I dunno.. what is most pathetic here, is that the people who run the thing likely don't know how to do anything else.. other than to drill recruits and bark orders, try to beat "discipline" into them..
followed by hours of mind-numbing replays of old stuff better off left buried..
in what.. about seven months or so, they will release their "clone army" on the world..
Another thing that bothers me is the secrecy that surrounds this thing.. if it's so honorable and so on.. why is it they apparently refuse to publish who's staff, what their qualifications are, what's really in the curriculum.. what their real purpose of existence is..
what is it that they FEAR? Is it possible that they really think that the answers they'd give wouldn't be exactly acceptible to rational human beings?
Add to that the loose back door affiliation with cff.. somehow they consider the little cardboard website deserving of a link on their website..
and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site..
"and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site.."
care to explain that last line a little further for those of us who don't go there?..........just curious...........................peace.
Jonny started another thread about a slideshow over on the corps site ... Groucho noticed v2p2 is deemed honorary corps there ...
Ham ... they only have a couple months to get their twelve ... maybe if they had some of the enlightened read some of our comments, it would inspire them ...
Well, they had to sacrifice a few christians before they learned to run away ... perhaps the twelve will be offered up to the innocent, harmless little rabbit program
what are the requirements for qualification to be part of the "program"?
Supposedly "administered"(?) on an "honors"(??) basis?
Does the enrollee have to have to submit themselves to sitting through a bootleg copy of old "docs" "miracle class", or every class known to cff.. or be "graduates" of cff's program, or what? I mean.. if they are supposed to have "honors" qualifications.. what ARE the qualifications?
or do they make them up as they go along?
Does one have to even hold a high school diploma?
Know the greek alphabet?
or just prepared to put up with enough crap, and keep smiling?
I think it's a fair question.
Or are they looking for those who are actually intelligent, but unemployed, and will put up with enough crap to take a supposed "shortcut" to get out of mom and dad's house?
The next big question:
How many bridges have they been told that they will have to burn behind them to reach "the promised land"? And once there, will they find themselves forced to comply with insanity, or be sent off into the outer "darkness"?
Program to be administered on an honor basis. Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program may be cancelled at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight.
"charged with oversight"..
Who is charged with oversight?
"well, we're just not saying.."
the only three names I've seen revealed are v2p2, pappy, and M*mullen..
it seems to be an elusive, can't quite pin down who's all in it board..
Seems a Methodist organization doesn't have any "issues" with publically revealing who is on the board.. names, qualifications..
Next thought.. WHO are they claiming charges THEM with oversight?
"well, we're just not saying.."
seriously.. did one of them give a word of *prophecy* or something.. "Mah peoples, I have CHARGED you.." and the rest of them in the room just let their heads bob up and down in agreement?
Well, I charged you with ombudsman powers Ham ... it is just up to the 12 to see the light and follow you.
Maybe they put their finger in an electrical outlet and got charged with oversight.
But yes, Who charged them with oversight ... of course they are "ordaining" themselves ... they want to hint at some spiritual foundation I guess ...
probably in some closed room there was some "prophecy" about spiders and snakes, and vp's name was conjured up ... so v2p2 is being sent forth to Mississippi into the land of spiders and snakes ... and a new corps shall be built ... and the old (vp) shall be made new (v2p2) ...
OK, I'm guessing, but I imagine those elements are tossed about among the really spiritual. Here is the video of the revival where the decided to get the corps back together ...
And Ham is here to provide a more sure word of prophecy ...
First off let me say I have not had time to read this entire thread, so if I missed a correction that has already been posted, I apologize. I also won't have time to do much follow up on this thread either. so you can either take or leave this contribution to the discussion here.
In reading through this thread over a week ago, I noticed it was being discussed that a young vpw had set up some kind of training program that was a carbon copy of TWI's way corps and that this was somehow affiliated with CFF.
I am not active with CFF, but my husband is, so of course this concerned me. I investigated whatever links were supplied in this thread and did in fact find the five wc principles lifted directly (plagiarized-- and that's a whole 'nother issue in and of itself) from TWI's program. This really set me off, so I brought it to Geek's attention. He had no idea what vpw II was up to and that it was at all affiliated with CFF.
