The Truth

[Bramble]

So how does free will fit into this cattcar9?

One of the main draws for me when I first got involved with TWI was the loving, helpful, nurturing God portrayed to me. That God was so unlike the often angry and punishing God I'd learned of in my childhood, a scary god who taught you lesson with bad events.

The nurturing God spoke to me because I had an earthy father who was kind and loving and gentle. It seemed to me to be more true as to what a Father would be than the punishing/teach you a lesson God.

I think many young folks who got involved in TWI were thankful to leave the teach you a lesson God behind.

[pond]

bramble

I still am .

[cman]

Well it is good to hear from you cattcar9.

You make some very needed comments and suggestions.

Even with the nature of some of the horrendous deeds of men.

God is there.

No we will not figure it all out in this life-

the whys and what fors and how come.

Fortunately this one is very small in comparison to the life in us.

Yet to be fully discovered and won't be in the next either.

To be known as we are known, is that so hard a concept to grasp?

This is one of the things we will KNOW and grow up to.

Progress and awaking and enlightenment, involves some dark corners and places.

The God that we are in and the God that is in us is the same.

Just take a breath to 'see'.

To see that the very God who created darkness is the one that will be the light to shine out of it.

Burning with a scorching white hot heat of love to change himself which is us.

The presence of the spirit is to make known itself.

And it will, cause there is no escaping the fire.

And there is no escaping the clear pure water of life.

And the Tree that yields it's healing fruits in every season.

It resides in us and all around us.

It's happening even as we speak.

The unseen God can be seen in us because he is us.

God's will is for us to see.

When will others dare to make it their will?

How much do you want to take, messing around with foolishness?

We SAW the crap in twi and continued till we were full.

Is that not God's doing? The depth of the severity of ungodliness.

Is it not so that we can fully see.

Or do you want to see it again and label it something else?

Didn't we get a good enough picture of MEN?

Why not give and let ourselves be shown instead of being self made 'christians'.

Let us be made into what we are inside. And can be cause it's always been there.

Always, it never has left.

The words of the spirit will soon make their way to your ear.

It's very nature will soon be seen...in part.

With your hand in his, there is nothing we cannot see and handle.

It's been coming, is coming and will continue to.

It cannot be stopped by any man's will.

That will melt before his face.

And naked you shall return to the spirit that brought you forth.

And these things can happen now to the extent we are willing to hear and see.

Soon you will have to, no choice. It will be good, we are not to be afraid.

But we will be, and it will pass also......

Edited January 13, 2008 by cman

[cman]

sea sons

[Watered Garden]

In the midst of all these lengthy discourses I wanted to comment to Ex Cathedra that I think what you said lastly makes sense.

I find it extremely difficult to put it into words, but I have been working this very thing in my mind. Still working on it. May understand some of it someday.

WG

[rhino]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I believe God does all things.

I take it that means you believe God does the "evil" and the good, but that the "evil" is done for a greater good.

As you said, we made the choice to join TWI, but you said we were "delivered" from TWI. I think we made the decision to leave TWI, just as we decided to "join".

I also see others have free will to do harm to me. I don't believe it is God's will when they decide to shoot me in the head, and I don't learn anything from that experience.

I'm not planning to debate this with you verse by verse .. maybe I am just lazy, but my philosophy does not depend on a strict interpretation of various Biblical texts, so we are on different wavelengths anyway.

I don't think people here will be angry with you, I'm certainly not ... it sounds like a good Bible topic. But in essence if there is a thief that can steal and kill and destroy, is that thief of God? I think some bad things happen in our life that are not our fault and are not sent by God.

That thief fell by disobedience, he isn't said to be a strict schoolmaster ... he is a thief. That means he takes things that "belong" to others. And he kills and destroys too. If you are saying he only does that to people that are "out of fellowship", I think plenty here would recognize that as old TWI teaching.

Anyway, many here have given thought to many interpretations of the Bible. You said

Although the intent in your minds might have been to learn of God and the bible and be saved and live right and find God, God's intent was to take those thoughts and show you himself in your tribulations and trials.

