OMG, as the only boy in my family for the first few rocks we went to i HATED the showers... why in the **** didn't they have curtains? i still have this creepy memory of being 9 and seeing this guy half erect washing his pubes who started talking to me *shudder*
I showered very, very early and stayed as far away from others as I could manage.
Of course, at ROA '89, so many fewer people were there than the previous year that I had the showers to myself with less effort.
Using someone's fame or credentials to puff up twi was a practice vpw started.
As lcm reported in "vp and me", vpw put a judge on the main stage at an ROA
for that reason-despite there being reasons to NOT put him there.
"Incident of the Federal judge that took the class. Dr recommended that he be put on mainstage at
the ROA to speak to the audience. Dr didn't think that he deserved to be put in stage as he had little
or no humility. But Dr felt that it would be a major feather in the cap to have a man of such stature in our
ministry."
lcm continued the practice.
"Tony Collins-New England Patriots- WOW pin. LCM was unsure as to whether he should go to New
Englandnin advance of the ROA to give him a WOW pin. All the local leadership were against it.
They thought that it was being a "RESPECTER OF PERSONS".
After talking it over with Dr, he decided to do it as it would further the ministry.""
=======
For those who missed that one....
Oakspear:
"What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?"
Outin88:
"I was there at that Massachusetts limb meeting when they gave Tony Collins a wow pin. They also brought Joyful noise in and made a big deal that Tony was getting this pin.
Being a "Respecter of persons" is exactly what I was thinking at the time. mad.gif
Oakspear said;
"What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?"
I was told he did some kind of "special athletic wow program", because he was a pro football player and could not take time off from the season they made a special exception for him. Wasn't that special! dry.gif
I wondered back then and still do, exactly what he did as a special wow. Can you say "Respecter fo Persons"?
Oh but it helped further the ministy. rolleyes.gif "
=====
We've also come a long way without discussing who Hayes Gahagan was.
Don:
"He was a State Senator from Maine, who ran for the U.S. Senate, and got clobbered. He then developed a "seminar" for twi's "word in government" arm, called "the Blessings of Liberty"
This seminar and "word in government" concept was hijacked by T0m Jenk1ns0n as Gahagan faded into the background of twi "has-beens".
"Forget the doofusses who prevailed at the ballot box on Nov. 2. It’s time to honor the real winners of the 2004 election with the most coveted of political trophies:
The Gaggie.
The Gaggie is named for Hayes Gahagan, whose independent US Senate candidacy in 1978 is best remembered for his claim that persons unknown had altered his advertising to insert subliminal pictures of genitalia in his hair. These awards are presented to those who embody the Gahagan tradition of being a couple of lawn signs shy of a campaign."
"I just came across an incredible campaign anecdote while working on my dissertation. Check out this excerpt from a Washington Post story on the 1978 US Senate race in Maine:
Three independents are challenging Hathaway and Cohen, but only one of them, former state senator Hayes Gahagan, was expected to attract many votes.
The campaign of the 30-year-old conservative has foundered, however, since he announced that someone had implanted the word "sex" on his face in his campaign photographs.
He says he has since discovered the same word appears in Cohen and Hathaway campaign photographs and he makes no claim to know who is doing the implants. But he is calling for a congressional investigation of what he terms "a national scandal" of subliminal advertising.
His problem is that people outside his campaign, including this reporter, can't see the words even with the aid of a magnifying glass.
Just to reiterate, Gahagan wasn't some random loon; he was a former state senator who was a serious enough candidate that the Post reporter actually got out a magnifying glass to look for the word "sex." Wow."
How many times do you have to do something weird before you’re permanently designated a wacko? I’m not sure, but Hayes Gahagan has to be getting close.
In 1978, Gahagan, then a Republican state senator associated with a religious cult called The Way, quit the party to run for the US Senate as an independent. That September, he announced that persons unknown had somehow inserted subliminal photos of genitalia into his campaign photos. He lost the election.
Today, Gahagan lives in Presque Isle and is a member of the Republican State Committee. He recently wrote a Bangor Daily News op-ed piece in which he called liberals and Democrats “National Socialists.”