I did look at the link provided about the affiliation with CFF and it is simply listed as a link for others to click on and investigate, and there is in fact a disclaimer that the groups listed in these links may not (and many do not) reflect the beliefs of CFF.
Here is what is important for you to know about vpw II's program: It is neither supported nor condoned in any way by CFF. There is some pretty stiff opposition to what vpw II is doing, and I know more than that about who, and cannot freely say, but it's not supported financially, legally, or any other way by CFF. This program is something vpw II is doing all on his own.
And, OK, here's what I can tell you that many here seem to not know or get about CFF:
CFF is not set up at all like TWIs internal structure-- here is a quick compare/contrast:
UNLIKE TWI:
They allow contact with outside Christian groups who do not believe the same thing they do about a great many issues. This does many things:
Sorry about that-- am out of town using somebody else's weird shaped keyboard and with some bad arthritis developing in my fingers now, I accidentally hit the wrong button and that got sent before I was done.
CFF is very decentralized compared to what we were all accustomed to in TWI.
Each fellowship is encouraged to set up their own tax-deductible situation so that the money people give stays in their own community. If they wish to send anything on to CFF they can do so, but the idea is to keep the funds serving in the area among those who gave it. So each fellowship really is self-governing and self-supporting, not supporting a huge centralized structure.
Also, CFF allows contact with other Christians who have differing beliefs.
Allowing contact with other people who believe differently than you does several things:
It allows for diversity of opinion, which is something TWI never allowed. This is important because it helps guard against a psychological phenomenon called groupthink, which was present in twi. This phenomenon can be found in many different kinds of organizations where there is strong biased opinion and cohesiveness (and unfortunately I have noted the antecedents and process in play on this board from time to time).
This keeps the door open to be able to openly question long-accepted doctrine.
It keeps the door open to have new ideas brought in.
It avoids the censorship TWI subjected us to.
Some people can't handle this idea, because they believe disagreement is not a "Christian" thing to do.
Others believe it is not possible to have a Christian fellowship without everybody being "on the same page" with every "jot and tittle" of doctrine. So this can be hard for people to get used to.
Still others, in great error, keep trying to pidgeonhole CFF into their idea of what an offshoot should look like, and miss this very important distinction. Because they miss it, they attribute some aspects to CFF that it does not in fact have, and miss important ones it does, like allowing diversity of opinion.
However, that is the commitment CFF has to not "censor" other peoples beliefs, but to build bridges to one another in the Christian community, affiliating with both ex-twi groups and Christian groups who have never been a part of twi. This is in CFF's interest of recognizing their part in the larger world community of Christianity and building upon what Christians agree upon together and not what they disagree upon.
The down side to that:
The same downside you have in any democracy: You have to allow open dissent, even if you disagree with what is being said.
While allowing for other people to believe radically different things about Christianity, it also allows for some people to get stuck perpetuating the same old doctrines from the past abusive system due to the lack of control over doctrine.
So you get people like vpw II being able to take part in a fellowlaborer program that CFF set up and makes available to any group or any church to take part in, and then go out and start his own thing, totally separate from CFF, the way he wants to, without any input whatsoever from CFF, without their support doctrinally, financially, administrationally, or legally. It is his thing, plain and simple, has nothing to do with CFF, nor is it condoned. I could get more specific, but I don't want to complicate someone else's familial relationship.
Don't know if this clears anything up for anybody, but Geek and I were both alarmed at this, he and I both checked it out, and this program is in no way connected to CFF other than a link on their site.
So you get people like vpw II being able to take part in a fellowlaborer program that CFF set up and makes available to any group or any church to take part in, and then go out and start his own thing, totally separate from CFF, the way he wants to, without any input whatsoever from CFF, without their support doctrinally, financially, administrationally, or legally.
But in contrast to vpwII's point of view, you have a host of others which oppose it, can freely express their views of why they oppose it and lay out logical reasons arguing against it.
That's part of checks and balances in any democratic arrangement, whether it is political, academic, or religious.
