This has been turned into being *all about oldies*, neatly diverting the topic from the tragedy and loss of Sandra Sullivan`s life. The despicable and malicious behavior of those whom should have helped her, and their damnable guilt.
In defense of the monsters that used her and pushed her over the edge....you must attack the one whom suffered. You accuse HER of being narcissistic and selfish :(
Damned right this stirs up outrage. I think that is what you intended though. I think that you want this so you can cry foul when you finally goad people into angry retorts.
Is it all a game? Do you actually care about the person or topic at hand? Or is this one more chance to smack down a poster or opinion that you don`t like?
I suppose that guess work and ability to *reach up into Daddy`s cookie jar* (Gawd what a stupid sounding analogy anyway) would be hampered by ones alcohol consumption, lust, arrogance that ones actions were acceptable in spite of scriptures saying contrary.
I`d say that we could judge fairly accurately what is in ones mind at the time perfectly clearly when one looks at the *fruit* the results of ones actions....which in this case happened to be the death of a trusting follower and employee.
I`ll stick my neck out here and *opine* that certainly some of the things going through HIS mind as is evidenced by his actions....were *how can I get in her pants* and *she needs a job here close so that I don`t have to travel to far to get it* and *holy crap the pathetic immature little witch couldn`t handle it...to bad so sad...now what do I say and do to cover my arse*? *I know, I will assassinate HER character an assigne blame to her for spiritual possession*
Maybe you knew a person who could handle it...who thought it was not a big deal...who were flattered at the attention of the mog....who felt special..We have heard that was the case at times.
That doesn`t make the betrayal of wierwille any less heinous, his actions any less abhorant, his guilt any less damnable. Not in THIS case...not in the cases where drugs were used to incapacitate...where peoples lives were savaged when he was thwarted.
These were not the actions of a man of the spirit.
These were not the actions of a true minister.
These were not the actions of a brother in Christ.
These were not the actions of even a decent human being.
Back a couple years OM was starting to act more human but recently has become more mean and cruel which is very disapointing(something in the koolaid I think). Don't worry have permanently blocked him and Mike(haven't heard from Mc what's his name in over a year). Maybe Mike and Oldies ought to audition for a Geico comercial.
Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more personal insults. Please note:
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In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
I pray Sand&a's family never had to hear false accusations against her and that they enjoy their memories of her. I'm so sorry for the pain she had to be in to make such a decision and that there was nobody she felt she could trust to help her through healing from the abuse she survived in twi.
Rest in peace, dear daughter of the most high God. I believe that one day Jesus will come back and take you to be with him and God for all of eternity. Rest well, dear girl.
The posts by oldies were predictable...His previous posts on other threads have established his "blaming the victims" attitude that he so insistantly holds on to...
...but his posts serve a purpose...because it's a reminder to all of us that we live in a society that does not always protect people from abusive situations...it underscores the importance of properly educating people and being on guard against those who close their eyes to these horrible situations.
It should be clear to everyone that the top leaders of twi failed to conduct themselves as Christian ministers...Their abusive treatment towards others left thousands of people "damaged" and some of them lost their lives as a direct result of being involved with these men...
The truth be told...the pile of money that twi sits on today came from an abusive system that cared nothing about the people who had given so much to build it...and they cared nothing about the people that died as a result of what they done to them...
The posts by oldies were predictable...His previous posts on other threads have established his "blaming the victims" attitude that he so insistantly holds on to...
Sorry, blaming Dr. Wierwille & Howard for this terrible act is like accusing them of murder, and its wrong. People should be held responsible for their actions, not someone else's. A person commits suicide, you don't blame people who have no knowledge or control over that act. That's not a blame-the-victim attitude, its just plain logic and fairness. Forget Dr. & Howard for a moment ... try putting yourself in the shoes of someone being accused of causing someone else's suicide ... something that was never intended, known about, or consented to. Is it fair to make that accusation?
The truth be told...the pile of money that twi sits on today came from an abusive system that cared nothing about the people who had given so much to build it...and they cared nothing about the people that died as a result of what they done to them...
...blood money.
I sincerely believe those who covered it all up have as much as or even more blood on their hands than the perpetrators.
Sorry, blaming Dr. Wierwille & Howard for this terrible act is like accusing them of murder, and its wrong. People should be held responsible for their actions, not someone else's. A person commits suicide, you don't blame people who have no knowledge or control over that act. That's not a blame-the-victim attitude, its just plain logic and fairness. Forget Dr. & Howard for a moment ... try putting yourself in the shoes of someone being accused of causing someone else's suicide ... something that was never intended, known about, or consented to. Is it fair to make that accusation?
Maybe my memory is slipping.
Wasn't it stated that Del confronted the BOT to no avail?
