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did you ever hear wierwille speaking in tongues and/or interpret ?


excathedra
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But some letters that look as if they are latin are different in Greek :rolleyes:

I would also defy anyone who did not speak Welsh or Gaelic to work out how to pronounce things even when they are written using latin letters. :confused:

Pity we couldn't have given VP a Greek New Testament and asked him to show us how beautifully it sounded. :wink2:

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But some letters that look as if they are latin are different in Greek :rolleyes:

True, what looks like a "P" really has the "R" sound in Greek, for example
I would also defy anyone who did not speak Welsh or Gaelic to work out how to pronounce things even when they are written using latin letters. :confused:
Hah! I agree with you there! An overabundance of vowels and consonants that are pronounced differently depending on what vowels they are near...beautiful sounding language IMHO
Pity we couldn't have given VP a Greek New Testament and asked him to show us how beautifully it sounded. :wink2:

Something I just thought of, if he could quote Genesis then surely he knew that the first word in "the original" (as far as we know - Hebrew)wasn't God" but Beresheeth - "In the beginning", the second word barah and it was only the third word that was "God"
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"Replying to did you ever hear wierwille speaking in tongues and/or interpret ?"

As a matter of fact yes, on many occasions. I first met VP when he came out to Caifornia the second time way back when, in Mill Valley. That would have been sometime in late '68 or some time in '69, I forget. He had several meetings, etc. Then later he came out for an "Advanced Class" , then somewhere later the West Coast run of the "Way Presents" meetings and mini-concerts. I was around him in some meetings and some smaller one and two-to-one discussions throughout that time period. As most of you know I was in Joyful Noise from it's inception then and on the Way Prod staff at the Way Nash till 1980 and was around him quite a bit when we travelled, in our concerts and other kinds of meetings.

He spoke in tongues and interpreted on many occasions over those years, as well as prophesied. I would disagree that he never did or only did in PFAL. He didn't at every meeting however or every instance where there ws what was called a "believer's meeting".

As to the "sound" of it, there was a common sound and I'd agree that the words quoted throughout this thread were commonly used by him but weren't the only ones.

I think because they were picked up on by a lot of people from PFAL and different teaching series they circulated that way. Once I heard him speak in tongues in a completely different sounding set of words, others time would sound similar but not always identical. Overall there was a similar sound, yes.

I'm sure many people must have asked him over the years "why does it often sound exactly the same" in regards to words and pronunciation. I did. He answered "I don't know, I just believe that if a person keeps believing they'll do it". In that discussion I got the impression he wasn't focused on whether or not it was legit, as there wouldn't be a specific way to tell, without God revealing it and that might not always happen.

My own conclusion over the years has been that while many people try to "do it" they really don't all the time or every time. Many of the posters on GS have given testimony to that fact as many have said they themselves "faked it" or did something or other to get by in the absence of what they were told "should" be happening.

It's obviously possible for someone to mimic the process and sound and produce a reasonable sounding result. It wouldn't surprise me that others wouldn't always know that as there isn't a clear way to tell by the sounds only.

Many times over the years visiting home fellowships I would hear people and "know" that it wasn't completely right, whatever they did. I'm not a believer in the "excellor" sessions as I feel those can actually contribute to a false process and result.

I would just talk to the people and encourage them generally and "build them up" as we used to say. I feel that the faked or nervously spoken whatever stuff was a result of feeling pressured or unsure about themselves. There was a lot of pressure at times from others to "do it do it do it" and that usually started at the end of PFAL in the 12th session and continued. But within a few years I learned that the best route to take was to let others move forward on it at their own pace, while expecting that it was a normal part of what a Christian could do. That could be difficult to navigate as not everyone agreed that was acc'rit.

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thank you socks, i do respect you and think very fondly of you

at this point, i can't remember why i started this thread

also, i'm not sure at all i buy into the whole SIT/interpret thing anyway

love,e

ps. no disrespect intended, but it never really helped me

And you know, that raises an important point. If the whole thing was only glossolalia anyhow, who cares whether or not VPP did the manny thing?

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No problema exnosh. I dunno - seeing these really old threads pop up is kinda funny, I couldn't remember if I, socks, had denied the many here the kind of scintillating enlightenment that even a few words from me, socks, would provide. Rather than risk such a thing I posted. But it's kinda like eating your own fingernails the way these things come back up.

