Another thought.. what product are those "going forth" going forth to sell? If it's patterned after the old corpse program.. they are going forth as salesmen, saleswomen, administrators..
what are they going to sell this time around? The words of v2p2? Old bootleg copies of pfal? Surely there is a plan of sorts, to make this thing self-propetuating..
even to be an "administrator".. in the real world, a college degree is just a beginning. Four years of study, let alone a years hazing at some recluses bizarro bible world hardly qualifies one to be any kind of administrator..
Then there is accountability. Are these "lucky" few bound by the salt covenant to "those who taught them da word"?
for one stinking year of "enjoying" the "privilege" of chopping the mini-mogster's firewood?
"improvements" rhino?.........and exactly what might those be??................peace.
Well, they had to shine things up a bit ... couldn't just precisely mirror the old TWI that they FINALLY left. The main thing is the money doesn't all go to the trunk. But given that the current leaders were largely part of some of the old guard "bloody" purges ... I wouldn't think they'd be fit to just strike up the band with a few cosmetic changes.
But yes they do seem still rather illusive or duplicitous on the new Way Corps thang. They apparently disavow any direct connection, yet link to it and they "trained" the new heir apparent of the family crown. And still no word on just what ministry the new crop of corps will be believing to provide material abundance for.
And it seems the new corps doesn't need sponsorship, they just have to give their lives. :unsure:
But to be clear, I don't think the new kinder gentler corps will be any better ... and anyone trying to fulfill vp's prohecies of "keeping da wuhrd alive" will live a life of delusion ... and those youngsters will enter their thirities with little to show for their twenties.
But with you and Ham on the case, perhaps this thang will abort on the vine ... before more harm is done.
even to be an "administrator".. in the real world, a college degree is just a beginning.
That's the beauty of living in wonderland ... the cult field is still a pretty wide open market ... no real worldly requirements apply ... just need to find some fresh meat that is as gullible as we were ... and with no internet connection.
Still ... sequels are usually a disappointment ...
especially if it is a sequel of a really really bad show to begin with..
since they aren't exactly forthcoming on staff and qualifications.. I have a few questions for those "in the know", maybe they could forward them to the appropriate people- note, they are not accusations.
1. As staff or leadership in the old ministry, did you abuse your position of authority, power of rendering summary judgment, and betray your trust between God and other believers?
2. As old leadership, were you aware of those who broke trust and condoned it, made excuses for perpetrators and covered for it?
3. What are you doing to keep the same abuses from happening again? Or do you hold to the myth of the mog, that he can do no wrong?
Apparently if one wants to get in the mog business, they'll put up a link for you..
I would like to see their requirements just a TAD higher. Like.. the linked website has to say who's running the thing.. who's on board, what the curriculum is.. who's teaching what..
it's fine that perhaps THEY (cff) know the who's and what's about the program, but what about anyone else? And what about the disclaimer? Is it.. "use at your own risk"?
Supposedly it's Cour*right's believer link page.. why then doesn't it stay on Cour*right's internet website?
The "sowers" seem to be going the way of der vey.. don't "owe" anybody any kind of explanation, or accountability, other than to themselves..
it's been what.. a couple of years since groundbreaking.. and their site leaves the outside world to merely guess about who's running it, their qualifications, their history.. if this is the will of gawd, you'd think they'd want to be found..
All of this secrecy leads me to think they are delusional, and that they actually think the lord told them to hole up in rural mississippi..
Skyrider's words on another thread seem to fit here.
The pyramid structure in twi.......and subsequently found in twi's offshoots......drives the
system of NO accountability in any sense of true doctrine and/or practice. The "man in charge" is always right.......even if he's wrong......and its his way or the highway.
in the old ministry, I don't think it REALLY was about what vic described with tears in the eyes, "building MEN and WOMEN..". It was about building an ORGANIZATION. People be damned..
