Little men jusified in their own minds get to wield authority over underlings and cant resist their first inclination to humiliate others so as to elevate themselves.
Little men jusified in their own minds get to wield authority over underlings and cant resist their first inclination to humiliate others so as to elevate themselves.
Nothing new in any of this.
Combination --- Lol!!! Too true!
Hey there Shaz. :)
When I first saw the green card, I assumed it was all about *bible*, and nothing else.
I figured the *truth from error* meant bible verses, interpretation, yada, yada.
It wasn't until (much) later that I discovered it encompassed much more than that. :(
Perhaps the original *truth from error* statement was meant as what I originally thought it to be.
Perhaps not. It certainly became different in meaning the longer I was involved.
Legalistic became the order of the day, whereas (imo) grace once abounded.
For what it's worth --- I still see things in black and white. However ----
These days, I'm willing to consider shades of gray. ;)
I think if there was a man in existance who was truly content with himself and his own being he might be able to act in loving fashion tward others, but clearly such men either dont exist or dont rise to positions of leadership and authority within churches of the cult persuasion.
Strangely.
I have known loving persons of the religious variety, but these never seemed to rise to the pinnacle of leadership, being over run and overwhelmed by more forceful and assertive personages of the assertive and commanding variety.
I think if there was a man in existance who was truly content with himself and his own being he might be able to act in loving fashion tward others, but clearly such men either dont exist or dont rise to positions of leadership and authority within churches of the cult persuasion.
Strangely.
I have known loving persons of the religious variety, but these never seemed to rise to the pinnacle of leadership, being over run and overwhelmed by more forceful and assertive personages of the assertive and commanding variety.
I don't know why (haven't thought of this novel in YEARS),
but some of what you said reminded me of: SIDDHARTHA, by Herman Hesse.
Siddhartha was blessed in appearance, intelligence, and charisma. In order to find meaning in life, he discarded his promising future for the life of a wandering ascetic. Still, true happiness evaded him. Then a life of pleasure and titillation merely eroded away his spiritual gains until he was just like all the other "child people," dragged around by his desires.
Insert Doctor Vic or Jimmy Jones or Bagwan Rajneesh where it says Siddhartha and that says it all then?
I think if there was a man in existance who was truly content with himself and his own being he might be able to act in loving fashion tward others, but clearly such men either dont exist or dont rise to positions of leadership and authority within churches of the cult persuasion.
Strangely.
I have known loving persons of the religious variety, but these never seemed to rise to the pinnacle of leadership, being over run and overwhelmed by more forceful and assertive personages of the assertive and commanding variety.
I think part of the reason compassionate, loving Christians are slow to rise
in organizations is that they're not trying to climb the ladder- they're too busy
loving people and showing compassion to care if someone wants to give them
If there had been real spiritual perception and awareness, they would have realized that even Jesus knew NOT everything was black and white. Some problems were caused by demons, and others weren't. Some actions were right for some people, but wrong for others, depending on the heart with which they did them. God always looks at the heart.
Even in the political arena, not everything is black and white. Many of us were brainwashed into thinking that to be Christian automatically meant being right-wing Republicans. Prior to that (in my teens) I had thought of myself as more on the left. Nowadays I realize neither side has the answers. I'm not just middle-of-the-road, I'm OFF-ROAD!
Spiritual awareness...Ha! What twi passed off as spiritual awareness was nothing more than an arrogant, self serving, "perception"...usually fueled by ego and smugness...
That "knowing look" that would come from someone wearing the right name tag...it was a game. Squint your eyes like Clint Eastwood and slowly look around the room...pretend that your own stupid thoughts are actually a message from the divine creator...sent ESPECIALLY to you! (meaning...not them of the lesser name tags)...
It was the stone wall that reason would run into...there was no logic or reason involved in the process...a proclamation would be made and those who were also "spiritual enough" would capitulate and abandon reasoning in favor of the "info from the cookie jar". It was the catch 22 of Wierwille's "law of believing"...in action. It became a tool of abuse and a substitute for honesty.