Catcup, the thing that really troubled me was I basically had the door slammed with just honest, concerned inquiry. Perhaps rather pointed.. but I was polite, or as polite as I could be. I know the kid.. and he knows who I am.
This was over a month before I brought it here. Another poster took offense and inadvertenly leaked that supposedly the program really is all Mc*ullen's pride and joy..
The kid couldn't even tell me that much. Why the secrecy? Now I think I wasn't the first one to voice a few objections and warnings..
Catcup, the thing that really troubled me was I basically had the door slammed with just honest, concerned inquiry. Perhaps rather pointed.. but I was polite, or as polite as I could be. I know the kid.. and he knows who I am.
This was over a month before I brought it here. Another poster took offense and inadvertenly leaked that supposedly the program really is all Mc*ullen's pride and joy..
The kid couldn't even tell me that much. Why the secrecy? Now I think I wasn't the first one to voice a few objections and warnings..
The arrogance just reeks all the way up here..
No, you're not the first one to voice objections and warnings about this corps program cloning, and certainly not the last. And your objection should continue to be heard. You have every right to be troubled. And you aren't the only one.
I wouldn't be surprised if the program is in fact Mc*ullen's "pride and joy." It has, however, no connection to CFF other than a link on their site and the fact that vpwII went through the fellowlaborer program.
Plagiarism is plagiarism and this perpetuates not only some of the worst of TWI's tradition, but opens the door for a host of problems at many different levels. --Which is why this program is not "universally popular" or even supported by those you might expect would be behind it. In fact it is radically opposed in places.
Also, to tell you the truth, I would be troubled anywhere when honest and polite inquiry is discouraged, and especially so when treated with arrogance. Absolutely.
That doesn't stop my inquiry, however, just causes me to ask more questions.
Personally, I get two different receptions from offshoot types-- they either like me or they just can't stand me. From a particular family, who are of two differing opinions, one part is supportive, and the other side can barely disguise their animosity toward me.
At this point, I get support from the people who matter, so to me, that's all that matters. I'm not much phased by other folks' opinions.
I wouldn't be surprised if the program is in fact Mc*ullen's "pride and joy." It has, however, no connection to CFF other than a link on their site and the fact that vpwII went through the fellowlaborer program.
And that's about all he could list when I asked about the qualifications of those running the deal.
"I know the bible. Certainly fellowlaborers counts for SOMETHING.."
listed a few upper ups in CFF as being among his "counsellors". Now I question how much "counsel" they indeed provided.. especially in regard to this new venture. I just can't see Wayne saying.. "You've proved yourself in da church, go for it kid.." The kid hasn't even made it even once around the block in life yet.
Of course he has a degree. Graduated with honors.. unless I'm mistaken, ironically, in HISTORY.
He thinks the way was a pleasant land, where a few *bad men* caused all the "problems".. thinks martindale was the primary cause of their misery.
I don't think he can take an honest look at way history.
He lists gramps as one of his heroes..
now he is apparently surrounded by a handful of aging, unemployed yes men, who apparently have told him that gramps was the greatest manogawd since the earth cooled.. and I think fed his ego. I think they are working him, trying to milk his name for all it's apparently worth.
"troubling" is an understatement for how I feel about all of this.
So the next question.. where are the enrollees coming FROM? Gotta recruit them SOMEWHERE.
Without SOME kind of affiliation, even a loose one.. or somebody's recommendation, I don't think he could open shop.
Logically, to me, the only places he has to recruit are from offshoots, or among those who still revere gramps name.
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mstar1
Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hid
Ham
From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is
Tzaia
The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind
Ham
Hmm. I wonder what would happen if OSHA paid them a visit.. plus I wonder about the legality of trade of labor for *free* room and board..
Naw, I wouldn't wish that on them. I may be concerned, but I'm not hateful or vindictive or anything..
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Ham
I dunno.. what is most pathetic here, is that the people who run the thing likely don't know how to do anything else.. other than to drill recruits and bark orders, try to beat "discipline" into them..
followed by hours of mind-numbing replays of old stuff better off left buried..
in what.. about seven months or so, they will release their "clone army" on the world..
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nyunknown
Clone army? I can't imagine them making clones of VPW or L.C martindale! I will get my jedi sword ready for them!
in what.. about seven months or so, they will release their "clone army" on the world..
