Speaking in tongues

[cman]

Tongues are in a known language to you.

Though what is said is missed because of no interpretation.

'If there be no interpreter' then keep it to yourself.

You'll know if someone can interpret it for themselves, at least part of the message.

For one thing you are listening to yourself also.

1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Interpretation is different then understanding.

Understanding is fruitful mainly. And not without edification at times.

While interpretation is edification, not that understanding is not there, it's more then that.

It's an inner knowing, an inner universe being opened.

And it's not without the rest of the manifestations and fruit of the spirit.

And there is fruit of the Spirit with good old understanding also, if we let it.

[RainbowsGirl]

I still do! Is there a reason not too?

[cman]

No Rainbowsgirl. no reason to not.

[RainbowsGirl]

Thanks (((Cman))))))))))!

[Belle]

Well, almost instinctively, *my friend* started speaking in tongues to himself.

Lo and behold, he found it helped him to clear his mind and ignore the pain. Then, in a manner most rude, one of the Docs interrupted *him* to ask a question. There was that pesky pain again. After answering the question *he* resumed the SIT thing and, Voila!, the pain let up again.

Now, my friend has told me he has done something similar on countless occasions when refocus and concentration were needed.

Personally, I think TWI was "all wet" in what they taught about speaking in tongues but if you ever have a friend who decides to "lend you an ear", you might mention this benefit.

Did I mention this happened to a "friend"?

edited to mention this was several years ago

I, personally, believe that's what's called a "thought stopping technique" and any number of things could have provided your *friend* the same benefit.... Hail Marys, quiet concentration on breathing, Hari Krishna, transcendental meditation....

But, I don't SIT anymore and never got anything out of it when I did do it. I was a faker although I really did want to believe in SIT and to believe it was what TWI taught it was.

I recommend "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer. It's helped me with a more balanced view on things as well as provided me with questions I ask myself when something seems "awesome" or "supernatural". Not that I don't believe in some stuff that would make Geo and Garth wanna puke on their boots :P but I do tend to take a more skeptical view of things like speaking in tongues and how, like Abi said, the Bible really doesn't teach much at all about. Most of what we've learned about it, if you stop and think about it, is really based on private interpretation and reading "into" the scriptures. Hence, the diverse beliefs about it.

[Abigail]

((Belle))

Good to see you out and about again, so to speak. :)

[Belle]

Thanks, Abi. I've learned so much from y'all down here in the basement and I have missed the good conversations, although I haven't contributed to much, I've certainly enjoyed lurking through the years.

I still don't know for sure what I believe about many things and it's all subject to change at any moment, but I'm enjoying the journey and that's the real destination, no?

[waysider]

snip

I, personally, believe that's what's called a "thought stopping technique" and any number of things could have provided your *friend* the same benefit.... Hail Marys, quiet concentration on breathing, Hari Krishna, transcendental meditation....

snip

is really based on private interpretation and reading "into" the scriptures. Hence, the diverse beliefs about it.

I agree with you---BUT--- I already know how to use this technique and have no idea how to do the TM thing, much less how to approach the Rosary.

Soooo-----Why not use it to my advantage without trying to put a spiritual spin on it?

I think it was Bolshevik or Mister P-Mosh( or maybe both) who posted some interesting stuff that came out of *glosslalia* research. The "thought stopping technique" was part of it.

All I'm saying is that I think it is possible to recognize it has some real benefit, even if its source of origin is a matter of disagreement.

[anotherDan]

I started this thread with a quote from one the foremost living theologians in the world, who "prays in tongues." Do I think it's OK that "rainbowgirl" speaks in tongues? Absolutely.

But the rhetorical questions at the end of 1 Cor. 12 have gotten me thinking about the position the Way took on "the manifestations of holy spirit." I have nearly every English translation of the New Testament in existence, and I don't think any one of them implies that "each one [of the manifestations of the spirit] worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing to every man serverally as he [the man] wills." Is virtually the whole theological world wrong, and VP Wierwille right about this? I don't think so. (Oldiesman, jump in any time. I love you, man.) The Way taught that all nine "manifestations" were available to all "born again believers." 1Cor 12,13 and 14 are interpreted in this "light." But it doesn't appear to me to be AT ALL what Paul is saying. Quite the contrary. It's particularly irksome to me, now, to hear someone cite "I would that ye all speak in tongues" as a mandate from Paul that we all SHOULD do it, with the implication that we all can do it. And if anyone considers himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Once Paul begins with "now concerning spiritual things..." he writes two of the most beautiful and practical chapters in the whole Pauline corpus. Chapter 14 is a little more difficult for me, interpretation-wise, but 12 and 13 are clear as a bell.