The whole thing "glossalalia"? Oh no, not in my opinion or experience. Like I wrote (and I'm sure many a good Wayfer or perfectly good ex-Wayfer would disagrree with that too so I don't expect to build much of a congregation talking about this stuff) many do something that I can't say what it is exactly but my sense, my "feeling" my deep inner yarn tells me it isn't actually a manifestation or product of a spiritual reality. It's perfectly serviceable something or other but not the product of what we used to call and still might, "pneuma hagion".

Sort of.

I can't give a short synopsis of what I believe "SIT" is and what's going on when a person does it but I don't feel it's completely man's "soul life" as we used to call it or God's spirit driven but rather a combination of both. There isn't a whole lot in the Bible about it anyway but there is a lot about the various unusual and miraculous events that occurred to many different kinds of people including the non-Israelite "Gentile", the "Jew" as well as the followers of Jesus Christ later in the book of Acts. I think it's a good idea to read the Bible and give it some time to think about it, ponder it, see what happens as the information is thought about, considered, checked, studied and again mostly considering it's meaning.

Personally I do speak in tongues. Not all the time but with regularity, every day at various times. I do without stopping whatever else I'm thinking about, seemingly. I don't have a clear measurement for it but it seems like if I am and continue I can talk while continuing. Lemmee see...

Why, it appears that yes, that's what happens. Dunno, I don't always do it but there will be times when it seems to be the thing to do and I wouldn't not want to do it or prevent myself from uh, doing it.

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Sometimes I think we were just so used to hearing certain phrases and reading certain verses in the Bible that it all became rote. It definitely wasn't inspiring most of the time.

Then there were the stories the ministry cirulated about SIT. You've probably heard them: teh guy who SITed in his sleep; somebody would speak in tongues and an audience member would recognize the language.

Fact or Benny Hinn fiction?

You make the call

SoCrates

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It sure mustve been remarkable :blink:

In the OT when "God spoke" via prophecy people had no problem remembering it for 30 , 40 or 50 years before they wrote it down down.

Not horribly remarkable. They didn't have rock videos and 30 second commercials then. Their attention spans were longer than a ferret having a double expresso.

SoCrates

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I've been reading post in this thread arguing whether leadership faked SIT or not. But there's a bigger issue at hand: whether they did or not, how would we know? Dig, their pretty much cover by the tongue of men or angel thing. The can take any language but English and claim that was their tongue, on the other side, if they were too lazy to take a forgiegn language class, they could spout gibberish and chalk it up to an angels tongue. We wouldn't know one way or the other.

Its kind of like how they taught the bible. Anybody who's been in an English Department at a university knows what they're doing. That's why there' so many thesises (thesi?) on what the white whale means in Moby Dick. I've always asserted the only one who knows what the white whale is is Melville and if you asked him he'd probably tell you it sounded good.

The only way to know whether we were really taught the true bible (Doing a lousy Veepee impression: The one holy men of god spoke of as they were moved by the Holy Ghost) is to be fluent in ancient Greek, fluent in ancient Hebrew, have access to ancient manuscripts, know all orientalisms, yadda yadda yadda...yadda yadda.

That's why, have you ever notice, all veepee's radical notions are in the origional Greek? Who's going to challange it? He biases the interpretation by teaching his interpreters the same flaws. Nobody under him dared say a word.

Terry Prichertt in Hogsfather speaks of why kids are taught about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. "WE have to believe the little lies before we can believe the big ones."

"The big ones?"

"Ground this whole universe to atoms, I dare you to show me within that mess, one atom of freedom, one molecule of love."

Maybe we have to believe nonsense syllables are handed down from on high so we can believe there's a cosmic Santa Claus just wait for us to believe so he can fulfill our wishes like a vending machine, or so we can believe a person who can get amazing revelation from God is the same person who hasn't the self control to keep his hands to himself and be true to his wife

For all we know SIT really did die with the apostles.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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There will be no gnashing of teeth on my end. I like my teeth. :biglaugh:

Like the minister who taught about the end times and said there will be a great wailing and gnashing--I say gnashing of teeth.

A little old lady in the front row chimed in: "What if you have no teeth?"