I don't think God is that tricky. Also you would have to say He has a purpose in sending murderers to murder, or sending clergy to rape. It seems your philosophy comes up short fairly quickly, in my mind.

But it is worth discussing ... if God is all good, why does He allow evil to exist?

[Watered Garden]

Cattcar,

Have you ever taken a class taught by Dr. Bruce Wilkinson titled "Secrets of the Vine" or maybe read the book? Your doctrine and beliefs are very close to his, that God causes the bad things to happen to you as well as the good things.

Lessee. I have a disease called insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. I don't know what you know about diabetes. It is a malfunction of the body's ability to produce insulin, in part or in whole. Mine is in whole. My pancreas shut down 13 years ago.

At the time, I was involved with TWI. I was asked, "Do you understand what it is THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you."

The questioner's thought was that surely I had sinned and God was punishing me, or "disciplining" me as the good Dr. Wilkinson would call it, for some sin I had committed.

But I think you are saying that God gave me diabetes indeed, but His purpose is not necessarily to discipline me but to bless me, by later delivering me from the disease, hopefully before my legs rot off or I go on dialysis?

You have just blessed Satan mightily by ascribing evil to God, or by saying all things are from God and therefore there is NO evil.

I'm no scholar, and I really don't care to be, but I do not see any evil in God. And trust me, diabetes, cancer, hepatitis, heart disease, suffering and death are not good things.

Personally, when Satan hands me lemons, I try to use them to make lemon chiffon pie, to bring glory to God and defy the wiles of the devil.

Ask yourself this: Is Jesus Christ the living Word? Did He represent God accurately? If you answer yes, then look in the gospels and show me where Jesus did something evil to someone. Did He make people sick or heal them? Did raise people from the dead or kill them? Who is the "thief" in John 10:10?

wg

[waysider]

All men are liars----and that's the truth.

[cman]

And when man - self has been left. Selfless.

Then there is the opportunity to hear truth.

No man can see God and live.

The man must die. Romans. And the Spirit raised to life.

Awakened out of it's sleep. Thessolonians.

It's wisdom touching the hearing ear, the seeing eye.

Here and Now.

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.-Jesus.

And the man must rest until it is awakened again.

[cattcar9]

So how does free will fit into this cattcar9?

One of the main draws for me when I first got involved with TWI was the loving, helpful, nurturing God portrayed to me. That God was so unlike the often angry and punishing God I'd learned of in my childhood, a scary god who taught you lesson with bad events.

The nurturing God spoke to me because I had an earthy father who was kind and loving and gentle. It seemed to me to be more true as to what a Father would be than the punishing/teach you a lesson God.

I think many young folks who got involved in TWI were thankful to leave the teach you a lesson God behind.

Hello Bramble,

I'm not sure what your are asking with the "how does free will fit into this" question. Fit into what? And what do you mean by free will?

Also it's wonderful that you know what the intent of your mind was when you began considering TWI fellowship. I'd like to ask you if you found what your intent was at the time, and if not has your intent now changed?

I'd also like to ask a question but I fear that the very quetion itself will be offensive to you or possibly some here, having said that I'd like to state I'm going to ask it, but please accept that my reason for asking is not to offend it is a honest question that you don't even have to respond to here, just one you might consider for yourself.

I can understand your postion about the angry God who punishes and also because of it looking for the gentle God who forgives, do you think you'll ever find a God who lives up to your expectations of what God should be like? I mean do you think you'll ever find a God that lives up to the image you have in your mind of what God should be like to really be God?

The reason I ask that question is because very often people church search to locate the nearest doctrine to what they have in mind their God would be like in an awesome world. I am certainly not making accusations here but speaking from personal experience and from the experineces of those I have met along the way. It is a very common thing among men to search for the least offensive doctrine or church that you feel willing to make some compromises to in the hopes to find the thing you are searching for. I have found and others as well that God is neither the hate you going to burn you in hell if you don't stack up nor the sit in the clouds and play a harp pie in the sky God which are both images of God taught to people by the various religions and denominations of the world. He is much more real than either of those two.