Paul's "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesy" is remarkably akin to when Moses said something along the lines of "I would to God that all of God's people were prophets, and had His spirit upon them!" (A wish that was fulfilled, God's way, through Jesus Christ). Paul is saying "I wish..." He then goes on to say "but rather [i.e. "more", and might even be better translated "moreso"] that you would prophesy.... that the church may receive edifying."

The whole point of chapter 12 is that we are different members of the same body. God has placed the members in the body as it has pleased Him. The whole body would be pretty pathetic if it was just an eye. It might see really well, but how would it get around? If something gets in my eye, I'm thankful I have a hand to rub it out. Romans 12 says, "we then having gifts differing according to the grace give to us..." then goes on to list things like prophecy, administration, teaching, etc. Here's how verses 6-14a read in the NRSV:

the formatting is my own, and without authority!

For as in one body we have many members, and not all members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another.

We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us:

prophecy, in proportion to faith;

ministry, in ministering;

the teacher, in teaching;

the exhorter, in exhortation;

the giver, in generosity;

the leader, in diligence;

the compassionate, in cheerfulness.

Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. Do not lack in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers. Bless those who persecute you...

You won't get any argument from me if you insist that each of us can exhort another, but you know what? Out of respect to the text we just read, I think it is fair to say that through the grace given to someone, the spirit "worketh" that exhortation "for profit withal" (as in 1Cor12:7) dividing to each his own as the spirit wills. This is akin, in the matter of tongues, in that it is indeed the man speaking, but it is the spirit that gives the utterance. When we get together, are all giving? No, they are not. Do all speak with tongues? No. Are all prophets? No. Not that we couldn't be any of these things, but again, out of respect for Paul's writings, we ought to say that if we don't all do all these, it is because the spirit is not "working" these various things in us at the moment. But what is needed, what is profitable, will be brought forth in God's children, as He "divides" to each of us.... "according to the grace given unto us." Just yesterday, I was witness to a selfless act of giving. This was as much a "manifestation of the spirit" as any prophecy I have ever heard. The spirit "worked" this in the heart of this beautiful believer, and she did the deed. I should mention that "as a man wills" is not unimportant. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If we are unwilling to be inspired, then it will not happen.

I admit the upshot of all this is potentially disturbing. Someone might say, "What the heck, then, have we been doing when we speak in tongues?" That thought surely disturbed me! But if I'm going to read the Bible for what it says, really endeavoring not to overlay it with what I might wish it says, this is where my current understanding lies. The technique of "leading into" tongues is totally extra-biblical, as are "excellor's sessions," practicing making the sounds differ, etc. Such practices are literally uninspired.

Try reading 1 Corinthians 12 in ANY English translation, or, if you're capable, in the Greek. Follow Paul's train of thought. Speaking from experience, once you see it, you'll never go back. It's that clear.

All that being said, Bishop Wright's quote moves me deeply, and though I've not settled all these "spiritual matters" into a cohesive theology, I am comfortable "praying in the spirit" = "praying in tongues" as the spirit gives utterance, as the spirit "divides" to me the "working" whereby I can pray in the spirit, where I can pray for things about which I do not even know, but the spirit does. It is my spirit praying (1Co14). And it somehow edifies me if I'm inspired to do it while in the congregation, silently, (words cannot utter some of these things: Romans8) and I speak "divine mysteries." If I do so, "verily" I give thanks well... in a manner that is pleasing to God. Another is not edified unless I'm inspired to prophesy or teach in words they can understand, which is why I would prefer to be inspired in those categories when I'm with others. After all, I can "pray in the spirit" when I'm all alone. But when I'm with the church, it is better to connect with them. Otherwise, they either will not understand the words I speak, unless they are interpreted, or they will think I'm crazy, which would be true, because I would be speaking out loud, but not to them. I'd be speaking to God, and yet they could not even say "amen" to my giving of thanks, because to them I'd be like some alien... maybe even speaking a language of angels! How would that be loving to them?

