Couldn't concur more - even on those issues I may disagree/agree/hate/dislike - your analysis of our online culture is correct
truly sorry Lindy
cant help but notice i didnt respond to your opening post very well anyway
besides...thats quite a tall order for the gsc, imo
i dont even think the various authors of the books in the bible canon shared the same views about God, sex, death, reality, etc...
and i tell ya...aside from life's other tugs
im personally getting weary of written public conversation such as these
especially regarding the most important kinds of things (god, sex, death, etc...)
and how the same conflicts and polarizations are predictable
i still dont think we are very good with all this
...some worse at it than others
for one
we oversimplify
speak too soon
go too fast too far
put the cart before the horse
yada yada
not to mention
in all my years here
most no one ever refers to any doctrines whatsoever anyway
the mountains of doctrinal taboos present here
make looking at the whole of art and literature about god sex and death
a view through a pinhole
as if we have become so insular and self-assured as to be quite blind to anything remotely close to authentic wholesome spiritual indoctrination
with any sort of historical or demonstrable benefit to one's self and the world at large
we reject the lion's share of valid info
and we mostly lack the social skills and environs to come close to the deep experienced ways of non-violent communication required for shared doctrinal depth
...we go round and round in our same disfunctional sit-com series of misunderstandings and confusion...from the get-go
like we always blow it on steps one through three or so
and any final ultimate once and-for-all doctrinal conclusions made from these kinds of discourses
are still going to be temporary
...
i guess im trying to say that we are in need of new tongues for this stuff
if we want to have doctrinal conversations of any significant depth or degree
i feel my contributions are, at best...desperate splatterings on a crumbling wall
i disagree that a house bugler will always have the desire--I think plentyy of ex criminals overcome those desires or whatever motivated them.
Alchoholism is an addiction. Is addiction a sin? I guess I thought it was closer to an illness.
No offense, but your doctrine demands a lonely and unfulfilled life for the homosexual. Not everyone is cut out to live alone with no love life their whole life.
I am not surprised that a homosexual Christian would leave the church, find a church with different views or become an unbeliever under such a belief.
maybe each case is different but I use to take things that do not belong to me and I find the images of doing that act still planted in my mind as memories
something I must fight to keep buried
I see them all as habits we fight to change like smoking for some
there is no offense tooken but I see no one has to be lonely but they must divide love from sex or two people can have a relationship without having sex
I personally believe sex was design to make children and not to replace true love
but this is me and I may never understand all the ups and downs a homosexual Christian must deal with but by compairing them to other sins I can try
just trying to put things in a nut shell
one can be lonely in a married setting with children just somehing to note
Lindy, I think it would be interesting to learn why the more liberal Christian churches think differrently than the more conservative churches on the subject.
In my area both the Episcopol church and the United Church of Christ/Congregational welcome gays into the congregation without that drive to change them--gay families etc. Maybe Eyes has some links, I haven't had the time to go through all her links on the other thread. And I don't think we have any posters from those churches here.
Roy, here's how I'm seeing your doctrine work in the real world.
One of my daughters has a very close friend, a gay boy, call him Freddie. He's known he's gay for a long time but he is only sixteen. Funny, but other people who know him have thought he was gay for years, but somehow his parents never noticed.
This kid is a hard worker in school, in all honors classes and at the top of many of them. He pretty much sweeps awards ceremonies at the school. He is also a class leader, spearheading all types of community and school service activities.
He has very demanding parents, the type who will freak out over a 'c' grade. They belong to a fundamentalist church and believe that homosexuals are abombinations etc.
Freddie has many friends but this year he met a boy on a debate trip who ives in a different city. Boyfreind Jay has accepting parents, he has pretty normal teenage boundaries as a far as I can tell.
Freddie decides he must come out to his parents. They totally freaked out, ground him, began arguing about his gayness, take away his computer and search his room and take pictures of Jay away(these were Jay on the debate competition pictures, not x rated). Freddie lives 17 miles out of town, so being grounded is very isolating.