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Ham
Another thing that bothers me is the secrecy that surrounds this thing.. if it's so honorable and so on.. why is it they apparently refuse to publish who's staff, what their qualifications are, what's really in the curriculum.. what their real purpose of existence is..
what is it that they FEAR? Is it possible that they really think that the answers they'd give wouldn't be exactly acceptible to rational human beings?
Add to that the loose back door affiliation with cff.. somehow they consider the little cardboard website deserving of a link on their website..
and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site..
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya ham!......still no answers, eh?.............
"Add to that the loose back door affiliation with cff.. somehow they consider the little cardboard website deserving of a link on their website..
and the boy has special privileges at richeson's site.."
care to explain that last line a little further for those of us who don't go there?..........just curious...........................peace.
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Ham
Rhino reports he's supposed to have some kinda guest membership at the ex corps site, never having gone through the corpse.
Maybe it's all innocent and everything.. but from the outside it looks like a joke.
Still no answers though. I'd say richeson is trying to rub elbows with the who's supposedly who.
as far as cff is concerned, he's their product.. went through their program. Now they have an have a link to his little adventure on the farm..
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rhino
Jonny started another thread about a slideshow over on the corps site ... Groucho noticed v2p2 is deemed honorary corps there ...
Ham ... they only have a couple months to get their twelve ... maybe if they had some of the enlightened read some of our comments, it would inspire them ...
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Ham
"might inspire them".. heheheh.
the only "inspiration" I see is a scene from Monty Python..
"run away, run away...."
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rhino
Well, they had to sacrifice a few christians before they learned to run away ... perhaps the twelve will be offered up to the innocent, harmless little rabbit program
I just want to watch ...
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Ham
a few more thoughts..
what are the requirements for qualification to be part of the "program"?
Supposedly "administered"(?) on an "honors"(??) basis?
Does the enrollee have to have to submit themselves to sitting through a bootleg copy of old "docs" "miracle class", or every class known to cff.. or be "graduates" of cff's program, or what? I mean.. if they are supposed to have "honors" qualifications.. what ARE the qualifications?
or do they make them up as they go along?
Does one have to even hold a high school diploma?
Know the greek alphabet?
or just prepared to put up with enough crap, and keep smiling?
I think it's a fair question.
Or are they looking for those who are actually intelligent, but unemployed, and will put up with enough crap to take a supposed "shortcut" to get out of mom and dad's house?
The next big question:
How many bridges have they been told that they will have to burn behind them to reach "the promised land"? And once there, will they find themselves forced to comply with insanity, or be sent off into the outer "darkness"?
The whole concept here is very troubling to me..
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Ham
"charged with oversight"..
Who is charged with oversight?
"well, we're just not saying.."
the only three names I've seen revealed are v2p2, pappy, and M*mullen..
it seems to be an elusive, can't quite pin down who's all in it board..
compare:
http://www.fumf.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/About.Board
Seems a Methodist organization doesn't have any "issues" with publically revealing who is on the board.. names, qualifications..
Next thought.. WHO are they claiming charges THEM with oversight?
"well, we're just not saying.."
seriously.. did one of them give a word of *prophecy* or something.. "Mah peoples, I have CHARGED you.." and the rest of them in the room just let their heads bob up and down in agreement?
sounds like they've ordained themselves..
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rhino
Well, I charged you with ombudsman powers Ham ... it is just up to the 12 to see the light and follow you.
Maybe they put their finger in an electrical outlet and got charged with oversight.
But yes, Who charged them with oversight ... of course they are "ordaining" themselves ... they want to hint at some spiritual foundation I guess ...
probably in some closed room there was some "prophecy" about spiders and snakes, and vp's name was conjured up ... so v2p2 is being sent forth to Mississippi into the land of spiders and snakes ... and a new corps shall be built ... and the old (vp) shall be made new (v2p2) ...
OK, I'm guessing, but I imagine those elements are tossed about among the really spiritual. Here is the video of the revival where the decided to get the corps back together ...
And Ham is here to provide a more sure word of prophecy ...