Some of my friends still hold firm to the old Way interpretation. I marvel, now, that I could have thought virtually the whole theological world was wrong about this, and that Dr. Wierwille was right. This raises questions I have not yet sufficiently tackled, particularly as to the nature of tongues with interpretation in the Church, and prophecy. "Word of knowledge" and the rest of the list in 12:7ff all need to be reconsidered. I'm rethinking what all these things should mean in the living Church today--how in practice God would have me to conduct myself.

One thing I do know, I will no longer make Paul's "wish" a command. I will, however, heed what Paul does command: quench not the spirit, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

I've been longwinded enough. Can't right now respond to the cessationists. I welcome your input.

Edited August 26, 2007 by anotherDan

[T-Bone]

Well, alrighty then…this is my post # 90 on Speaking in Tongues, how come? thread by Oakspear

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=247761

- a great thread to read all the way through, by the way – they’re all great posts on it, in my opinion.

I haven't figured everything out on the issue of TWI's version of speaking in tongues – but there has been an evolution of how I address the subject. Initially, when I left TWI most of my criteria were anecdotally based – trying to come to some conclusions thinking about my own experiences and those of others I knew in TWI. As time went on, I felt I needed to set some intellectual standards – and thus review the Bible, TWI's doctrine, and my own thinking a little more critically.

In my opinion, TWI's doctrine on speaking in tongues has eclipsed the importance of prayer in our understanding. I feel TWI's version of speaking in tongues is mind numbing [does not engage the intellect], and usually self-centered [directed towards a personal agenda]. It gives a false sense of securing the promises of God, insulates the person from the transforming effect of communion with God [since their mind is not involved in the process], and can lead to self-deception, pride, and hypocrisy. I have listed below a number of points as to why I think TWI's teaching on speaking in tongues is in error.

Some things to consider about Speaking in Tongues, TWI's version of it and Prayer in our Understanding

1. The significant purpose of Speaking in Tongues. I noted this in my previous post [# 71]. In The MacArthur Study Bible on I Corinthians 14, John MacArthur suggests tongues ceased after serving a threefold purpose: a sign to unbelieving Jews , a significant blessing of God building a new nation of Jews and Gentiles [Romans 11:11,12,25-27; Galatians 3:28], and authenticating those who preached the gospel [iI Corinthians 12:12].

2. Decline of Speaking in Tongues after the book of Acts period. The Encyclopedia Britannica notes under Speaking in Tongues "The greatest emphasis upon the gift in the early church was made by followers of the 2nd century prophet Montanus. His excommunication about 177 and the later decline of the sect probably contributed to a climate of opinion unfavorable to speaking in tongues, and the practice declined. During later church history, glossolalia occurred in various groups. In modern times, it occurred during various Protestant revivals in the United States, in the early 20th century." In The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: I Corinthians, John MacArthur states on page 361, "…the gift of tongues has evidently ceased because, since the apostolic age, it has reappeared only spasmodically and questionably throughout nineteen centuries of church history. The gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to or found in any writings of the church Fathers. Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the Corinthian church in the year 95, only about four decades after Paul wrote I Corinthians. In discussing problems in the church, Clement made no mention of tongues. Apparently, both the use and misuse of that gift had ceased. Justin Martyr, the great church Father of the second century, visited many of the churches of his day, yet in his voluminous writings he mentions nothing of tongues. It is not mentioned even among his several lists of spiritual gifts."

3. Different Greek words for "set aside" and "cease". From The NET Bible I Corinthians 13: 8-11, "Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways." In the Greek text set aside is katargeo and cease is pauomai.

According to The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised 1978 Edition by Harold Moulton, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in One Volume by Geoffrey Bromiley, The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter and A Basic Grammar of the New Testament by George Aristotle Hadjiantoniou: Katargeo [translated set aside] is passive – meaning something or someone is setting it aside. In the New Testament, this word can mean: to condemn to inactivity, to destroy, to take out of the sphere of activity, to make inoperative. In other words in saying, "prophecies, they will be set aside [katargeo]" either an event or a person is rendering prophecies inoperative. A few other katargeo occurrences: Romans 3:3 "make the faith of God without effect", I Corinthians 1:28 "to bring to naught things that are", I Corinthians 6:13 "God shall destroy both it and them", II Corinthians 3:7 "which glory was to be done away", II Timothy 1:10 "Christ, who hath abolished death."

