Wisdom is simply wisdom....and it works for saint and sinner alike. For example, changing the oil in your car every 3k miles so that you don't seize up the engine.
I think there is a difference between Wisdom and knowledge.
We can have knowledge on how to maintain your cars engine , but do we have the wisdom to do it ?
We have knowledge of good and evil... what we chose to do with that knowledge can either be wisdom or foolish.
the bible holy Spirit etc.gives us instruction about Gods will we may know it, but Wisdom is different Wisdom is the ability to trust and apply other principles beyond the knowing of the story or facts.
Again you fail to read what I said , what is written . what I said was
The basic commitment God requires of man is the same in every administration,it is believing. Believing is not a cause,it simply fulfills the conditions necessary for God to bring to pass His will.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Vines - effectual "energeo" to put forth power, be operative, to work.also used as the effect produced in a man
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
Yes it is the The WORD OF GOD that is EFFECTUALLY WORKING in those that believe If it did not work for sinners then we would all be in dire straits.
THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE:
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
It is not the BELIEVING that is effectually working....Jesus said it best when he said in
Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? and why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.
I think there is a difference between Wisdom and knowledge.
We can have knowledge on how to maintain your cars engine , but do we have the wisdom to do it ?
We have knowledge of good and evil... what we chose to do with that knowledge can either be wisdom or foolish.
the bible holy Spirit etc.gives us instruction about Gods will we may know it, but Wisdom is different Wisdom is the ability to trust and apply other principles beyond the knowing of the story or facts.
True, but unbelievers sometime have more wisdom than believers, sad to say.
Luke 16:8
And the Lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
It is not the BELIEVING that is effectually working....Jesus said it best when he said in
Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? and why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.
Rather contradictory isn't it?
First I'll leave out Matthew 6:27 one verse at a time, I spoke as to Thessalonians. There is no contradiction there
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Exactly what it says the word of God works effectually in those that believe, it does not work in those that do not believe. the condition for it to work effectually is that it must be one must believe. Just like in the money example I gave if one does not believe that the money is there for the taking you will not reap the benefits. If one does not believe that the word works effectually in them then one will not reap the benefits, Believing is as I said not a cause it is not taking thought, or adding cubits it is recieving information from God either by written scripture or by revelation manifestations and accepting it as truth, and if need be acting on that truth.
First I'll leave out Matthew 6:27 one verse at a time, I spoke as to Thessalonians. There is no contradiction there
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Exactly what it says the word of God works effectually in those that believe, it does not work in those that do not believe. the condition for it to work effectually is that it must be one must believe.Just like in the money example I gave if one does not believe that the money is there for the taking you will not reap the benefits. If one does not believe that the word works effectually in them then one will not reap the benefits, Believing is as I said not a cause it is not taking thought, or adding cubits it is recieving information from God either by written scripture or by revelation manifestations and accepting it as truth, and if need be acting on that truth.
(I have modified some portions of your post in order to address them.)
Do you realize how amazingly restrictive that would have to be?
Going back to the "soft answer" example.
Suppose a person(we'll call him an Atheist for illustrative purposes.) in a customer service related field stumbles on the "soft answer" technique. He subconsciously keeps it in his cache of techniques because of its effectiveness.
He hasn't gotten this from written scripture nor has he received revelation. He simply stumbled on it through trial and error.
And yet, the technique produces results. Why? Does it work because he got it from scripture or received revelation or "operated" believing? No. It simply works because it is God's word. Even though said person does not believe it is God's word, it will still work. The only condition that needs to be met is that he must utilize it.
He could, in fact, simply view it as a wise way to do business. It will still work.
I noticed that WD's answers are different than the twi answers.
In WD's answer, whether the information comes from God or not matters.
Not in the twi answer.
Here's what the Orange Book says on page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
Here's some of the Blue Book.
pg-43.
""You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
pg-44.
""Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
And the Beige Book (GMW) pg-79.