National Socialists? As in Nazis?
“National Socialism did not work in Germany,” he wrote, “it did not work in Italy; it did not work in the Soviet Union; it is not working in North Korea, Iran, Cuba or Venezuela. National Socialism will not work in the United States of America.”
If Democrats are Nazis, does that make Republicans commies?
============================
ToadFriend noted that twi's official support for Hayes Gahagan for Maine's State Senate is what almost cost twi its tax-exempt status.
"...around the time the Way was trying to get folks to support Hayes Gahagan for the Maine Senate, which later almost cost them their tax-exempt status..."
===========
Jkboehme:
"I think VPW placed Jimmy Doop to head the Gahaygan campaign for TWI: money, support, people, etc. As ToadFriend noted, this incident induced the IRS to set up camp on TWI HQ for several years to audit TWI’s books.
It seems odd to me that intensive IRS investigation was somehow just dropped; I smell a plea bargain or possible bribe somewhere in the mix."
=============
Shazdancer:
"I'd like to hear if anyone knows if TWI got nailed on the Hayes Gahagan thing. For those who may not know, Hayes was a PFAL grad (did he go any higher than that? I don't know) who was state senator in Maine. Perhaps you can fill in more of the details -- did he run for federal office?
"he third major thing is, they organization is not allowed to endorse a political candidate. I have recently found a copy of the letter Wierwille sent in 1976 telling us he endorsed Maine Senator Hayes Gahagan. Although Wierwille does not use TWI letterhead, and denies that the org is endorsing the guy, Wierwille nonetheless used TWI's mailing list for this mailing -- oops! He's lucky he didn't lose TWI altogether over that one."
======
pjroberge:
"I recently talked to Hayes and he said that when TWI lost their tax exempt status over this issue that TWI probably lost millions...."
=======
GrouchoMarxJr:
"The Hayes Gahagan era ushered in a new dimension to twi...I think it was roa 76 or 77...political jabber was on everyone's lips...talk of getting a pfal grad into the White house was the goal...Tom J got involved with the political agenda as well...twiers were encouraged to get involved with local politics and make a "difference". When I first took the advanced class in 1978, it was extremely political...all the illuminati stuff, etc...when I went into residence in 79, I would say that twi had gone into the "Jim Jones" category with all the MAL pack stuff...and in the meantime, twiers were being encouraged to attend John Birch Society meetings, develope survival skills and get ready for the poop to hit the fan."
...and let's not forget Paul Richards (I think that's his name)...the former Olympic gold medalist and Wheaties guy on TV...
I was at hdqrts for corps week when VP pranced him out on stage to address all of us...I remember thinking at the time...Is this the best you can do?...The Wheaties guy?
...and let's not forget Paul Richards (I think that's his name)...the former Olympic gold medalist and Wheaties guy on TV...
I was at hdqrts for corps week when VP pranced him out on stage to address all of us...I remember thinking at the time...Is this the best you can do?...The Wheaties guy?
Hey!!
There were a lot of pretty cool Wheaties guys (and gals)!
I remember thinking somebody had better achieve stardom before getting into twi, because once you got sucked into the pfal series/wow/corps vortex, you don't have enough time or money to achieve greatness. On the other hand, the celeb trotting and name dropping impressed dips like me because at the time I was impressed and wowed by it.
Nika, I heard the same thing about Cher...but I heard the girl who witnessed to her was Patty A...widow of a member of a famous southern rock band.
My only claim to fame...on my wow year in DC I gave my very own piffle book to Be++y Ford while she attempted to shop in Georgetown. My kind of witnessing...stick a book in someone's face and tell her it meant a lot to me and maybe it would mean something to her.
As far as the showers at the ROA, after getting inside the shower tents we would have to undress in the open area and leave our clothes in lockers, little cubicle lockers, if I remember correctly. We could take/wear our towell to the showers but the curtains were flimsy and had gaps. I just remember being really uncomfortable, but it didn't seem to bother many of the ladies. Instead of realizing that the lack of privacy was weird, as my manner was, I blamed myself for being too uptight.
