When I was a WOW I was sent to the limb city. The limb leader had a problem with his neighbor--the neighbor's lawn died and everyone elses was green. The limb leader said it was because the guy was a problem--God killed the other guys lawn for opposing the limb leader.
What a crock.
Didn't this whole thing start because VP looked around and saw little of the "abundant life" in his congregation?
Seems to me he ran around finding theology that supported his idea of what the abundant life meant.
What if he was wrong? What? Ooops sorry?
Maybe he just didn't get it--he obviously didn't like what most other Christian denominations taught and believed.
The whole thing seems to have built on what VP thought the bible meant by certain terms--abundance-power-grace/sin-the Holy Spirit--JCING--believing.
IMHO it was his own personal theology--his quest for whatever. . . little to do with Christianity--hard to have when Jesus is absent.
VP didn't LIKE Christianity--the Church or Holiness!!! What made us think he alone figured it all out?? Oh yeah, I remember--snow on the gas pumps.
Big of him to share it with us and leave a wake of destruction along the way. I should have known when I heard abortion was A-okay because of "Breath Life".
TWI teaches that the Old Testament was addressed to Jews of the Law administration, not to born again believers of the Grace administration. This is a problem for TWI, because tithing is never once mentioned in the Church Epistles. The few references to tithing in the NT are in Matthew, Luke and Hebrews, and refer to OT practices, never to principles believers should follow. In fact, tithing is only criticized, not honored, in Matthew and Luke because the tithers were not living a life of love, nor following Jesus Christ.
WAP is stuck with devaluing the OT while quoting only it to teach tithing. The reason tithing is not taught in the New Testament is because tithing is not a law or requirement to be followed by born again believers in order to obtain financial prosperity or for any other reason. If this was an essential principle for believers, the NT would certainly say this repeatedly, but it does not
Reviewing this thread and I wanted to check something out, so I looked for my copy of Christians Should Be
Didn't you always wonder about that little pamphlet? Here you have some topic that was elevated to a station second only to being "born again." It was preached about plenty, yelled, screamed and threatened about plenty...as I recall the Cro-Magnon from Okie used to say something like, If you don't give at least ten percent god won't have time to spit on you. But the basic "research" (used loosely) was a small pamphlet. A little thing that basically quoted a lot of OT telling us to give so much material wealth to TWI (in lieu of god's actuial presence - uhhh even THAT is a contradiction - if god is really omnipresent).
One little pamphlet which if you didn't understand and/or follow god won't even spit on you. Seems like if it was THAT important more work would have been published - that is if it COULD be published based on HONEST research.
I am not against charitable giving of any sort - just can't buy off on a little pamphlet being the doctrinal cornerstone of whether or not god spits on you. Besides - if I give my tithe or ABS WHY WOULD I WANT GOD TO SPIT ON ME ANYWAY?
TWI makes a careful distinction between the words tithing and abundant sharing because they are different actions (10 percent vs. more than 10 percent, with different results (material vs. spiritual blessings).The problem is, the word "tithe" never appears in the Church epistles, and there is no Greek word for "abundant sharing." Not to worry. TWI inserts the word "abundant sharing" and "tithing" into verses in which they do not exist.:
"II Corinthians 8:4:... that we would receive the gift [abundant sharing]..."
"1 Corinthians 16:1-3:... then I will send to bring your liberality [gift- abundant sharing] unto Jerusalem..."
"Galatians 6:6:... Let him that is taught in the word communicate [share fully]..."
"Ephesians 4:28: ...that [purpose] he [that believer who is renewing his mind] may have [God wants our need met] to give [tithing is minimum] to him that needeth."
Note: the words in square [parentheses] are added by TWI.
The Greek word for "gift" or "liberality" in II Cor. 8:4 and I Cor 16:3 is charis, a very common word for grace, favor or gift which is used over 150 times in the NT. It is most often used of God's grace in Jesus Christ and is very seldom used of financial gifts. WAP ignores the actual Greek usage and implies that it means explicitly giving more than 10 percent of income, not any other kind of giving (such as giving less than 10 percent).