A few months later parent file for divorce--his dad tells him he caused it with his gayness. Nice.
Kid is distraught and depressed. Parent do not want to consent to counseling though Freddie asks for help. Gay boy camp comes up. Freddie wants to run away, quit school, get a job.
Me and another mom tell Freddie he calls us if he runs away, we don't want to see him on the streets.
Freddie get counseling, finally. I and the other mom transport him to every debate meet for the rest of the season, parents have washed their hands of him, because he is of course still gay. We also buy him snacks for the bus trip and make sure our kids have enough money to cover him. Neglect--I think so, but not enough to concern the state.
Parents talk about boarding school. Parents consider changing highschool for some reason, but decide to let him stay because he is in all AP classes and they don't want to mess up his grades. This is all very upsetting to freddie.
How do you think it all looks to the gay boy?
He's a a failure.
He is responsible for his parent's marriage problems.
He is scared of gay camp and boarding school. Both are religious, he does not accept his parent's religion anymore.
He is in love with Jay and upset he can't even email him, Romeo and Juliet angst. Friends carry messages between the two.
He doesn't know how to not be gay.
He rebels and emails, also contacts a gay support groups.
Two different families have offered him a home if things get worse at his, which has to be confusing.
He feels life would be better if he could be emancipated and get away from home, but how will he get $ .
If he accepts and lives his parents doctrine:
He can't be in love or be attracted to anyone unless he becomes hetero, because of course he is attracted to boys..
He doesn't know how to change himself into a hetero(--and I for one am glad he is not using my daughter or another teen girl as 'cover.')
His future as this type of believer means no love life, no sex, no spouse, unless he changes into a hetero.
What I think--I think Freddie will wrangle a good scholarship, and probably one out of state. i think he will leave home the minute he is eighteen if not before, and I don't think he's coming back. I think he'll replace his family with people who like and care for him, and he won't have a hard time finding such people. I think he'll stay gay. I doubt he will turn into a promiscous party boy since he has a great deal of discipline in his life already at sixteen. I think that despite his gayness, he will have lots of success in lifebut I also thnk the type of rejection he has experienced with his own parents will affect him.
I think someday his parents will realize they're getting old, and they forced him out of their lives.
Now I get what you mean by calling my doctrine but I believe you are wrong about my beliefs
My doctrine would be to live the love of God no matter what
While I believe being gay is against natural I understand more than I am willing to say what the boy is living and dealing with but no where near what he is face-ing in his life
I say love people where they are so what he is gay I am fat over 300 pounds and I had some Bi dreams in my life time
been called names to the point I believed I was something I never wanted to be
Life can turn you many ways what I am trying to say is I am trying to learn how to understand better but maybe I am saying it very poorly has I try to understand because we are all sinners
I have many Gay friends and I have done alot of things that you would not call normal for that out of being ashamed of doing them they will not see the light of day here
your friend being gay does not upset me nor do I judge him for it
why and how he got that way he may never be known and at this point in life I am sure he does not care
but I see the key is to love him for who he is
but I must not agree with him being gay being right but in the same coin I think I am wrong to eat the way I do
I see not one sin greater than another sin
I see all sins has things life has cause some we understand how and some we do not
peace
I like it when you talk about your friend and I am glad you are helping
What pray tell are you talking about? My admission? Of what? How can you understand me if you don't know me? Face it we have never actually had a discussion.
And for the record I dont 'hate' Christians I am one. I do however (as you) disagree with acts. The history of the Christian Church is a bloody one and I am often disgusted by the atrocities that I read about and the butchering of the scriptures is one of those atrocities. I hold the word(s) of God in high esteem. And I'm fairly certain that you do also. But we seem to disagree on some funamental issues. We both need to agree to disagree.
But do please let me know what the heck you are talking about concerning the first comment.
I know how this person feels, I come from a very dysfunctional group of "little" people as well!!
I haven't read this entire thread but here goes anyway...