If this subject matter brings you to anger or resentment or any other painful emotion we can leave it off and have it another day or never again. I speak all things from my heart and truly respect those who do the same. It is not a naturally occuring event for people to take stock of themselves and THEN display it among others. Most will only do that thing with close people whom they trust. The problem is that very often we have trusted our elders or ministers or our christian friends and been betrayed.

[cman]

Hi cattcar9,

It is not a naturally occuring event for people to take stock of themselves and THEN display it among others. Most will only do that thing with close people whom they trust.

This is what I believe to be the very thing and most important naturally occurring event and events that should be taking place in more then one medium. Be it face to face, internet communications, preferably live chat or talk programs, and other mediums available on the net. As well as phone converstations.

These things are severely lacking in our lives and one of the greatest inhibitors of expanding our thinking as a group and within ourselves. Not that we should be forced to change a thing in our minds, but that we, and I mean WE are a very important ingredient in MAGNIFING God.

Cause the more open hearts there are, the more our God can be seen. And even if there is no belief in God what can be seen and WILL be seen will be profitable. Whether it strikes a positive or negative note in us. Or a sound we would never have heard without opening up honestly in some way to each other.

----------

And these comments in this post does not negate anything you said, but rather a different perspective and avenue of not being alone, and furthering that which we or an individual would like to progress in or just be with honest people who will not be there to argue but contribute.

These things are on my mind and further enhanced by a recent phone call.

I'm telling you we need each other in many ways.

No matter what one believes or thinks.

We need to be able to speak and be heard.

And we need to be able to listen and consider.

It happens with many things, can we do more.

I think so, and it would help in many ways we haven't even seen yet.

[waysider]

catcar9

The Way was a cult.

It was not a religion in the same sense as Catholicism or Methodist or Lutheran, etc.

Many, but not all of us, lived a lifestyle that was dictated to us.

The people doing the "dictating" did not always have our best interests at heart.

If you are a Methodist or a Catholic or some other religion, you go to church, you possibly participate in church activities, you have a set of doctrines that you try to pattern your life after.

But, for the most part, you have freedom to live your life as you choose, within reason.

In a cult, it does not work that way.

The leaders tell you how to talk, how to smile, how to dress, what jobs you can and can't accept.

They told people when they could get pregnant and when they could not, or worse, when they should terminate their pregnancies because they would detract from the amount of commitment they could devote to the group.

You can only marry within the group.

For that matter, you can only date people in the group.

Some of the programs required a full accounting of every minute of the individuals day(in writing.)

You were not permitted to question leadership or discuss concerns with other members.

You weren't supposed to even privately think about discrepancies you saw because that could lead to your personal downfall in a manner similar to the downfall of Eve as she considered what the serpent said.

Bear in mind that I'm actually minimizing some of these things.

That is why this is not about something you expect to see in all religions.

When I left, I did not feel like I had left God but I felt like I had disappointed Him by leaving what I thought was the one true household.

My problem was never with God, per se, it was with an organization that functioned as a cult.

I believe it is the idea of associating with an organization that repulses many people, not the idea of having a relationship with God or Jesus Christ.

Many people here will tell you they now feel a freedom to know God that they were never able to while their thinking was prescribed by the cult.

In a nutshell, the scripted lifestyle we were required to live probably had a much larger impact than any one particular doctrine.

[cman]

A good way to put it waysider.

Though the reasons and feelings of leaving vary a bit among us.

Very good explanation of what 'the way' is and was.

Though I'm sure there are plenty like it.

Seems cattcar9 can see a bit of what she went through, seeing us here.

Controlling religions or cults are not uncommon. Though twi took it very far.

[T-Bone]

....We don't believe because we want to believe we believe because God causes us to believe (draws us to the Son and writes it in us). There was a man who expressed that very thing in the new testament, he said to Christ...i believe, Lord HELP my unbelief. He recognized his own will and desire to believe and confessed that he did infact beleive, and in the same breath knew he did not and could not except Christ give him his belief. And if Christ give you your belief and strenghten it no man or doubt of your own will take it from you.