If not murder, negligent homicide, Damned right. That is why these men are regarded with such absolute disgust.
Oh NO oldies....it wasn`t so bad at all...just two nasty old men both married....masquerading as ministers...pretending to care, offering spiritual guidance from the man of God for the 20th century....offering the job of a lifetime serving God...promise all the answeres to life and Godliness...peace....they entice, manipulate ensnare and have sex with an obviously vulnerable young woman....She is used like so much trash and when she can`t handle it...oh well her fault ...now we do damage control.
Do you think that they were one bit sorry? Did they apologize? Did they repent?? Well if they had changed their behavior... I could even give you the point of not knowing what was in their minds...But history shows that they changed nothing...they just found more young women...some believed what they were told...others unwilling needed the extre *persuasion* of drugging...some whom refused to be punished by throing them off of the wow field and turn thier family and friends against them...in as low and vindictive a manner as I have ever seen.
Sure, sure, the guys are fallable....innocent little lambs..mustn`t judge them to harshly...that way we can kind of let ourselves and those we love off the hook for the parts we played in destroying lives doesn`t it??
*Stupiddamnedsheep* couldn`t handle it. That let`s everybody off the hook and we can walk away with our consciences intact :(
God, I have more respect for the criminal that takes aim with a gun and pulls the trigger, They are certainly more honest.
Wasn't it stated that Del confronted the BOT to no avail?
Del said: " I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail".
What specifically was told the BOT, wasn't revealed. It wasn't revealed what went on behind the scenes, what thoughts were going through her mind, what thoughts were going through the BOT's mind, and what action was taken, if any. So speculating that VP and the BOT had knowledge of an impending suicide, is folly.
I just have one question...If this tragedy with Sandra Ann Sullivan went down the way Karl Kahler said Del Duncan said it went down---which was sometime in 1974--why did Mr. Duncan continue to take on prominent way ministry positions for years after 1974?...I know he coordinated the family corps as late as 1977 and was either working security or as a bodyguard at PFAL '77...Maybe the question is irrelevant, but the whole basis for this now six page thread dicussing murder, manslaughter and the like seems to be that one paragraph from Del Duncan, who at the time didn't think it tragic enough to blow any whistles or sever his ties with VP or Howard...
I just have one question...If this tragedy with Sandra Ann Sullivan went down the way Karl Kahler said Del Duncan said it went down---which was sometime in 1974--why did Mr. Duncan continue to take on prominent way ministry positions for years after 1974?...I know he coordinated the family corps as late as 1977 and was either working security or as a bodyguard at PFAL '77...Maybe the question is irrelevant, but the whole basis for this now six page thread dicussing murder, manslaughter and the like seems to be that one paragraph from Del Duncan, who at the time didn't think it tragic enough to blow any whistles or sever his ties with VP or Howard...
Only Del could answer that question and, unfortunately, we no longer have the luxury of being able to ask him.
Del Duncan indeed left the ministry early on, perhaps someone who was around at HQ at the time can post more details as to why, leaving had to be a big deal, I do know he was a very respected and beloved leader.
Forget Dr. & Howard for a moment ... try putting yourself in the shoes of someone being accused of causing someone else's suicide ... something that was never intended, known about, or consented to. Is it fair to make that accusation?
Forget Vic and Howie for a moment?...try putting myself in the shoes of whom?...the scenario you describe is not the scenario that we are discussing. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say:
...try putting yourself in the shoes of someone IN AN AUTHORITATIVE POSITION SUCH AS TEACHER OR COUNSELOR being accused of causing someone else's suicide IN WHOM YOU SEXUALLY ABUSED...something that was never intended, BUT HAPPENED ANYWAY...
I would never be in such a position to start with...but I can only imagine the feelings of guilt would be devasting...of course, from all indications, Wierwille never felt a hint of remorse for his actions...he was sociopathic in his victimizing of people.
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
rascal
This has been turned into being *all about oldies*, neatly diverting the topic from the tragedy and loss of Sandra Sullivan`s life. The despicable and malicious behavior of those whom should have helped her, and their damnable guilt.
In defense of the monsters that used her and pushed her over the edge....you must attack the one whom suffered. You accuse HER of being narcissistic and selfish :(
Damned right this stirs up outrage. I think that is what you intended though. I think that you want this so you can cry foul when you finally goad people into angry retorts.
Is it all a game? Do you actually care about the person or topic at hand? Or is this one more chance to smack down a poster or opinion that you don`t like?
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rascal
I suppose that guess work and ability to *reach up into Daddy`s cookie jar* (Gawd what a stupid sounding analogy anyway) would be hampered by ones alcohol consumption, lust, arrogance that ones actions were acceptable in spite of scriptures saying contrary.