One change I noticed in my ex-Way friend during her 20+ year absence (along with the acquisition of a variety of kooky beliefs) was a new-found hatred of gays and a belief that homosexuality is some kind of sin against God. It's so disappointing -- there's no talking to her on this subject. I try to look past it because I like her and I generally don't hold friends' racist, sexist or homophobic beliefs against them. I guess I'm tolerant that way.
(For the record, I'm not gay and don't have any loved ones who are. But I can tell you that if any of my kids grew up to be homosexual I would not judge them or condemn them about it, and I certainly wouldn't love them any less.)
Recently, gay marriage was on the table in NY State (it was voted down) and it's coming up for a vote by the state legislature in NJ. Maybe it's because I don't have a dog in this race but I could not care less if gay couples have the right to marry or not. It is a non-issue to me, personally. However, I can't figure out why it does bother certain people so much. Why is it a "threat"? Why do they think it's a sin against God? (Please don't point me to Romans or Corinthians, I've already read it.) And why are they so concerned about what consenting adults do behind closed doors?
I actually know a colleague -- a decent, professional, educated man -- who is considering enrolling his child in a parochial school because of some perceived risk that his child might "contract homosexuality" (my term, coined sarcastically) from some other public school kid. Even if exposure to homosexuality was enough to convert a heterosexual into a homosexual, what makes him (or anybody) think that private or parochial schools are devoid of gays?
I guess ignorance and stupidity know no bounds. It's sad.
In the Advanced Class, one of the series of Power For Abundant Living classes, there is an entire section devoted to various "devil spirits" that are supposedly responsible for all sorts of maladies and behaviors that don't fit the norm. Among them are such things as alcoholism, sexual predation, suicide, depression, cancer and, yes, homosexuality. So, based on the teachings of The Way, your friend probably subscribes to the idea that homosexuals are devil possessed.
Allow me to take it a step further. In this same class, it is taught that there is a certain kind of devil spirit called a "familiar spirit". Supposedly, these spirits hang around, spying on "believers" and gathering any bits and pieces of information they can, such as your deceased great uncle's middle name and the time you flunked a geometry test but hid it from your parents. So, based on this kind of thinking, your friend probably avoids contact with gay people because doing so would be fraternizing with "the devil" and if there is a familiar spirit nearby, it could use the knowledge of that against her.
To make this even more bizarre, you have to understand that Wierwille, himself, was a sexual predator who spent much of his waking hours in a state of inebriation and ultimately died of cancer.
In the Advanced Class...there is an entire section devoted to various "devil spirits" that are supposedly responsible for all sorts of maladies and behaviors that don't fit the norm. Among them are such things as alcoholism, sexual predation, suicide, depression, cancer and, yes, homosexuality.
To make this even more bizarre, you have to understand that Wierwille, himself, was a sexual predator who spent much of his waking hours in a state of inebriation and ultimately died of cancer.
Waysider, I'm curious: being the intelligent, insightful individual that you obviously are, when did you discover that you were being sold a bill of goods by TWI? Was there a specific event that opened your eyes? If you posted your story somewhere, send me a link. Thanks.
Waysider, I'm curious: being the intelligent, insightful individual that you obviously are, when did you discover that you were being sold a bill of goods by TWI? Was there a specific event that opened your eyes? If you posted your story somewhere, send me a link. Thanks.
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic so I'll just say that my eyes started opening when I stumbled into GSC. Now, I had seen tiny glimpses since my days in Fellow Laborers in the mid 1970's but wasn't sure what I had seen. It's sorta like a bunch of little creeks that suddenly come together at a confluence to form one big river.
My friend's response: "It's not ME judging, it's God."
It takes some seasoning I believe to be able to tell whether or not one is being truly loving in regards to these things, especially when attempting to correct others soul searcher.
But when you friend would say "that" in response to my question it does seem to me that some seasoning is needed. I remember myself how often I shot my mouth off at first concerning every teany little thing I thought was right, and looking back at my infancy in TWI it is clear to me now that most all of it only shows some shortcoming on my part in regards to understanding and/or love.