If you could consider the truth of the new covenant that the Lord speaks of to the prophets that I quoted in this writing it might bring you some peace knowing you can do nothing apart from God and you are his workmanship and any man you judges you as to the right or wrong of your actions only judges another mans servant, namely God's servant the Christ.

I hope my writing brings some peace or understanding but if it does not, that's ok, we can only see and hear and understand what God wills us to at any particular time and I have no stake in the matter as to who will or won't, it doesn't really matter to me personally, because I know God does all things! ...

Hi Cattcar9 and excuse my bad manners – I forgot to welcome you to Grease Spot.

As far as your response to my post - I don't mean to sound critical but maybe the doctrinal forum would be a better place for this stuff - where you could elaborate more on how you draw certain inferences from Scripture. Anyway – I'm a bit confused over your assertions – and you've failed to convince me from Scripture or logic that God does all things and that we believe because He causes us to believe…See, there's two ideas for threads in doctrinal right there…Have fun at Grease Spot – great people here – but I warn ya – folks will take you to task on the details of just about anything!

[Bramble]

Hello Bramble,

I'm not sure what your are asking with the "how does free will fit into this" question. Fit into what? And what do you mean by free will?

Free will--decisions we make, actions we take, beliefs we choose to hold. If God determines everything, do we really have free will?

Also it's wonderful that you know what the intent of your mind was when you began considering TWI fellowship. I'd like to ask you if you found what your intent was at the time, and if not has your intent now changed?

The Way was a cult. It used the 'sugar' to get us in...the actual lifestyle had very little to do with A Great Big Wonderful God or even a Sovreign God, and much to do with conforming and obeying leadership in my experience. Instead of God doing the punishing, we got infested with devil spirits if we strayed from the TRUTH.

I'd also like to ask a question but I fear that the very quetion itself will be offensive to you or possibly some here, having said that I'd like to state I'm going to ask it, but please accept that my reason for asking is not to offend it is a honest question that you don't even have to respond to here, just one you might consider for yourself.

I can understand your postion about the angry God who punishes and also because of it looking for the gentle God who forgives, do you think you'll ever find a God who lives up to your expectations of what God should be like? I mean do you think you'll ever find a God that lives up to the image you have in your mind of what God should be like to really be God?

I quit 'church hopping' after the first couple of years out. As far as finding a God that lives up to my image...my image has changed over time, as have I. I am no longer a young girl going to a Jesus Freak meeting with a bunch of enthusiastic youth. My interests in religion at the time of my earliest involvement with TWI were my interets as a young woman, nearly thirty years ago. I've changed and am content with my current beliefs, which make real sense to me. And I feel free to change them at anytime if something else makes more sense. I am not Christian.

The reason I ask that question is because very often people church search to locate the nearest doctrine to what they have in mind their God would be like in an awesome world. I am certainly not making accusations here but speaking from personal experience and from the experineces of those I have met along the way. It is a very common thing among men to search for the least offensive doctrine or church that you feel willing to make some compromises to in the hopes to find the thing you are searching for. I have found and others as well that God is neither the hate you going to burn you in hell if you don't stack up nor the sit in the clouds and play a harp pie in the sky God which are both images of God taught to people by the various religions and denominations of the world. He is much more real than either of those two.

I don't think there is anything wrong with church searching/ faith searching, exploring for something that seems right to you.

If this subject matter brings you to anger or resentment or any other painful emotion we can leave it off and have it another day or never again. I speak all things from my heart and truly respect those who do the same. It is not a naturally occuring event for people to take stock of themselves and THEN display it among others. Most will only do that thing with close people whom they trust. The problem is that very often we have trusted our elders or ministers or our christian friends and been betrayed.

The subject matter does not offend me or bring me to anger and resentment. The TWI I experienced offends me! I have no interest in being witnessed to and accepting someone elses' doctrinal view of their God.

I actually posted to try to give you a base of understanding of what type of doctrine/experience many came out of here at GSC. Now that the members of this forum are out of TWI, doctrinal beliefs vary widely.