Pauomai [translated cease] to stop, to come to an end. This word differs from katargeo in that it is in the middle voice – the subject exercises the activity indicated by the verb with special reference to itself. A few other occurrences of pauomai: Luke 11:1 "when he ceased, one of his disciples said", Acts 5:42 "they ceased not to teach and preach", I Peter 3:10 "let him refrain his tongue from evil." In other words, in saying "tongues they will cease [pauomai]" it implies a built-in stopping point.

From the above differences in the Greek words used for set aside and cease – it appears to me there's a difference in how tongues will stop and how prophesy and knowledge will stop. Perhaps it may mean God had a limited "lifespan" built into tongues and after serving their purpose [suggested in point 1] they stopped. Whereas, prophecy and knowledge will someday be rendered inoperative by some event or person – and until such time remain in effect.

4. Spiritual abilities are distributed according to God's discretion. As I mentioned in a previous post [#47] VPW taught that every believer has the ability to operate all nine manifestations suggesting I Corinthians 12:11 "dividing to every man severally as He will" meant as the man wills according to his believing. I disagree, in my opinion the entire chapter emphasizes it is God's prerogative to whom the spiritual abilities are given and that every believer is not given all nine. I think the chapter centers around God's influence - in I Corinthians 12: v.4 "…there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit," v.5 "…varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," v.6 "varieties of effects, but the same God," v.11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" v.13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…all made to drink of one Spirit" v.18 But now God has placed the members…just as He desired" v.24 "…God has so composed the body" v.28 "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles…" It makes me wonder – if God is the one who works all these things – then why do we need a man or a class to teach us about them? Where do you see in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 instructions on how to operate the manifestations – I mean how to actually do them? You don't! These chapters reveal how much the Corinthians wigged-out on their charismata! They needed some instruction on God being in charge, doing everything out of love and in a gracious and orderly fashion.

5. The Bible emphasizes we engage our intellect in prayer. A study of prayer in the Bible will often touch upon attitudes and thoughts we're to adopt and to avoid. Matthew 6:5 "…when you pray do not be like the hypocrite." Mark 11:25 "…when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him…" Matthew 6:7 "…when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." For the Bible to encourage us to cultivate humility, persistence, trust, forgiveness, sincerity, etc. in prayer necessitates we engage our minds in the process. I think there was a prevalent idea while I was in TWI that you could be out of fellowship, sinning like a trooper – but you could still speak in tongues which is perfect prayer so everything will work out alright anyway. I think true prayer comes from the heart – from way down deep inside our being – what we think about, what we want – a good reason for us to guard our hearts as Proverbs 4:23 says. To "tremble with fear and do not sin! Do some soul-searching as you lie in bed, and repent of your ways!" as Psalms 4:4 The NET Bible puts it.

I think when Scripture encourages us to pray in the Spirit it means we're to make a conscious effort to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit – reflecting on our motivation, thoughts, and behavior as we beseech our Heavenly Father. Psalms 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart." Could be understood two ways: God answers our prayers [the desires of our heart] and He may put desires in our heart. I equate delighting in the Lord as being in step with the Spirit. Ephesians 6:18 "With all prayer and petition [deesis] pray at all times in the Spirit…" The Greek word deesis is supplication, a request, or prayer for specific benefits. That implies the content of my prayers [specific requests] are directed by my mind. It is NOT pressing the S.I.T. button to launch a magical encrypted language that is equivalent to the Star Ship Enterprise's Photon Torpedoes…Didn't VPW in the PFAL class say he hardly ever prayed in his understanding? He believed in the superiority of speaking in tongues. Even in the Corps, I recall how often my mind drifted into daydreaming, worrying or thinking about anything EXCEPT what I was speaking in tongues for - doing the goofy 4 fifteens [yeah, that really kept TWI on the straight and narrow path!].

...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up! There have been times as I'm praying for something - when all of a sudden it's like a boxer nails me with a round-house punch while my guard is down; I become aware of how unloving I was toward my wife tonight, or lied about something at work. And as I recover from this blow to my ego - I feel a resolve to right that wrong and my prayer switches gears from being a prayer for whatever - to asking the Father for forgiveness, strength and wisdom to draft a plan of action. And how much of all that going on in our hearts is from the Spirit? The Holy Spirit oversees the Word of God. Much of our prayer phrasing comes from the Bible - I imagine the Spirit can make a particular word, phrase or thought sizzle with energy - or heal. Alright, I'm starting to sound like the sappy Eternity commercials "I don't know where I end and the Spirit begins." Better move on to point 6.

