakeseto, lo shantai." It just sounded so repetitive. :blink:

And, I swear.......wierwille came to Emporia to teach the corps in 1978/79 and, when he got to "displaying" the greatness of speaking in tongues..........AGAIN, "lo shanta malakaseto, lo shantai."

Sorry, I just never saw the depth or power of those nine manifestations IN HIS LIFE......beginning with speaking in tongues.

ex10.......could it be that vpw went into the ministry work for the wrong reasons [i.e. to wield authority over people]. Just seems like Mrs. Wierwille's book, as well, documents how his many early years of ministry work were frustration and disappointment because he had relatively few followers.

So much of wierwille points to.....authority, control, power.

<_<

[ex10]

Skyrider,

To answer your question, YES! Putting VPW's life in the context of his background and the times, to enter the "Ministry," was a very honorable thing to do with one's life, and carried a certain amount of instant credibility and social prestige. Who knows? Maybe VP thought that the seminary could "save him from himself?" Or, like you said, it was a way to be influencial and authoritarian. He could become the "expert" on something through academic study, without too much personal risk involved.

I had some personal conversations with VP during my tenure in TWI, that lead me to believe that he had some kind of relationship with Jesus Christ. But his own theology which morphed over the years turned into a great, big, giant, rationalization and justification for behavior not becoming a minister of the Gospel.

At the risk of really oversimplifying a complex issue, I think he is a great example of someone who took their "liberty in Christ," to some pretty twisted and perverted ends.

PS an after thought:

The believers in Corinth also were taking their "liberty," to some pretty perverted ends. So their is a biblical precedent in the NT in my mind.

[Raf]

From observation, I would have to say wolf in sheep's clothing. If he were preaching today and I knew about him what I know now, I would have to warn fellow Christians to stay away from him. I would consider him not to be trusted. He used and abused God's people and manipulated God's Word to satisfy his lust for power, his lust for money and his lust for the flesh, all while wearing a suit of the finest wool.

That's from observation.

From the heart, I don't know if he was a heartbreakingly flawed Billy Graham or a twisted, evil P.T. Barnum.

[tonto]

Anyone here seen the movie "The Apostle"? Robert Duvall plays a pentecostal preacher who cheats on his wife and murders a man in a fit of jealousy, yet he also spreads the gospel. I know it's just a movie but everytime I've watched it I think of vp.

Seems to me that the question of whether or not VP was actually saved is one that will never be answered definitively.

I agree, ex10.

Whether or not he was born again, I do believe his desire for respect and power are what initially "opened the trap door" in his heart. After all, the man had legitimate degrees but got his doctorate from a degree mill. And what did he insist we call him? Doctor. I know this is a small thing compared to some of the horrible things he did, but I think it screams what was important to him. And don't think that wasn't what he wanted to be called. I've witnessed him melt someone's face over breath mints...if he didn't want us to call him that, believe me, we would have heard about it.

[wrdsandwrks]

W&W

Funny, but Jesus asked me one day as my eyes were closed and I lay in the tub, "Are you ready to go back to your childhood memories?"

I said yes.

And in my mind, like a movie, we held hands and he walked me back into the woods were I was molested by a gang of teen boys.

Nobody ever instructed me to do that, just a vist, while relaxed in a hot tub, by a man I knew as Jesus.

We did confront it all.

The complete healing from all the collateral damge came/comes in stages.

I just found your post interesting

Wow, that's awesome! Jesus is so amazing!

Can I just wonder out loud if maybe He wants you to develop that kind of ministry of healing for others who've been through similar kinds of things?

[Tom Strange]

Honestly, I don't get the idea that if you are born-again, you can't be a horrible sinner. The new birth doesn't affect our character or personality. I think it's totally possible to accept Jesus as Lord one minute, receive eternal life, and then fall back into old habits, no matter how perverted or dysfunctional.

To say that VPW wasn't a Christian is a stretch in my book. Hey, I think he was a pretty horrible one, but geeze, everything I know from the bible says that we are saved by grace. And I don't believe salvation can be lost by sinning. Sorry for the sidetrack. I don't want to load my high powered doctrine gun here, but geeze, just because someone might've been a pitiful excuse for a minister doesn't mean they were incapable of receiving Christ at one point in life. I've seen some Chrisitans do some pretty hateful and despicably mean things.

It seems pretty pointless to me to argue over whether or not he was saved, unless you wanna have a lengthy doctrinal discussion.

Another topic for another thread, I guess.

Lord, help me. I just agreed with Oldies on something. :blink:

Please allow me to flog this equine beast for a moment...

IF being born again depends upon Romans 10:9.10... then have you REALLY believed (action?), made, accepted Jesus as Lord in your life IF YOUR LIFE IS STILL (in reality) RULED BY THE 'LUST OF THE FLESH'???

Just wondering...