More thoughts on WHY the language of TWI was developed and enforced:
How we think is often based on how we speak or how we hear others speak. Reading, too, is all about our language. Like I said earlier in this thread, foreigners who are fluent in English will usually tell you that they still THINK in their native tongue. This is how our brains work.
Sooooo....
To say that a mere human could "create", as Nero pointed out, would have been an acknowledgment of an ability (God-given, by the way) which very few of the Way leadership actually had. VPW copied much of his material from other authors, LCM dabbled and failed in his attempts at dance and acting, and the clergy simply imitated the top dogs. No creativity in these guys. If, then, a lowly TWI person were to be "creative", it would give that person power beyond their leadership. It would also allow for "creative" thought and expression, and just imagine how threatening that would have been to the whole structure and doctrine of TWI. By eliminating the word "creative", they very quietly eliminated creativity.
Likewise, words like "Luck" and "Chance" took power away from the Nazi leadership of TWI, and gave it to ... fate.
Words like "twig" very subtly implied smallness, or something that is easily broken. This helped us to define who we were as part of the twig - weaklings!
The Way became so arrogant about controlling our language, that they even made up words that no dictionary contains ... such as "retemory" ... which then made us all sound like total fools out in the real world.
If you pick up any book on cults, you will find that an actual characteristic of most cults is that they have a rigid vocabulary which has been modified from the normal language of the area. Incredible that we were so tricked and confined by this, and that many of us STILL use Way-speak years later.
Intead of Christmas it was "Ho-Ho" WTF? Because we didn't believe Christ was born on that day or whatever.
I remember we had "twig" when I was younger. Then it was turned to "fellowship" later. Both sounded equally as stupid. I couldn't call it "my church" I couldn't call it "my religion" which I knew made me look like an idiot when I tried to explain it.
We had a "fellowship coordinator" instead of a priest.
Still much more but I can't seem to think of all of them at once hehe.
The Way became so arrogant about controlling our language, that they even made up words that no dictionary contains ... such as "retemory" ... which then made us all sound like total fools out in the real world.
If you pick up any book on cults, you will find that an actual characteristic of most cults is that they have a rigid vocabulary which has been modified from the normal language of the area. Incredible that we were so tricked and confined by this, and that many of us STILL use Way-speak years later.
Tell me about it! Sometimes I get nervous about how I sound and I'll ask if what I said just made sense (to whoever I'm talking to at the time). I've been in twi my whole life so I'm not sure sometimes if my expressions are real or not. I am starting to use normal words a lot more. Like I'll tell people when "Went to church" or "The priest said this" Although even today it sounds weird coming out of my mouth.
Hi Shifra!..........thanks for that really incisive post!..........i think you're absolutely right on the subtle, but powerful "mind control" twi exerted over it's most faithful followers!.............a critical "need" of any totalist system's ideology is to discourage, and eventually annihilate any critical thought among its adherents..........this necessity requires constant, aggressive, attack on the "normal" vocabulary of the followers in order to re-program the individual thought processes to align with the group-think mentality that fosters the reliance upon cult propaganda, which, in effect, obscures from view what the cult is really saying to its followers and the real world!................it fosters an arrogant, exclusivist mentality that sees the exclusion of "normal" idioms of speech as a "sacred mission" requisite to the spread and acceptance of the totalist ideology.............e.g. "the word over the world"!..........it helps to get the folowers to think in absolutes.......black or white only.........no gray or shades therof!!!..............only "we" are right........."they" are wrong!!!!................it generates a false sense of security in the "rightness" of our group and a generalized disdain for the "wrongness" of all those who "oppose us"!!...................if you don't speak correctly, you will not think correctly!.........if you don't think correctly,("renew your mind"), you will never believe correctly!.........that's why you need "us" to correct your speech, so that "we" can correct your thinking and get you to vigorously believe what "we" say!!!!..................this psychodynamic is true of all totalist systems.............there is absolutely no room for individuality................no room for freedom of expression.............."the household" is your freedom..........all else is "slavery" to the "old man nature"...........so.......the lie becomes the truth...........just like goebbels sneered.................."tell a lie loud enough, long enough, and eventually............"