WAP inserts words including "tithing" and "abundant sharing" into verses in which they do not exist, thereby adding Way leaders' ideas into Scripture in an attempt to force Scripture to say what it does not. The Way Int's word means what it says and says what it means.
I'm not completely sure this comment is what was sought for in this thread, but for those interested I offer the following concerning the "tithe":
As I understand it, the tithe in the written law was required (among the tribes of ISRAEL) only by Farmers and those who raised Livestock. It was to be one-tenth from eleven of the twelve tribes, and was given to those in the tribe of Levi (the ministers) who were to take care of the temple, etc. being excluded from "secular work".
Within Levi, were another group called the Priests. They served IN the temple; the others in Levi served the temple itself. Another requirement was for the "collectors" in Levi to separate out ten-percent of the total tithe (one one-hundreth, in other words) and give that directly to the priests, so they may EAT. (By the way, this portion was to be the BEST OF THE BEST, of crops and animals.)
Other uses for the animals for the Priests within Levi were for sacrifice, including all the details concerning what to do with the the blood, etc, according to the law.
The ministers in Levi were to take care of the building, adorning and maintaining of the temple itself. They also managed what was left of the tithe -- the remaining nine-tenths which were not given to the Priests. This provided food for them also. What was left over remained in the "Storehouse" and was to be used as the rest of the tribes of Israel had NEED. In times of famine or trouble, it was measured back to them, so that Israel as a whole did not have to suffer.
As for the rest of Israel who had professions other than farming or raising livestock, it was available at certain times throughout the year (like during the various Feasts and Festivals) to contribute to Levi "freewill offerings". These could be anything such as cloth, precious metals, pottery, etc. which was used to adorn the temple, and also to provide a "base" for distribution among all Israelites when NEEDS arose.
NOW -- isn't it curious that TWI "required" everyone to give the tithe, no matter what they did for a living? And just how much of that ever went back to the people when a need arose among them? If you suffered loss, it was because you did not "properly operate the principles of believing", etc. and you were left to suffer for your actions, or lack thereof because you "deserved it". (There were however, perhaps some isolated instances where TWI did step in to help in a dire situation, but it was not their "usual practice", as it was among Israel.)
Another thing: Mal 3:10 says to "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there be meat (does it say MONEY?) in mine house..." Remember, the reason for it in the first place was so that the tribe of Levi COULD EAT! -- So why not merely provide TWI with FOOD itself instead of money? And if you wanted to give money or other things of value, that was up to you. And there was no requirement UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES as to any amount to be given by FREEWILL OFFERINGS (other than meat and grain)!
And besides all that, we all have been taught that we are NOT under "The Law", so why the requirement at all? The word "tithe" does not even appear in any of the Epistles written to us, so why does TWI try to apply it to ALL THE FOLLOWERS?...
As their prime example they use Abraham, who "gave tithes to Melchisedec". They say that since our believing should be based upon Abraham (see Romans) and not the law, then we should do as he did EVEN BEFORE the LAW was written for Israel in tablets of stone.
So just what did Abraham (then Abram) do? And just who was this "Melchisedec, the King of Salem"? As the story goes, Abram's nephew Lot and his family, friends and possessions were take captive in Sodom where he lived. Abram became minded to go to battle, which he did, sucessfully rescuing them all.
Upon returning from the battle, the record states that Abram gave "tithes of all" to the King of Salem (Melchisedec). (And remember now, this all took place before the "written law".) In studying the history of this region (from secular books) I found there was a requirement where Abram lived that one-tenth of any spoils taken within that land were to be given to the King - or suffer a severe penalty! (Know what happens these days if you don't file your Tax Forms to the IRS?) Basically, all he did was to merely obey the Law of the Land where he was living -- Later on, God informed him to GET OUT OF THERE...