6. The essence of prayer is communion and partnership with God. The thrust of our Lord's teaching on prayer in Matthew 6:8-13 focuses our attention on the person of our Heavenly Father, His purpose and will, His sufficiency for us, His forgiveness, His guidance, His deliverance, His kingdom, power and glory. Point 5 is the process of prayer – point 6 is the object of our prayer. The object of our prayer should be God, His purpose, His will, His glory – not the thing we're praying for, not our own agenda. I think of Paul praying to God three times about his thorn in the flesh – the solution wasn't in Paul's prayers – but in God's strength! If prayer is to be such an integral part of our lives maybe it means any situation in life can be an opportunity to commune with our Heavenly Father, becoming an impromptu prayer/fellowship with Him. When I think of Psalms I think of the spiritually vibrant rapport the writers seem to possess with God – God Almighty – Creator of the Universe! Amid their confessions of doubt, frustration, sin, failures, disappointments – there's still some sort of indescribable tether, some connection, some partnership between the Creator and the creature. Yes, I believe we are fallen creatures - and that's why I'm amazed that God still wants us to approach Him – to hang out with Him – to confide in Him – to trust Him - and of all things to LOVE Him - He wants MY love!

7. TWI's pride with the manifestations overshadowed Christian love. I think I Corinthians 13, the chapter on love, sets the top priority for every Christian – a priority ignored by TWI. This is just my opinion – but try reading some of the My Story or By the Way threads. Note the frequent occurrence of leadership coming down on a believer because God showed them how screwed up they were and needed the beating of the week. When I was in Corps training – I got to see first hand the utter conceit of the top leadership of TWI – as they would speak with such hatred and disdain about any Christian group outside TWI, who didn't speak in tongues or operate the other manifestations according to their standards. Without the governing influence of love – our selfish egos become maniacal bulldozers plowing aside anyone who gets caught in the cross-hairs of our "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." Jesus summed up the whole point of God's moral law – LOVE for God and your neighbor. I don't recall in the gospels Jesus conducting a bunch of "practice sessions" on the revelation or power manifestations with His disciples; or teaching the "Advanced Class" on them. He sure did teach a lot about love – oh uh – verbally too, besides His example!

[Abigail]

Isn't it cool that the section on charity follows? As we get better in that area, the rest happens. If we are practicing love then we will, by course, allow God to work in us the thing that is most effectual for a given moment in time.

Sure, many of us can teach, many of us can exhort, but some of us really excell at teaching, some of us really excell at exorting. Can we all truly speak in tongues? I honestly don't know. And even if we are capable of it in once sense, there may be other things that hinder our ability. Does that make us somehow less important? less "spiritual" (for lack of a better term)? There are just some things I don't do well. I don't worry about that so much anymore because there are other things I excell at.

I really dreaded "manifestations" in fellowships. They always felt so contrived, they lacked charity. I used to pray I wasn't called upon for fear the words wouldn't be there. I used to plan ahead in case I was. I know, from reading the posts of others, I wasn't alone in that. Again, there was that fear. Funny how VPW taught how fear was the "sand in the machinery of life" and how twisted that all became in TWI. We were so often confronted for having fear, yet is was the very teachings of TWI that often instilled those fears.

One of my best friends from high school took the class in another state, at my encouragement. She never did "manifest" at the end of the class and was very harshly reproved for it. How sad - no love in that. Yet, the upside was she walked away from TWI and never looked back. She recognized the problem wasn't hers but theirs.

[anotherDan]

Thanks TBone!

boy, that's a beauty, ain't it?

In the opening post, I did put a link to that thread, intending this to be a continuation of it, and I recommended reading it. Lots of good discussion there, and as I re-read your post, I realize how much of an impact your words had on me. But again, there were a lot of good points-of-view. I think Oldiesman was in top form there, and I hope he'll join us in the continuing conversation. There were many good posts by lots of different people.

