"I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry."
"But not too busy to pay attention to all the "abusive Way Corpse" as you often put it."
I only 'paid attention' to the ones that either: got into my face, or that got in my way.
I rarely stepped a single foot out of my path to interface with a corpse. Fortunately most times, it took long drives to go into some area to even find a corpse grad. Just like most other 'Joe Beleiver' I was rarely in an area that included any corpse, so most of the time to find one, I would had to travel to a Limb office. When I went into a Limb Office, or bookstore, I dont think that I ever did it with the desire to confront a Corpse-nazi, it was to do the work of the ministry, to minister to others. Had there been anyone else in a Limb Office, I would have greatly prefered dealing with them instead.
Annual Limb 'Corpse-recruitment' Meetings, or arranging to get PFAL tapes and flip-charts to begin another class; where generally the only times that I had to interface with them.
I imagine that if I had been 'blessed' to be in some area, that actually had corpse-leadership assigned to it, then I might well have had occasion to have spent more time with them, but alas I was only an average Joe Beleiver.
I assure you that I have learned ALOT while here on Greasespot. I never interfaced with even 1% of ALL the abusive Corpse. From what I have read here, there were hundreds of really abusive ones out there. I doubt whether I have ever met 100 corpse-nazi, in my entire time in The Way.
All that being said, there was a time when I did have 2 corpse-couples assigned to my twig, they were both on probation and not allowed to be Twig Coordinators. They were 'under' me, in my twig, for a few months. One couple had great hearts for helping people and were really focused on doing that, which is why they were booted. The second couple major ring-knockers and would never give anyone a chance to forget that they were wonderful Way-Corpse, they were booted because the husband was an enlisted sailor and had to move each time he was re-stationed by the Navy [for refusing to go where The Way dictated they were booted].
"so everybody else wasn't, Galen?? you a mind-reader?? you all-knowing, like God?? what is the point of your smart crack, then??"
Smart crack? hmm.
No, I am not a mind-reader, I dont think that I ever said such.
Not all-knowing, either, but then again, I did not so I was, thank you.
To say whether one person was better at hiding things than another person, I would not know. If you desire this to be smart-cracking then fine. IT still does not change the facts that most Joe Beleivers never met either VPW or LCM, and as such neither 'hid' anythign from the public.
In the vien that how do you hide somehting from somene you will never meet?
My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies.
I am not sure what context this has with whether one guy could hide things better than another guy, both of which I have neve met. And dont really care which of them could hide things better.
We were in a Ministry to help people, not suck up to some man.
I assure you that I have learned ALOT while here on Greasespot. I never interfaced with even 1% of ALL the abusive Corpse. From what I have read here, there were hundreds of really abusive ones out there. I doubt whether I have ever met 100 corpse-nazi, in my entire time in The Way.
Galen......hmmmmm,
Of the 3,200 corps.....and you've "read here there were hundreds"......say 640 ??
Hypothetically, in following a ratio...... then 20% of the corps were "corps-nazis"
Then 80% of the corps were NOT "corps-nazis" ;)-->
And, if you "never interfaced" with even 1%..... then 6 corps people "got in your face" ??
So, tell us again.....why your message of corps-bashing is repeated over and over??? You paint about 2,560 people with the same brush with such generalized statements???
I have asked Galen the same question before...he has apologized in the past.
Galen, your smart crack appeared to me to be that nobody else was ministering quite like you were...and I would say FAR more folks met vp and lcm then you will ever know..sorry, you were not there, I and many others, were...
I was not always a corps a$$hole as you undoubtedly view me to be by the words out of your own mouth...I was just a JB for over 4 years before I went in the kork.
""My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies."" as for all your help you have provided, been there, done that, prior to the kork, in the kork, post-grad kork and for the last 17+ years since I was stripped of kork status by lcm for not signing his loyalty oath, I STILL do all the things you mention, and more, free of charge as always. Stop by for dinner any time you are in town, Galen. .. Seriously..
The question "Does the end justify the means" does not really apply to twi. Their means were corrupt and their ends were corrupt. Ye shall know them by their fruit...
Does the end (we heard "The Word," got born again, got eternal life, etc.) justify the means (sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse)?