Pau1 Brook5 once said to us that the more of the word we learned, the more black & white the world became. He's right.... from a TWI perspective. The more we subscribed to TWI's view of the scriptures, the more judgmental we became - after all, we were the only ones with the truth!
Things were "right" or "wrong" - there was no gray area and there were no exceptions, except where leadership was concerned. And, to make it even more confusing, what was "right" one day could be "wrong" the next.... buying a house or financing a car, for example.
Pau1 Brook5 once said to us that the more of the word we learned, the more black & white the world became. He's right.... from a TWI perspective. The more we subscribed to TWI's view of the scriptures, the more judgmental we became - after all, we were the only ones with the truth!
That's right...everything was either black or white...no middle ground...no room for debate, disagreement, or different conclusions...this was wayworld...a place where your own ideas were relinquished over to the group think mentality...
No room to question or doubt...your thinking process was predetermined FOR you by "someone else"...not brainwashing?
When I was kicked out of TWI in 2001 I was still married to my first wife, who had been involved in TWI since '71 or '72. She was allowed to stay in.
I remember her being genuinely concerned that we would not be able to "agree" on anything, since she was in TWI and I wasn't. At the time I still was a Christian and still believed that one could "work the Word" using the magic decoder ring of "keys to research" and divine the will of God. I told her that we were both adults who had been taught how to read and understand the bible and that surely we could use our skill at "working the Word" to reach a godly compromise if we disagreed.
Several days later she announced that she would never compromise on the Word and that my thinking was a priori wrong due to my separation from "the household". She had the full backing of local TWI leadership in her position. Shortly thereafter she kicked me out of our home, convinced that she was "unequally yoked to an unbeliever" because I was no longer welcome at TWI fellowships.
Pau1 Brook5 once said to us that the more of the word we learned, the more black & white the world became. He's right.... from a TWI perspective. The more we subscribed to TWI's view of the scriptures, the more judgmental we became - after all, we were the only ones with the truth!
Things were "right" or "wrong" - there was no gray area and there were no exceptions, except where leadership was concerned. And, to make it even more confusing, what was "right" one day could be "wrong" the next.... buying a house or financing a car, for example.
Exceptions where twi leadership was concerned??.......ABSOLUTELY.
VPW kept pornographic material in his collection, his library.......yet, "everything gives off something" doctrine was a staple teaching for decades in twi.
VPW went to seances and hooky-pook situations to learn how the devil worked........yet, anyone else could easily get pozzezzed as a new boot in hell.
VPW told the WOW men "to keep it in their pants"...........yet, wierwille couldn't abide by his admonitions, or his marriage vows to solely cherish and love his wife.
Don Wierwille would smoke at twi staff meetings.........yet, the staff and corps (especially from 1995-1998 during cutbacks) were mandated to STOP SMOKING, period.
Rosie enjoyed her pet and swimming pool..............yet, all corps were told to get rid of any "serious pets" and cut expenses when 10% salary cuts were issued.
One of the principles in "Christian Etiquette" was to follow what the host did. Yet I remember a campfire at Emporia where VP lit up a cigarette, but when one of the CD guys lit one up, VP reamed him out in front of everybody. He said, essentially, that you only do what you're directly told you can do, and you had to earn the privileges that he had. At the time I didn't know what to make of it. Now I see what massive ego and hypocrisy it was.
Mark, I don't know why, but the Monkees song made me cry. Their youth, innocence, and the words! Ohmygosh.
Shaz, thank you for this thread.
Spiritual perception and awareness -- black and white -- oh my.
I endeavored for a LONG time to try to be spiritually perceptive or aware, but it just wasn't happening for me -- EVER. I think that's one of the most difficult things I had to come to terms with, and I don't think I really did until Wierwille died. Don't ask me why because I don't know.
To me, personally, things can't be black and white. No, Im not talking about "It's grace, do whatever you like". I'm talking more from -- that Jesus Christ is a personal lord and savior.