But in general, when I truly think someone else will be the right one to judge, I usually just shut my mouth as a matter of prudency on my part. Especially in this case where Paul in Rom. 1&2 is going to such great lengths to show the believers how simply telling folks that some action according to scripture is wrong is not enough to release us of our responsibility to learn to handle things better ourselves. And from the kind of speaking against homosexuality that I believe is all too common in Christianity in general I believe that most of this illconsidered rebuke only pushes people farther and farther away from God. And if it truly is the GOODNESS of God that leads one to make changes in their life, then it may well be the hypocritical idjits who push people away from God...hhhmmm.
Paul does show IMO that when a person says, the commandment shows you are wrong, that IT IS THE SAME AS THEM JUDGING, NOT GOD.
And from the kind of speaking against homosexuality that I believe is all too common in Christianity in general I believe that most of this illconsidered rebuke only pushes people farther and farther away from God. And if it truly is the GOODNESS of God that leads one to make changes in their life, then it may well be the hypocritical idjits who push people away from God...hhhmmm.
Thanks, Jeff. You're absolutely right. The harsh judgement and condemnation offered by many extremist groups is certainly not going to attract many followers. Not around here, anyway.
Recently, some hate group from Kansas (they called themselves Christian something-or-other) came here to demonstrate at a local high school. Why they came here, and what exactly they were demonstrating against I'm not exactly sure of, but I did hear that they were carrying signs that read, "God hates fags."
And I have to wonder how many converts they expected to gain with rhetoric like that. Certainly nobody I know.
Anyway, happy ending to the story: they were virtually ignored by the community, the high school canceled classes so as not to give them an audience (ha-ha!) and they received very little news coverage.
It seems to me in general that if something that is pure like that record seems a little off it may well be that it is my sensibilities that need to be tweeked.
I have seen enough to know that in spite of the same human foibles, that expression of emotion between men is vastly different in the middle east compared to the west.
Heck, the Secret Service is trained to give their lives for the president of the U.S. but I bet never once in U.S. history has any such conversation occured between a president and a Secret Service agent.
I wonder if it because we immediately go to "romantic love" in our thinking.
All quotes from New International Version (to make a change from KJV):
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.
25 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
So: these acts defile the individuals; and they defile the land (country); and the land (=people thereof) is punished.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
(in this same section, Lev 20, this is lumped together with other capital sins such as idol worship (dedication to Molech), cursing one's parents, consulting mediums, adultery, incestuous relationships, and bestiality.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
So that's a lot of things that are capital crimes. Bestiality. Adultery. Envy. Murder. Disobedience / disrespect to parents. Arrogance. Slander.
God hates all of these. They are "worthy" of death (KJV), "deserve death" (NIV). Are we to execute them? No, the NT doesn't say so. And clearly it is not a sentence that was widely carried out even in OT times. No - God is patience and long-suffering, and allows people plenty of time and scope to change.
And does fear motivation actually change one's heart or mind? Or only change actions – not doing something for fear of being found out/consequences?
God loved us – and gave. And as we love him, we give ... give up our old God-offending lifestyles, so that we are more like the example set before us. We don't change overnight.
If one treats a homosexual differently from how one treats an adulterer, say, or even just an arrogant and boastful person, then one is a respecter of persons. Which is … a sin!! And the first person who's behavior one needs to be concerned about – is oneself!
Homosexuals should be welcome in church just as perpetrators of other unacceptable behavior are. All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
In conclusion, it seems to me that:
1. Homosexuality is unequivocably "detestable" to God;
2. So also is a very great deal of other behavior which is quite commonly found;
3. One type of behavior is to God no worse than other types of behavior;
4. Fear motivation doesn't effect change of heart, only (perhaps) change of behavior;
5. Love motivation does effect change of heart but it doesn't all happen at once;
6. We shouldn't operate double standards and villify one group of individuals whilst pretending other individuals who offend (including ourselves) are okay;
7. Watch out that we ourselves don't get puffed up into prideful misbehavior.
(As to whether homosexuality is innate or a choice isn't the topic, so I refrain from coment.)
