I think judgments also should be made on logic and facts, not emotion. Saying John Doe was 100% responsible for Jane Doe's suicide when Jane Doe performed the act, is not logical, factual, compassionate or loving. I suppose its just like accusing someone of murder who didn't do it. Accuse them of what they are guilty for, yes, but not wholly for someone else's suicide.
Perhaps I should have made my implication a bit clearer.
I did not mean to imply that The Way or VPW were 100%(wholly) responsible for the incidents being discussed.
However, one would have to be blatantly remiss to ignore their contributory involvement. Furthermore, one would have to be callously aloof to suggest that the victims themselves are to be solely blamed. The time has come to stop denying the diabolically pivotal function that Wierwille served in the debacle that came to be known as TWI.
i think that a case can be made in a court of law that vpw (and others like him) were indeed 100% responsible...
a case can be made based on both proximate legal cause and cause-in-fact...
PROXIMATE/LEGAL CAUSE (OF INJURY/DAMAGE) - If it played any part, no matter how small, in bringing about the injury or damage. Therefore, even if the violation operated in combination with the act of another, or in combination with some other cause, the violation was a proximate/legal cause of the injury or damage if it played any part, no matter how small, in bringing about the injury or damage.
CAUSE-IN-FACT is determined by the "but-for" test: but for the action, the result would not have happened. For example, but for running the red light, the collision would not have occurred.
BUT FOR the actions of vpw/twi, the person would NOT have committed suicide...
personally, i have experienced this level of despair...
at the time, i was NOT involved with the "way" ministry, but i wonder what would have happened if i was...
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
For Dennis Prager (whoever he is) to make such a blanket statement leads me to think he's pretty self absorbed and narcissistic to presume such a thing.
I think maybe Dennis Prager (whoever he is) is someone to avoid in ones daily listening regimen.
Who the hell is this pretentious halfwit Prager? And who cares? Who made him an expert on what is in the souls of other people he has never even met?
*********
In my opinion he didn't give it a thought... I don't believe he thought he was doing anything wrong, so I don't believe he thought he had anything at all to do with the suicide. It is just not in a predator's mind to link themselves to actual consequences
Wierwille had already given himself the easy out, in his distorted thinking anyone who committed suicide to him was "possessed" by some invisible boogaboo he made up. Wierwille had nothing to do with it, in his own mind was "righteous now" regardless of any of his heinous and irresponsible acts. His whole backwater mix and match theology was set up so there was no personal responsibility, "no condemnation", no reflection, no doubt, a near complete detachment from cause and effect, and little or no conscience
hi fellow greasespotters!..............this was posted on another thread earlier this evening.................i think the topic of suicide is important enough to warrant re-posting it on this thread also..............it is equally appropriate on this thread as on the other, and some of the same posters have posted on both threads........so, here goes......
"the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations.
the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide.
now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"!
now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!"
from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace."
One of things that is doubly disconcerting to me was this happened to Sandra Ann Sullivan so early on in twi's history, it was in 1974, she had been with veepee and then passed to Howard before she became vp's secretary.   So early on this predatory deviancy was being practiced and fine tuned by VP and Howard.  The record in Karl's book states Del Dunc*n even took this issue to the trustees at this time, but with no avail. Â
The more that's uncovered about veepee's practices, the more cynical I get over whether he did really believe in God and the bible or was the bible simply his schtick to get the money, power and the adulation in order to indulge his appetites? Â
It appears that veepee was a bottomless pit ...... it must have broken the hearts of the real men and women of God along the way who were victims or tried to help the victims back in the day. Â
I have been thinking about this today while I worked.
I kept thinking of my wow sister, a vivacious, pretty girl. I read about her after our wow year. How she was promiscuous. The guy telling the story seemed to think it was all good. What these guys who were passing her around didn`t realize was that she had been raped since child hood. She didn`t need more guys just using her and moving on. What she needed was kindness and compassion, She was hurt and needed to be healed...she needed her brothers in christ to love her with the love of God and help her to heal....not to be used yet again.
I heard later that she ended up institutionalized.
Now...back to the person that we are discussing on this thread.....
The thing is...this poor girl looked to vp for the *answers* that he claimed that he could give. How desperately must she have wanted to believe that he could provide what he promised. How must she have yearned for peace...to believe that if she followed his instructions that she could have all of the answers that she was desperately seeking.