"What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?"
I was told he did some kind of "special athletic wow program", because he was a pro football player and could not take time off from the season they made a special exception for him. Wasn't that special! dry.gif
I wondered back then and still do, exactly what he did as a special wow. Can you say "Respecter fo Persons"?
Oh but it helped further the ministy. rolleyes.gif "
As I recall (I was in Massachusetts at the time), Tony Collins was the first one from the New England Patriots to take the class, and he witnessed to Irving Fryar and maybe others who took it later.
About Hayes Gahagan: A bunch of us (College WOWs from all over New England) went to Maine to go door-to-door campaigning for him. We were told to pretend that we were from Maine (it was my first trip there!) because the voters might be upset if they thought the election was being influenced by outsiders. I also remember the subliminal advertising flap.
Memories... It was Bob Richards, the olympic athlete, who for years was on the Wheaties box all of us baby boomers stared at as we ate our breakfasts.
I too wondered why VP trotted him out, all of a sudden, out of the blue at corps week. Usually someone like that would have been built up, lauded, etc.
Turns out, Richards was the populist party candidate for president that year.
For you history buffs, the Populist party was the political party of the Liberty Lobby - the white supremist party. They actually did pretty well in Iowa and a couple of other midwestern states. As we know, the Liberty Lobby was the organization that was a front for myriad white supremist groups. The Liberty Lobby was located in Washington D.C. where they also printed their little magazine, the Spotlight. It was from here VP got his illuminati tapes, his "revelation" in the '70s the country was about to collapse, the tapes he played at the Advanced Class, etc. All the "revy" secret stuff he taught came from them, all of his conspiracy theories (the secret constitution, Jonestown was really a CIA operation, et al.). He also had a "hotline" he called with updates.
So, since VP was an active member, Bob stopped by. He gave a speech, then was gone. I don't think he ever took the class.
I'm surprised he never brought in Ron Pompeil to teach us new marketing techniques for selling the class...
...and Yeah, it was Bob Richards, not Paul...I wasn't aware of the connection there with the Liberty party and "Spotlight" magazine...to think that Wierwille's "revelation" was coming from a crackpot racist organization!...I guess it's all flowing together (sunesis)...
Groucho, I still have my copy of the "Secret Constitution" we received in our first year in residence in the 7th corps. That would have been '76. It was supposedly the Constitution as Nixon wanted it to be and which he was going to force on us after a coup and he became dictator. On the inside cover, there is the order form to subscribe to the Spotlight magazine. Of course, none of us back then had any idea what it meant.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
4
5
4
6
Popular Days
May 27
17
May 28
13
May 29
8
May 30
8
Top Posters In This Topic
GeorgeStGeorge 4 posts
mstar1 5 posts
RumRunner 4 posts
waysider 6 posts
Popular Days
May 27 2008
17 posts
May 28 2008
13 posts
May 29 2008
8 posts
May 30 2008
8 posts
WordWolf
I showered very, very early and stayed as far away from others as I could manage.
Of course, at ROA '89, so many fewer people were there than the previous year that I had the showers to myself with less effort.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
I had heard that Gloria Copeland (wife of televangelist Kenneth C.) took PFAL.
Lake Daly was a model who did a tour in Way Corps. (Whatever happend to her?)
I also heard that the lead singer of the rock group Heart took PFAL.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
I heard that Frederick Price , (another televangelist) took it as well, His stuff always did sound PFALish to me
of course I dont know if this really qualifies as "celebrity"--
pretty soon we are going to be down to Ed the butcher
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
You mean 'PFoolish', doncha? ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Ed The Butcher took PLAF("The Miracle Class")????
Now that's noteworthy.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
I liked FP and KC. It's possible, of course, that they simply read How to Enjoy the Bible.
Celebrity, I suppose, is in the eye of the beholder.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Seth R.
LOL that must have been the early '80's when it was huge, (pardon the pun) I went when the rocks were smaller.
Seth
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
I never stood in line for the showers nekkid either, and in the women's showers, we did have curtains.