When some thump their bible and / or their beliefs, I just think of him and how he loves me, personally.
Is love black and white? When someone is hurt, is there a textbook?
I could go on and on thinking out loud, but I don't want to bore you.
You're welcome, Excy. And I agree -- there's no one right way to have a relationship. You can't box it into a black or white, right or wrong rulebook. You can draw broad limits, but will never cover every nuance.
I was also thinking about a funny-weird incident that happened at Rome City, 1979-80. Wierwille had brought in a country western band to perform for us, non-TWI. I don't even remember how he got a hold of them.
Our applause after each song depended upon how "right on" the lyrics were. A mention of God got a big round of applause, and the lead singer said something like, "Oh, now I've got your number," and launched into a sappy, churchy thing that we didn't care for. He couldn't figure us out, but he tried really hard to change the set to what he thought we would like. His stage presence was also kinda Las Vegas, over the top.
Later, Wierwille decided to make a teaching moment out of the concert. He asked us what we thought of this group. When we didn't come up with much (we'd learned by then not to give our opinions even when asked), Wierwille kind of sneered that we lacked spiritual perception, that the group was working for the wrong God, and that one guy was even possessed.
It was the kind of statement that makes you go, "wow, I didn't even see that, 'Doctor' is really tapped in," when the reality is there is no way to analyze the truth of his statement. Even at the time, I thought he was off the wall, but we had been taught that if we didn't understand something to "hold it in abeyance," and that's what I did.
I think walking around claiming to have "spiritual perception" was a great way to show off, and no one could prove you wrong. Wierwille did it, and it sparked everyone to emulate him, though there was a definite nametag pecking order.
Yes, the truth certainly was separated. Left us with only error.
"In depth spiritual perception and awareness"
An interesting one, this. When I was out Lightbearers (3 times, but one time the whole in rez Corps was considered abject failures, so they threatened to bin all of us but later sent us out again to do better) - anyway, lots of people came back with these tales of devil spirits they had seen or exorcized or what have you. Me, I didn't see any of that. Dealt with my own challenges, got on doing what we were supposed to be doing, didn't see anything particularly unusual. I wondered if God had left me out of something or I was a real spiritual dullard. I don't now; now I wonder what kind of hysteria or desire to please had infected those who did experience these things that they claimed to have seen. Or whether they were just plain lying.
This thread has mused on gray areas. The more time I've been "out", the more I've become aware in a real way (not just having read them) of the many scriptures that say the opposite of other scriptures TWI revered. In other words, it's NOT "one size fits all."
A big one they NEVER discussed and only hinted at, in passing, in PFAL with the "three fingers pointing back at you" analogy (which analogy was just part of the "hook"to fool you into thinking what a thoughtful and careful ministry this was) is this one:
Mt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Just think how different things might have been had this become one of the Corps retemories!
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Combination
Little men jusified in their own minds get to wield authority over underlings and cant resist their first inclination to humiliate others so as to elevate themselves.
Nothing new in any of this.
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Combination
My own dear mother, after becoming church innactive, had a friend acting as occassional gardener, came working at her place once every couple weeks.
Anyways, he had a pair of boots stored in the laundry, and one day a church visitor must have seen these boots.
Next, the church deacons turn up questioning dear mother regarding any 'improper" relationship she might be engaged in.
She explained that the gardener was a harmless and innocent friend.
One of the deacons replied "We must be carefull, very quickly and almost without thinking a hand can find itself straying towards a crotch".
Imagine a church deacon saying such a thing to a 65 year old woman.
So these are the kinds of idiot sleazes that are running other peoples lives.
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dmiller
Combination --- Lol!!! Too true!
Hey there Shaz. :)
When I first saw the green card, I assumed it was all about *bible*, and nothing else.
I figured the *truth from error* meant bible verses, interpretation, yada, yada.
It wasn't until (much) later that I discovered it encompassed much more than that. :(
Perhaps the original *truth from error* statement was meant as what I originally thought it to be.