And there is no accountability. The guy on top has power to "terminate the program at any time", "dismiss ANY participant" at any given moment, at his SOLE DISCRETION. And he is- NEVER WRONG. On any count..
I bet they "ordain" almost every single first graduate of the program..
Gosh, that website makes me shudder!! Re-listing the 5 principles:
1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.
2. Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.
3. Physical training making your body, the "vehicle" of communication of the Word, as vital as possible.
4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry.
5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest, and need.
When Jesus taught his followers, he said to go forth and Love God first, and your neighbor as yourself---period. He dismantled the worldy systems that raised up "representatives of God"---which is [once again] just the opposite of what man does in the name of God.
"Acquire and in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.."
Do they really think they can deliver on this one? Some of those guys likely were around practically until rosie's reign..
and didn't have a stinking CLUE of the real abuses going on behind the scenes.. starting from gramps, to loy..
where was their highly valued acquired in depth spiritual perception and awareness, then?
Can't they see that mog worship kinda clouds one's judgement? I don't think they can discern spirits out of a wet paper bag.. especially as long as they hold gramps in high regard.
I think all they are doing, is conditioning people to disregard that which is obvious, and seek out the arcane explanation.. the mini-mogster didn't get a ticket because he was speeding, no. It's debils out there, trying to break his concentration, so da greatness of der verd doesn't prevail..
so, in the old system, why did they prove to be ineffective as to rooting out the evil? Admittedly, some heroically tried.. even at great risk to themselves.
I think the overall ineffectiveness marks the system itself as flawed.. the basic tools needed to fix the system itself were lacking or non-existent.
You know....the whole system to me seems designed to complicate what should have been very very simple
Love God and Love your neighbor...when you do that...everything else seems to fall into place.
Those way corpes principles brought it all back...
I remember my twi mindset....take this class for all of the answeres..go wow to grow with God...take more classes to become mature spiritually...go corpes to learn how to serve God for a life time...follow these principles to grow...apply these keys to have greater understanding...obey leadership so as not to be stiff necked...tithe to have prosperity...witness it is your duty....
It was all down to formulas....master this, do that follow these instructions and you will arrive spiritually.
A + B = C
My decade plus in twi was wrought with such frustration ... knowing that in spite of applying every single rule for faith and practice, every instruction given for spiritual growth...prayer...tithing...study...abs...participation in every program possible...I knew that the spiritual *connection* just wasn`t there...I would apply EVERY thing I knew in order for God to preform as he was required....it was an immutable law...don`tcha know...and still was missing the mark.
I`m telling you, it took getting away all of that....to get humble and allow God to work ... getting rid of the ego of I believe this I have done that you are required to preform thus, mindset before I felt that connection and saw my spiritual life soar.
I think these guys with their programs actually lead people into the complications that will interfere with the simplicity of what is required for ones personal walk.
My Goodness, just look at the lives of the men who designed that program. Look at the viscious damage that they inflicted on people, all the while convinced that they were God`s elect, that they were in the center of God`s will.
Research, and prayer, and applications of principles and attention to details did not help these fellows to be men of the spirit. They hurt a lot of people...I am thinking that they missed the boat...and now a new generation it would seem has to learn their lessons the hard way.
I feel so bad for the participants...sigh what a waste.
Research, and prayer, and applications of principles and attention to details did not help these fellows to be men of the spirit. They hurt a lot of people...I am thinking that they missed the boat...and now a new generation it would seem has to learn their lessons the hard way.
some people say you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't see how people think they can set up some kind of paramilitary survivor program in the middle of the swamp, and BEAT spirituality into the volunteers. Submission and obedience, perhaps.. but "spirituality"?
The kid's probably had barely enough psychology courses to be dangerous..
"we were all part of a cult"...I think that says it all. I have recollections of doing bless patrol at Emporia while Vic and his motorcoach were visiting...watching a young lady enter the coach and then sometime later exit the coach and walk away...even though it was well after midnight, sexual hanky panky NEVER ENTERED MY MIND...afterall, he was the mog.