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Ham
Hey, at least I give them fair warning. "follow me if you must, thou verily mightest have fun, but be assured you are following a fruit cake.."
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brideofjc
You can contact the MS Sec. of State and request a copy of the BOD for about $10 or so. These are public records and are available.
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Catcup
First off let me say I have not had time to read this entire thread, so if I missed a correction that has already been posted, I apologize. I also won't have time to do much follow up on this thread either. so you can either take or leave this contribution to the discussion here.
In reading through this thread over a week ago, I noticed it was being discussed that a young vpw had set up some kind of training program that was a carbon copy of TWI's way corps and that this was somehow affiliated with CFF.
I am not active with CFF, but my husband is, so of course this concerned me. I investigated whatever links were supplied in this thread and did in fact find the five wc principles lifted directly (plagiarized-- and that's a whole 'nother issue in and of itself) from TWI's program. This really set me off, so I brought it to Geek's attention. He had no idea what vpw II was up to and that it was at all affiliated with CFF.
I did look at the link provided about the affiliation with CFF and it is simply listed as a link for others to click on and investigate, and there is in fact a disclaimer that the groups listed in these links may not (and many do not) reflect the beliefs of CFF.
Here is what is important for you to know about vpw II's program: It is neither supported nor condoned in any way by CFF. There is some pretty stiff opposition to what vpw II is doing, and I know more than that about who, and cannot freely say, but it's not supported financially, legally, or any other way by CFF. This program is something vpw II is doing all on his own.
And, OK, here's what I can tell you that many here seem to not know or get about CFF:
CFF is not set up at all like TWIs internal structure-- here is a quick compare/contrast:
UNLIKE TWI:
They allow contact with outside Christian groups who do not believe the same thing they do about a great many issues. This does many things:
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Catcup
Sorry about that-- am out of town using somebody else's weird shaped keyboard and with some bad arthritis developing in my fingers now, I accidentally hit the wrong button and that got sent before I was done.
CFF is very decentralized compared to what we were all accustomed to in TWI.
Each fellowship is encouraged to set up their own tax-deductible situation so that the money people give stays in their own community. If they wish to send anything on to CFF they can do so, but the idea is to keep the funds serving in the area among those who gave it. So each fellowship really is self-governing and self-supporting, not supporting a huge centralized structure.
Also, CFF allows contact with other Christians who have differing beliefs.
Allowing contact with other people who believe differently than you does several things:
It allows for diversity of opinion, which is something TWI never allowed. This is important because it helps guard against a psychological phenomenon called groupthink, which was present in twi. This phenomenon can be found in many different kinds of organizations where there is strong biased opinion and cohesiveness (and unfortunately I have noted the antecedents and process in play on this board from time to time).
This keeps the door open to be able to openly question long-accepted doctrine.
It keeps the door open to have new ideas brought in.
It avoids the censorship TWI subjected us to.
Some people can't handle this idea, because they believe disagreement is not a "Christian" thing to do.
Others believe it is not possible to have a Christian fellowship without everybody being "on the same page" with every "jot and tittle" of doctrine. So this can be hard for people to get used to.
Still others, in great error, keep trying to pidgeonhole CFF into their idea of what an offshoot should look like, and miss this very important distinction. Because they miss it, they attribute some aspects to CFF that it does not in fact have, and miss important ones it does, like allowing diversity of opinion.
However, that is the commitment CFF has to not "censor" other peoples beliefs, but to build bridges to one another in the Christian community, affiliating with both ex-twi groups and Christian groups who have never been a part of twi. This is in CFF's interest of recognizing their part in the larger world community of Christianity and building upon what Christians agree upon together and not what they disagree upon.
The down side to that:
The same downside you have in any democracy: You have to allow open dissent, even if you disagree with what is being said.
While allowing for other people to believe radically different things about Christianity, it also allows for some people to get stuck perpetuating the same old doctrines from the past abusive system due to the lack of control over doctrine.
So you get people like vpw II being able to take part in a fellowlaborer program that CFF set up and makes available to any group or any church to take part in, and then go out and start his own thing, totally separate from CFF, the way he wants to, without any input whatsoever from CFF, without their support doctrinally, financially, administrationally, or legally. It is his thing, plain and simple, has nothing to do with CFF, nor is it condoned. I could get more specific, but I don't want to complicate someone else's familial relationship.