"The great things of this world are available to men and women who know how to operate one of God's laws, namely the law of 'believing equals receiving.' And this law includes 'believing equals action.' Great accomplishments are not necessarily just for people with great intellectual ability; they are attainable by men and women who believe to receive. It doesn't hurt to have a few brains, but it doesn't help unless one operates this universal law of believing. Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
It could very well be placed in the doctrinal section as far as the discussion has gone, which is pretty far away from anything that pertains to just getting back from church IMO.
Still, as the doctines involved has either helped or hurt us at various times, I appreciate reading your various statements.
Dear Brideofjc,
Whitedove was not being infantile because when he/she answered me, He/she stated that I was not put on ignore. I was thinking that I might have been put on ignore by Whitedove because one of my first conversations here on this site involved me getting angry at Whitedove. I am encouraged to see that Whitedove answered my concerns directly and that was before your comments concerning childish behavior on whitedove's part.
Dear Whitedove,
I don't consider myself to be one who sacrifices truth to play peacekeeper, but everyone's certainly free to have their own opinion about me.
I do try to be one who looks at who I'm talking to and where they are coming from when I'm discussing a topic. I consider this to be part of "SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE". For me it seems to be the difference between being a bully and effectvely helping someone, or sometimes it is the difference between the conversation ending up productive or not. At the very least it has helped me not be mindlessly argumentative.
(I have modified some portions of your post in order to address them.)
Do you realize how amazingly restrictive that would have to be?
Going back to the "soft answer" example.
Suppose a person(we'll call him an Atheist for illustrative purposes.) in a customer service related field stumbles on the "soft answer" technique. He subconsciously keeps it in his cache of techniques because of its effectiveness.
He hasn't gotten this from written scripture nor has he received revelation. He simply stumbled on it through trial and error.
And yet, the technique produces results. Why? Does it work because he got it from scripture or received revelation or "operated" believing? No. It simply works because it is God's word. Even though said person does not believe it is God's word, it will still work. The only condition that needs to be met is that he must utilize it.
He could, in fact, simply view it as a wise way to do business. It will still work.
...... same answer as before
I noticed that WD's answers are different than the twi answers.
In WD's answer, whether the information comes from God or not matters.
Not in the twi answer.
Here's what the Orange Book says on page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
Here's some of the Blue Book.
pg-43.
""You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
pg-44.
""Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
And the Beige Book (GMW) pg-79.
"The great things of this world are available to men and women who know how to operate one of God's laws, namely the law of 'believing equals receiving.' And this law includes 'believing equals action.' Great accomplishments are not necessarily just for people with great intellectual ability; they are attainable by men and women who believe to receive. It doesn't hurt to have a few brains, but it doesn't help unless one operates this universal law of believing. Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
Whitedove was not being infantile because when he/she answered me, He/she stated that I was not put on ignore. I was thinking that I might have been put on ignore by Whitedove because one of my first conversations here on this site involved me getting angry at Whitedove. I am encouraged to see that Whitedove answered my concerns directly and that was before your comments concerning childish behavior on whitedove's part.
I noticed that WD's answers are different than the twi answers.
In WD's answer, whether the information comes from God or not matters.
Not in the twi answer.
Here's what the Orange Book says on page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
Here's some of the Blue Book.
pg-43.
""You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
pg-44.
""Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
And the Beige Book (GMW) pg-79.
"The great things of this world are available to men and women who know how to operate one of God's laws, namely the law of 'believing equals receiving.' And this law includes 'believing equals action.' Great accomplishments are not necessarily just for people with great intellectual ability; they are attainable by men and women who believe to receive. It doesn't hurt to have a few brains, but it doesn't help unless one operates this universal law of believing. Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
So.......wierwille's extremism is NOT representative in wd's post.....BECAUSE in accordance with scripture the statements in wierwille's orange book, blue book, and beige book are NOT TRUE..???
In other words.......wierwille's "law of believing" is off on another tangent and is FALSE PROPHECY.
Surprised?.......NOPE, not at all.