Perhaps not. It certainly became different in meaning the longer I was involved.
Legalistic became the order of the day, whereas (imo) grace once abounded.
For what it's worth --- I still see things in black and white. However ----
These days, I'm willing to consider shades of gray. ;)
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Combination
I think if there was a man in existance who was truly content with himself and his own being he might be able to act in loving fashion tward others, but clearly such men either dont exist or dont rise to positions of leadership and authority within churches of the cult persuasion.
Strangely.
I have known loving persons of the religious variety, but these never seemed to rise to the pinnacle of leadership, being over run and overwhelmed by more forceful and assertive personages of the assertive and commanding variety.
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dmiller
I don't know why (haven't thought of this novel in YEARS),
but some of what you said reminded me of: SIDDHARTHA, by Herman Hesse.
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Combination
Insert Doctor Vic or Jimmy Jones or Bagwan Rajneesh where it says Siddhartha and that says it all then?
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dmiller
Actually --- No. It's been 40 years since I read that book, but the one thing I remember about it is --
(somewhere in the pages), folks went to the river to meet the two men there, convinced they were
*spiritual*, just because they thought so, when in reality they weren't. :)
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WordWolf
I think part of the reason compassionate, loving Christians are slow to rise
in organizations is that they're not trying to climb the ladder- they're too busy
loving people and showing compassion to care if someone wants to give them
a title for doing it.
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Mark Clarke
If there had been real spiritual perception and awareness, they would have realized that even Jesus knew NOT everything was black and white. Some problems were caused by demons, and others weren't. Some actions were right for some people, but wrong for others, depending on the heart with which they did them. God always looks at the heart.
Even in the political arena, not everything is black and white. Many of us were brainwashed into thinking that to be Christian automatically meant being right-wing Republicans. Prior to that (in my teens) I had thought of myself as more on the left. Nowadays I realize neither side has the answers. I'm not just middle-of-the-road, I'm OFF-ROAD!
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Mark Clarke
TWO SONGS CALLED "SHADES OF GRAY (or GREY)" --
One by the Monkees:
(By Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil)
When the world and I were young,
Just yesterday.
Life was such a simple game,
A child could play.
It was easy then to tell right from wrong.
Easy then to tell weak from strong.
When a man should stand and fight,
Or just go along.
But today there is no day or night
Today there is no dark or light.
Today there is no black or white,
Only shades of gray.
I remember when the answers seemed so clear
We had never lived with doubt or tasted fear.
It was easy then to tell truth from lies
Selling out from compromise
Who to love and who to hate,
The foolish from the wise.
But today there is no day or night
Today there is no dark or light.
Today there is no black or white,
Only shades of gray.
[instumental interlude]
It was easy then to know what was fair
When to keep and when to share.
How much to protect your heart
And how much to care.
But today there is no day or night
Today there is no dark or light.
Today there is no black or white,
Only shades of gray.
Only shades of gray.
...and the other by Billy Joel:
Some things were perfectly clear,
seen with the vision of youth
No doubts and nothing to fear,
I claimed the corner on truth
These days it's harder to say
I know what I'm fighting for
My faith is falling away
I'm not that sure anymore
Shades of grey wherever I go
The more I find out the less that I know
Black and white is how it should be
But shades of grey are the colors I see
Once there were trenches and walls
and one point of every view
Fight 'til the other man falls
Kill him before he kills you
These days the edges are blurred,
I'm old and tired of war
I hear the other man's words
I'm not that sure anymore
Shades of grey are all that I find
When I look to the enemy line
Black and white was so easy for me
But shades of grey are the colors I see
Now with the wisdom of years
I try to reason things out
And the only people I fear
are those who never have doubts
Save us all from arrogant men,
and all the causes they're for
I won't be righteous again
I'm not that sure anymore
Shades of grey are all that I find
when I look to the enemy line
There ain't no rainbows shining on me
Shades of grey are the colours I see
Shades of grey wherever I go
The more I find out the less that I know
There ain't no rainbows shining on me
Shades of grey are the colors I see
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GrouchoMarxJr
Spiritual awareness...Ha! What twi passed off as spiritual awareness was nothing more than an arrogant, self serving, "perception"...usually fueled by ego and smugness...