I can't find fault with Groucho for this. The corps supposedly signed on to receive training such that they could acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Instead, I think they got training which instilled mog worship and beat them down into a lifetime of bondage and servitude..
so how does this new group think they are going to do any better?
"any participant may be dismissed at any time.."
"the program may be cancelled at any time"
all at the whims or discretion of those charged(?) with oversight..
"those in charge" apparently are above guilt, wrongdoing or recrimination.
what if abuse occurs? does the victim find themself waking up on a bus with a headache, 700 miles away? And the rest of the enrollees find the person's life picked apart in some kind of spiritual analysis, as to why they got "possessed"?
will they be so well "trained" that they will disregard the evidence, seen through their own eyes, and buy the stories of how der mog is the greatest, and can do no wrong?
I still don't see how using the same methods will produce any different results..
and that is the REAL question I asked, personally. "What are you doing to keep the same thing from happening, AGAIN?" No answers of course.
Personally, I wouldn't keep someone whom I know who actually gives a damn in the dark.. you asked for help for this thing, didn't you? Prayed for "guidance"? For "wisdom" in running the thing?
Here it is.. don't like a little rough edge on it.. tough crap.
This may have been covered somewhere else, but I can't find it. I know this new program is being run by VP Wierwille II, the grandson of "Doc Vic". I'm just wondering, which of VPW's children is VP2 the child of?
same program. v2p2's running it, but he's not running it. It's his idea, but not really his idea.. it's run by a board.. pa's on board. Then I hear: it's not jr.'s program, it's really Mc*ullen's..
but then junior tells me he cooked it up..
and that's about all anybody who is not on the "board" knows..
or rather, that's all those on the "board" seem to care that anybody else should know..
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mstar1
Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hid
Ham
From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is
Tzaia
The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind
Ham
Another thought.. what product are those "going forth" going forth to sell? If it's patterned after the old corpse program.. they are going forth as salesmen, saleswomen, administrators..
what are they going to sell this time around? The words of v2p2? Old bootleg copies of pfal? Surely there is a plan of sorts, to make this thing self-propetuating..
even to be an "administrator".. in the real world, a college degree is just a beginning. Four years of study, let alone a years hazing at some recluses bizarro bible world hardly qualifies one to be any kind of administrator..
Then there is accountability. Are these "lucky" few bound by the salt covenant to "those who taught them da word"?
for one stinking year of "enjoying" the "privilege" of chopping the mini-mogster's firewood?
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rhino
Well, they had to shine things up a bit ... couldn't just precisely mirror the old TWI that they FINALLY left. The main thing is the money doesn't all go to the trunk. But given that the current leaders were largely part of some of the old guard "bloody" purges ... I wouldn't think they'd be fit to just strike up the band with a few cosmetic changes.
But yes they do seem still rather illusive or duplicitous on the new Way Corps thang. They apparently disavow any direct connection, yet link to it and they "trained" the new heir apparent of the family crown. And still no word on just what ministry the new crop of corps will be believing to provide material abundance for.
And it seems the new corps doesn't need sponsorship, they just have to give their lives. :unsure:
But to be clear, I don't think the new kinder gentler corps will be any better ... and anyone trying to fulfill vp's prohecies of "keeping da wuhrd alive" will live a life of delusion ... and those youngsters will enter their thirities with little to show for their twenties.
But with you and Ham on the case, perhaps this thang will abort on the vine ... before more harm is done.
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rhino
That's the beauty of living in wonderland ... the cult field is still a pretty wide open market ... no real worldly requirements apply ... just need to find some fresh meat that is as gullible as we were ... and with no internet connection.
Still ... sequels are usually a disappointment ...
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Ham
especially if it is a sequel of a really really bad show to begin with..
since they aren't exactly forthcoming on staff and qualifications.. I have a few questions for those "in the know", maybe they could forward them to the appropriate people- note, they are not accusations.