I just didn't like having to stand in line, even with my clothes on.
Oh, and back to the topic...
Didn't Eldridge Cleaver take PFAL? I seem to recall Ralph D talking about it at HQ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
I don't recall if he took the class - I do remember him coming to Emporia sometime after returning to the US.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hampshire73
I can't remember his name, but there was a guy who was a member of Gary Puckett & The Union Gap who sang a couple of times at the Rock in the 70s.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Barry McCoy-------------Happy To Be Home Again
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Since I was unclear, I didn't stand in line for the showers, dressed or not. But they DID lack curtains.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Using someone's fame or credentials to puff up twi was a practice vpw started.
As lcm reported in "vp and me", vpw put a judge on the main stage at an ROA
for that reason-despite there being reasons to NOT put him there.
"Incident of the Federal judge that took the class. Dr recommended that he be put on mainstage at
the ROA to speak to the audience. Dr didn't think that he deserved to be put in stage as he had little
or no humility. But Dr felt that it would be a major feather in the cap to have a man of such stature in our
ministry."
lcm continued the practice.
"Tony Collins-New England Patriots- WOW pin. LCM was unsure as to whether he should go to New
Englandnin advance of the ROA to give him a WOW pin. All the local leadership were against it.
They thought that it was being a "RESPECTER OF PERSONS".
After talking it over with Dr, he decided to do it as it would further the ministry.""
=======
For those who missed that one....
Oakspear:
"What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?"
Outin88:
"I was there at that Massachusetts limb meeting when they gave Tony Collins a wow pin. They also brought Joyful noise in and made a big deal that Tony was getting this pin.
Being a "Respecter of persons" is exactly what I was thinking at the time. mad.gif
Oakspear said;
"What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?"
I was told he did some kind of "special athletic wow program", because he was a pro football player and could not take time off from the season they made a special exception for him. Wasn't that special! dry.gif
I wondered back then and still do, exactly what he did as a special wow. Can you say "Respecter fo Persons"?
Oh but it helped further the ministy. rolleyes.gif "
=====
We've also come a long way without discussing who Hayes Gahagan was.
Don:
"He was a State Senator from Maine, who ran for the U.S. Senate, and got clobbered. He then developed a "seminar" for twi's "word in government" arm, called "the Blessings of Liberty"
This seminar and "word in government" concept was hijacked by T0m Jenk1ns0n as Gahagan faded into the background of twi "has-beens".
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/po...ts/04242150.asp
November 5 - 11, 2004
"Forget the doofusses who prevailed at the ballot box on Nov. 2. It’s time to honor the real winners of the 2004 election with the most coveted of political trophies:
The Gaggie.
The Gaggie is named for Hayes Gahagan, whose independent US Senate candidacy in 1978 is best remembered for his claim that persons unknown had altered his advertising to insert subliminal pictures of genitalia in his hair. These awards are presented to those who embody the Gahagan tradition of being a couple of lawn signs shy of a campaign."
==================================
http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2007/06/...e_crazy_ca.html
June 07, 2007
When crazy candidates attack
"I just came across an incredible campaign anecdote while working on my dissertation. Check out this excerpt from a Washington Post story on the 1978 US Senate race in Maine:
Three independents are challenging Hathaway and Cohen, but only one of them, former state senator Hayes Gahagan, was expected to attract many votes.
The campaign of the 30-year-old conservative has foundered, however, since he announced that someone had implanted the word "sex" on his face in his campaign photographs.
He says he has since discovered the same word appears in Cohen and Hathaway campaign photographs and he makes no claim to know who is doing the implants. But he is calling for a congressional investigation of what he terms "a national scandal" of subliminal advertising.
His problem is that people outside his campaign, including this reporter, can't see the words even with the aid of a magnifying glass.
Just to reiterate, Gahagan wasn't some random loon; he was a former state senator who was a serious enough candidate that the Post reporter actually got out a magnifying glass to look for the word "sex." Wow."
==============================
http://thephoenix.com/article_ektid61942.aspx
"Get awkward
How many times do you have to do something weird before you’re permanently designated a wacko? I’m not sure, but Hayes Gahagan has to be getting close.