Hi Nero!................your perspective........as a person "raised in twi"........provides unique and crucial insight for someone like me!!!.........i left twi 21 years ago, after 16 years "in"!.........i know how "wierd" it was re-entering the real world after those 16 years in the "twi-light zone"!!!!........and i had only spent a little less than half my life in twi by the time i left.......,and only the 2nd half at that!!!.........so, i can only imagine how weird it must be for you to readjust after being "in" for your whole life!!!!!.........i can certainly relate to your "nervousness" and insecurity at how you come across to others!...........but.......you have your whole life ahead of you now!!!!.........congatulations to you for having the courage to stand up for yourself , find yourself and be yourself!!!
One of the best things i ever did for my three children, was to spare them the torture of being raised in twi!!!!........my oldest was just 7 when we left..........and, thankfully, they've all had the benefits of a public education free from the constant nitpicking intrusions and mental meddling of twi theology!!!..........by the grace of god they are each living successful, happy, "normal" lives!!!..........and i'm proud of them for choosing for themselves what they believe!!!.............it's sad that your relationship with your parents is limited by the twisted distortions of twi.........but........who knows........you may yet meet up with them here at the greasespot cafe and share a few cups of our "reality brew" with them!!!........in the mean time..........keep moving forward in your new life of individual freedom of speech and thought!!!!........the nervousness will fade........and your courage and honesty will help you forge your own success in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!!
for you, nero, truly, the best is yet to come!!!............and, btw,.........welcome to the spot!!!!!...............the reality brew's on us!!!..........................peace.
I don't know if terminology or lingo if specific to a cult. Lots of companies have their own lingo for different forms or different departments. Amway has their own lingo. Star Trek fans have their own lingo. Rush Limbaugh fans have their own lingo.
Getting more to the point of believing versus faith. First of all, if both words believing and faith come from the same Greek word pistis, then why should it always be translated believing.
Secondly, believing what God tells you to do and then carrying out those details is the only situation where believing yields expected and intended results. Simply believing for a million dollars will only lead to frustration and unfulfilled expectations. And if believing equals receiving, there would have been a lot more millionaires in TWI than there was or is.
Thirdly, God is our Father. Our Heavenly Father often gives us good things whether we deserve them or not or whether we believe for them or not. Being blessed is not tied to believing for any specific thing(s) to happen.
Fourthly, faith connotes a strong connection to God, whereas believing can be anything for which there is no doubt such as believing that the earth is oval and rotates around the sun. Faith is connected with God but believing is just our mental state.
Don't get me wrong, I think Christians who do believe that good things will happen to them is a good thing. But, faith in God helps us more.
I don't know if terminology or lingo if specific to a cult. Lots of companies have their own lingo for different forms or different departments. Amway has their own lingo. Star Trek fans have their own lingo. Rush Limbaugh fans have their own lingo.
Different subcultures have their terms- but cults use words to CONTROL IDEAS.
If you control the words used to represent ideas, you control the ideas.
Cults are about CONTROL.
Subcultures rarely try to control the terms, and especially don't try to control ideas.
They're certainly not centrally-controlled, themselves.
Getting more to the point of believing versus faith. First of all, if both words believing and faith come from the same Greek word pistis, then why should it always be translated believing.
Consistent translation is an issue with Bibles. If one word's translated into DIFFERENT words,
then the translator's controlling the ideas.
Then people get MISIMPRESSIONS based on his translational choices.
For example, if he translates "fill" into "replenish", we get people saying something was DEPLETED
and needs REPLENISHING. (vpw on a poor translation in Genesis.)
If he translates "thoroughly" into "throughly one place, we get people explaining how "throughly"
is more extreme than "thoroughly" (vpw on a poor translation in Genesis.)
If he translated "foreknow" into "foreordain", then entire doctrines can be formed about the difference
between the two words (cg did that one...)
That's why one Greek word should be one English word.
I don't want any translator foreordaining my doctrine.
Secondly, believing what God tells you to do and then carrying out those details is the only situation where believing yields expected and intended results. Simply believing for a million dollars will only lead to frustration and unfulfilled expectations. And if believing equals receiving, there would have been a lot more millionaires in TWI than there was or is.
Agreed. I don't get what's so difficult about this.
Thirdly, God is our Father. Our Heavenly Father often gives us good things whether we deserve them or not or whether we believe for them or not. Being blessed is not tied to believing for any specific thing(s) to happen.
Agreed. God doesn't fit in formulas-He's our Father!