[WordWolf]

(snip)

I'd like to ask does this have to be a "christian" site for me to speak of God here? I mean if I read betweens the lines it sounds like to me (and I could hear this wrong) you don't want me to focus on God and how this all relates to him. Or maybe it's "I've had enough of god for a while" or something to that effect. Or maybe you think I have thoughts that people want to hear or not hear christain things here. I'm not sure what you mean by this isn't a christain site, do you want me to be quiet because I sound christian? Acutally I don't even know what christain sounds like really.

You started with a legitimate question- do I need this to be a Christian site to post about God at all?

The answer is "No." You may post on whatever you wish, within the limits of good taste and

US law.

Having posted it, however, anyone is free to respond as their conscience dictates.

If you post something claiming the Bible is true, you'll get agreements on a Christian site.

If you post something claiming the Bible is true, your welcome won't be so warm, say on an

automobile fan- site.

The GSC has people with different perspectives, opinions and positions.

Just because I am a Christian, just because I read the Bible, has no bearing on what the rest

of the posters do. If a poster posts something, and I reply with some response straight from

the Bible, they're free to say they don't consider that correct, and consider it wrong.

If this was a Christian site, that would be a lot less likely.

If you come out with "and we know The Truth is that which God told us in His Word, that..."

expect you've just turned off most of the audience for several reasons.

1) the Non-Christians have just seen that and concluded your answer will not apply to them.

2) The Christians will see you did that in a forum that is dedicated to open discussion, but declared

the non-Christians are all wrong with that statement,

and concluded you either can't behave well in that environment, or can't respect the freedom

to DISagree which is part of messageboards like this.

Those whom you didn't turn off, they have their own agendas, and I'd trust them least of all.

It's really not that hard once you sit and think about it.

I'm not here trying to indoctrinate anyone or get you to go to a church or place do's an don't upon anyone or make judgments about if your right or wrong. I'm relaying experienced and wisdoms that came from them and from who the wisdom came. I see alot of pain and hurt and anger and feelings of betrayal here and I can idenify with all that and some and my words are for encouragement and comfort and considerations in the ways of a peaceful mind. But if what I say is unwelcome I can move on with no hard feelings just say the word and I'll be moving on.

If your ONLY method of communication is "And the Bible says...", then you're going to find

it hard to communicate in a polite fashion anywhere except the Doctrinal forum, and should

confine your posts to there, where such is acceptable in discussion-at least, for THAT

discussion.

Paul became all things to all men, so that by some means he could save some.

If you can only be one thing, that's going to limit your usefulness to God in this board.

But if I stay I'd like some sense of respectful conversations and by respectful I mean that it is acknowledged what my aforementioned intent is and nothing else, no labels, christain or otherwise. Since you don't know of me let me give you some things about me. I don't make assumptions like the first person who responsed to me said, I don't make judgments like you are used to in the religious world, I don't have intents other than to write whatever is given me to write at the moment, I don't even know how what I write is used, accpeted, or otherwise and that is PERFECTLY fine with me.

As your brother in Christ, and as a poster here, I would strongly recommend that you LEARN.

When you post, you're not responsible for how the individual poster takes it.

A perfectly innocently-phrased post can trigger a VERY painful memory from someone, and it's possible

they can lash out-wrongly- because of it.

HOWEVER, you are responsible for the message your post conveys. If there is a statement there,

you're responsible for the statement. ("God is in control, no matter what.")

If there's an implication there, you're responsible for the implication.

("Christians who don't want me to answer everything with verses are ashamed to be Christians.")

And so on. What you say, and how you say it, are your responsibility.

Therefore, remember that if you want your posts read and taken seriously like our posts,

you will need to take YOUR OWN posts seriously.

Think before you type, think before you hit "reply." Sometimes the smartest thing to do is to delete

the message before sending it, or wait 24 hours before replying- especially since you might not

WANT to reply, or might want to completely change the message a day later.

Having said that, if it becomes apparent that what I say is burdesome or offensive to the person, I will politely not continue the conversation. I just happen to know that this world is not some random mess that God comes behind with a mop to clean up once it's all gone so very wrong. I believe and know God created the lemon that lemonaid is made from. I also know if what I say is offensive I can keep my faith and beliefs to myself happily.