No young woman with healthy self esteem wants to be an old mans play thing to be used and passed around to his buddies. Even if she were willing, even if no drugs were involved, I don`t care if she was doing back flips naked across the lawn.....wierwille had a responsibility as her pastor to take care of her, to recognize her vulnerability and to minister to her needs...NOT to use her for his selfish needs and destroy what little was left in her to hope.
He killed her, and then needed to make her look bad ... so it would minimalise his guilt and culpability.
Thanks Don't Worry Be Happy for your jam-packed insightful posts!
Regarding this thread I've been thinking about a certain verse:
Matthew 18:7 NASB
Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
…We don't really know what impact a situation will have on another person's belief system. According to Jesus' words the person who puts the stumbling block in another's way shares in the culpability.
I don't think suicide is the correct response to a problem, of course – but knowing the treacherous nature of certain leaders and the debilitating mindset of a typical TWI follower, I often wonder how much of the problem a suicidal person dealt with was ministry-related. I'm thinking about my WOW year …One of the WOWs in our branch committed suicide……Since leaving TWI a long time ago, I've tossed that devil-spirit-fixation-mindset – and take a compassionate approach to the human condition.
There are people who have no ability to empathise with others. VP could have been such a person. And certainly those who worshipped him and tried to be like him made themselves worse people than they were to start. Plus, having VPW characteristics was a 'leadership' quality, and rewarded in TWI, because they were bold and did the reproof/spiritual anger stuff. Easier to treat people that way if you have no empathy for them.
I think that the mog thought Sandy should just renew her mind and obey.
And then there's the attitude - common amongst those who still cleave to some basic WayWorld tenets (and quite plainly demonstrated here)- that all of life can be boiled down to a few simplistic "principles". I think that these are then utilized in much the same manner as a rabbit's foot, a thumb to suck, or a pet "blankie".
Is there a troubling aspect of life that doesn't fit with your preconceived notions? Well, it must all be because somebody wasn't following Godly "principles". A young kid becomes so enamored of cult life that she abandons family and friends and becomes cloistered within a group of psychopaths in training? She wasn't being circumspect like The Bible admonishes. She gets raped by a supposed Clergyman? Ah, it's her fault. She wasn't utilizing the proper keys in her life. The same Clergy screws with her head enough that she commits suicide? Same thing. Her fault.
The pat answer, the simplistic notion, the concept that all of life's ills can be avoided by simple adherence to utterly unproveable "keys" must be so comforting to some that the thought of life without them must be just too scary to imagine.
Hopefully for them, real life will never intrude on their wonderland of make believe. It can be so disheartening when that happens...
The pat answer, the simplistic notion, the concept that all of life's ills can be avoided by simple adherence to utterly unproveable "keys"
Ah yes, the old "keys and principles" doctrine. Bequeathed to us from the enlightenment, it asserts that all of reality is a mechanism of cause and effect. It was evidenced in physics (Newton's Principia), economics (Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations), and philosophy (Kant's Critique of Pure Reason). Success in any area of life is garnered by the application of principles that work with a "mathematical exactness". Failure in any area of life is achieved by non application.
Although these men were more brilliant than I could ever hope to be, (and their discoveries have aided mankind ever since), the revolutionary worldview they brought did seem to promise that intelligence, labor and resources alone would stoke the machine of reality and guarantee a positive outcome.
It's interesting that their successors, (Einstein et al) once again were forced to grapple with the notion of mystery and chance.
I think this mechanistic, "keys and principles" way of thinking appealed to a generation of idealistic young people to whom formulas for happiness had not yet been challenged by the vicissitudes of life. For the most part we had not yet been faced with the big question: "Why?"
...Some powerful and heartfelt posts...The subject of suicide is intense and can often be personal. I think that life is a precious thing. It's fleeting and it's profound...To have disregard for another human being...to use them and not care what happens to them...watching them kill themselves and then moving on to another victim...This is the picture that I see...
oldies...If you punch someone in the nose and they cry out...is it their fault for crying out?...I mean, they have freedom of will and should be able to control their own actions...right?...and if they DO cry out it was their own decision and therefore their own fault ...right? :blink:
To have disregard for another human being...to use them and not care what happens to them...watching them kill themselves and then moving on to another victim...This is the picture that I see...
And this is the picture I see also.
You'd think after driving at least one to suicide, and God only knows how many more to madness, you'd think someone who was rational or sane would get a clue..