Fourthly, faith connotes a strong connection to God, whereas believing can be anything for which there is no doubt such as believing that the earth is oval and rotates around the sun. Faith is connected with God but believing is just our mental state.
Don't get me wrong, I think Christians who do believe that good things will happen to them is a good thing. But, faith in God helps us more.
David
Agreed.
But I'm reluctant to make 1 Greek word 2 English words, for reasons I gave above.
Especially when people claim distinctions between the 2 are Biblical, when they're identical Biblically.
Your desire for consistent translation of words is logical but unworkable. Think of how complex language is. If we limit each word to only one meaning, we'll need to quadruple our vocabularies. In English, we have the word close. What does that mean?
Simple you say. Close means in proximity to, the opposite of far.
No wait a minute. Close means to seal, the opposite of open.
Same word; two completely different meanings. They're even pronounced differently. The meaning of the word "close" is determined by its context. If you see it in a sentence, the surrounding words tell you which usage you're reading and supply the understanding. There are words like this in most languages and we process all of this information contextually as we read.
The Bible is no different. Words like pistis, pneuma, and pros, are used many times and the meaning must be determined in part by the context. Cases and tenses can also add clues to interpretation. The work of the translator is to bring the complexities of communication intact from one language into another. Im not a translator of course, but I imagine it's no easy task. The passage of almost two milennia and the possible changes that can occur as cultural information is lost only complicates he issue.
This issue of limited vocabulary having to convey complex and varied meanings is further complicated when primitive languages are used to communicate experiences not common to those cultures. Take for instance, the record of the transfiguration on the mount. We read in Mark that Jesus "And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them".
The word "fuller" is translated from the Greek word gnapheus. In modern English, "fuller" is an adjective sometimes used as a comparative word connoting degrees of completeness or capacity. (You ate seven slices of pizza so you're fuller than I).
The usage in Mark is obviously a noun because of its context, but we in this era have lost the meaning of what a fuller is because we don't have any fullers around anymore. They have gone the way of the milkman, the iceman, and the green grocer. We can still understand the phrase "as no fuller on earth can white them" because it follows the phrase "shining, exceeding white as snow. But if that verse simply said, "his raiment became as no fuller on earth can white them", we'd be pretty close to clueless.
So when you look at Biblical words, you have to consider the context, not just the Greek or Aramaic. Weirwille touched on this in Piffle when he taught about "bible kinds of faith" and listed nine usages of the word pneuma (which he plagiarized from E.W. Bullinger). The problem is not that translators are trying to control what we believe. they're simply trying to understand the original communication which was presented in various contexts determined in part by the culture of that era and communicate that to us in the context and culture of our era.
Need and Wants - how are they defined? How do you determine them? Let's look at it from the PFAL angle...
Parallel with the Word?
The bible doesn't define need and want for a person the same way PFAL does.
Needs and Wants - PFAL teaches God supplied your need, not your greed. What's greed?
Need is along the lines of the Phil 4:10 - God will supply all of your need acording to His riches in Glory by Christ Jesus.
Greed is over and above your need. Yada yada, something like you need a car, but you want a Jag. You don't need a Jag, you need a car. God guarantees your need.
How does getting "parallel" with the Word act as a step to receiving something from God, as one of the opening 5 steps in PFAL, when you're trying to receive a car?
Do you really need a car? Maybe what you need is transportation. Or maybe what you need is a job within walking distance and a date that likes to stay home and watch TV.
Nothing in the Word says you need a car, or a date or who, what or when. Nothing says take "this job, not that one". Or buy now, don't wait. There's no specific instructions to guide a person as to how to make a decision along these lines. Some general over arching wisdom and applicable examples, sure. But that Jag still looks pretty good, as far as the bible's concerned. Or that used Honda.
You will end up back at "what's available"? And what's available?
Jesus came to give life more abundant. Zoe! Life in all of it's manifestations! and more than abundant!
God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us. That's available, right up front. God can do a Jag, shoot. Jag's are tricyles to God. Think big. BIG.
But big was my "greed"....wasn't it? I gotta get parallel, get balanced, wasn't that it? Or was it. Hmm. Drapes, maybe, sure, Drapes. You NEED drapes, otherwise that goober down the street will never stop peeping in your windows. But RED drapes? Come on. That's nuts. What next, one o' those e-lectronic garage door opener thingies? And a re-mote for your TV?
Hmmm.