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rhino
No, you didn't forget ... those are questions that could be asked and answered somewhere else, it is not a question of whether they matter, but they are a separate issue. That is a matter of applicat
rhino
It is YOUR judgment that I have harassed and need to justify anything. And the fact that other people are involved is why I want to get be sure the record is set straight. To be more straight forwar
rhino
I respond when the lies and accusations are repeated. I generally have not responded when someone else chimes in with their support against those hateful close minded people, unless I am addressed by
RumRunner
Couldn't concur more - even on those issues I may disagree/agree/hate/dislike - your analysis of our online culture is correct
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Bramble
Roy, thanks for a civil reply.
i disagree that a house bugler will always have the desire--I think plentyy of ex criminals overcome those desires or whatever motivated them.
Alchoholism is an addiction. Is addiction a sin? I guess I thought it was closer to an illness.
No offense, but your doctrine demands a lonely and unfulfilled life for the homosexual. Not everyone is cut out to live alone with no love life their whole life.
I am not surprised that a homosexual Christian would leave the church, find a church with different views or become an unbeliever under such a belief.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Bramble
God loves you my dear friend
your welcome
maybe each case is different but I use to take things that do not belong to me and I find the images of doing that act still planted in my mind as memories
something I must fight to keep buried
I see them all as habits we fight to change like smoking for some
there is no offense tooken but I see no one has to be lonely but they must divide love from sex or two people can have a relationship without having sex
I personally believe sex was design to make children and not to replace true love
but this is me and I may never understand all the ups and downs a homosexual Christian must deal with but by compairing them to other sins I can try
just trying to put things in a nut shell
one can be lonely in a married setting with children just somehing to note
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
I fail to see the point of your questions Lindy.
And I don't know why it's a question for you.
What if it is a sin?
What if it's not?
Why would Romans have any bearing on what you would say is sin?
You asked with an answer in your mind already imo.
I may be wrong, but from your response that's what it sounds like.
Perhaps that's why this thread is dead.
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Bramble
Lindy, I think it would be interesting to learn why the more liberal Christian churches think differrently than the more conservative churches on the subject.
In my area both the Episcopol church and the United Church of Christ/Congregational welcome gays into the congregation without that drive to change them--gay families etc. Maybe Eyes has some links, I haven't had the time to go through all her links on the other thread. And I don't think we have any posters from those churches here.
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cheranne
I love my Gay friend.
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Bramble
Roy, here's how I'm seeing your doctrine work in the real world.
One of my daughters has a very close friend, a gay boy, call him Freddie. He's known he's gay for a long time but he is only sixteen. Funny, but other people who know him have thought he was gay for years, but somehow his parents never noticed.
This kid is a hard worker in school, in all honors classes and at the top of many of them. He pretty much sweeps awards ceremonies at the school. He is also a class leader, spearheading all types of community and school service activities.
He has very demanding parents, the type who will freak out over a 'c' grade. They belong to a fundamentalist church and believe that homosexuals are abombinations etc.
Freddie has many friends but this year he met a boy on a debate trip who ives in a different city. Boyfreind Jay has accepting parents, he has pretty normal teenage boundaries as a far as I can tell.
Freddie decides he must come out to his parents. They totally freaked out, ground him, began arguing about his gayness, take away his computer and search his room and take pictures of Jay away(these were Jay on the debate competition pictures, not x rated). Freddie lives 17 miles out of town, so being grounded is very isolating.
A few months later parent file for divorce--his dad tells him he caused it with his gayness. Nice.
Kid is distraught and depressed. Parent do not want to consent to counseling though Freddie asks for help. Gay boy camp comes up. Freddie wants to run away, quit school, get a job.
Me and another mom tell Freddie he calls us if he runs away, we don't want to see him on the streets.
Freddie get counseling, finally. I and the other mom transport him to every debate meet for the rest of the season, parents have washed their hands of him, because he is of course still gay. We also buy him snacks for the bus trip and make sure our kids have enough money to cover him. Neglect--I think so, but not enough to concern the state.