THAT'S WHY many of us are here at GS......to expose the evil and error in wierwille's ministry.....and since "the law of believing" was one of the main ingredients to wierwille's recipe for a "believer's success"........it leads back to wierwille and his FALSE DOCTRINES.
Thanks whitedove..........you get the Greasespotter Award this week.
Hey there oldiesman. I was going to respond to this earlier, but I had my college algebra class to get to, so here I am.
Now, the "law of believing" essentially states that positive belief = positive outcomes in life, and that negative belief = negative outcomes in life.
With this, let me put this scenario into your head. Suppose things with Stephanie (my girlfriend who is involved with TWI) and I don't work out, but we wholeheartedly believed that they would. The law of believing, in this case, is negated. It's too black and white, the law of believing doesn't account for chance and probability in the world. If you really want to say that this law applies to something like physical death, then Peter and Paul, two of the greatest leaders of the early Church, one of them having directly been in contact with Christ Himself, would have had insufficient belief.
There are many problems with this, one of which I have already stated: the lack of probability.
1. Is TWI judging their faith? Christ did say, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you" did He not?
2. This law turns God into a tyrant, or it turns Christian theism into a twisted form of deism. Let's say we have a guy named Bob, and Bob is having problems with his finances. He sincerely prays to God to help him, though he is still distraught with fear and doubt. And will God help him? Well...not if he doesn't rightly believe! But of course, Jesus (I know this is implying He's God, as I believe He is, but His deity is not the point here so if you wanna debate that, start another thread) certainly helped Peter when he fell into the water and cried out "Lord, save me!" (Matt. 14:22-33) and Jesus did not rebuke him and say "believe harder and I'll save you!" Did Christ not also say "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"? (Matt. 11:28) Will He reject those who are tired, depressed, laboring --- those He does not see fit as "rightly believing"?
Or, on the other hand, is God merely a passive bystander (deism) looking on at us as we believe that we will receive abundance in our lives? This is what the law of believing suggests. It suggests that our believing is what causes results, nothing of God's doing. Or is it to say that God is some sort of cosmic philanthropist who gives us whatever we desire, as long as we believe we'll get it? What happened to Christ's response to the rich man who ran to Him and said "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." (Mark 10:17-31) Some translations say he went away crying because he was so rich. God wants us to live for Him, and He'll provide what we need. You don't need that new car or that new stereo system, and you will be healed of your wounds with time, God's will that all creation be redeemed will not fail. If there are any holy people in the world, they're monks. They give up everything for complete devotion to God. The law of believing directly contradicts Jesus' own words. You're trusting in your faith, not God.
3. The law of believing is unnecessary. You can believe positively or negatively if you want, there is no need of a "law" regarding which you believe. And besides, making it into a law puts too much definition on life, which as we all know is entirely random. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, and vice versa. Rain can be a good harvest, or it can be a depressing day inside your house. This law if it really exists, especially when comparing it to the law of gravity, makes "good" and "bad" definable. Something could be good to one person, it could be a positive outcome, and it could be bad, a negative outcome, to another person. Who decides what is positive and negative? God? But wait, I thought it was the believer who operates the law? Does this imply that the believer will also interpret what is good and what is bad in his life? Or just interpret everything as good or everything as bad?
There are so many things wrong with this law of believing. And besides, what's the fun in having this mortal existence be positive all the time? Why not try to mix it up a bit? I find a certain strange goodness in all my artwork, even that which is depressing. It makes me kind of sad, and so what if it does? In this fallen world, you cannot have faith and gladness without doubt and fear.
So enough of my rambling (but I do hope you read that). Why were Peter and Paul killed for their faith? It's a fallen world, s**t happens. God wants us to be happy and prosperous, yes, but He also lets these bad things happen for the strengthening of our faith. To die for your faith truly is an honor, it shows your devotion. They were happy and prosperous! Not in wealth, but in faith. Not saying death is good, but they're alive in heaven with all the other saints and angels, I assure you.