I only began to write here because of the thread where someone asked what do they other people think of us, do they think were are (fill in the blank) YOu all have gone through what I and others have gone through, the exact same thing, it's common among ALL religions. One doesn't need to be worse than the other. All men go through feelngs of betrayal and anger and disilussionment, and fearfulness to leave, And what they do after is also the same, some search for a new church to replace the old, some look to God alone, and some turn away from anything that even sounds religious. It's all common all over the world in all faiths. Though what else is commone is most say ...to a precieved outsider (not a member of their particular religion or church) you just can't understand the depth of this thing and even if they don't say it they think it....because THAT TOOO is common among all religions.

Thanks so much for allowing me in your group for the brief time I was here!

I can appreciate and respect your goals, but I recommend you consider some changes to

how you're approaching them. If you're going to be effective-and I don't think that's a bad idea-

then this would be prudent. Even the people who disagree with you would prefer you approach

tactfully and tastefully. You will get more accord and agreement. You might even change some

minds, make some "converts."

[WordWolf]

Hi Cattcar9 and excuse my bad manners – I forgot to welcome you to Grease Spot.

As far as your response to my post - I don't mean to sound critical but maybe the doctrinal forum would be a better place for this stuff - where you could elaborate more on how you draw certain inferences from Scripture. Anyway – I'm a bit confused over your assertions – and you've failed to convince me from Scripture or logic that God does all things and that we believe because He causes us to believe…See, there's two ideas for threads in doctrinal right there…Have fun at Grease Spot – great people here – but I warn ya – folks will take you to task on the details of just about anything!

That's two of us recommending the Doctrinal forum already...

[cman]

The moderators are free to move this thread as they choose.

It is not my problem or cattcar9's problem.

If anyone has a problem with it, take it up with the moderators.

[cman]

And do you not know what the bible says?

Does it need a word for word explanation?

Or perhaps a 'this is what this section's saying' speech.

Why can you not hear the words of another and hear the word in you at the same time.

Do you require proof of statements from the Bible or the Spirit within?

Something about where you baptized by the works of the flesh or spirit.

You want scripture? And the works of it?

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[WordWolf]

The moderators are free to move this thread as they choose.

It is not my problem or cattcar9's problem.

If anyone has a problem with it, take it up with the moderators.

It also has nothing to do with either recommendation concerning the Doctrinal forum.

[cman]

Then what are you saying WordWolf.

Are you asking for chapter and verse.

Are you saying to put 'doctrinal' comments in the doctrinal section.

Can a person speak the word without having a required proof?

Even if it isn't the word, isn't one allowed to speak freely?

The bible itself makes claims.

Yet they are not sought out, as well as the words of many.

Seeking for truth in them and that takes a change of perspective.

On the part of the hearer as well as the speaker in all matters.

The Way's long reach even effects us in dealing with new sight.

The Way's way did not work in the way, it will never work.

Going by what is seen instead of that which is not seen.

If we seek out the unseen, which is what we must do,

we have to turn our sight a different direction then it now faces.

Words are not heard because they are not seen.

Not looked into from outside of ourselves, to receive an idea and ideas.

To see what another sees is a gift of God.

But only the outward appearance is dealt with.

Instead of the heart.

The blinders seem to be still on tight.

How is it that anyone heard the word of the Spirit of God.

Before the damn bible?

[Bluzeman]

And uh, why are you trying to pick a fight where there isn't one?

Rick

[cman]

I am not doing that Bluzeman.

Is that what you want.

Perhaps I read the posts wrong.

I Don't Know.

That is why we communicate.

I don't mind being corrected and seeing the heart of the matter.

I spoke what I saw, right or wrong.

I've been both.

[Bluzeman]

It just sounded like you were trying to pick a fight. If I"m wrong, then sorry. But it sounded that way.

No one is trying to tell anyone else where they can or can't post. At least, I didn't read it that way. Nothing wrong with suggesting that if someone wants to discuss doctrine, that they take it to the doctrinal forum.

Rick

[cman]

Ok, We are cool i hope.