This issue is so clear ... IF vp or howard had sex with this woman, they were predators ... if she committed suicide and anyone cannot see the guilt of those predators ... especially as those predators were defensive and showed no remorse ... then anyone defending those that used their power over that woman for their own lusts ... is little better than the predators ...
Ministers are supposed to heal the sick ... not ravage them and then condemn them for their weakness ... it does not get much more vile than that .. does it? Unless you consider those that defend those in power that took advantage of the weak ...
I really don't see how anyone can be so sick as to defend vp or ha's actions ... even for a non-christian ... I've seen professionals moved to another city for flirting and buying a single co-worker gal flowers ... but in wayworld .. rape or sex is OK, and if she commits suicide ... they wash their hands of the matter ... and humans post here defending that?
WOW .... scum of the earth .... holy cow ... or should i say ... sacred cow ... they must defend their god vpw :blink:
For many reasons I think this book is worth mentioning on this thread
The Sociopath Next Door
from the book jacket:
Who is the devil you know?
Is it your lying, cheating ex-husband?
Your sadistic high school gym teacher?
Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings?
The colleague who stole your idea and passed it off as her own?
In the pages of The Sociopath Next Door, you will realize that your ex was not just misunderstood. He's a sociopath. And your boss, teacher, and colleague? They may be sociopaths too.
We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath. They could be your colleague, your neighbor, even family. And they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt.
How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They're more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others' suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.
The fact is, we all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already. Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know—someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for—is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.
It is the ruthless versus the rest of us, and The Sociopath Next Door will show you how to recognize and defeat the devil you know.
That sounds like an important and interesting book, that I plan on reading, but how on earth did she come up with that 1 in 25 is a sociopath statistic-especially if they're hidden ?
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Watered Garden
My own personal opinion is that Mr. Prager's opinion is shallow, judgmental, and ill-informed. I've never seriously tried to take my own life, but I've been in situations where I felt like I should.
Ham
What I can't understand is how someone could sink as low as to name their offspring after him..
Ham
Hmm.. like the Boys from Brazil I guess.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film) Same here..
waysider
Perhaps I should have made my implication a bit clearer.
I did not mean to imply that The Way or VPW were 100%(wholly) responsible for the incidents being discussed.
However, one would have to be blatantly remiss to ignore their contributory involvement. Furthermore, one would have to be callously aloof to suggest that the victims themselves are to be solely blamed. The time has come to stop denying the diabolically pivotal function that Wierwille served in the debacle that came to be known as TWI.
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jen-o
i think that a case can be made in a court of law that vpw (and others like him) were indeed 100% responsible...
a case can be made based on both proximate legal cause and cause-in-fact...
BUT FOR the actions of vpw/twi, the person would NOT have committed suicide...
personally, i have experienced this level of despair...
at the time, i was NOT involved with the "way" ministry, but i wonder what would have happened if i was...
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Ron G.
For Dennis Prager (whoever he is) to make such a blanket statement leads me to think he's pretty self absorbed and narcissistic to presume such a thing.
I think maybe Dennis Prager (whoever he is) is someone to avoid in ones daily listening regimen.
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oldiesman
Yes, let's all apply this one.
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Watered Garden
Oldiesman, you've got a Teflon brain.
The real point just slides right off.
WG
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mstar1
Who the hell is this pretentious halfwit Prager? And who cares? Who made him an expert on what is in the souls of other people he has never even met?
*********
Wierwille had already given himself the easy out, in his distorted thinking anyone who committed suicide to him was "possessed" by some invisible boogaboo he made up. Wierwille had nothing to do with it, in his own mind was "righteous now" regardless of any of his heinous and irresponsible acts. His whole backwater mix and match theology was set up so there was no personal responsibility, "no condemnation", no reflection, no doubt, a near complete detachment from cause and effect, and little or no conscience
In the bible its called a seered conscience....
&^%$ Him
Rest In Peace
Sandra Ann Sullivan
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi fellow greasespotters!..............this was posted on another thread earlier this evening.................i think the topic of suicide is important enough to warrant re-posting it on this thread also..............it is equally appropriate on this thread as on the other, and some of the same posters have posted on both threads........so, here goes......