~Phil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points:
Now, the "law of believing" essentially states that positive belief = positive outcomes in life, and that negative belief = negative outcomes in life.
Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.
In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life.
With this, let me put this scenario into your head. Suppose things with Stephanie (my girlfriend who is involved with TWI) and I don't work out, but we wholeheartedly believed that they would. The law of believing, in this case, is negated.
Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle:
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question.
It's too black and white, the law of believing doesn't account for chance and probability in the world.
I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL.
If you really want to say that this law applies to something like physical death, then Peter and Paul, two of the greatest leaders of the early Church, one of them having directly been in contact with Christ Himself, would have had insufficient belief.
It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...?
I have to go now.. hopefully I can post more later but am busy today and am away from the computer on the weekends.
Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points:
Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.
In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life.
It sounds like this is just an attempt by Wierwille to account for probability and chance in life, which really can't be determined or controlled, or even speculated upon.
What is Available -- How does one determine what is available in their life, or what one needs and wants?
Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle:
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question.
First of all, I want to say that you took that verse out of its context. The passage, Matthew 18:15-20, is talking about discipline in the Church, and Christ giving authority to the apostles in dealing with disputes among members; not about two people believing and receiving what they wish from God. It is speaking of God clearing up disputes in the Church, of a sinner finding his way back to repentance and humility, of a lost sheep finding its way, with God's help, back to the rest of them. It is telling us that the Body of Christ should be in unity of the faith.
The promise to us is this: That God will save our life, if we lose our life (Matt. 16:24-28). God is very willing to save us, He wants us to be with Him. The truth of Christ's message isn't about getting what you want/need in the here-and-now (see Matt. 19:23, Luke 12:13-34), it is about striving to be with God, storing up our treasure in heaven by our faith in God alone and doing His commandments, having faith that He will provide what He wishes us to have, not what we think we need or want, and humbly submitting ourselves to Him and giving up everything for the one thing that matters in life over all other things: His will. It's not to say that He doesn't wish us to be happy, He does, but we shouldn't ever think we know His will or that we know what we need or want in our life. St. Isaiah the Prophet rightly asked "Who knows the Lord's mind...?" (Isaiah 40:13)
If it is His will for this to work, then so be it. I believe that things between she and I will work and so does she, but just because we believe it will work doesn't mean God doesn't have something else planned.
I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL.
Exactly, we don't know when this law will work and when it won't. Why bother mingling with this Law of Believing when you can just pray the Lord's Prayer, ask that His will be done, and leave it to Him to reveal to us what He wants while following Him in humility? St. Silouan of Athos once said, "When by the Holy Spirit I came to know our Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, my soul submitted to God and now I accept every affliction that befalls me, and say to myself, 'The Lord looks down on me, what is there to fear?'"
It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...?
They died having faith. Period. It doesn't matter if they knew they would die or not, they kept their faith even through death and that is what matters.
It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...?
They died having faith. Period. It doesn't matter if they knew they would die or not, they kept their faith even through death and that is what matters.
So going by what you just said...PFAL tells you to entirely miss the Bible's message and keep your head in the air concerned with semantics of language and with how an impersonal law can affect your immediate life and material prosperity? Can you say legalism? I find that ironic, since TWI followers are apparently encouraged that they are entirely forgiven and have no need to repent, therefore they are able to lead a very antinomian lifestyle.
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I think there is a difference between Wisdom and knowledge.
We can have knowledge on how to maintain your cars engine , but do we have the wisdom to do it ?
We have knowledge of good and evil... what we chose to do with that knowledge can either be wisdom or foolish.
the bible holy Spirit etc.gives us instruction about Gods will we may know it, but Wisdom is different Wisdom is the ability to trust and apply other principles beyond the knowing of the story or facts.
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brideofjc
THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE:
When one receives the Word of God not as the word of men but as it is in truth ,the Word of God it puts forth power it opperates, produces effect, in who? ...... those that don't believe? NO, in those that believe. Believing fulfills the condition. If it worked automatically then it would contradict the free will that God gave us. Those that believe what God's word says get the effect produced.