Need and want is subjective in PFAL when you lay it out, and based on my "believing" and God's ability. If both are big, why can't I have anything I want? The parameters are clear in PFAL - Big is beautiful. Big is God's way of saying "I love you", in Christ. God does Big and does it well.
Believing is an immutable law, and as a True "believer" operates that law, needs and wants come into focus. Anything's available, greed isn't determined by a biblical metric based on what the result is, how extravagant it appears, how big it weighs in at. When God paints, the ocean turns blue. When God sneezes, Saturn gets hurricanes. It's not the 'bundance of the abundance - it's a matter of the heart's intents.
Big isn't bad. Greed is. But everything in PFAL Session 1 teaches that greed can't be objectively measured from the outside, by the results alone, when you look at it squarely. Other factors have to point to what's greed and what's not.
Need and Want being parallel is a weak way of saying "believe big", based on the opening session of PFAL.
Getting your need and want parallel wouldn't be a step, therefore, it would be a result - of knowing what's available and how to receive. It's a"nother' thing you "need to know" to receive "anything" from God.
Once you understand exceedingly abundantly above what you can ask or think, and all of your need being supplied, and the means to energizing the process to receiving being believing - all bets are off. There's no way for another person to objectively evaluate another person based on what they're trying to receive.
Believing is the "key" that unlocks the doors. It's 'tween you 'n' God. Greed becomes an entirely different issue.
Well, that's the PFAL angle, described in somewhat length and circuitous manner, but there it is, sitting likea duck. In that way I think PFAL is somewhat contradictory and confusing. Taken on face value, you qucikly realize that both believer and non-believer receives abundantly - in this life.
Rain falls on the good and the bad. Sun shines when it does, everybody gets tan. The objective rendering of what's need and want becomes superfluous. Stuff is stuff. Get what you want. And need.
It's the Supplier at question here - or is it? Remember - rain and sun. Good and bad. God supplies a certain amount of abundance of all kinds to anyone. So again, to my mind, the external evaluation of results, need and want, all of that - is a moot point. A snoot point. A toot point. It's pointless to consider. Stuff is stuff. Get it while it's hot.
You know, just thinking about this "needs and wants being parallel" in context of some of the points raised here - fancy cars, red drapes - reminds me how this concept is so very "Western."Â Greed-based.
Spare a thought for what "needs" and "wants" actually are. Especially if one is in serious poverty, no matter what country one is in. I have a friend who's been a missionary in Burundi, where he and his family lived for many years. Most families were and are thrilled if they got one decent meal a day. D'ya think they're "believing for red drapes"? No, these people believe God to supply food that will help them keep their families alive.
And perhaps one of the "needs" and "wants" in richer countries is the need to recognise God as one's sufficiency and one's provider, and that he overprovides [financially] so that we have sufficient to give to help those who have less than us - whether it's helping those who've lost jobs, homes, and health in one's home country - or whether it's helping to support impoverished families overseas.
And perhaps one of the "needs" and "wants" in richer countries is the need to recognise God as one's sufficiency and one's provider, and that he overprovides [financially] so that we have sufficient to give to help those who have less than us - whether it's helping those who've lost jobs, homes, and health in one's home country - or whether it's helping to support impoverished families overseas.
I will tell you this. I had a job, bought a house (yep, bought it, with mortgage and all). A recession set in, many people were laid off work, including me. (With this mortgage, so potentially a loss of home!) It was a difficult time. And no jobs were out there, despite my strenuous efforts.
I eventually set up doing self-employed work. I believed God to supply people for whom I could work, and for enough money to meet my own legitimate needs (food, bills, etc) AND to have enough to be able to give to others. I saw being able to give to others as a need in my life.Â
Reviewing my now-long client list, I find that very many are elderly Christians who would otherwise have no-one to help them. By my working for them, I am helping God supply their need. Isn't that amazing? God knows what I need, and he knows what they need, and he matches us together. Absolutely FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!
What can I say? Managed to pay off the mortgage early, have no financial worries (except when it comes to retirement, and that's a mild concern but not a worry) and I can keep upping what I can give to support others - in my own country and overseas. I am very thankful to God for what is available to me and recognise that other countries cannot or will not so provide, so I support various charities that do provide. Oh, and I support my church as well. I know what good it does in my community.
In geometry, parallel lines are coplanar infinite lines that do not intersect at any point.