Consider also that you never EVER see another account of Abram giving another tithe! But TWI would have you believe that he did it faithfully "every paycheck", and that you should act like he did as an example.
Even later on when the LAW was in effect, the tithe was not received "every week", but rather either at harvest time (for crops) or when cattle, sheep, etc gave birth. And, as mentioned before, things other than the "required tithe" -- of FOOD!) were by "freewill offerings" at Festivals and Feasts during the year.
So just who do the "leaders" at TWI think they are to be authorized by God to receive tithes from ALL the people -- Levitical Priests during this Age of Grace?!! And why receive AT LEAST A TENTH (bare minimum) of EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EACH WEEK? And where is their STOREHOUSE for the grain and meat they are supposed to be receiving? There is no such thing there. And just how is this "abundant sharing" treated? Is it shared among EVERYONE so as to exist an EQUALITY among the ENTIRE MINISTRY?
For the most part, unless you wear a Corps Ring, YOU DON'T EVER SEE ANY OF IT. You are taught to understand that you have to suffer consequences for your unbelief -- and "God help you" if you do not continue to faithfully tithe and abundantly share even during your own desperate times, for that is when you should do it ALL THE MORE or suffer even worse -- BULL! And if you do wear one of those rings, you only receive just enough that you may be the SLAVE they taught you to be FOR THEM in Training. The "Lions Share" goes to the Trustees and the Reverends on "the Field"!
Please forgive the lack of proper documentation in this post...I trust you all can read the scriptures for yourselves. Providing that information would have made this rather lengthy response even longer.
And please forgive any slight errors in "my version" of this subject of tithing. I know it is not "perfect". But I do welcome your critique and comments -- especially the "favorable ones" -- Ha! Ha!
I wonder if the OT priests used any of the tithe for fancy motorcycles, classic cars, private jets or motor coaches.
Now, that's funny Waysider!
I rather suppose it was used TO LIVE ON! (and not "high on the hog" -- because hogs "split the hoof" and were forbidden -- LOL!)
I also doubt it was used to support the need for "Biblical Research and Teaching" either, because (for one) the stuff was just being written and recorded at the time -- and concerning "teaching", what does it really cost to run your mouth like they do?
Spec
PS: Now concerning fancy motorcycles, I do seem to remember reading about many "triumphs" though...(groan!)
Teaching a "law" of tithing is easy (besides being self-serving in TWI's case). A law is duty, command, with clear tests and penalty or reward.
What Jesus, John the baptizer and the NT teach is an attitude of generosity... if you have 2 coats, give one away (that makes 15% sound cheap), give to him who asks you, invite to dinner those who can't pay you back or invite you back, give beyond your ability, etc. Impossible to even imagine much less do unless you have an inner attitude of love and generosity.
Cultivating that kind of true love and giving spirit is much more illusive than law of 10 or 15%.
I think it starts with absorbing how generous God is with us. And letting the Holy Spirit form in you the fruit of love and goodness. It's a work of God. "God is at work within you both to will and to do His good pleasure."
Teaching a "law" of tithing is easy (besides being self-serving in TWI's case). A law is duty, command, with clear tests and penalty or reward.
What Jesus, John the baptizer and the NT teach is an attitude of generosity... if you have 2 coats, give one away (that makes 15% sound cheap), give to him who asks you, invite to dinner those who can't pay you back or invite you back, give beyond your ability, etc. Impossible to even imagine much less do unless you have an inner attitude of love and generosity.
Cultivating that kind of true love and giving spirit is much more illusive than law of 10 or 15%.
I think it starts with absorbing how generous God is with us. And letting the Holy Spirit form in you the fruit of love and goodness. It's a work of God. "God is at work within you both to will and to do His good pleasure."
johnj,
Your approach here has some real merit. Basically much of the color of TWI teaching is law based, while professing to be among the only that truly understand "the grace administration". Going back to the law while made free from it turns an individual into a Pharisee. Galatians does speak much to the "bewitching" that goes on in bringing people under a false legalistic based doctrine.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees for looking down at the widow giving a mite, while they used the "corbin" concept to keep from even caring for their own parents.
