Here we go again..

[DontWorryBeHappy]

hiya ham!!...........i enjoyed those links!.............very interesting juxtaposition between christian professionals and pseudo-chrristian amateur wannabes!........if i were a parent or a student looking for a christian "outward bound" type of experience, or some kind of character building, development program, and i had a choice of the various programs as presented by their websites..........let's see...........which one would i choose???

it is so very obvious which sites are confidently and proudly run by trained professionals.........and.......then........there's s.o.w.e.r.s................ROTFL!!.........typical CFFM type of info........."if you have to ask questions, you're not what we're looking for!"............"answering questions is out of our comfort zone"..........maybe it's because they're so embarrassed about the answers they have to give?.........they do things according to a world alright..........the bizarro world!.........the world and word according to vic (v1p1 that is).......devotees to their father or grandfather in da werd........qualified because.......???....................ahem, qualified at all???

you know, as i scrolled through the various links provided on the link you gave ham, i was seriously hoping to find someone, at least one someone who was former l.e.a.d. staff or something......you know, someone who really has moved on and accomplished something of note in the "outdoor academy" world.......not a one.........interesting is'nt it?........they may all be too busy hiding their vic-roots beliefs and shady "word in business" backgrounds and beliefs.........i think you should send those links to the sowers farm........maybe they'll be inspired to improve their site........or, better yet, shamed into dismantling it!

thanks again for an interesting, thought provoking post ham...........you kwazy skwewwel you!...................peace.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[Ron G.]

I went to that "Christ in the Tetons" web site and it doesn't seem to have any "wayisms" in it and they are decidedly trinitarian.

Nevertheless, Andrew and I are set to go to Philmont next summer. It's a Boy Scout thing and has no affiliation with TWI or any of TWI's bastard children, just like us.

In order to help pay for all this stuff, however, I'd be more than willing to allow anyone to come to my place and pay me a couple grand for the priviledge of cutting and stacking firewood this summer, working in the garden, cleaning up, removing stumps etc. and sleeping down by the pond in your own tent or whatever.

I'm sure I could persuade Ham or somebody, if I offer them 50%, to come and teach the word like it hasn't been taught since the first century, as I'll be too busy sleeping, watching teevee and staying inside out of the heat.

Just a thought.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Ron G.

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Christ in the Tetons and Outward Bound are superior to Total Fitness Institute and Lead Academy, which in turn is even better that Sowers program(Way Corp re-imagined and not any better).

[now I see]

LEAD wasn't all it was cracked up to be either, when you start peeling back the layers, like so many other things associated with TWI,  it was pretty rotten underneath, it was destructive and hurt a lot of people at too great of a personal cost for some to ever make it a worthwhile endeavor.

There have been several threads here about LEAD before:

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...698&hl=lead

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...955&hl=lead

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...855&hl=lead

[Ham]

I wonder if they require one to hitchhike to the Tetons adventure..

take a ten dollar bill, and make damn sure you arrive there with it, and still have it when you get back home..

what's a few toes.. or worse. It's just the abundant life we're talking about ya know..

:unsure:

I asked that joker "who's qualified" for a few good reasons, I think.

The sad thing, I think they actually can rustle up a half dozen kids to play their little "survivor" game..

I wonder how much insurance they have..

[Ham]

I think if they are going to sow the same kind of harshness in their organization, or affiliates, it will rot them from the gut out.

[now I see]

They've been dealing harshly with people for years, they have no conscience, just like TWI they've been vilifying anyone who questions them and leaves, the "leadership" is never wrong, and the person is mocked, desparaged and maligned after they've left.  Guess it keeps things tidy, no loose ends or anything to explain or talk about, this group doesn't think they're doing anything wrong...

Just like TWI...

Edited March 31, 2008 by but now I see

[Ham]

I think the participants are being asked to compromise themselves, far more than any possible benefit garnered would justify.

What are those in charge willing to put on the table? Seems rather one-sided..

Without an established connection to a much larger organization, I would say they have little to offer. Or any grounds to recruit..

Where are they going to have these "leaders and workers" "go forth"?

I wonder if the "survivors" are guaranteed a position in an organization "somewhere"..

[Ham]

I wonder how the underlings are expected to address the one in charge..

"the wittle itty bitty boy of gawd for our day, time and hour.."