No. Eternal life is a hope, not a reality.
Mike's take: Does the end (the accuracy of God's Word was made known) justify the means (sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse)?
Absolutely not. Why should I care one rat's patootie that I now "know" that four were crucified, if people had to suffer for it? People are the purpose for the book. The book is not more important. That is the biggest lie TWI sold, IMHO.
Minutiae -- people. Minutiae -- people. No contest.
I think there is a verse in the bible somewhere that says something to the effect that...can a tree bring forth good fruit and evil; can a spring give water sweet and bitter...and by their fruit you shall know them.
Sure we gained a lot of knowledge in twi, how to word games (oh i mean studies)and lot of other things that were not taught since the first century, although some of them were plaigerized (oh i mean borrowed) from others.
Perhaps the question we should pose to ourselves goes something like this...Is it knowledge that brings us closer to God? Seems like another verse comes to mind...something about knowledge puffing someone up. Oh yeah, God resists puffers...(no offense meant to my smoking friends in the GSC chatroom.)
Yes, we learned about faith (believing), how to operate speaking in tongues and other manifestations even to understand mysteries...the great mystery even. But do those things matter a whit to God if we fail to love? I think there is another verse in the book somewhere that says if I don't have love, all of the speaking in tongues, believing, knowledge, ABS'ing doesn't amount to much...hmmm, nothing even. Could it be that is where twi as an organization and us as way zealots missed the boat? Selah.
If it is by their fruit we are suppose to know them...look around this place. Look at your own life and the lives around you...then tell me if the ends justify the means?
Did some good and godly things happen while we were in twi? Surely, they did happen...usually when love was in operation. Was twi an integral part of our journey with God? I would say that it probably was a part of the journey. We learned a great deal about God. Perhaps the next part of the journey for us is to experience Him for Who He really is...Love.
As I wrote on another thread, you are always going to be an outsider looking in. You will never really understand the insider perspective. Whatever....
Think about this. You would never have your precious PFAL if it weren't for the way corps. ;)-->
"As I wrote on another thread, you are always going to be an outsider looking in. You will never really understand the insider perspective. Whatever...."
This is possible.
I do understand that everyone here keeps saying that while you were 'in' you all tried to help and to be godly.
Fine, no doubt you did.
So why was it that from: nation to nation, state to state, that I traveled, that so many of us traveled, the blight to ministering to people was a single group of people.
Spiting in a man's face, screaming, ordering divorces, abortions, ordering us NOT to attend to our sick, ordering us NOT to run PFAL classes even after possible students have signed-up and paid. . . .
Not just one Branch Coord, not just one Limb Coord, Just from my own experiences, I speak. From nation to nation, state to state, coast to coast, I have traveled.
The 'good' freindly helpful trusting godly loving WC grads that I have met face-to-face in my life were each on probation, or M/A'ed.
Obviously you say that so were you, so obviously you were.
Obviously I have spoken in err.
I speak from my experiences, from what I have seen and heard and from when I have been physically assaulted by WC grads. from when I have been mal-ligned and booted from fellowship.
I dont mean, I dont intend to be insulting to you. But at the same time, how do I reconcile my experiences with what you are saying? I dont know.
When I talk to old friends, they dont wnat to speak about TWI anymore. They dont mind the idea of fellowship, or biblestudies, or prayer, they dont want any old WC to be around. Why do so few Ex-Way-Fers come here? It brings up to many old and bad memorys, memorys of people that hurt them. I am not talking about VPW or LCM, who ever met them? Just talking about WC Twig-Co's [after they booted the Joe Beleivers from those positions], and Branch-Co's and Limb-Co's. You know who I mean the 'leadership'.
Yes Ex, I will never 'understand'.
"Think about this. You would never have your precious PFAL if it weren't for the way corps."
Why?
I dont follow this statement. Do you mean it was film with the assistance of WC? possibly. But wasn't he teaching the class even before the WC program began?
Think about it. Yeah, VP filmed the class before he started the way corps, but only a handful of church people in Ohio and maybe a couple of other innocent pedestrians, saw it.
The way corps was the marketing vehicle for PFAL, along with the WOW program.