"Teeth will be provided."

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So-C, There's no real argument over the speaking in tongues. We can argue about it I suppose but it's not of any real consequence to anyone else whether I or they or anyone does or doesn't. So why argue? Because someone else's card had to be punched that month to get someone else to manifest? We all grow up and if need be, away from the influences that inhibit growth, for ourselves.

If it's just thought and inclination it doesn't require the Thought Police to make a sweep and keep everyone else from the privacy of their own choices, which are in fact their own choices. If it's an act of worship and prayer, desecration without cause might produce some surprise results.

Wassup johhiam? :)

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So-C, There's no real argument over the speaking in tongues. We can argue about it I suppose but it's not of any real consequence to anyone else whether I or they or anyone does or doesn't. So why argue? Because someone else's card had to be punched that month to get someone else to manifest? We all grow up and if need be, away from the influences that inhibit growth, for ourselves.

If it's just thought and inclination it doesn't require the Thought Police to make a sweep and keep everyone else from the privacy of their own choices, which are in fact their own choices. If it's an act of worship and prayer, desecration without cause might produce some surprise results.

Wassup johhiam? :)

I agree its up to the individual to decide. It can't be proven one way or the other. What people do on their own is none of my business. But, when they involve me, then I have something to say about it.

If people want to have faith in unicorns or pots of gold at the end of rainbows I don't care. Just don't try and ram it down my throat.

One of the things I've learned from science is we have a belief engine. To put it simply: the rabbit that believes the grass moving is a wolf lives to carry on their genes. The rabbit that hangs around to see if it truely is a wolf has a lesser chance of carrying on its genes. So our brain is hardwired to believe things without proof.

Do I SIT? Not anymore, haven't in years. I've found it shuts off my ability to think. Seems you can't think and SIT at the same time. Which, oddly, worked to da vey's advantage.

SoCrates

Edited by So_crates
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Yeah, the cram it down your throat thing doesn't work either way, coming or going, does it?

Do I SIT? Not anymore, haven't in years. I've found it shuts off my ability to think. Seems you can't think and SIT at the same time. Which, oddly, worked to da vey's advantage.

How'd you figure that out? I'm really curious is all. Did you actually experience that you didn't think hmmm thoughts, when doing it, at the same time, or that your thinking ability or processes were impeded or degraded by doing so? Were there long periods of one or the other where one somehow cancelled or prevented the other?

The "work to the Way's" advantage comment I have read from time to time on GS but I don't see how, frankly.

To make an independent decision -

That no one else can validate as authentic or fake -

And if you don't think it actually does anything

??

How does the Way get benefit from that? I don't get it.

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maybe it's like walking and chewing gum . . . or rubbing your belly and patting your head ^_^

They could often site "look, I can SIT and shoot a basket", for example. Some people are better at multitasking than others. I can drink a beer and watch a game at the same time. Perhaps my focus is diverted for a second and I miss a play.

It takes some, small amount of energy to tell yourself "SIT. . .okay . . . keep doing it . . . now stop . . . no no no . . . don't stop". Mental energy that could be used somewhere else. At some point it becomes a mindless habit.

It's like intentional daydreaming, you could say. Why ponder when you can SIT?

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Ye[/i]How'd you figure that out? I'm really curious is all. Did you actually experience that you didn't think hmmm thoughts, when doing it, at the same time, or that your thinking ability or processes were impeded or degraded by doing so? Were there long periods of one or the other where one somehow cancelled or prevented the other?

The "work to the Way's" advantage comment I have read from time to time on GS but I don't see how, frankly.

That little voice in my head can't SIT and say "Danger Will Robinson , danger" atthe same time.

Werewolf himself said you can't hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. If your busy SITting you shut off the judgement ability of your brain. No red lights going off when your twig leader (who's supposed to be recieving revelation from God) falsly accuses you of shoving a $20 into the horn of plenty thereby proving your not a cheerful player (abundant life? bxzzzzz! Thanks for playing. No mental sirens go off when thge upper tree (including the redwood himself, vp) start harping on all the "rumors circulating about the ministry (well, proven again, where there's smoke, theres fire--probably why its a cliche).Werewolf: "And the things they say I do at night with the money I get from you (wolf whistles).