Parents talk about boarding school. Parents consider changing highschool for some reason, but decide to let him stay because he is in all AP classes and they don't want to mess up his grades. This is all very upsetting to freddie.
How do you think it all looks to the gay boy?
He's a a failure.
He is responsible for his parent's marriage problems.
He is scared of gay camp and boarding school. Both are religious, he does not accept his parent's religion anymore.
He is in love with Jay and upset he can't even email him, Romeo and Juliet angst. Friends carry messages between the two.
He doesn't know how to not be gay.
He rebels and emails, also contacts a gay support groups.
Two different families have offered him a home if things get worse at his, which has to be confusing.
He feels life would be better if he could be emancipated and get away from home, but how will he get $ .
If he accepts and lives his parents doctrine:
He can't be in love or be attracted to anyone unless he becomes hetero, because of course he is attracted to boys..
He doesn't know how to change himself into a hetero(--and I for one am glad he is not using my daughter or another teen girl as 'cover.')
His future as this type of believer means no love life, no sex, no spouse, unless he changes into a hetero.
What I think--I think Freddie will wrangle a good scholarship, and probably one out of state. i think he will leave home the minute he is eighteen if not before, and I don't think he's coming back. I think he'll replace his family with people who like and care for him, and he won't have a hard time finding such people. I think he'll stay gay. I doubt he will turn into a promiscous party boy since he has a great deal of discipline in his life already at sixteen. I think that despite his gayness, he will have lots of success in lifebut I also thnk the type of rejection he has experienced with his own parents will affect him.
I think someday his parents will realize they're getting old, and they forced him out of their lives.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Bramble
God loves you my dear friend
Now I get what you mean by calling my doctrine but I believe you are wrong about my beliefs
My doctrine would be to live the love of God no matter what
While I believe being gay is against natural I understand more than I am willing to say what the boy is living and dealing with but no where near what he is face-ing in his life
I say love people where they are so what he is gay I am fat over 300 pounds and I had some Bi dreams in my life time
been called names to the point I believed I was something I never wanted to be
Life can turn you many ways what I am trying to say is I am trying to learn how to understand better but maybe I am saying it very poorly has I try to understand because we are all sinners
I have many Gay friends and I have done alot of things that you would not call normal for that out of being ashamed of doing them they will not see the light of day here
your friend being gay does not upset me nor do I judge him for it
why and how he got that way he may never be known and at this point in life I am sure he does not care
but I see the key is to love him for who he is
but I must not agree with him being gay being right but in the same coin I think I am wrong to eat the way I do
I see not one sin greater than another sin
I see all sins has things life has cause some we understand how and some we do not
peace
I like it when you talk about your friend and I am glad you are helping
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Grumpy
I know how this person feels, I come from a very dysfunctional group of "little" people as well!!
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Eyesopen
Heeheh heee haww heee hee haahaaha .... thanks, that was very refreshing.
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soul searcher
I haven't read this entire thread but here goes anyway...
One change I noticed in my ex-Way friend during her 20+ year absence (along with the acquisition of a variety of kooky beliefs) was a new-found hatred of gays and a belief that homosexuality is some kind of sin against God. It's so disappointing -- there's no talking to her on this subject. I try to look past it because I like her and I generally don't hold friends' racist, sexist or homophobic beliefs against them. I guess I'm tolerant that way.
(For the record, I'm not gay and don't have any loved ones who are. But I can tell you that if any of my kids grew up to be homosexual I would not judge them or condemn them about it, and I certainly wouldn't love them any less.)
Recently, gay marriage was on the table in NY State (it was voted down) and it's coming up for a vote by the state legislature in NJ. Maybe it's because I don't have a dog in this race but I could not care less if gay couples have the right to marry or not. It is a non-issue to me, personally. However, I can't figure out why it does bother certain people so much. Why is it a "threat"? Why do they think it's a sin against God? (Please don't point me to Romans or Corinthians, I've already read it.) And why are they so concerned about what consenting adults do behind closed doors?