VP could only be in one place at one time. and only a couple of other people could be "trusted" to run classes, til the way corps came along.
That's how "the class" became so widely available, galen. That and the WOW program.
That's also why a certain poster's tirade about "mastering PFAL" is such a joke. Anybody who was in the corps practically had the whole thing memorized, bad jokes included. ;)--> Not just memorized, but permanently tatooed in our brains forevermore.
I knew both vpw and lcm from way back to the early 70's up til we left in 1995 ~~~~~~~~B.F.D. AND GOT HURT BY BOTH OF THEM. so to this question I also say NO NO NO
Anyone got anything against a straight answer around this joint?
There's enough food on the menu; we don't have to eat each other for lunch.
I hear that if you bite, you have to be careful not to consume each other. Makes sense to me.
What's with the skating and dancing and jabbing anyway? Is this business of taking adversarial positions a means to an end? What possible end can justify such a mean means? What profit obfuscation?
Apparently all sides figure the (each's) end justifies his/her means. Then there is no need for further discussion on this thread. Everyone agrees; isn't that nice? The end does justify the means.
Or has the pursuit of knowledge been reduced to the quest for power because we've opted for plitical advocacy over the search for truth as per Alston Chase's warning? Isn't that what happened in TWI?
Galatians 5:14 Â For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 Â But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
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nandon
DOES THE END JUSTIFY THE MEANS????
depends how much money we're talking about
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Galen
Oakspear:
"I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry."
"But not too busy to pay attention to all the "abusive Way Corpse" as you often put it."
I only 'paid attention' to the ones that either: got into my face, or that got in my way.
I rarely stepped a single foot out of my path to interface with a corpse. Fortunately most times, it took long drives to go into some area to even find a corpse grad. Just like most other 'Joe Beleiver' I was rarely in an area that included any corpse, so most of the time to find one, I would had to travel to a Limb office. When I went into a Limb Office, or bookstore, I dont think that I ever did it with the desire to confront a Corpse-nazi, it was to do the work of the ministry, to minister to others. Had there been anyone else in a Limb Office, I would have greatly prefered dealing with them instead.
Annual Limb 'Corpse-recruitment' Meetings, or arranging to get PFAL tapes and flip-charts to begin another class; where generally the only times that I had to interface with them.
I imagine that if I had been 'blessed' to be in some area, that actually had corpse-leadership assigned to it, then I might well have had occasion to have spent more time with them, but alas I was only an average Joe Beleiver.
I assure you that I have learned ALOT while here on Greasespot. I never interfaced with even 1% of ALL the abusive Corpse. From what I have read here, there were hundreds of really abusive ones out there. I doubt whether I have ever met 100 corpse-nazi, in my entire time in The Way.
All that being said, there was a time when I did have 2 corpse-couples assigned to my twig, they were both on probation and not allowed to be Twig Coordinators. They were 'under' me, in my twig, for a few months. One couple had great hearts for helping people and were really focused on doing that, which is why they were booted. The second couple major ring-knockers and would never give anyone a chance to forget that they were wonderful Way-Corpse, they were booted because the husband was an enlisted sailor and had to move each time he was re-stationed by the Navy [for refusing to go where The Way dictated they were booted].
:-)
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Galen
alfakat:
"so everybody else wasn't, Galen?? you a mind-reader?? you all-knowing, like God?? what is the point of your smart crack, then??"
Smart crack? hmm.
No, I am not a mind-reader, I dont think that I ever said such.
Not all-knowing, either, but then again, I did not so I was, thank you.
To say whether one person was better at hiding things than another person, I would not know. If you desire this to be smart-cracking then fine. IT still does not change the facts that most Joe Beleivers never met either VPW or LCM, and as such neither 'hid' anythign from the public.
In the vien that how do you hide somehting from somene you will never meet?
My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies.
I am not sure what context this has with whether one guy could hide things better than another guy, both of which I have neve met. And dont really care which of them could hide things better.
We were in a Ministry to help people, not suck up to some man.
:-)
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skyrider
Galen......hmmmmm,
Of the 3,200 corps.....and you've "read here there were hundreds"......say 640 ??