"the facts are, that neither dennis prager nor the poster who quotes him, are professionally qualified to offer anything but their own uneducated opinions as to the causes of and responsibility for the act of suicide committed by anyone!......of course, they are entitled to voice their opinions, which, imho, displays their abject ignorance of the topic. even if either of them has "experienced" being depressed enough to commit suicide, their opinions still reflect a lack of understanding of any of the latest professional, psychiatric data concerning suicide, as well as the current, proven and accepted treatment regimens effective in the professional psycholgical and/or medical care of patients suffering suicidal ideations.
the "reasons", or "causes" of suicide are as varied and as numerous as the volume of suicide cases!........the common denominator is the dysfunctional, thought processes of the various classifications of depression which are "driving" the individual into further "feelings"/thoughts of shame, guilt, hopelessness, worthlessness or of being a helpless "burden" to those who matter most to the individual.........dysfunctional thoughts/thinking can be caused psychologically, physiologically, electrochemically, or, most typically, by a deadly combination of all three factors.........the best care involves all professionals in the healthcare delivery system trained to work the "team" approach for each individual patient, providing individualized, and specific care utilizing all the psycholgical, medical and biochemical tools available to provide the highest quality of care available for each patient..........the prevention and/or treatment of suicide is an area filled with numerous, ongoing studies, as well as numerous completed studies with volumes of data and research. it is a widespread healthcare issue, and depression itself is at what epidemiologists would term, "epidemic" proportions in both the united states as well as eurasia.........opinions such as those attributed to prager are nowhere near "the cutting edge" as to the latest understanding and treatment/prevention of suicide.
now regarding vic's "opinions" of suicide and those who committed the act, he had a magnificent, self-contained "understanding" of suicide, and taught it openly and often in the advanced class..........SURPRISE! SURPRISE! suicide is a "devil spirit"!........a person who kills her/himself has got to be "possessed"!..........the ultimate vic "ewwwww factor"!.......by whatever "weakness" the individual allowed in his/her life, that individual "opened the trapdoor" to his/her mind and let that damn spirit in!....simply could not or would not "renew" the mind well enough to keep that "trapdoor" shut!!.......despite the fact that the various individuals had enjoyed vic's or king okie's "personal ministry" more profoundly than thousands of other more "deserving" believers, all that "special love and sauce", and that privileged "private teaching" was not enough for that poor soul to "believe big enough to keep that devil spirit out"!
now who's "responsible" for the suicide??............certainly not vic or his wickedly accomplished pattern of sexual and spiritual abuse!........as a matter of fact, not even the victim is responsible for the act itself, 'cuz "da debbil made him/her do it"!!..........possession meant "no free will", since the possessed one is totally controlled by the devil spirit.......but, if it was'nt for the self-willed "weakness" or "spiritual immaturity" of the possessed one, that dirty devil spirit would never have had a "home"!!.......that "contaminated believer" was now just a "vehicle of the adversary" who could'nt rise to the level of believing to keep him/herself "spiritually clean"!.......he/she could have!.......he/she should have!.........but, once "possessed", the person is just a body with a devil spirit controlling it!.........again, that "ewwwwwww factor", which certainly did not promote interaction with the "possessed", but rather avoidance, or just plain disgust!!............like saying the "possessed" deserved, or earned his/her fate!..........does not leave much room for proper care or "ministering" for the poor victim, does it?.......let alone any concern whatsoever on the part of the mogs whose personal perversions and moral depravity set the entire series of events in motion!.........sandra ann sullivan???........oh, she was just some "possessed loser" running around hq!.........obviously you can't listen to, or believe anything she might have said!......it is beneath the mog to deal in any way with the words or works of devil spirits!!!............in the words of the church lady, "HOW CONVENIENT!"
from what i know firsthand about the contributing factors and causes of suicide in twi, as well as the professional training and expereience i have in caring for and treating suicidal patients, vic and the okie king are just as culpable in the events and thinking that led to the "devil spirit possession" which "caused" the suicides as are the believers who took their own lives!.......in order to cover their tracks, they outright lied, (bore false witness against their "neighbor"), and then totally defamed, isolated, and discredited their victims with a liberal application of that "ewwwwwww factor" of devil spirit possession!..........that attitude was as helpful to their victims as dennis prager's would be to suicide patients today!.........seems like some folks just can't deal with THE FACTS about vic's "personal ministry" of alcoholic, sociopathic, narcissistic, sexual predation, or his mean-spirited method of dealing with those for whom his "personal ministry" "opened the trapdoor" to devil spirit possession!!......it's good to be "king", eh?...............................peace."