Despite the title of the thread, I want also to go further and explore the broader questions of walking by the spirit and simply "living" as God reveals we can and should live as believers. Healing and knowledge and wisdom and worship and giving of thanks are all a part of that. The Way's emphasis on S.I.T. and it's spin on it, as you pointed out, obscures something much more marvelous and living... something (as you said) that GOD does. And your post touches on many of those issues. Great stuff, T.

edit: Abigail, we're posting at the same time (I sometimes take a LONG time to compose!) You're right about love... chapter 13. And I think it was taught "back then," in fact I know it was, but as you and T said, it wasn't really praticed very well. There is still hope for us to grow into that, I think, especially if we have the humility to that which God is doing in the other "members." I believe that an important collateral issue to all this is the honor we are told we should give to others in the body who differ from ourselves in how they serve. Remember "every joint supplieth?" Jesus Christ the head, and we as members of his body, all working effectually for the edification of the church in love. So what say ye, other people?

edited to say, "boy, that's a beauty, ain't it?"

Edited August 26, 2007 by anotherDan

[Dot Matrix]

I was not lead, nor had I heard of speaking in tongues, when I did it.

I was upset as a teenager and I yelled to God, "I believe Jesus is Lord. I believe God got him up from the dead. But what f'ing good has it done me?"

A peace came.

I spoke in tongues.

It was so wild, yes I operated it, I went to watch myself do it in the mirror.

[anotherDan]

Dot, I guess you got your question answered!

[wrdsandwrks]

I really dreaded "manifestations" in fellowships. They always felt so contrived, they lacked charity. I used to pray I wasn't called upon for fear the words wouldn't be there. I used to plan ahead in case I was. I know, from reading the posts of others, I wasn't alone in that. Again, there was that fear. Funny how VPW taught how fear was the "sand in the machinery of life" and how twisted that all became in TWI. We were so often confronted for having fear, yet is was the very teachings of TWI that often instilled those fears.

One of my best friends from high school took the class in another state, at my encouragement. She never did "manifest" at the end of the class and was very harshly reproved for it. How sad - no love in that. Yet, the upside was she walked away from TWI and never looked back. She recognized the problem wasn't hers but theirs.

Wan't there a thread on "manifestations of holy boredom" or something like that. Seems to be a common observation, the repetition and monotony of what were supposedly an inspired message from God.

I've been in many different charismatic/pentecostal church services since leaving TWI 20 yrs. ago (well it took about 8 years to get back into anything but ex-way (lets sit around and pretend we're still in Twig ) Fellowships)). I've never seen anyone conduct tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy the way TWI did. I've never heard anyone call on someone by name to bring forth a tongue, interpretation or prophecy in a meeting. I don't see it that way in the Bible either. In the Corinthian church every one had something they wanted to "share", a song, a teaching, a tongue, a revelation or an interpretation.

If there's a time for the gifts in a service it will come either by someone coming forward and letting the person running the meeting that they feel they have a message to bring forth. There may be microphones set up for that purpose, or if the flow of the service is such, people who are inspired during worship will bring forth inspired words during or after the worship. The person who brings forth the words has to be inspired to bring them or there is no blessing, either to the congregation or to the one bringing forth the words. Once again, TWI in their obsession with leadership controlling everything, had to control and thus to stifle the flow of the Spirit of God in a meeting, and put fear in people. How can you worship freely or concentrate on a service when you're afraid of being compelled to do something for which there is no inspiration and no blessing, either to the hearers to the one forced to bring forth in such a manner.

It's so much better when someone is just bubbling forth with a word from the Lord and it comes forth as rivers of living water.

[Abigail]

I went to a Vineyard church for a time that operated that way Words. I was fresh out of TWI and found it strange, but now I think - probably not so strange. :)

[anotherDan]

Great post, Wrds.

I've never seen anyone conduct tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy the way TWI did. I've never heard anyone call on someone by name to bring forth a tongue, interpretation or prophecy in a meeting. I don't see it that way in the Bible either...

Interpretation and prophecy have not yet been discussed much on this thread (people being as they are, so courteous to stay on topic) But as most of you know, a number of people have had strong opinions of the nature of these two manifestations of the spirit. It wasn't until I came here that I read some of the things a splinter group had fallen into... leaders (and leaders' wives. Inevitable?) "prophesying" against leaders. Horrible stuff--what I read, at least. Other discussions have centered around the nature of the message, some saying that it is praise (i.e. "speaking the wonderful works of God" while others holding to the more traditionally prophetic, including warnings, "revelation," and pronouncing woes, blessings, and predicting the future. Please chime in if you have something to say on these matters. Wrds' point about control is reiterated below:

If there's a time for the gifts in a service it will come either by someone coming forward and letting the person running the meeting that they feel they have a message to bring forth. There may be microphones set up for that purpose, or if the flow of the service is such, people who are inspired during worship will bring forth inspired words during or after the worship. The person who brings forth the words has to be inspired to bring them or there is no blessing, either to the congregation or to the one bringing forth the words. Once again, TWI in their obsession with leadership controlling everything, had to control and thus to stifle the flow of the Spirit of God in a meeting, and put fear in people. How can you worship freely or concentrate on a service when you're afraid of being compelled to do something for which there is no inspiration and no blessing, either to the hearers to the one forced to bring forth in such a manner.