Because the Word works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision in the law of believing then we can safely produce the following mathematical corollary regarding needs and wants:
In geometry, parallel lines are coplanar infinite lines that do not intersect at any point.
Because the Word works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision in the law of believing then we can safely produce the following mathematical corollary regarding needs and wants:
If you want it you’ll never need it.
If you need it you’ll never want it.
Â
Â
Dude...that could be the sixth way corps principle....sure beats believe abundantly to live on a genuine need basis...and all that jazz..
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Shifra
Nobody except Way people say things like this: "I am believing to go on vacation" or "I am believing for a new car". Barf. Gag. I still catch myself talking like this sometimes, and I see it on G
Shifra
My heart goes out to the many people whose "believing" was insufficient (according to TWI) to prevent flat tires and rainstorms and illnesses. As a friend to lots of TWI folks through the years, it w
OldSkool
Ima be leaving now
doojable
Nero - welcome back to the the world of free speech... It can get rough because we all get to say what we like, (even if no one else likes it.)
Be creative and let the fur fly - in the shape of a cross OR a Buddha.
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Shifra
More thoughts on WHY the language of TWI was developed and enforced:
How we think is often based on how we speak or how we hear others speak. Reading, too, is all about our language. Like I said earlier in this thread, foreigners who are fluent in English will usually tell you that they still THINK in their native tongue. This is how our brains work.
Sooooo....
To say that a mere human could "create", as Nero pointed out, would have been an acknowledgment of an ability (God-given, by the way) which very few of the Way leadership actually had. VPW copied much of his material from other authors, LCM dabbled and failed in his attempts at dance and acting, and the clergy simply imitated the top dogs. No creativity in these guys. If, then, a lowly TWI person were to be "creative", it would give that person power beyond their leadership. It would also allow for "creative" thought and expression, and just imagine how threatening that would have been to the whole structure and doctrine of TWI. By eliminating the word "creative", they very quietly eliminated creativity.
Likewise, words like "Luck" and "Chance" took power away from the Nazi leadership of TWI, and gave it to ... fate.
Words like "twig" very subtly implied smallness, or something that is easily broken. This helped us to define who we were as part of the twig - weaklings!
The Way became so arrogant about controlling our language, that they even made up words that no dictionary contains ... such as "retemory" ... which then made us all sound like total fools out in the real world.
If you pick up any book on cults, you will find that an actual characteristic of most cults is that they have a rigid vocabulary which has been modified from the normal language of the area. Incredible that we were so tricked and confined by this, and that many of us STILL use Way-speak years later.
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Nero
More twi speak:
Intead of Christmas it was "Ho-Ho" WTF? Because we didn't believe Christ was born on that day or whatever.
I remember we had "twig" when I was younger. Then it was turned to "fellowship" later. Both sounded equally as stupid. I couldn't call it "my church" I couldn't call it "my religion" which I knew made me look like an idiot when I tried to explain it.
We had a "fellowship coordinator" instead of a priest.
Still much more but I can't seem to think of all of them at once hehe.
Tell me about it! Sometimes I get nervous about how I sound and I'll ask if what I said just made sense (to whoever I'm talking to at the time). I've been in twi my whole life so I'm not sure sometimes if my expressions are real or not. I am starting to use normal words a lot more. Like I'll tell people when "Went to church" or "The priest said this" Although even today it sounds weird coming out of my mouth.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Shifra!..........thanks for that really incisive post!..........i think you're absolutely right on the subtle, but powerful "mind control" twi exerted over it's most faithful followers!.............a critical "need" of any totalist system's ideology is to discourage, and eventually annihilate any critical thought among its adherents..........this necessity requires constant, aggressive, attack on the "normal" vocabulary of the followers in order to re-program the individual thought processes to align with the group-think mentality that fosters the reliance upon cult propaganda, which, in effect, obscures from view what the cult is really saying to its followers and the real world!................it fosters an arrogant, exclusivist mentality that sees the exclusion of "normal" idioms of speech as a "sacred mission" requisite to the spread and acceptance of the totalist ideology.............e.g. "the word over the world"!..........it helps to get the folowers to think in absolutes.......black or white only.........no gray or shades therof!!!..............only "we" are right........."they" are wrong!!!!................it generates a false sense of security in the "rightness" of our group and a generalized disdain for the "wrongness" of all those who "oppose us"!!...................if you don't speak correctly, you will not think correctly!.........if you don't think correctly,("renew your mind"), you will never believe correctly!.........that's why you need "us" to correct your speech, so that "we" can correct your thinking and get you to vigorously believe what "we" say!!!!..................this psychodynamic is true of all totalist systems.............there is absolutely no room for individuality................no room for freedom of expression.............."the household" is your freedom..........all else is "slavery" to the "old man nature"...........so.......the lie becomes the truth...........just like goebbels sneered.................."tell a lie loud enough, long enough, and eventually............"