TWI leadership mandates to their leadership teaching these principles on tithing and abundant sharing quarterly, including their debt policies and scriptures (the no mortgage policy). The majority of TWI followers are unable to own property unless they completely refuse this principle and buy a home anyway rebelling against the teachings, which has been becoming more common. Then they cannot be fellowship coordinators or attend the Advanced Class or the Advanced Class Specials which they have moved to bi-annually in Ohio at their HQ. TWI has a net worth of $55M, with roughly half of that in short term investment capital, which earns roughly $200K per year. They spend very little of that on the people, doing no country-wide events that are not debt restricted, and they keep expenses low - 75% of income goes to HQ, 25% stays in the states, and the majority of the 25% goes to pay salaries of the 1 or 2 couples working for TWI in the multi-state region. The corporate culture is to spend as little as possible to put on events, with many using free rooms.
If you look at the fruit of the result of these teachings, you certainly don't see the prosperity promised, except for some of the higher executive positions in Ohio that are paying cash for homes there, own sailboats and the like. The average follower is kept poor and enslaved by these teachings, while the Pharisee class is enriched.
Excellent post Spectrum49!
I wonder if the OT priests used any of the tithe for fancy motorcycles, classic cars, private jets or motor coaches.
The motor coaches certainly turned in to traveling sexual abuse centers, made so by both the first and second "men of God" of TWI. No wonder he died of cancer. He turned into a cancer.
I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source. I believe CSBP supports that idea. Also, VPW said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", so logically there is lots of truth elsewhere since he got lots of his stuff from outside TWI. Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.
To be 100% accurate what was taught is "the Bible is our ONLY rule of faith and practice". This was taught in many classes and forums. And outside of the "spritual 40 club" early on in the ministry, the practice of bringing in outside speakers and teachers certainly did not continue throughout the 70's when the organization was at its peak membership. 80's through current practices there have been "recommended reading lists" but no outside speakers or teachers. So the Way leadership set themselves up as the only source of teaching scriptures, and combined with the above public statement, it is splitting hairs to say they don't teach they are the only source for where followers obtain truth. There are a few levels of indirection, but the follower is led to that exact thing.
Where this is completely seperatist compared to mainstream Christianity is that other Christian writers are not even considered. A home fellowship would never have the freedom to work through a Joel Olsteen or Joyce Meyer book, or even a specific topic workbook from mainstream Christian sources. There are weekly teaching topics focused on Way publications set by HQ leadership.
Also taught was Uncle Harry's sharing on tithing and abundant sharing that the more he matured in the Christian walk the more he just gave all his money to The Way International, and considered other organizations as "second-rate causes". So by implication, "maturity" is held in equality to eliminating giving to other charitable organizations and giving solely to TWI. This viewpoint ha's been taught in TWI throughout the 70's to present.
And outside of the "spritual 40 club" early on in the ministry, the practice of bringing in outside speakers and teachers certainly did not continue throughout the 70's when the organization was at its peak membership
You might wanna check some tape logs for the 70s before you stand by that statement.
Since you apparently have access to a tape log, why not simply list these speakers?
Isn't it you who is so insistent on documentation?
I did not make the claim why should I do the work for someone else? I have the documentation I've done the homework even though of course I was not there . Amazing the things one can know all the way in Kansas.
I did not make the claim why should I do the work for someone else? I have the documentation I've done the homework even though of course I was not there . Amazing the things one can know all the way in Kansas.
There's really no need for sarcasm.
You implied (made a claim by virtue of refutation) that documentation exists showing The Way bringing in outside speakers.
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geisha779
When I was a WOW I was sent to the limb city. The limb leader had a problem with his neighbor--the neighbor's lawn died and everyone elses was green. The limb leader said it was because the guy was a problem--God killed the other guys lawn for opposing the limb leader.