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now I see
One of things that is doubly disconcerting to me was this happened to Sandra Ann Sullivan so early on in twi's history, it was in 1974, she had been with veepee and then passed to Howard before she became vp's secretary.   So early on this predatory deviancy was being practiced and fine tuned by VP and Howard.  The record in Karl's book states Del Dunc*n even took this issue to the trustees at this time, but with no avail. Â
The more that's uncovered about veepee's practices, the more cynical I get over whether he did really believe in God and the bible or was the bible simply his schtick to get the money, power and the adulation in order to indulge his appetites? Â
It appears that veepee was a bottomless pit ...... it must have broken the hearts of the real men and women of God along the way who were victims or tried to help the victims back in the day. Â
Very sad indeed.
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wing
I'm beginning to loathe my memories of TWI more than I ever have.
This stuff got swept under the rug. Even once is too much. But it happened again and again.
No prayer, no memorial, no apologies. And this was supposed to be a church?
Instead, that elitist-ego-MOG mentality to cover his own a$$.
I'm gonna go pay some tribute time in the memorium threads...
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penworks
Agree.
And IMO, Dontworrybehappy summed it all up.
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Yanagisawa
Oldiesman:
Surely you write "in character" to represent a certain stance.
Right?
No one could be that callous in real life.
Right?
You couldn't possibly be serious. Am I right?
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rascal
I have been thinking about this today while I worked.
I kept thinking of my wow sister, a vivacious, pretty girl. I read about her after our wow year. How she was promiscuous. The guy telling the story seemed to think it was all good. What these guys who were passing her around didn`t realize was that she had been raped since child hood. She didn`t need more guys just using her and moving on. What she needed was kindness and compassion, She was hurt and needed to be healed...she needed her brothers in christ to love her with the love of God and help her to heal....not to be used yet again.
I heard later that she ended up institutionalized.
Now...back to the person that we are discussing on this thread.....
The thing is...this poor girl looked to vp for the *answers* that he claimed that he could give. How desperately must she have wanted to believe that he could provide what he promised. How must she have yearned for peace...to believe that if she followed his instructions that she could have all of the answers that she was desperately seeking.
No young woman with healthy self esteem wants to be an old mans play thing to be used and passed around to his buddies. Even if she were willing, even if no drugs were involved, I don`t care if she was doing back flips naked across the lawn.....wierwille had a responsibility as her pastor to take care of her, to recognize her vulnerability and to minister to her needs...NOT to use her for his selfish needs and destroy what little was left in her to hope.
He killed her, and then needed to make her look bad ... so it would minimalise his guilt and culpability.
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T-Bone
Thanks Don't Worry Be Happy for your jam-packed insightful posts!
Regarding this thread I've been thinking about a certain verse:
Matthew 18:7 NASB
Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
…We don't really know what impact a situation will have on another person's belief system. According to Jesus' words the person who puts the stumbling block in another's way shares in the culpability.
I don't think suicide is the correct response to a problem, of course – but knowing the treacherous nature of certain leaders and the debilitating mindset of a typical TWI follower, I often wonder how much of the problem a suicidal person dealt with was ministry-related. I'm thinking about my WOW year …One of the WOWs in our branch committed suicide……Since leaving TWI a long time ago, I've tossed that devil-spirit-fixation-mindset – and take a compassionate approach to the human condition.
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JeffSjo
I'm very sorry to hear about Sandra Ann Sullivan, today is the first time for me and I'm at a loss for words right now.
Take care friends.
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now I see
Proverbs 6: 12-15
"A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy."
VPee, the behind the scenes man, orchestrating the destruction of souls.
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Bramble
There are people who have no ability to empathise with others. VP could have been such a person. And certainly those who worshipped him and tried to be like him made themselves worse people than they were to start. Plus, having VPW characteristics was a 'leadership' quality, and rewarded in TWI, because they were bold and did the reproof/spiritual anger stuff. Easier to treat people that way if you have no empathy for them.
I think that the mog thought Sandy should just renew her mind and obey.
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TheHighWay
That's a point that should be repeated !!!
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George Aar
And then there's the attitude - common amongst those who still cleave to some basic WayWorld tenets (and quite plainly demonstrated here)- that all of life can be boiled down to a few simplistic "principles". I think that these are then utilized in much the same manner as a rabbit's foot, a thumb to suck, or a pet "blankie".