Hi Nero!................your perspective........as a person "raised in twi"........provides unique and crucial insight for someone like me!!!.........i left twi 21 years ago, after 16 years "in"!.........i know how "wierd" it was re-entering the real world after those 16 years in the "twi-light zone"!!!!........and i had only spent a little less than half my life in twi by the time i left.......,and only the 2nd half at that!!!.........so, i can only imagine how weird it must be for you to readjust after being "in" for your whole life!!!!!.........i can certainly relate to your "nervousness" and insecurity at how you come across to others!...........but.......you have your whole life ahead of you now!!!!.........congatulations to you for having the courage to stand up for yourself , find yourself and be yourself!!!
One of the best things i ever did for my three children, was to spare them the torture of being raised in twi!!!!........my oldest was just 7 when we left..........and, thankfully, they've all had the benefits of a public education free from the constant nitpicking intrusions and mental meddling of twi theology!!!..........by the grace of god they are each living successful, happy, "normal" lives!!!..........and i'm proud of them for choosing for themselves what they believe!!!.............it's sad that your relationship with your parents is limited by the twisted distortions of twi.........but........who knows........you may yet meet up with them here at the greasespot cafe and share a few cups of our "reality brew" with them!!!........in the mean time..........keep moving forward in your new life of individual freedom of speech and thought!!!!........the nervousness will fade........and your courage and honesty will help you forge your own success in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!!
for you, nero, truly, the best is yet to come!!!............and, btw,.........welcome to the spot!!!!!...............the reality brew's on us!!!..........................peace.
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Biblefan Dave
I don't know if terminology or lingo if specific to a cult. Lots of companies have their own lingo for different forms or different departments. Amway has their own lingo. Star Trek fans have their own lingo. Rush Limbaugh fans have their own lingo.
Getting more to the point of believing versus faith. First of all, if both words believing and faith come from the same Greek word pistis, then why should it always be translated believing.
Secondly, believing what God tells you to do and then carrying out those details is the only situation where believing yields expected and intended results. Simply believing for a million dollars will only lead to frustration and unfulfilled expectations. And if believing equals receiving, there would have been a lot more millionaires in TWI than there was or is.
Thirdly, God is our Father. Our Heavenly Father often gives us good things whether we deserve them or not or whether we believe for them or not. Being blessed is not tied to believing for any specific thing(s) to happen.
Fourthly, faith connotes a strong connection to God, whereas believing can be anything for which there is no doubt such as believing that the earth is oval and rotates around the sun. Faith is connected with God but believing is just our mental state.
Don't get me wrong, I think Christians who do believe that good things will happen to them is a good thing. But, faith in God helps us more.
David
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WordWolf
Different subcultures have their terms- but cults use words to CONTROL IDEAS.
If you control the words used to represent ideas, you control the ideas.
Cults are about CONTROL.
Subcultures rarely try to control the terms, and especially don't try to control ideas.
They're certainly not centrally-controlled, themselves.
Consistent translation is an issue with Bibles. If one word's translated into DIFFERENT words,then the translator's controlling the ideas.
Then people get MISIMPRESSIONS based on his translational choices.
For example, if he translates "fill" into "replenish", we get people saying something was DEPLETED
and needs REPLENISHING. (vpw on a poor translation in Genesis.)
If he translates "thoroughly" into "throughly one place, we get people explaining how "throughly"
is more extreme than "thoroughly" (vpw on a poor translation in Genesis.)
If he translated "foreknow" into "foreordain", then entire doctrines can be formed about the difference
between the two words (cg did that one...)
That's why one Greek word should be one English word.
I don't want any translator foreordaining my doctrine.
Agreed. I don't get what's so difficult about this.
Agreed. God doesn't fit in formulas-He's our Father!Agreed.
But I'm reluctant to make 1 Greek word 2 English words, for reasons I gave above.
Especially when people claim distinctions between the 2 are Biblical, when they're identical Biblically.