"the successor to his holiness"..

and nametags. Will they have a proclivity to an over excessive use of nametags?

Can't chop firewood without a name tag ya know..

[Ham]

Somehow, I can't see the world beating a path to a broken down farm in the Mississippi swamp..

especially with gas prices projected to go over four dollars a gallon, people struggling to maintain homes.. families.

A person very well may find that with a bachellor's in history, they are still basically unemployable.

The old guys apparently can't cut the mustard.. likely too old and worn out to take it out on the road.. but they probably savor the memory, of the days a little piece of the world beat a path to the huckster's door.

So what are they really doing, "training" "leaders"(?) and "workers"(??) to go forth, and shake down areas of concern, interest and "need"?

About the only place they MIGHT be able to harvest any kind of income or respect, would be places where people still revere the vicster's name..

"we agree on the WORD, don't we?"

"well then. Forget the kids, the seventy dollar tank of gas you need to go to work this week.. "gawd" says you owe ten percent, as a MINIMUM.. you won't get ANYTHING if you can't get your foot off the hose.."

"can't afford to heat the house? Maybe you aren't giving enough.. gawd can *bless* you. maybe you oughta try fifteen percent.."

That little teaching happens to reside in what the "young man" regards as his "heritage"..

[rhino]

Well I don't know these folks or the CFF policies .. or how loosely associated they are with this experiment in the woods ...

It looks like these "old guys" are already living there, at least part of the time ... or is it just something they do one weekend per month?

Perhaps they have already cut their mustard and are just looking for some part time retirement grooviness.

Still, the whole way corps 2 thing is odd ... someone must have a plan ... :unsure:

Does CFF (or these woodsy guys) push the ten percent tithe thingy? If so I wonder how they determined they are the ones to receive it. There must be a few people giving something to maintain some kind of organization ... and to feel there is a need for this way corps thing. Any ideas on how many are involved in this? I'm thinking there are several around Chicago that are maybe attached in some fashion.

I guess you haven't received that Way Corps 2 brochure yet .. giving all the details.

Edited April 6, 2008 by rhino

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Ham , just saw you on Hallmark's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, checking for bad nuts for Johnny Depp. Maybe not so off topic afterall.

[Ham]

Yep. That was me.. what can I say-

"It's a living"

[Ham]

Does CFF (or these woodsy guys) push the ten percent tithe thingy?

As far as cff, not the last I knew of. I believe cff's stance was that we should support those who "labor in the word".. no real heavy burdens laid on people.. but that's cff, or was cff The new thingy though, with vic extremism "pfal is our heritage".. where gramps is the kid's hero.. if they sow that kind of extremism into offshoots, I can see it coming..

I wonder how many of these "honors students" have anything more than a high school diploma..

[Ham]

I lost count of my questions.. I'll start on twenty three..

23. Can the "enrollees" have as much as a cell phone, to communicate with those in the outside world?

24. Will cell phones even WORK as far out in the boondocks as the the farm is where they will "reside"?

25. What about television? Cable TV? Satellite? Will they have access to what's "really" going on in the world, but only world events as the "master" "spiritually" interprets them?

26. why in the friggin *^&*@# aren't you back getting your master's degree..

27. Assignments upon graduation. Are they REQUIRED to be accepted? Or can a graduate just go their merry way, onto college, or into a profession?

or is all of this.. how the "system" failed the "founder".. "I got's mah degree, and it didn't do me a hill of beans.."

I have a pretty big void here.. I'd like something better to fill it with..

[rhino]

27. Assignments upon graduation. Are they REQUIRED to be accepted? Or can a graduate just go their merry way, onto college, or into a profession?

I missed that ... assignments? So after they graduate, what are they expected to make per year if they graduate in the top ten percent? $40,000/year?

After a year of training, surely they will at least expect a pay raise ...

Oh, maybe they get paid in infernal eternal rewards ...

I'm sure it will be in the brochure ... did you get your brochure yet Ham?

[Ham]

Nope, no brochure.

I don't think I'd get one even when they do have it done..

Another thought.. why don't the kids just join the army, or the marines.. or something..

the big difference- you make it through basic training and service, there are a few honest to God benefits.