In 1978, Gahagan, then a Republican state senator associated with a religious cult called The Way, quit the party to run for the US Senate as an independent. That September, he announced that persons unknown had somehow inserted subliminal photos of genitalia into his campaign photos. He lost the election.
Today, Gahagan lives in Presque Isle and is a member of the Republican State Committee. He recently wrote a Bangor Daily News op-ed piece in which he called liberals and Democrats “National Socialists.”
National Socialists? As in Nazis?
“National Socialism did not work in Germany,” he wrote, “it did not work in Italy; it did not work in the Soviet Union; it is not working in North Korea, Iran, Cuba or Venezuela. National Socialism will not work in the United States of America.”
If Democrats are Nazis, does that make Republicans commies?
============================
ToadFriend noted that twi's official support for Hayes Gahagan for Maine's State Senate is what almost cost twi its tax-exempt status.
"...around the time the Way was trying to get folks to support Hayes Gahagan for the Maine Senate, which later almost cost them their tax-exempt status..."
===========
Jkboehme:
"I think VPW placed Jimmy Doop to head the Gahaygan campaign for TWI: money, support, people, etc. As ToadFriend noted, this incident induced the IRS to set up camp on TWI HQ for several years to audit TWI’s books.
It seems odd to me that intensive IRS investigation was somehow just dropped; I smell a plea bargain or possible bribe somewhere in the mix."
=============
Shazdancer:
"I'd like to hear if anyone knows if TWI got nailed on the Hayes Gahagan thing. For those who may not know, Hayes was a PFAL grad (did he go any higher than that? I don't know) who was state senator in Maine. Perhaps you can fill in more of the details -- did he run for federal office?
I remember Wierwille speaking from the stage in endorsement of his campaign. Oopsie, that's a blatant violation of the 501©(3) federal laws governing not-for-profit organizations. The organization cannot endorse a political candidate, and certainly can't contribute organization monies or services to one."
"he third major thing is, they organization is not allowed to endorse a political candidate. I have recently found a copy of the letter Wierwille sent in 1976 telling us he endorsed Maine Senator Hayes Gahagan. Although Wierwille does not use TWI letterhead, and denies that the org is endorsing the guy, Wierwille nonetheless used TWI's mailing list for this mailing -- oops! He's lucky he didn't lose TWI altogether over that one."
======
pjroberge:
"I recently talked to Hayes and he said that when TWI lost their tax exempt status over this issue that TWI probably lost millions...."
=======
GrouchoMarxJr:
"The Hayes Gahagan era ushered in a new dimension to twi...I think it was roa 76 or 77...political jabber was on everyone's lips...talk of getting a pfal grad into the White house was the goal...Tom J got involved with the political agenda as well...twiers were encouraged to get involved with local politics and make a "difference". When I first took the advanced class in 1978, it was extremely political...all the illuminati stuff, etc...when I went into residence in 79, I would say that twi had gone into the "Jim Jones" category with all the MAL pack stuff...and in the meantime, twiers were being encouraged to attend John Birch Society meetings, develope survival skills and get ready for the poop to hit the fan."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
I heard that too from RD at a meeting in FL in the mid 80's sometime---
(I erroneously said Stokely Carmichael at the beginning of the thread somewhere--I meant to say Cleaver---)
....there was also rumors that I heard more than a few times that the band Kansas were early grads but left to pursue a "worldly career" in music
hence the lyrics "carry on my wayward son--there'll be peace when you are done"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
...and let's not forget Paul Richards (I think that's his name)...the former Olympic gold medalist and Wheaties guy on TV...
I was at hdqrts for corps week when VP pranced him out on stage to address all of us...I remember thinking at the time...Is this the best you can do?...The Wheaties guy?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Hey!!
There were a lot of pretty cool Wheaties guys (and gals)!
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
tonto
I remember thinking somebody had better achieve stardom before getting into twi, because once you got sucked into the pfal series/wow/corps vortex, you don't have enough time or money to achieve greatness. On the other hand, the celeb trotting and name dropping impressed dips like me because at the time I was impressed and wowed by it.