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Jbarrax
Your desire for consistent translation of words is logical but unworkable. Think of how complex language is. If we limit each word to only one meaning, we'll need to quadruple our vocabularies. In English, we have the word close. What does that mean?
Simple you say. Close means in proximity to, the opposite of far.
No wait a minute. Close means to seal, the opposite of open.
Same word; two completely different meanings. They're even pronounced differently. The meaning of the word "close" is determined by its context. If you see it in a sentence, the surrounding words tell you which usage you're reading and supply the understanding. There are words like this in most languages and we process all of this information contextually as we read.
The Bible is no different. Words like pistis, pneuma, and pros, are used many times and the meaning must be determined in part by the context. Cases and tenses can also add clues to interpretation. The work of the translator is to bring the complexities of communication intact from one language into another. Im not a translator of course, but I imagine it's no easy task. The passage of almost two milennia and the possible changes that can occur as cultural information is lost only complicates he issue.
This issue of limited vocabulary having to convey complex and varied meanings is further complicated when primitive languages are used to communicate experiences not common to those cultures. Take for instance, the record of the transfiguration on the mount. We read in Mark that Jesus "And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them".
The word "fuller" is translated from the Greek word gnapheus. In modern English, "fuller" is an adjective sometimes used as a comparative word connoting degrees of completeness or capacity. (You ate seven slices of pizza so you're fuller than I).
The usage in Mark is obviously a noun because of its context, but we in this era have lost the meaning of what a fuller is because we don't have any fullers around anymore. They have gone the way of the milkman, the iceman, and the green grocer. We can still understand the phrase "as no fuller on earth can white them" because it follows the phrase "shining, exceeding white as snow. But if that verse simply said, "his raiment became as no fuller on earth can white them", we'd be pretty close to clueless.
So when you look at Biblical words, you have to consider the context, not just the Greek or Aramaic. Weirwille touched on this in Piffle when he taught about "bible kinds of faith" and listed nine usages of the word pneuma (which he plagiarized from E.W. Bullinger). The problem is not that translators are trying to control what we believe. they're simply trying to understand the original communication which was presented in various contexts determined in part by the culture of that era and communicate that to us in the context and culture of our era.
Peace
JerryB
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socks
Need and Wants - how are they defined? How do you determine them? Let's look at it from the PFAL angle...
Parallel with the Word?
The bible doesn't define need and want for a person the same way PFAL does.
Needs and Wants - PFAL teaches God supplied your need, not your greed. What's greed?
Need is along the lines of the Phil 4:10 - God will supply all of your need acording to His riches in Glory by Christ Jesus.
Greed is over and above your need. Yada yada, something like you need a car, but you want a Jag. You don't need a Jag, you need a car. God guarantees your need.
How does getting "parallel" with the Word act as a step to receiving something from God, as one of the opening 5 steps in PFAL, when you're trying to receive a car?
Do you really need a car? Maybe what you need is transportation. Or maybe what you need is a job within walking distance and a date that likes to stay home and watch TV.
Nothing in the Word says you need a car, or a date or who, what or when. Nothing says take "this job, not that one". Or buy now, don't wait. There's no specific instructions to guide a person as to how to make a decision along these lines. Some general over arching wisdom and applicable examples, sure. But that Jag still looks pretty good, as far as the bible's concerned. Or that used Honda.
You will end up back at "what's available"? And what's available?
Jesus came to give life more abundant. Zoe! Life in all of it's manifestations! and more than abundant!
God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us. That's available, right up front. God can do a Jag, shoot. Jag's are tricyles to God. Think big. BIG.
But big was my "greed"....wasn't it? I gotta get parallel, get balanced, wasn't that it? Or was it. Hmm. Drapes, maybe, sure, Drapes. You NEED drapes, otherwise that goober down the street will never stop peeping in your windows. But RED drapes? Come on. That's nuts. What next, one o' those e-lectronic garage door opener thingies? And a re-mote for your TV?
Hmmm.
Need and want is subjective in PFAL when you lay it out, and based on my "believing" and God's ability. If both are big, why can't I have anything I want? The parameters are clear in PFAL - Big is beautiful. Big is God's way of saying "I love you", in Christ. God does Big and does it well.