Is there a troubling aspect of life that doesn't fit with your preconceived notions? Well, it must all be because somebody wasn't following Godly "principles". A young kid becomes so enamored of cult life that she abandons family and friends and becomes cloistered within a group of psychopaths in training? She wasn't being circumspect like The Bible admonishes. She gets raped by a supposed Clergyman? Ah, it's her fault. She wasn't utilizing the proper keys in her life. The same Clergy screws with her head enough that she commits suicide? Same thing. Her fault.
The pat answer, the simplistic notion, the concept that all of life's ills can be avoided by simple adherence to utterly unproveable "keys" must be so comforting to some that the thought of life without them must be just too scary to imagine.
Hopefully for them, real life will never intrude on their wonderland of make believe. It can be so disheartening when that happens...
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Yanagisawa
The pat answer, the simplistic notion, the concept that all of life's ills can be avoided by simple adherence to utterly unproveable "keys"
Ah yes, the old "keys and principles" doctrine. Bequeathed to us from the enlightenment, it asserts that all of reality is a mechanism of cause and effect. It was evidenced in physics (Newton's Principia), economics (Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations), and philosophy (Kant's Critique of Pure Reason). Success in any area of life is garnered by the application of principles that work with a "mathematical exactness". Failure in any area of life is achieved by non application.
Although these men were more brilliant than I could ever hope to be, (and their discoveries have aided mankind ever since), the revolutionary worldview they brought did seem to promise that intelligence, labor and resources alone would stoke the machine of reality and guarantee a positive outcome.
It's interesting that their successors, (Einstein et al) once again were forced to grapple with the notion of mystery and chance.
I think this mechanistic, "keys and principles" way of thinking appealed to a generation of idealistic young people to whom formulas for happiness had not yet been challenged by the vicissitudes of life. For the most part we had not yet been faced with the big question: "Why?"
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Some powerful and heartfelt posts...The subject of suicide is intense and can often be personal. I think that life is a precious thing. It's fleeting and it's profound...To have disregard for another human being...to use them and not care what happens to them...watching them kill themselves and then moving on to another victim...This is the picture that I see...
oldies...If you punch someone in the nose and they cry out...is it their fault for crying out?...I mean, they have freedom of will and should be able to control their own actions...right?...and if they DO cry out it was their own decision and therefore their own fault ...right? :blink:
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Ham
And this is the picture I see also.
You'd think after driving at least one to suicide, and God only knows how many more to madness, you'd think someone who was rational or sane would get a clue..
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rhino
This issue is so clear ... IF vp or howard had sex with this woman, they were predators ... if she committed suicide and anyone cannot see the guilt of those predators ... especially as those predators were defensive and showed no remorse ... then anyone defending those that used their power over that woman for their own lusts ... is little better than the predators ...
Ministers are supposed to heal the sick ... not ravage them and then condemn them for their weakness ... it does not get much more vile than that .. does it? Unless you consider those that defend those in power that took advantage of the weak ...
I really don't see how anyone can be so sick as to defend vp or ha's actions ... even for a non-christian ... I've seen professionals moved to another city for flirting and buying a single co-worker gal flowers ... but in wayworld .. rape or sex is OK, and if she commits suicide ... they wash their hands of the matter ... and humans post here defending that?
WOW .... scum of the earth .... holy cow ... or should i say ... sacred cow ... they must defend their god vpw :blink:
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Dot Matrix
For many reasons I think this book is worth mentioning on this thread
The Sociopath Next Door
from the book jacket:
Who is the devil you know?
Is it your lying, cheating ex-husband?
Your sadistic high school gym teacher?
Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings?
The colleague who stole your idea and passed it off as her own?
In the pages of The Sociopath Next Door, you will realize that your ex was not just misunderstood. He's a sociopath. And your boss, teacher, and colleague? They may be sociopaths too.
We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath. They could be your colleague, your neighbor, even family. And they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt.
How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They're more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others' suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.
The fact is, we all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already. Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know—someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for—is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.
It is the ruthless versus the rest of us, and The Sociopath Next Door will show you how to recognize and defeat the devil you know.
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hiway29
That sounds like an important and interesting book, that I plan on reading, but how on earth did she come up with that 1 in 25 is a sociopath statistic-especially if they're hidden ?
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