Hypothetically, in following a ratio...... then 20% of the corps were "corps-nazis"
Then 80% of the corps were NOT "corps-nazis"
;)-->
And, if you "never interfaced" with even 1%..... then 6 corps people "got in your face" ??
So, tell us again.....why your message of corps-bashing is repeated over and over??? You paint about 2,560 people with the same brush with such generalized statements???
???????????
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alfakat
I have asked Galen the same question before...he has apologized in the past.
Galen, your smart crack appeared to me to be that nobody else was ministering quite like you were...and I would say FAR more folks met vp and lcm then you will ever know..sorry, you were not there, I and many others, were...
I was not always a corps a$$hole as you undoubtedly view me to be by the words out of your own mouth...I was just a JB for over 4 years before I went in the kork.
""My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies."" as for all your help you have provided, been there, done that, prior to the kork, in the kork, post-grad kork and for the last 17+ years since I was stripped of kork status by lcm for not signing his loyalty oath, I STILL do all the things you mention, and more, free of charge as always. Stop by for dinner any time you are in town, Galen. .. Seriously..
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
shazdancer.. where are do you live in maine? i am in rumford.. sorry to ask this here but don't know where to ask it
dennis arsenault
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Cindy!
Does the End Justify the Means?
NO
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DaddyHoundog
well that might depnd on who we ask...
Kierkegaard - No
Descartes - No
Plato - possibly - see cave allegory
Buddha - most definatley no
Freud - well if you have to ask you must have a thing for your mother (just kidding)
Jesus Christ - NO
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GrouchoMarxJr
The question "Does the end justify the means" does not really apply to twi. Their means were corrupt and their ends were corrupt. Ye shall know them by their fruit...
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shazdancer
Does the end (we heard "The Word," got born again, got eternal life, etc.) justify the means (sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse)?
No. Eternal life is a hope, not a reality.
Mike's take: Does the end (the accuracy of God's Word was made known) justify the means (sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse)?
Absolutely not. Why should I care one rat's patootie that I now "know" that four were crucified, if people had to suffer for it? People are the purpose for the book. The book is not more important. That is the biggest lie TWI sold, IMHO.
Minutiae -- people. Minutiae -- people. No contest.
Regards,
Shaz
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oenophile
I think there is a verse in the bible somewhere that says something to the effect that...can a tree bring forth good fruit and evil; can a spring give water sweet and bitter...and by their fruit you shall know them.
Sure we gained a lot of knowledge in twi, how to word games (oh i mean studies)and lot of other things that were not taught since the first century, although some of them were plaigerized (oh i mean borrowed) from others.
Perhaps the question we should pose to ourselves goes something like this...Is it knowledge that brings us closer to God? Seems like another verse comes to mind...something about knowledge puffing someone up. Oh yeah, God resists puffers...(no offense meant to my smoking friends in the GSC chatroom.)
Yes, we learned about faith (believing), how to operate speaking in tongues and other manifestations even to understand mysteries...the great mystery even. But do those things matter a whit to God if we fail to love? I think there is another verse in the book somewhere that says if I don't have love, all of the speaking in tongues, believing, knowledge, ABS'ing doesn't amount to much...hmmm, nothing even. Could it be that is where twi as an organization and us as way zealots missed the boat? Selah.
If it is by their fruit we are suppose to know them...look around this place. Look at your own life and the lives around you...then tell me if the ends justify the means?
Did some good and godly things happen while we were in twi? Surely, they did happen...usually when love was in operation. Was twi an integral part of our journey with God? I would say that it probably was a part of the journey. We learned a great deal about God. Perhaps the next part of the journey for us is to experience Him for Who He really is...Love.
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Cindy!
That was beautiful, oeno!!!!! And I salute you!
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ex10
Galen
As I wrote on another thread, you are always going to be an outsider looking in. You will never really understand the insider perspective. Whatever....
Think about this. You would never have your precious PFAL if it weren't for the way corps.
;)-->
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Galen
ex10:
"As I wrote on another thread, you are always going to be an outsider looking in. You will never really understand the insider perspective. Whatever...."
This is possible.
I do understand that everyone here keeps saying that while you were 'in' you all tried to help and to be godly.
Fine, no doubt you did.