What a crock.
Didn't this whole thing start because VP looked around and saw little of the "abundant life" in his congregation?
Seems to me he ran around finding theology that supported his idea of what the abundant life meant.
What if he was wrong? What? Ooops sorry?
Maybe he just didn't get it--he obviously didn't like what most other Christian denominations taught and believed.
The whole thing seems to have built on what VP thought the bible meant by certain terms--abundance-power-grace/sin-the Holy Spirit--JCING--believing.
IMHO it was his own personal theology--his quest for whatever. . . little to do with Christianity--hard to have when Jesus is absent.
VP didn't LIKE Christianity--the Church or Holiness!!! What made us think he alone figured it all out?? Oh yeah, I remember--snow on the gas pumps.
Big of him to share it with us and leave a wake of destruction along the way. I should have known when I heard abortion was A-okay because of "Breath Life".
Itching ears
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Oakspear
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RumRunner
I second the motion! All in favor say aye.
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doojable
As long as he sends enough for more than the two drink limit...
Aye!
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johnj
TWI teaches that the Old Testament was addressed to Jews of the Law administration, not to born again believers of the Grace administration. This is a problem for TWI, because tithing is never once mentioned in the Church Epistles. The few references to tithing in the NT are in Matthew, Luke and Hebrews, and refer to OT practices, never to principles believers should follow. In fact, tithing is only criticized, not honored, in Matthew and Luke because the tithers were not living a life of love, nor following Jesus Christ.
WAP is stuck with devaluing the OT while quoting only it to teach tithing. The reason tithing is not taught in the New Testament is because tithing is not a law or requirement to be followed by born again believers in order to obtain financial prosperity or for any other reason. If this was an essential principle for believers, the NT would certainly say this repeatedly, but it does not
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oldiesman
I agree.
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Raf
Reviewing this thread and I wanted to check something out, so I looked for my copy of Christians Should Be Prosperous and...
danged! Can't find it. Threw it out!
FREEDOM!!!!
Gotta love it.
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RumRunner
Didn't you always wonder about that little pamphlet? Here you have some topic that was elevated to a station second only to being "born again." It was preached about plenty, yelled, screamed and threatened about plenty...as I recall the Cro-Magnon from Okie used to say something like, If you don't give at least ten percent god won't have time to spit on you. But the basic "research" (used loosely) was a small pamphlet. A little thing that basically quoted a lot of OT telling us to give so much material wealth to TWI (in lieu of god's actuial presence - uhhh even THAT is a contradiction - if god is really omnipresent).
One little pamphlet which if you didn't understand and/or follow god won't even spit on you. Seems like if it was THAT important more work would have been published - that is if it COULD be published based on HONEST research.
I am not against charitable giving of any sort - just can't buy off on a little pamphlet being the doctrinal cornerstone of whether or not god spits on you. Besides - if I give my tithe or ABS WHY WOULD I WANT GOD TO SPIT ON ME ANYWAY?
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Ham
well, because.. noooo, I won't go there, I won't..
just ask what'shername..
noooooooo..
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RumRunner
Come on!!! Go there - inquiring and cynical minds want to know
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frank123lol
Yeah,our imaginations run wild.
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doojable
I bet it involves.. ummmm... the opportunity to get cleaned... you know... the way a cat cleans a... ummm...
"kitty"
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johnj
TWI makes a careful distinction between the words tithing and abundant sharing because they are different actions (10 percent vs. more than 10 percent, with different results (material vs. spiritual blessings).The problem is, the word "tithe" never appears in the Church epistles, and there is no Greek word for "abundant sharing." Not to worry. TWI inserts the word "abundant sharing" and "tithing" into verses in which they do not exist.:
"II Corinthians 8:4:... that we would receive the gift [abundant sharing]..."
"1 Corinthians 16:1-3:... then I will send to bring your liberality [gift- abundant sharing] unto Jerusalem..."