It is not the BELIEVING that is effectually working....Jesus said it best when he said in
Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? and why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.
Rather contradictory isn't it?
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brideofjc
True, but unbelievers sometime have more wisdom than believers, sad to say.
Luke 16:8
And the Lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
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WhiteDove
First I'll leave out Matthew 6:27 one verse at a time, I spoke as to Thessalonians. There is no contradiction there
1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing,
because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,
ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Exactly what it says the word of God works effectually in those that believe, it does not work in those that do not believe. the condition for it to work effectually is that it must be one must believe. Just like in the money example I gave if one does not believe that the money is there for the taking you will not reap the benefits. If one does not believe that the word works effectually in them then one will not reap the benefits, Believing is as I said not a cause it is not taking thought, or adding cubits it is recieving information from God either by written scripture or by revelation manifestations and accepting it as truth, and if need be acting on that truth.
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waysider
(I have modified some portions of your post in order to address them.)
Do you realize how amazingly restrictive that would have to be?
Going back to the "soft answer" example.
Suppose a person(we'll call him an Atheist for illustrative purposes.) in a customer service related field stumbles on the "soft answer" technique. He subconsciously keeps it in his cache of techniques because of its effectiveness.
He hasn't gotten this from written scripture nor has he received revelation. He simply stumbled on it through trial and error.
And yet, the technique produces results. Why? Does it work because he got it from scripture or received revelation or "operated" believing? No. It simply works because it is God's word. Even though said person does not believe it is God's word, it will still work. The only condition that needs to be met is that he must utilize it.
He could, in fact, simply view it as a wise way to do business. It will still work.
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WordWolf
I noticed that WD's answers are different than the twi answers.
In WD's answer, whether the information comes from God or not matters.
Not in the twi answer.
Here's what the Orange Book says on page 44.
"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about
people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next
year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to
win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,
God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be
accomodated."
Here's some of the Blue Book.
pg-43.
""You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to
yourself whatever you believe."
pg-44.
""Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are
anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."
And the Beige Book (GMW) pg-79.
"The great things of this world are available to men and women who know how to operate one of God's laws, namely the law of 'believing equals receiving.' And this law includes 'believing equals action.' Great accomplishments are not necessarily just for people with great intellectual ability; they are attainable by men and women who believe to receive. It doesn't hurt to have a few brains, but it doesn't help unless one operates this universal law of believing. Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God's Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike."
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JeffSjo
This is a very interesting discussion to me.
It could very well be placed in the doctrinal section as far as the discussion has gone, which is pretty far away from anything that pertains to just getting back from church IMO.
Still, as the doctines involved has either helped or hurt us at various times, I appreciate reading your various statements.
Dear Brideofjc,
Whitedove was not being infantile because when he/she answered me, He/she stated that I was not put on ignore. I was thinking that I might have been put on ignore by Whitedove because one of my first conversations here on this site involved me getting angry at Whitedove. I am encouraged to see that Whitedove answered my concerns directly and that was before your comments concerning childish behavior on whitedove's part.
Dear Whitedove,
I don't consider myself to be one who sacrifices truth to play peacekeeper, but everyone's certainly free to have their own opinion about me.
I do try to be one who looks at who I'm talking to and where they are coming from when I'm discussing a topic. I consider this to be part of "SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE". For me it seems to be the difference between being a bully and effectvely helping someone, or sometimes it is the difference between the conversation ending up productive or not. At the very least it has helped me not be mindlessly argumentative.
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WhiteDove
...... same answer as before
You are correct, thanks you read what I wrote
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brideofjc
It was tongue-in-cheek, Jeff
Blessings
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WordWolf
Ok, just so we're clear on that.
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skyrider
So.......wierwille's extremism is NOT representative in wd's post.....BECAUSE in accordance with scripture the statements in wierwille's orange book, blue book, and beige book are NOT TRUE..???