I actually know a colleague -- a decent, professional, educated man -- who is considering enrolling his child in a parochial school because of some perceived risk that his child might "contract homosexuality" (my term, coined sarcastically) from some other public school kid. Even if exposure to homosexuality was enough to convert a heterosexual into a homosexual, what makes him (or anybody) think that private or parochial schools are devoid of gays?
I guess ignorance and stupidity know no bounds. It's sad.
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JeffSjo
I know that many Christians quote scriptures to condemn homosexuals.
It's too bad they don't think up an answer for when Paul asks,"Who are you to judge?" in Rom1
What Paul is more concerned about IMO is that the folks he is writing to don't condemn themselves by their condemnation of others.
Could there be a more direct cognitave tie in with Gospel scriptures where the Lord says many things similar to "Judge not lest ye be judged."?
Talk about missing the forest and seeing only one tree.......
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soul searcher
My friend's response: "It's not ME judging, it's God."
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GarthP2000
My response to your friend: "Well then, your god is pathetic!"
<_<
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waysider
soulsearcher
In the Advanced Class, one of the series of Power For Abundant Living classes, there is an entire section devoted to various "devil spirits" that are supposedly responsible for all sorts of maladies and behaviors that don't fit the norm. Among them are such things as alcoholism, sexual predation, suicide, depression, cancer and, yes, homosexuality. So, based on the teachings of The Way, your friend probably subscribes to the idea that homosexuals are devil possessed.
Allow me to take it a step further. In this same class, it is taught that there is a certain kind of devil spirit called a "familiar spirit". Supposedly, these spirits hang around, spying on "believers" and gathering any bits and pieces of information they can, such as your deceased great uncle's middle name and the time you flunked a geometry test but hid it from your parents. So, based on this kind of thinking, your friend probably avoids contact with gay people because doing so would be fraternizing with "the devil" and if there is a familiar spirit nearby, it could use the knowledge of that against her.
To make this even more bizarre, you have to understand that Wierwille, himself, was a sexual predator who spent much of his waking hours in a state of inebriation and ultimately died of cancer.
DEATH CERTIFICATE
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soul searcher
Waysider, I'm curious: being the intelligent, insightful individual that you obviously are, when did you discover that you were being sold a bill of goods by TWI? Was there a specific event that opened your eyes? If you posted your story somewhere, send me a link. Thanks.
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waysider
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic so I'll just say that my eyes started opening when I stumbled into GSC. Now, I had seen tiny glimpses since my days in Fellow Laborers in the mid 1970's but wasn't sure what I had seen. It's sorta like a bunch of little creeks that suddenly come together at a confluence to form one big river.
O.K.-----back to topic.
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RumRunner
Yep - I'm with you Garth - Wierwille rapes women with impunity then says queers have devil spirits. WTFO?
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JeffSjo
It takes some seasoning I believe to be able to tell whether or not one is being truly loving in regards to these things, especially when attempting to correct others soul searcher.
But when you friend would say "that" in response to my question it does seem to me that some seasoning is needed. I remember myself how often I shot my mouth off at first concerning every teany little thing I thought was right, and looking back at my infancy in TWI it is clear to me now that most all of it only shows some shortcoming on my part in regards to understanding and/or love.
But in general, when I truly think someone else will be the right one to judge, I usually just shut my mouth as a matter of prudency on my part. Especially in this case where Paul in Rom. 1&2 is going to such great lengths to show the believers how simply telling folks that some action according to scripture is wrong is not enough to release us of our responsibility to learn to handle things better ourselves. And from the kind of speaking against homosexuality that I believe is all too common in Christianity in general I believe that most of this illconsidered rebuke only pushes people farther and farther away from God. And if it truly is the GOODNESS of God that leads one to make changes in their life, then it may well be the hypocritical idjits who push people away from God...hhhmmm.