The military actually has something to OFFER and individual- if one chooses to take advantage of it. There are time limits now, but a veteran has alll kinds of goverment assistance in regards to a college education.

You might not get rich at it, but they actually PAY you for your time in service.

A lot of people get some real job skills- where they can go into telecommunications, or construction, or lots of other trades after leaving the military. What are these kids going to do? Go door to door witnessing?

I still think they are teaching them how to live in poverty..

[Ham]

I really think they should add the podcast with one of the former trunk coordinators here to the curriculum.. required for those who run it, and those who volunteer..

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/...stees-1987.html

go ahead fellas.. click on the link, you won't get possessed or anything..

It's just a little story about a bunch of authoritarian, legalistic, demanding, insane "leadership", who basically ran amok unchecked.. especially so after they ran anybody out who was honest about what was going on.

Why, some of them just MIGHT be coming to "instruct" in your little program..

Edited April 21, 2008 by Ham

[Ham]

I wonder how many staffers hold to vic's doctrine, or held to it at one time, that sex is no different than putting a finger in one's ear.. or that cancer is a devil spirit.. or still believe that the vicster saved us from communist takeover in 76, then saved us again in 79..

It's really an honest question. "Are these people fruitcakes?"

Only think I can think.. people that went through that sausage mill, and consider the corps experience a huge success, such that it should be duplicated.. I question whether they came out of it with all of their marbles.. especially if they were involved in the 86 and on fiasco.

I wonder if they kept their old corps nametags to display in front of the fawning new followers..

[rhino]

I wonder how many staffers hold to vic's doctrine, or held to it at one time, that sex is no different than putting a finger in one's ear..

Well no one looks at me funny when i put my finger in my ear in public ... That sounds more like some kind of sixties rap ... but I think even the hippies considered sex more than casual contact.

I wonder if they kept their old corps nametags to display in front of the fawning new followers..

It maybe should be documented just how nuts all that stuff became ... expounding on some of what Ralph discussed. Letting people die in the dorm under the special care of dottie and whoever ... people under extreme duress seem to have gone over the edge. I suppose when you think you are responsible for keeping the US from being overtaken by debil spurts ... it might drive you close to the brink.

But some crossed over the brink and lived in some alternate universe, like gear and his two guns, or those holding Ralph "captive" with dobermans and armed "bless patrol". Who were they blessing anyway? It is hard for me to picture comic boy Mark Frontenac being willing to hold people captive, but there must have been some thugs there on security.

I suppose this new group will fix all that stuff, but as you noted, starting with some of the same format doesn't seem like much of a new beginning. Will there be guns at the MS camp?

[Ham]

makes me wonder.

Then the whole idea of "well, they don't talk about that anymore. Too negative, they just want to get on with life and *da word*.."

doesn't hold water, in my opinion.

I think If they REALLY REALLY just "moved on.."

They'd be connected, at least casually, in society..

They'd go for real education and credentials, build something really substantial, instead of building on another man's ruins, or illusion.

I wasn't as involved in the way as most of these folks, but when I left, reconnecting with family, society, pursuing a legitimate degree and career, was hard work. And I'm nowhere near a hundred percent yet. I may never be.

Maybe it's just too hard for a lot of them..

There aren't very many corners in the world where one can demand respect, because one's ancestor was the leader of a little known odd religious group.

[Ham]

It's almost like a group of "psychologically deficient" individuals who want to open a "spa"..

Personally, I may have a *mild* case of it.. and even with that, I wouldn't trust myself to run something like that..

[frank123lol]

You would be better than most people,you have 30 plus years of cult traing.

Keep the mog dream alive they say,we will not go quietly in the night..

Name recognition..Farm.. Come work with us,We will teach you how to work..

Hmm...Who taught them?To work I mean,After all they want to palm it off on a bunch of newbies?

[Ham]

Yep.. who taught them "how to work"..

even with "free" room and board.. I'd imagine it's not exactly Hilton quality accomodations..

millet and hot dogs three times a day.. who knows.. even with a slightly better menu, didn't they used to call something like that slavery?

Work to do, extreme "adventures" to go on.. like they say.. "work will set you free.."

[Ham]

I really think they have delusions of grandeur..

Do they REALLY think they are running a modern-day "school of the prophets"?

I really don't think these guys could "prophecy" their way out of a wet paper bag..