That "knowing look" that would come from someone wearing the right name tag...it was a game. Squint your eyes like Clint Eastwood and slowly look around the room...pretend that your own stupid thoughts are actually a message from the divine creator...sent ESPECIALLY to you! (meaning...not them of the lesser name tags)...
It was the stone wall that reason would run into...there was no logic or reason involved in the process...a proclamation would be made and those who were also "spiritual enough" would capitulate and abandon reasoning in favor of the "info from the cookie jar". It was the catch 22 of Wierwille's "law of believing"...in action. It became a tool of abuse and a substitute for honesty.
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Belle
Pau1 Brook5 once said to us that the more of the word we learned, the more black & white the world became. He's right.... from a TWI perspective. The more we subscribed to TWI's view of the scriptures, the more judgmental we became - after all, we were the only ones with the truth!
Things were "right" or "wrong" - there was no gray area and there were no exceptions, except where leadership was concerned. And, to make it even more confusing, what was "right" one day could be "wrong" the next.... buying a house or financing a car, for example.
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GrouchoMarxJr
That's right...everything was either black or white...no middle ground...no room for debate, disagreement, or different conclusions...this was wayworld...a place where your own ideas were relinquished over to the group think mentality...
No room to question or doubt...your thinking process was predetermined FOR you by "someone else"...not brainwashing?
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Oakspear
When I was kicked out of TWI in 2001 I was still married to my first wife, who had been involved in TWI since '71 or '72. She was allowed to stay in.
I remember her being genuinely concerned that we would not be able to "agree" on anything, since she was in TWI and I wasn't. At the time I still was a Christian and still believed that one could "work the Word" using the magic decoder ring of "keys to research" and divine the will of God. I told her that we were both adults who had been taught how to read and understand the bible and that surely we could use our skill at "working the Word" to reach a godly compromise if we disagreed.
Several days later she announced that she would never compromise on the Word and that my thinking was a priori wrong due to my separation from "the household". She had the full backing of local TWI leadership in her position. Shortly thereafter she kicked me out of our home, convinced that she was "unequally yoked to an unbeliever" because I was no longer welcome at TWI fellowships.
Black & white thinking? You bet.
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skyrider
Exceptions where twi leadership was concerned??.......ABSOLUTELY.
VPW kept pornographic material in his collection, his library.......yet, "everything gives off something" doctrine was a staple teaching for decades in twi.
VPW went to seances and hooky-pook situations to learn how the devil worked........yet, anyone else could easily get pozzezzed as a new boot in hell.
VPW told the WOW men "to keep it in their pants"...........yet, wierwille couldn't abide by his admonitions, or his marriage vows to solely cherish and love his wife.
Don Wierwille would smoke at twi staff meetings.........yet, the staff and corps (especially from 1995-1998 during cutbacks) were mandated to STOP SMOKING, period.
Rosie enjoyed her pet and swimming pool..............yet, all corps were told to get rid of any "serious pets" and cut expenses when 10% salary cuts were issued.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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Mark Clarke
One of the principles in "Christian Etiquette" was to follow what the host did. Yet I remember a campfire at Emporia where VP lit up a cigarette, but when one of the CD guys lit one up, VP reamed him out in front of everybody. He said, essentially, that you only do what you're directly told you can do, and you had to earn the privileges that he had. At the time I didn't know what to make of it. Now I see what massive ego and hypocrisy it was.
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excathedra
Mark, I don't know why, but the Monkees song made me cry. Their youth, innocence, and the words! Ohmygosh.
Shaz, thank you for this thread.
Spiritual perception and awareness -- black and white -- oh my.