1. As staff or leadership in the old ministry, did you abuse your position of authority, power of rendering summary judgment, and betray your trust between God and other believers?
2. As old leadership, were you aware of those who broke trust and condoned it, made excuses for perpetrators and covered for it?
3. What are you doing to keep the same abuses from happening again? Or do you hold to the myth of the mog, that he can do no wrong?
Answer the questions to yourself if you wish.
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Mark Clarke
TWI = Teaching While Intoxicated.
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Mark Clarke
He was escorted off the grounds at gunpoint!
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now I see
Ham, I noticed the old link on the CFF website for Sower's farm website has miraculously disappeared! Â
I wonder why? Â
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bfh
The link to Sowers website is still there:
It's on the "Christian Links" page - http://www.cffm.org/doc/links.shtml
Three up from the bottom in the list of links.
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now I see
Drat! Â Guess I looked in the wrong place, it is unfortunate that they still have it there.
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Ham
Apparently if one wants to get in the mog business, they'll put up a link for you..
I would like to see their requirements just a TAD higher. Like.. the linked website has to say who's running the thing.. who's on board, what the curriculum is.. who's teaching what..
it's fine that perhaps THEY (cff) know the who's and what's about the program, but what about anyone else? And what about the disclaimer? Is it.. "use at your own risk"?
Supposedly it's Cour*right's believer link page.. why then doesn't it stay on Cour*right's internet website?
The "sowers" seem to be going the way of der vey.. don't "owe" anybody any kind of explanation, or accountability, other than to themselves..
it's been what.. a couple of years since groundbreaking.. and their site leaves the outside world to merely guess about who's running it, their qualifications, their history.. if this is the will of gawd, you'd think they'd want to be found..
All of this secrecy leads me to think they are delusional, and that they actually think the lord told them to hole up in rural mississippi..
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Ham
Skyrider's words on another thread seem to fit here.
in the old ministry, I don't think it REALLY was about what vic described with tears in the eyes, "building MEN and WOMEN..". It was about building an ORGANIZATION. People be damned..
And there is no accountability. The guy on top has power to "terminate the program at any time", "dismiss ANY participant" at any given moment, at his SOLE DISCRETION. And he is- NEVER WRONG. On any count..
I bet they "ordain" almost every single first graduate of the program..
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Rejoice
Gosh, that website makes me shudder!! Re-listing the 5 principles:
When Jesus taught his followers, he said to go forth and Love God first, and your neighbor as yourself---period. He dismantled the worldy systems that raised up "representatives of God"---which is [once again] just the opposite of what man does in the name of God.
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Ham
and what do they have to offer the recruits? Power, to be LIKE THEM.. in the ORGANIZATION.
to be the "who's who" in the cult hall of shame..
the "privilege" of having the power of summary judgement- to be like God..
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Ham
"Acquire and in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.."
Do they really think they can deliver on this one? Some of those guys likely were around practically until rosie's reign..
and didn't have a stinking CLUE of the real abuses going on behind the scenes.. starting from gramps, to loy..
where was their highly valued acquired in depth spiritual perception and awareness, then?
Can't they see that mog worship kinda clouds one's judgement? I don't think they can discern spirits out of a wet paper bag.. especially as long as they hold gramps in high regard.
I think all they are doing, is conditioning people to disregard that which is obvious, and seek out the arcane explanation.. the mini-mogster didn't get a ticket because he was speeding, no. It's debils out there, trying to break his concentration, so da greatness of der verd doesn't prevail..
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Ham
so, in the old system, why did they prove to be ineffective as to rooting out the evil? Admittedly, some heroically tried.. even at great risk to themselves.
I think the overall ineffectiveness marks the system itself as flawed.. the basic tools needed to fix the system itself were lacking or non-existent.
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rascal
You know....the whole system to me seems designed to complicate what should have been very very simple
Love God and Love your neighbor...when you do that...everything else seems to fall into place.