I`d say that we could judge fairly accurately what is in ones mind at the time perfectly clearly when one looks at the *fruit* the results of ones actions....which in this case happened to be the death of a trusting follower and employee.
I`ll stick my neck out here and *opine* that certainly some of the things going through HIS mind as is evidenced by his actions....were *how can I get in her pants* and *she needs a job here close so that I don`t have to travel to far to get it* and *holy crap the pathetic immature little witch couldn`t handle it...to bad so sad...now what do I say and do to cover my arse*? *I know, I will assassinate HER character an assigne blame to her for spiritual possession*
Sound close?
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rascal
Maybe you knew a person who could handle it...who thought it was not a big deal...who were flattered at the attention of the mog....who felt special..We have heard that was the case at times.
That doesn`t make the betrayal of wierwille any less heinous, his actions any less abhorant, his guilt any less damnable. Not in THIS case...not in the cases where drugs were used to incapacitate...where peoples lives were savaged when he was thwarted.
These were not the actions of a man of the spirit.
These were not the actions of a true minister.
These were not the actions of a brother in Christ.
These were not the actions of even a decent human being.
What does that leave?
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waysider
Wierwille was a sham.
He knew less about spiritual matters than the average "pet rock".
Looking back on it, I'm surprised some some irate husband or father didn't blow the S.O.B's brains out.
Maybe he had people threaten to do just that.
Why else would someone who is so "spiritually perceptive" need to surround himself with armed body guards?
Edited to point out that those things have all been said before by others.
I just "put them all together" like they haven't been put together since the last time they were all put together
;)
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wing
holy smoke, Oldies.
You sure post like a product of the way international.
The recent post of yours (#101) brings to my mind other wierwille follies.
Like old phrases about the word fitting with 'mathematical exactness,
and scientific precision' which I sense in your logic. Maybe that
'hand in a glove' thing too.
do you have an answer for everything? If this, =principle 1? If that, = principle 2? etc?
It all seems to add up, at least for you. Got those spiritual calculations all ready.
too bad God doesn't work that way. No formula gonna contain Him.
but where's the heart? vic mussed that up too, banking so much on his 'laws' of
this or that. then at the end, vp even complained about his own ministry
having no heart. if he was right about anything, he was right about that. no heart.
Here we are, discussing the death of a follower of the way. There should
be a memorial to honor such a victim. instead when I read your posts I see holy smoke.
like a screen, a distraction, or a deception, a refocus of attention to any place but on what
goodness may have been in the life that was Sandra Ann Sullivans.
no heart Oldies. if ya got it, ya haven't let it be seen. calculations, formulas, assigning
blame, or assigning responsibities. sorta cold.
I used to live and work at the way international; and I'll admit that I used to bleed green like that too.
Maybe you still do.
It was all supposed to add up, but it don't. It was broke to begin with. I think you're kidding yourself if you really
think that it works. PALF is a scam, was a scam. But it was a beautiful shell game. :(
maybe you should have your own thread.
wing
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excathedra
damn it damn it damn it damn it
i know what went on behind the scenes
bastuds
those losers must have felt like they hit the lottery
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rascal
It is a cruelty and orneriness that goes beyond ones ability to comprehend :(
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excathedra
dear oldies, if you have a shread of decency, just say rest in peaceful sleep sandy, and never come back on this thread
okay ? is that too difficult ?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Back a couple years OM was starting to act more human but recently has become more mean and cruel which is very disapointing(something in the koolaid I think). Don't worry have permanently blocked him and Mike(haven't heard from Mc what's his name in over a year). Maybe Mike and Oldies ought to audition for a Geico comercial.
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GarthP2000
He sure as hell gives an indication as to what Oldies 'god' is really all about, doesn't he?
<_<
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oldiesman
Dear Fellow Greasespot Posters,
Please abide by the forum rules and refrain from personal attacks. Lack of respect and insults directed at fellow posters will inevitably lead to more and more personal insults. Please note:
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rascal
Apparently so Ex...apparently so :(
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bowtwi
I pray Sand&a's family never had to hear false accusations against her and that they enjoy their memories of her. I'm so sorry for the pain she had to be in to make such a decision and that there was nobody she felt she could trust to help her through healing from the abuse she survived in twi.
Rest in peace, dear daughter of the most high God. I believe that one day Jesus will come back and take you to be with him and God for all of eternity. Rest well, dear girl.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The posts by oldies were predictable...His previous posts on other threads have established his "blaming the victims" attitude that he so insistantly holds on to...
...but his posts serve a purpose...because it's a reminder to all of us that we live in a society that does not always protect people from abusive situations...it underscores the importance of properly educating people and being on guard against those who close their eyes to these horrible situations.