Don't know if this clears anything up for anybody, but Geek and I were both alarmed at this, he and I both checked it out, and this program is in no way connected to CFF other than a link on their site.
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TheHighWay
Catcup, as always, your input is extremely informed and helpful!!
THW
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Catcup
But in contrast to vpwII's point of view, you have a host of others which oppose it, can freely express their views of why they oppose it and lay out logical reasons arguing against it.
That's part of checks and balances in any democratic arrangement, whether it is political, academic, or religious.
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Ham
Catcup, the thing that really troubled me was I basically had the door slammed with just honest, concerned inquiry. Perhaps rather pointed.. but I was polite, or as polite as I could be. I know the kid.. and he knows who I am.
This was over a month before I brought it here. Another poster took offense and inadvertenly leaked that supposedly the program really is all Mc*ullen's pride and joy..
The kid couldn't even tell me that much. Why the secrecy? Now I think I wasn't the first one to voice a few objections and warnings..
The arrogance just reeks all the way up here..
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frank123lol
Cee,Lets add 1plus one plus one,conclussion?Glad catcup had her say about cff
I am glad they allow different points of view.
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Catcup
No, you're not the first one to voice objections and warnings about this corps program cloning, and certainly not the last. And your objection should continue to be heard. You have every right to be troubled. And you aren't the only one.
I wouldn't be surprised if the program is in fact Mc*ullen's "pride and joy." It has, however, no connection to CFF other than a link on their site and the fact that vpwII went through the fellowlaborer program.
Plagiarism is plagiarism and this perpetuates not only some of the worst of TWI's tradition, but opens the door for a host of problems at many different levels. --Which is why this program is not "universally popular" or even supported by those you might expect would be behind it. In fact it is radically opposed in places.
Also, to tell you the truth, I would be troubled anywhere when honest and polite inquiry is discouraged, and especially so when treated with arrogance. Absolutely.
That doesn't stop my inquiry, however, just causes me to ask more questions.
Personally, I get two different receptions from offshoot types-- they either like me or they just can't stand me. From a particular family, who are of two differing opinions, one part is supportive, and the other side can barely disguise their animosity toward me.
At this point, I get support from the people who matter, so to me, that's all that matters. I'm not much phased by other folks' opinions.
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Ham
And that's about all he could list when I asked about the qualifications of those running the deal.
"I know the bible. Certainly fellowlaborers counts for SOMETHING.."
listed a few upper ups in CFF as being among his "counsellors". Now I question how much "counsel" they indeed provided.. especially in regard to this new venture. I just can't see Wayne saying.. "You've proved yourself in da church, go for it kid.." The kid hasn't even made it even once around the block in life yet.
Of course he has a degree. Graduated with honors.. unless I'm mistaken, ironically, in HISTORY.
He thinks the way was a pleasant land, where a few *bad men* caused all the "problems".. thinks martindale was the primary cause of their misery.
I don't think he can take an honest look at way history.
He lists gramps as one of his heroes..
now he is apparently surrounded by a handful of aging, unemployed yes men, who apparently have told him that gramps was the greatest manogawd since the earth cooled.. and I think fed his ego. I think they are working him, trying to milk his name for all it's apparently worth.
"troubling" is an understatement for how I feel about all of this.
So the next question.. where are the enrollees coming FROM? Gotta recruit them SOMEWHERE.
Without SOME kind of affiliation, even a loose one.. or somebody's recommendation, I don't think he could open shop.
Logically, to me, the only places he has to recruit are from offshoots, or among those who still revere gramps name.
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Tom Strange
why is v2p2 doing it?
simple... "thar's gold in them thar hills!"
I have no doubts whatsoever that folks would benefit more at Ron's place (so would Ron)...
I used to think my eyesight was getting worse... it was harder to focus... then I cleaned my glasses.
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Oakspear
Whose kid is V2P2 anyway? JP's? I'm pretty sure he's not one of Don's. How old is he? He'd have to be under 30 I'd think.
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