Believing is an immutable law, and as a True "believer" operates that law, needs and wants come into focus. Anything's available, greed isn't determined by a biblical metric based on what the result is, how extravagant it appears, how big it weighs in at. When God paints, the ocean turns blue. When God sneezes, Saturn gets hurricanes. It's not the 'bundance of the abundance - it's a matter of the heart's intents.
Big isn't bad. Greed is. But everything in PFAL Session 1 teaches that greed can't be objectively measured from the outside, by the results alone, when you look at it squarely. Other factors have to point to what's greed and what's not.
Need and Want being parallel is a weak way of saying "believe big", based on the opening session of PFAL.
Getting your need and want parallel wouldn't be a step, therefore, it would be a result - of knowing what's available and how to receive. It's a"nother' thing you "need to know" to receive "anything" from God.
Once you understand exceedingly abundantly above what you can ask or think, and all of your need being supplied, and the means to energizing the process to receiving being believing - all bets are off. There's no way for another person to objectively evaluate another person based on what they're trying to receive.
Believing is the "key" that unlocks the doors. It's 'tween you 'n' God. Greed becomes an entirely different issue.
Well, that's the PFAL angle, described in somewhat length and circuitous manner, but there it is, sitting likea duck. In that way I think PFAL is somewhat contradictory and confusing. Taken on face value, you qucikly realize that both believer and non-believer receives abundantly - in this life.
Rain falls on the good and the bad. Sun shines when it does, everybody gets tan. The objective rendering of what's need and want becomes superfluous. Stuff is stuff. Get what you want. And need.
It's the Supplier at question here - or is it? Remember - rain and sun. Good and bad. God supplies a certain amount of abundance of all kinds to anyone. So again, to my mind, the external evaluation of results, need and want, all of that - is a moot point. A snoot point. A toot point. It's pointless to consider. Stuff is stuff. Get it while it's hot.
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Jbarrax
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Only three, not five, pages.
It’s all that’s available. Three, not five.
Three short, exceedingly abundant, parallel pages. Just…
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…mmmph
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OldSkool
Ima be leaving now
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Twinky
Are you off on some parallel track now, OS?
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Twinky
You know, just thinking about this "needs and wants being parallel" in context of some of the points raised here - fancy cars, red drapes - reminds me how this concept is so very "Western."Â Greed-based.
Spare a thought for what "needs" and "wants" actually are. Especially if one is in serious poverty, no matter what country one is in. I have a friend who's been a missionary in Burundi, where he and his family lived for many years. Most families were and are thrilled if they got one decent meal a day. D'ya think they're "believing for red drapes"? No, these people believe God to supply food that will help them keep their families alive.
And perhaps one of the "needs" and "wants" in richer countries is the need to recognise God as one's sufficiency and one's provider, and that he overprovides [financially] so that we have sufficient to give to help those who have less than us - whether it's helping those who've lost jobs, homes, and health in one's home country - or whether it's helping to support impoverished families overseas.
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Twinky
I will tell you this. I had a job, bought a house (yep, bought it, with mortgage and all). A recession set in, many people were laid off work, including me. (With this mortgage, so potentially a loss of home!) It was a difficult time. And no jobs were out there, despite my strenuous efforts.
I eventually set up doing self-employed work. I believed God to supply people for whom I could work, and for enough money to meet my own legitimate needs (food, bills, etc) AND to have enough to be able to give to others. I saw being able to give to others as a need in my life.Â
Reviewing my now-long client list, I find that very many are elderly Christians who would otherwise have no-one to help them. By my working for them, I am helping God supply their need. Isn't that amazing? God knows what I need, and he knows what they need, and he matches us together. Absolutely FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!
What can I say? Managed to pay off the mortgage early, have no financial worries (except when it comes to retirement, and that's a mild concern but not a worry) and I can keep upping what I can give to support others - in my own country and overseas. I am very thankful to God for what is available to me and recognise that other countries cannot or will not so provide, so I support various charities that do provide. Oh, and I support my church as well. I know what good it does in my community.
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OldSkool
No just a lame attempt at humor...
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chockfull
In geometry, parallel lines are coplanar infinite lines that do not intersect at any point.
Because the Word works with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision in the law of believing then we can safely produce the following mathematical corollary regarding needs and wants:
If you want it you’ll never need it.
If you need it you’ll never want it.
Â
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OldSkool
Dude...that could be the sixth way corps principle....sure beats believe abundantly to live on a genuine need basis...and all that jazz..
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