So why was it that from: nation to nation, state to state, that I traveled, that so many of us traveled, the blight to ministering to people was a single group of people.
Spiting in a man's face, screaming, ordering divorces, abortions, ordering us NOT to attend to our sick, ordering us NOT to run PFAL classes even after possible students have signed-up and paid. . . .
Not just one Branch Coord, not just one Limb Coord, Just from my own experiences, I speak. From nation to nation, state to state, coast to coast, I have traveled.
The 'good' freindly helpful trusting godly loving WC grads that I have met face-to-face in my life were each on probation, or M/A'ed.
Obviously you say that so were you, so obviously you were.
Obviously I have spoken in err.
I speak from my experiences, from what I have seen and heard and from when I have been physically assaulted by WC grads. from when I have been mal-ligned and booted from fellowship.
I dont mean, I dont intend to be insulting to you. But at the same time, how do I reconcile my experiences with what you are saying? I dont know.
When I talk to old friends, they dont wnat to speak about TWI anymore. They dont mind the idea of fellowship, or biblestudies, or prayer, they dont want any old WC to be around. Why do so few Ex-Way-Fers come here? It brings up to many old and bad memorys, memorys of people that hurt them. I am not talking about VPW or LCM, who ever met them? Just talking about WC Twig-Co's [after they booted the Joe Beleivers from those positions], and Branch-Co's and Limb-Co's. You know who I mean the 'leadership'.
Yes Ex, I will never 'understand'.
"Think about this. You would never have your precious PFAL if it weren't for the way corps."
Why?
I dont follow this statement. Do you mean it was film with the assistance of WC? possibly. But wasn't he teaching the class even before the WC program began?
:-)
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ex10
Galen
Think about it. Yeah, VP filmed the class before he started the way corps, but only a handful of church people in Ohio and maybe a couple of other innocent pedestrians, saw it.
The way corps was the marketing vehicle for PFAL, along with the WOW program.
VP could only be in one place at one time. and only a couple of other people could be "trusted" to run classes, til the way corps came along.
That's how "the class" became so widely available, galen. That and the WOW program.
That's also why a certain poster's tirade about "mastering PFAL" is such a joke. Anybody who was in the corps practically had the whole thing memorized, bad jokes included.
;)--> Not just memorized, but permanently tatooed in our brains forevermore. 
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Tom
It depends on whether the mean is mean and whether someone's rear end is really getting justified by someone else's means or not.
No, really. God doesn't use people. Any means that means using people is unjustified to begin with. It is a tree that can only turn out bad fruit.
Good fruit will justify a good tree in the sense that it will prove the goodness that the tree had already. Only so can an end justify a means.
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wyteduv58
I knew both vpw and lcm from way back to the early 70's up til we left in 1995 ~~~~~~~~B.F.D. AND GOT HURT BY BOTH OF THEM. so to this question I also say NO NO NO
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oldiesman
This is why the good that was in twi was justified. Thanks Thomas.
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Belle
I've been perusing the Greasespot Gems thread lately and this quote from SongRemainsTheSame seems very apropo to this thread. Thank you, Song!
:D-->
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oldiesman
So what's your point?
We should renounce the Word we learned in twi, all because of Wierwille's sins?
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Oakspear
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oldiesman
Oh yes he should be worshipped continually.
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Belle
OM, are you equating vee pee with the word?
--> 
--> 
-->
And I didn't learn "the word" from vee pee. I attribute almost all I know from growing up
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Tom
Anyone got anything against a straight answer around this joint?
There's enough food on the menu; we don't have to eat each other for lunch.
I hear that if you bite, you have to be careful not to consume each other. Makes sense to me.
What's with the skating and dancing and jabbing anyway? Is this business of taking adversarial positions a means to an end? What possible end can justify such a mean means? What profit obfuscation?
Apparently all sides figure the (each's) end justifies his/her means. Then there is no need for further discussion on this thread. Everyone agrees; isn't that nice? The end does justify the means.
Or has the pursuit of knowledge been reduced to the quest for power because we've opted for plitical advocacy over the search for truth as per Alston Chase's warning? Isn't that what happened in TWI?
Galatians 5:14 Â For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 Â But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Tom
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