Nika, I heard the same thing about Cher...but I heard the girl who witnessed to her was Patty A...widow of a member of a famous southern rock band.
My only claim to fame...on my wow year in DC I gave my very own piffle book to Be++y Ford while she attempted to shop in Georgetown. My kind of witnessing...stick a book in someone's face and tell her it meant a lot to me and maybe it would mean something to her.
As far as the showers at the ROA, after getting inside the shower tents we would have to undress in the open area and leave our clothes in lockers, little cubicle lockers, if I remember correctly. We could take/wear our towell to the showers but the curtains were flimsy and had gaps. I just remember being really uncomfortable, but it didn't seem to bother many of the ladies. Instead of realizing that the lack of privacy was weird, as my manner was, I blamed myself for being too uptight.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
We had open showers in high school, and my fraternity had one. I didn't think it was that big a deal at the Rock.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hampshire73
As I recall (I was in Massachusetts at the time), Tony Collins was the first one from the New England Patriots to take the class, and he witnessed to Irving Fryar and maybe others who took it later.
About Hayes Gahagan: A bunch of us (College WOWs from all over New England) went to Maine to go door-to-door campaigning for him. We were told to pretend that we were from Maine (it was my first trip there!) because the voters might be upset if they thought the election was being influenced by outsiders. I also remember the subliminal advertising flap.
Those were the days!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
wing
Thanks... it was hurtin my brain tryin to remember that guys name, or how he had been a 'celeb'.
Wasn't his tune put on the ROA 72 record? Or maybe it was filler in the film of ROA that year.
For what it's worth, my internet search (allmusicguide) resulted in this: Puckett & the Union Gap, at the end of their run,
had defaulted their CBS record contract by refusing to record a specific song (... because they wanted to write & record their
own stuff; but their contract required them to record songs provided by their CBS producer). The four original members
(not counting Puckett) quit, being demoted to weekly paychecks (instead of percentage of the revenue).
The band got retooled, replacements were hired.
This is where Barry McCoy comes in, as the replacement keyboard player hired by the manager. But this revamped group failed, and
was disbanded after their one and only appearance in 1971. Puckett quit to go off on his own.
McCoy apparently found the way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Memories... It was Bob Richards, the olympic athlete, who for years was on the Wheaties box all of us baby boomers stared at as we ate our breakfasts.
I too wondered why VP trotted him out, all of a sudden, out of the blue at corps week. Usually someone like that would have been built up, lauded, etc.
Turns out, Richards was the populist party candidate for president that year.
For you history buffs, the Populist party was the political party of the Liberty Lobby - the white supremist party. They actually did pretty well in Iowa and a couple of other midwestern states. As we know, the Liberty Lobby was the organization that was a front for myriad white supremist groups. The Liberty Lobby was located in Washington D.C. where they also printed their little magazine, the Spotlight. It was from here VP got his illuminati tapes, his "revelation" in the '70s the country was about to collapse, the tapes he played at the Advanced Class, etc. All the "revy" secret stuff he taught came from them, all of his conspiracy theories (the secret constitution, Jonestown was really a CIA operation, et al.). He also had a "hotline" he called with updates.
So, since VP was an active member, Bob stopped by. He gave a speech, then was gone. I don't think he ever took the class.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I'm surprised he never brought in Ron Pompeil to teach us new marketing techniques for selling the class...
...and Yeah, it was Bob Richards, not Paul...I wasn't aware of the connection there with the Liberty party and "Spotlight" magazine...to think that Wierwille's "revelation" was coming from a crackpot racist organization!...I guess it's all flowing together (sunesis)...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Groucho, I still have my copy of the "Secret Constitution" we received in our first year in residence in the 7th corps. That would have been '76. It was supposedly the Constitution as Nixon wanted it to be and which he was going to force on us after a coup and he became dictator. On the inside cover, there is the order form to subscribe to the Spotlight magazine. Of course, none of us back then had any idea what it meant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.