It should be clear to everyone that the top leaders of twi failed to conduct themselves as Christian ministers...Their abusive treatment towards others left thousands of people "damaged" and some of them lost their lives as a direct result of being involved with these men...
The truth be told...the pile of money that twi sits on today came from an abusive system that cared nothing about the people who had given so much to build it...and they cared nothing about the people that died as a result of what they done to them...
...blood money.
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oldiesman
Sorry, blaming Dr. Wierwille & Howard for this terrible act is like accusing them of murder, and its wrong. People should be held responsible for their actions, not someone else's. A person commits suicide, you don't blame people who have no knowledge or control over that act. That's not a blame-the-victim attitude, its just plain logic and fairness. Forget Dr. & Howard for a moment ... try putting yourself in the shoes of someone being accused of causing someone else's suicide ... something that was never intended, known about, or consented to. Is it fair to make that accusation?
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Ham
I sincerely believe those who covered it all up have as much as or even more blood on their hands than the perpetrators.
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waysider
Maybe my memory is slipping.
Wasn't it stated that Del confronted the BOT to no avail?
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rascal
If not murder, negligent homicide, Damned right. That is why these men are regarded with such absolute disgust.
Oh NO oldies....it wasn`t so bad at all...just two nasty old men both married....masquerading as ministers...pretending to care, offering spiritual guidance from the man of God for the 20th century....offering the job of a lifetime serving God...promise all the answeres to life and Godliness...peace....they entice, manipulate ensnare and have sex with an obviously vulnerable young woman....She is used like so much trash and when she can`t handle it...oh well her fault ...now we do damage control.
Do you think that they were one bit sorry? Did they apologize? Did they repent?? Well if they had changed their behavior... I could even give you the point of not knowing what was in their minds...But history shows that they changed nothing...they just found more young women...some believed what they were told...others unwilling needed the extre *persuasion* of drugging...some whom refused to be punished by throing them off of the wow field and turn thier family and friends against them...in as low and vindictive a manner as I have ever seen.
Sure, sure, the guys are fallable....innocent little lambs..mustn`t judge them to harshly...that way we can kind of let ourselves and those we love off the hook for the parts we played in destroying lives doesn`t it??
*Stupiddamnedsheep* couldn`t handle it. That let`s everybody off the hook and we can walk away with our consciences intact :(
God, I have more respect for the criminal that takes aim with a gun and pulls the trigger, They are certainly more honest.
What wierwille and Allen did was worse, imo
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oldiesman
Del said: " I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail".
What specifically was told the BOT, wasn't revealed. It wasn't revealed what went on behind the scenes, what thoughts were going through her mind, what thoughts were going through the BOT's mind, and what action was taken, if any. So speculating that VP and the BOT had knowledge of an impending suicide, is folly.
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simonzelotes
I just have one question...If this tragedy with Sandra Ann Sullivan went down the way Karl Kahler said Del Duncan said it went down---which was sometime in 1974--why did Mr. Duncan continue to take on prominent way ministry positions for years after 1974?...I know he coordinated the family corps as late as 1977 and was either working security or as a bodyguard at PFAL '77...Maybe the question is irrelevant, but the whole basis for this now six page thread dicussing murder, manslaughter and the like seems to be that one paragraph from Del Duncan, who at the time didn't think it tragic enough to blow any whistles or sever his ties with VP or Howard...
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waysider
Only Del could answer that question and, unfortunately, we no longer have the luxury of being able to ask him.
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now I see
Del Duncan indeed left the ministry early on, perhaps someone who was around at HQ at the time can post more details as to why, leaving had to be a big deal, I do know he was a very respected and beloved leader.
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excathedra
honestly simon, i don't know
i don't know if i trust karl
and i think del was pretty f'd up (me as well)
BUT what i know to be true is still true
and that includes a suicidal college friend of mine who was part of the "got me in the word" she went on a hush-hush trip to HQ in '74/'75
her breakdown thoughts were due to doing wierwille and allen on hunting trips to pa
could give more details but not in the mood
i love you, btw
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GrouchoMarxJr
Forget Vic and Howie for a moment?...try putting myself in the shoes of whom?...the scenario you describe is not the scenario that we are discussing. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say:
...try putting yourself in the shoes of someone IN AN AUTHORITATIVE POSITION SUCH AS TEACHER OR COUNSELOR being accused of causing someone else's suicide IN WHOM YOU SEXUALLY ABUSED...something that was never intended, BUT HAPPENED ANYWAY...
I would never be in such a position to start with...but I can only imagine the feelings of guilt would be devasting...of course, from all indications, Wierwille never felt a hint of remorse for his actions...he was sociopathic in his victimizing of people.
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