Those way corpes principles brought it all back...
I remember my twi mindset....take this class for all of the answeres..go wow to grow with God...take more classes to become mature spiritually...go corpes to learn how to serve God for a life time...follow these principles to grow...apply these keys to have greater understanding...obey leadership so as not to be stiff necked...tithe to have prosperity...witness it is your duty....
It was all down to formulas....master this, do that follow these instructions and you will arrive spiritually.
A + B = C
My decade plus in twi was wrought with such frustration ... knowing that in spite of applying every single rule for faith and practice, every instruction given for spiritual growth...prayer...tithing...study...abs...participation in every program possible...I knew that the spiritual *connection* just wasn`t there...I would apply EVERY thing I knew in order for God to preform as he was required....it was an immutable law...don`tcha know...and still was missing the mark.
I`m telling you, it took getting away all of that....to get humble and allow God to work ... getting rid of the ego of I believe this I have done that you are required to preform thus, mindset before I felt that connection and saw my spiritual life soar.
I think these guys with their programs actually lead people into the complications that will interfere with the simplicity of what is required for ones personal walk.
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rascal
My Goodness, just look at the lives of the men who designed that program. Look at the viscious damage that they inflicted on people, all the while convinced that they were God`s elect, that they were in the center of God`s will.
Research, and prayer, and applications of principles and attention to details did not help these fellows to be men of the spirit. They hurt a lot of people...I am thinking that they missed the boat...and now a new generation it would seem has to learn their lessons the hard way.
I feel so bad for the participants...sigh what a waste.
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Ham
some people say you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I don't see how people think they can set up some kind of paramilitary survivor program in the middle of the swamp, and BEAT spirituality into the volunteers. Submission and obedience, perhaps.. but "spirituality"?
The kid's probably had barely enough psychology courses to be dangerous..
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Ham
words borrowed from Groucho from another thread:
I can't find fault with Groucho for this. The corps supposedly signed on to receive training such that they could acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Instead, I think they got training which instilled mog worship and beat them down into a lifetime of bondage and servitude..
so how does this new group think they are going to do any better?
"any participant may be dismissed at any time.."
"the program may be cancelled at any time"
all at the whims or discretion of those charged(?) with oversight..
"those in charge" apparently are above guilt, wrongdoing or recrimination.
what if abuse occurs? does the victim find themself waking up on a bus with a headache, 700 miles away? And the rest of the enrollees find the person's life picked apart in some kind of spiritual analysis, as to why they got "possessed"?
will they be so well "trained" that they will disregard the evidence, seen through their own eyes, and buy the stories of how der mog is the greatest, and can do no wrong?
I still don't see how using the same methods will produce any different results..
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Ham
and that is the REAL question I asked, personally. "What are you doing to keep the same thing from happening, AGAIN?" No answers of course.
Personally, I wouldn't keep someone whom I know who actually gives a damn in the dark.. you asked for help for this thing, didn't you? Prayed for "guidance"? For "wisdom" in running the thing?
Here it is.. don't like a little rough edge on it.. tough crap.
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Mark Clarke
This may have been covered somewhere else, but I can't find it. I know this new program is being run by VP Wierwille II, the grandson of "Doc Vic". I'm just wondering, which of VPW's children is VP2 the child of?
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Ham
j.p.
same program. v2p2's running it, but he's not running it. It's his idea, but not really his idea.. it's run by a board.. pa's on board. Then I hear: it's not jr.'s program, it's really Mc*ullen's..
but then junior tells me he cooked it up..
and that's about all anybody who is not on the "board" knows..
or rather, that's all those on the "board" seem to care that anybody else should know..
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Ham
and they still have the same lame website.. no information of real relevance.
http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx
No listing of "officers".. just a single contact through an aol account, and a donate tab at the bottom.
The feeling I get looking at that.."here am I, serve me.."
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JavaJane
But... Isn't this the prophecy that there will always be someone in the Weirwille family standing for God???
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