It's so much better when someone is just bubbling forth with a word from the Lord and it comes forth as rivers of living water.

I've been to one rather large church around here that has a bank of prophets, who sit in a certain row of the congregation. If they have something to say, they whisper it in a designated prophet's ear, and if he/she approves (I don't mean to imply that there are or are not women prophets... I don't remember) then they go ahead and step up to the mic. An interesting literal practice of "let the other [prophet(s)] judge"! From 1Cor14, I've long pictured the former prophet speaking to the whole congregation before the other prophet(s) judge, and if something is revealed to another that his nearby, let the former hold his peace, etc. But these folks wanted to nip any stray thoughts in the bud, I guess. I agree "it's so much better when someone is just bubbling forth with a word from the Lord and it comes for as rivers of living water." That just seems right.

Hey, Wds: "God was the engineer He knew every name, of those who would ride freely on the Mystery Train."

I still don't know for sure what I believe about many things and it's all subject to change at any moment, but I'm enjoying the journey and that's the real destination, no?

Abi says that's what the basement is for! I'm glad you're here, too, Belle

Edited August 27, 2007 by anotherDan

[Abigail]

Hey, Wds: "God was the engineer He knew every name, of those who would ride freely on the Mystery Train."

What about those who miss the train? Who for whatever reason don't see it coming? :)

[anotherDan]

I guess God would know that, too. It's only a song, Abi!

:P

[Shifra]

Faking SIT or any other manifestation is like faking an orgasm ... except your lover is God.

[Abigail]

Faking SIT or any other manifestation is like faking an orgasm ... except your lover is God.

<<<Abigail is biting her tongue and hoping Shifra will expand upon her statement>>>

[sirguessalot]

some have said that there are a thousand thousand distinct voices within each and every one of us

including those over-arching archetypal voices that conduct and speak for entire segments

a thousand thousand roles and reasons and relationships

not that we are so fragmented and schtizo

but that we are that radically detailed and contoured

and that radically directly nakedly in touch with that kind of truth at all times

like we are mostly like fish who do not know how wet we are...inside and out

with amazing patterns and intricate strands of knowing and being

and completely innocent as a babe about such things

as if we are already always in the throneroom of God

surrounded by angels sitting silent in the dark

waiting for us to wake up and light all our candles

and discover we are already home

and each of us is a doorway

in a vast vast mansion

right here...right now

in one way

perhaps speaking in tongues is to speak in colors

to speak in numbers, to speak in symbols

to speak in tones and hues and shades and degrees

to speak in waves, streams and lines

but and not mistake the language for the thing being described

tongues = flames = candles = a bandwidth of insights and illuminations and discoveries on the journey of life

an inward menora of flickering flames of our own naked awareness

when this much heavier metaphor than we've ever believed

ceases to be a metaphor at all...and often becomes useful as the only way we can speak of certain such things

just sayin...

[Abigail]

Thanks (((Todd)))

[Shifra]

Abigail,

A true manifestation of the Spirit is an unexplainable creation of a good and pure and beautiful result ... which can only occur when you and God interact in perfect intimacy ... so that for a few magical moments God and you become one and the same. And it feels really good. God plugs in to the human-ness of you and responds with a force which meets the need you have (words of guidance, miraculous turnings of events, absolute healing, permanent riddance of darkness ... whatever). And simultaneously you plug in to God, in pure love, to the level that you feeeeeeeeeeeeel and know and experience God ... in every cell of your "heart, soul, mind and strength". It's sensual and spiritual.

Explain how an orgasm works. I have no idea. Explain how a manifestation of the Spirit works. It's even more mysterious, even more beautiful.

Sometimes love-making produces intangible goodness, relationships, peace. Sometimes love-making produces brand new people. A genuine manifestation of the Spirit is like that too.

[Abigail]

Thanks Shifra. Perhaps someday I will be fortunate enough to experience that true manifestation. In the meantime, I guess the quest continues. :)