Many of us saw the red flags, but they're only apparent in retrospect. I wonder if this wasn't in part due to the fact our brain was busy with other thing.

SoCrates

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When you speak in tongues, silently, in the manner we were instructed in The Way, there is a part of your brain that becomes more receptive to suggestibility. This is simply a proven, scientific fact. Now, there may be some Christians who would view that as a benefit, a way to open up the direct line of communication between you and God that doesn't encumber you with the weight of thinking. In fact, in the Advanced Class, we were told it was an absolute necessity for anyone seeking spiritual enlightenment. (A.C. syllabus, page 10: "Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to receiving revelation.")

Consider this in light of "the lift list". We were supposed to combine speaking in tongues with the so-called law of believing, drawing on the Blue Book lesson that admonished us to focus on our desires. So, as we spoke in tongues, we were to focus on the subject at hand. At the top of our lift lists, we were supposed to pray for the leadership, Wierwille being the primary occupant of the highest leadership position.

So, you started your lift list by focusing on a very positive image of Wierwille, as he was smiling, in good health, increasing in ability to research and teach, increasing in his spiritual perception, etc. Meanwhile, because you were combining this with speaking in tongues and were more receptive to suggestion, you were, on a subconscious level, developing a positive image of Wierwille in your mind. You were, to some extent, deluding yourself into accepting the false, positive image of Wierwille that, for some, has been difficult at times for the mind to refute

Clearly the law of believing (camera focus variety of The Blue Book teaching) does not work. If it did, Wierwille would have become a product of the images in so many people's minds instead of an abusive, drunken, sexual predator.

So, in my opinion, Wierwille, himself, disproved the efficacy of the law of believing as well as the hyped value of speaking in tongues.

Edited by waysider
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That little voice in my head can't SIT and say "Danger Will Robinson , danger" atthe same time.

Really?

Werewolf himself said you can't hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. I

Is he the authority on such matters?

If your busy SITting you shut off the judgement ability of your brain.

I don't see that, sorry.

No red lights going off when your twig leader (who's supposed to be recieving revelation from God) falsly accuses you of shoving a $20 into the horn of plenty thereby proving your not a cheerful player (abundant life? bxzzzzz! Thanks for playing. No mental sirens go off when thge upper tree (including the redwood himself, vp) start harping on all the "rumors circulating about the ministry (well, proven again, where there's smoke, theres fire--probably why its a cliche).Werewolf: "And the things they say I do at night with the money I get from you (wolf whistles

Never experienced that but you have my full sympathies. But I would have to disagree, I dont' see the relationship between the two and can't ever recall my judgement being that impaired by or "while" I was speaking in tongues. I'll admit openly I may not be familiar with all the various rituals and rites that may have developed thorughout the Wayfer communities, but my own exposure and what I did see throughout the country wouldn't support that, but hey. I can definitely accept that if that's what people say they experienced and it's what you say happened to you, there must be a reason. I can't see that it would be actual SIT's though.

Many of us saw the red flags, but they're only apparent in retrospect. I wonder if this wasn't in part due to the fact our brain was busy with other thing.

Hmmmmm....hmmmm........ Dunno, can't get inside someone else's head. ("Hey! there's some cool stuff in here!') :biglaugh:

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quote: They could often site "look, I can SIT and shoot a basket", for example. Some people are better at multitasking than others. I can drink a beer and watch a game at the same time. Perhaps my focus is diverted for a second and I miss a play.

During the late 90s I worked with several non TWI Christians. I deliberately avoided talking about abortion and the trinity, but I admitted I spoke in tongues. These guys weren't particularly shocked. One thing I told them was that I could speak in an unknown tongue and think in English at the same time, because SIT didn't require my senses mind other than deciding to do it.

Another thing the above quote made me think of is: it says in scripture that one cannot serve 2 masters. Serving a master and having a thought are not the same thing. If I'm driving down the highway I can stay in my lane safely and listen to music/talk radio and even think about people, conversations, etc.....ALL at the same time. Serving a master, literal or figurative, requires enough focus that it can't be multitasked with anything else like that. If I'm driving on the highway and I get into the music a bit too much, or I think too hard about something, THEN I may notice that I'm too close to the car ahead of me, but multitasking? I'm for it.

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