In other words.......wierwille's "law of believing" is off on another tangent and is FALSE PROPHECY.
Surprised?.......NOPE, not at all.
THAT'S WHY many of us are here at GS......to expose the evil and error in wierwille's ministry.....and since "the law of believing" was one of the main ingredients to wierwille's recipe for a "believer's success"........it leads back to wierwille and his FALSE DOCTRINES.
Thanks whitedove..........you get the Greasespotter Award this week.
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oldiesman
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points:
Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life.
Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle:
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question.
I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL.It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...?
I have to go now.. hopefully I can post more later but am busy today and am away from the computer on the weekends.
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Brushstroke
It sounds like this is just an attempt by Wierwille to account for probability and chance in life, which really can't be determined or controlled, or even speculated upon.
What is Available -- How does one determine what is available in their life, or what one needs and wants?
First of all, I want to say that you took that verse out of its context. The passage, Matthew 18:15-20, is talking about discipline in the Church, and Christ giving authority to the apostles in dealing with disputes among members; not about two people believing and receiving what they wish from God. It is speaking of God clearing up disputes in the Church, of a sinner finding his way back to repentance and humility, of a lost sheep finding its way, with God's help, back to the rest of them. It is telling us that the Body of Christ should be in unity of the faith.The promise to us is this: That God will save our life, if we lose our life (Matt. 16:24-28). God is very willing to save us, He wants us to be with Him. The truth of Christ's message isn't about getting what you want/need in the here-and-now (see Matt. 19:23, Luke 12:13-34), it is about striving to be with God, storing up our treasure in heaven by our faith in God alone and doing His commandments, having faith that He will provide what He wishes us to have, not what we think we need or want, and humbly submitting ourselves to Him and giving up everything for the one thing that matters in life over all other things: His will. It's not to say that He doesn't wish us to be happy, He does, but we shouldn't ever think we know His will or that we know what we need or want in our life. St. Isaiah the Prophet rightly asked "Who knows the Lord's mind...?" (Isaiah 40:13)
If it is His will for this to work, then so be it. I believe that things between she and I will work and so does she, but just because we believe it will work doesn't mean God doesn't have something else planned.
Exactly, we don't know when this law will work and when it won't. Why bother mingling with this Law of Believing when you can just pray the Lord's Prayer, ask that His will be done, and leave it to Him to reveal to us what He wants while following Him in humility? St. Silouan of Athos once said, "When by the Holy Spirit I came to know our Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, my soul submitted to God and now I accept every affliction that befalls me, and say to myself, 'The Lord looks down on me, what is there to fear?'"
They died having faith. Period. It doesn't matter if they knew they would die or not, they kept their faith even through death and that is what matters.
~Phil
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waysider
Ya know---
Something tells me you're gonna be just fine, kiddo.
:)
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T-Bone
I'm with you, Waysider.
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WordWolf
I like this guy.
Brushstroke, can you hang around with the old folks even after your adventure's played itself out?
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Brushstroke
Hah, I don't mind. :)
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skyrider
One person took pfal......one has NOT.
Can you tell the difference??
:)
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Brushstroke
So going by what you just said...PFAL tells you to entirely miss the Bible's message and keep your head in the air concerned with semantics of language and with how an impersonal law can affect your immediate life and material prosperity? Can you say legalism? I find that ironic, since TWI followers are apparently encouraged that they are entirely forgiven and have no need to repent, therefore they are able to lead a very antinomian lifestyle.
Well then...I'm glad I didn't take PFAL. :)
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frank123lol
No,They(wayers) want you to take The way of abundance and power.The new "improved"
pfal.
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Brushstroke
Is it not, in principle, essentially the same class?
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waysider
Sorry, Brush
I never took the "New And Improved" series so I can't compare the two.
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T-Bone
Yup…the response of the person without the PFAL-colored glasses makes sense and honors Scripture.
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cman
It's two very different classes imo.
Yet the same lack of substance.
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