I endeavored for a LONG time to try to be spiritually perceptive or aware, but it just wasn't happening for me -- EVER. I think that's one of the most difficult things I had to come to terms with, and I don't think I really did until Wierwille died. Don't ask me why because I don't know.
To me, personally, things can't be black and white. No, Im not talking about "It's grace, do whatever you like". I'm talking more from -- that Jesus Christ is a personal lord and savior.
When some thump their bible and / or their beliefs, I just think of him and how he loves me, personally.
Is love black and white? When someone is hurt, is there a textbook?
I could go on and on thinking out loud, but I don't want to bore you.
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excathedra
--
It was easy then to know what was fair
When to keep and when to share.
How much to protect your heart
And how much to care.
--
I don't know if I ever really knew that, thus my involvement in The Way....
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excathedra
we are more or less the same
after changes, we are more or less the same
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Mark Clarke
(((((Excie)))))
That Monkees song always made me cry too.
I like balancing it with the defiant attitude of the Billy Joel one.
"Save us all from arrogant men,
and all the causes they're for..."
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shazdancer
You're welcome, Excy. And I agree -- there's no one right way to have a relationship. You can't box it into a black or white, right or wrong rulebook. You can draw broad limits, but will never cover every nuance.
I was also thinking about a funny-weird incident that happened at Rome City, 1979-80. Wierwille had brought in a country western band to perform for us, non-TWI. I don't even remember how he got a hold of them.
Our applause after each song depended upon how "right on" the lyrics were. A mention of God got a big round of applause, and the lead singer said something like, "Oh, now I've got your number," and launched into a sappy, churchy thing that we didn't care for. He couldn't figure us out, but he tried really hard to change the set to what he thought we would like. His stage presence was also kinda Las Vegas, over the top.
Later, Wierwille decided to make a teaching moment out of the concert. He asked us what we thought of this group. When we didn't come up with much (we'd learned by then not to give our opinions even when asked), Wierwille kind of sneered that we lacked spiritual perception, that the group was working for the wrong God, and that one guy was even possessed.
It was the kind of statement that makes you go, "wow, I didn't even see that, 'Doctor' is really tapped in," when the reality is there is no way to analyze the truth of his statement. Even at the time, I thought he was off the wall, but we had been taught that if we didn't understand something to "hold it in abeyance," and that's what I did.
I think walking around claiming to have "spiritual perception" was a great way to show off, and no one could prove you wrong. Wierwille did it, and it sparked everyone to emulate him, though there was a definite nametag pecking order.
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waysider
Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.
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cheranne
One of my favorite quotes
"Do not assume that divine guidance flows only when you are in need of help. Guidance continues to flow whether or not you have problems.
It transcends problems, heartbreaks, and traumas,
flowing through dreams and illuminations.
Whether guidance comes during times of tranquility or trauma, however,
it is up to you to have the courage to acknowledge it"
~ Caroline Myss ~
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Twinky
An interesting one, this. When I was out Lightbearers (3 times, but one time the whole in rez Corps was considered abject failures, so they threatened to bin all of us but later sent us out again to do better) - anyway, lots of people came back with these tales of devil spirits they had seen or exorcized or what have you. Me, I didn't see any of that. Dealt with my own challenges, got on doing what we were supposed to be doing, didn't see anything particularly unusual. I wondered if God had left me out of something or I was a real spiritual dullard. I don't now; now I wonder what kind of hysteria or desire to please had infected those who did experience these things that they claimed to have seen. Or whether they were just plain lying.
This thread has mused on gray areas. The more time I've been "out", the more I've become aware in a real way (not just having read them) of the many scriptures that say the opposite of other scriptures TWI revered. In other words, it's NOT "one size fits all."
A big one they NEVER discussed and only hinted at, in passing, in PFAL with the "three fingers pointing back at you" analogy (which analogy was just part of the "hook"to fool you into thinking what a thoughtful and careful ministry this was) is this one:
Mt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Just think how different things might have been had this become one of the Corps retemories!
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