Paul does show IMO that when a person says, the commandment shows you are wrong, that IT IS THE SAME AS THEM JUDGING, NOT GOD.
(edited for spelling and clarity)
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soul searcher
Thanks, Jeff. You're absolutely right. The harsh judgement and condemnation offered by many extremist groups is certainly not going to attract many followers. Not around here, anyway.
Recently, some hate group from Kansas (they called themselves Christian something-or-other) came here to demonstrate at a local high school. Why they came here, and what exactly they were demonstrating against I'm not exactly sure of, but I did hear that they were carrying signs that read, "God hates fags."
And I have to wonder how many converts they expected to gain with rhetoric like that. Certainly nobody I know.
Anyway, happy ending to the story: they were virtually ignored by the community, the high school canceled classes so as not to give them an audience (ha-ha!) and they received very little news coverage.
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cman
i wonder what some onlooker would say....
to or about two guys talking,
do you love me?
yes
Do you love me?
of course i do
Do you love me!
Yes always and I would give my life for you.
Peter and Jesus.
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RumRunner
Excellent!!
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JeffSjo
It seems to me in general that if something that is pure like that record seems a little off it may well be that it is my sensibilities that need to be tweeked.
I have seen enough to know that in spite of the same human foibles, that expression of emotion between men is vastly different in the middle east compared to the west.
Heck, the Secret Service is trained to give their lives for the president of the U.S. but I bet never once in U.S. history has any such conversation occured between a president and a Secret Service agent.
I wonder if it because we immediately go to "romantic love" in our thinking.
(edited for the sake of clarification)
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Twinky
Interesting topic, this.
All quotes from New International Version (to make a change from KJV):
So: these acts defile the individuals; and they defile the land (country); and the land (=people thereof) is punished.
(in this same section, Lev 20, this is lumped together with other capital sins such as idol worship (dedication to Molech), cursing one's parents, consulting mediums, adultery, incestuous relationships, and bestiality.
So that's a lot of things that are capital crimes. Bestiality. Adultery. Envy. Murder. Disobedience / disrespect to parents. Arrogance. Slander.
Yet adulterers were and are allowed to live, and nowadays few in society would shun adulterers (and who knows, there could be "adulterers" in the biblical sense at the Café today – who here has been divorced and has subsequently remarried, hold your hand up!) Some adulterers enter second marriages – the ceremonies performed in churches. Murderers are not always executed; some are released after just a lengthy prison sentence. And who hasn't at some time been just a little envious, deceitful (white lie, anyone?), boastful? (In TWI it might be said that all of us were boastful, glorying in our "knowledge.")
God hates all of these. They are "worthy" of death (KJV), "deserve death" (NIV). Are we to execute them? No, the NT doesn't say so. And clearly it is not a sentence that was widely carried out even in OT times. No - God is patience and long-suffering, and allows people plenty of time and scope to change.
And does fear motivation actually change one's heart or mind? Or only change actions – not doing something for fear of being found out/consequences?
God loved us – and gave. And as we love him, we give ... give up our old God-offending lifestyles, so that we are more like the example set before us. We don't change overnight.
If one treats a homosexual differently from how one treats an adulterer, say, or even just an arrogant and boastful person, then one is a respecter of persons. Which is … a sin!! And the first person who's behavior one needs to be concerned about – is oneself!
Homosexuals should be welcome in church just as perpetrators of other unacceptable behavior are. All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
In conclusion, it seems to me that:
1. Homosexuality is unequivocably "detestable" to God;
2. So also is a very great deal of other behavior which is quite commonly found;
3. One type of behavior is to God no worse than other types of behavior;
4. Fear motivation doesn't effect change of heart, only (perhaps) change of behavior;
5. Love motivation does effect change of heart but it doesn't all happen at once;
6. We shouldn't operate double standards and villify one group of individuals whilst pretending other individuals who offend (including ourselves) are okay;
7. Watch out that we ourselves don't get puffed up into prideful misbehavior.
(As to whether homosexuality is innate or a choice isn't the topic, so I refrain from coment.)
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