"Galatians 6:6:... Let him that is taught in the word communicate [share fully]..."
"Ephesians 4:28: ...that [purpose] he [that believer who is renewing his mind] may have [God wants our need met] to give [tithing is minimum] to him that needeth."
Note: the words in square [parentheses] are added by TWI.
The Greek word for "gift" or "liberality" in II Cor. 8:4 and I Cor 16:3 is charis, a very common word for grace, favor or gift which is used over 150 times in the NT. It is most often used of God's grace in Jesus Christ and is very seldom used of financial gifts. WAP ignores the actual Greek usage and implies that it means explicitly giving more than 10 percent of income, not any other kind of giving (such as giving less than 10 percent).
WAP inserts words including "tithing" and "abundant sharing" into verses in which they do not exist, thereby adding Way leaders' ideas into Scripture in an attempt to force Scripture to say what it does not. The Way Int's word means what it says and says what it means.
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spectrum49
HI ALL!
I'm not completely sure this comment is what was sought for in this thread, but for those interested I offer the following concerning the "tithe":
As I understand it, the tithe in the written law was required (among the tribes of ISRAEL) only by Farmers and those who raised Livestock. It was to be one-tenth from eleven of the twelve tribes, and was given to those in the tribe of Levi (the ministers) who were to take care of the temple, etc. being excluded from "secular work".
Within Levi, were another group called the Priests. They served IN the temple; the others in Levi served the temple itself. Another requirement was for the "collectors" in Levi to separate out ten-percent of the total tithe (one one-hundreth, in other words) and give that directly to the priests, so they may EAT. (By the way, this portion was to be the BEST OF THE BEST, of crops and animals.)
Other uses for the animals for the Priests within Levi were for sacrifice, including all the details concerning what to do with the the blood, etc, according to the law.
The ministers in Levi were to take care of the building, adorning and maintaining of the temple itself. They also managed what was left of the tithe -- the remaining nine-tenths which were not given to the Priests. This provided food for them also. What was left over remained in the "Storehouse" and was to be used as the rest of the tribes of Israel had NEED. In times of famine or trouble, it was measured back to them, so that Israel as a whole did not have to suffer.
As for the rest of Israel who had professions other than farming or raising livestock, it was available at certain times throughout the year (like during the various Feasts and Festivals) to contribute to Levi "freewill offerings". These could be anything such as cloth, precious metals, pottery, etc. which was used to adorn the temple, and also to provide a "base" for distribution among all Israelites when NEEDS arose.
NOW -- isn't it curious that TWI "required" everyone to give the tithe, no matter what they did for a living? And just how much of that ever went back to the people when a need arose among them? If you suffered loss, it was because you did not "properly operate the principles of believing", etc. and you were left to suffer for your actions, or lack thereof because you "deserved it". (There were however, perhaps some isolated instances where TWI did step in to help in a dire situation, but it was not their "usual practice", as it was among Israel.)
Another thing: Mal 3:10 says to "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there be meat (does it say MONEY?) in mine house..." Remember, the reason for it in the first place was so that the tribe of Levi COULD EAT! -- So why not merely provide TWI with FOOD itself instead of money? And if you wanted to give money or other things of value, that was up to you. And there was no requirement UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES as to any amount to be given by FREEWILL OFFERINGS (other than meat and grain)!
And besides all that, we all have been taught that we are NOT under "The Law", so why the requirement at all? The word "tithe" does not even appear in any of the Epistles written to us, so why does TWI try to apply it to ALL THE FOLLOWERS?...
As their prime example they use Abraham, who "gave tithes to Melchisedec". They say that since our believing should be based upon Abraham (see Romans) and not the law, then we should do as he did EVEN BEFORE the LAW was written for Israel in tablets of stone.
So just what did Abraham (then Abram) do? And just who was this "Melchisedec, the King of Salem"? As the story goes, Abram's nephew Lot and his family, friends and possessions were take captive in Sodom where he lived. Abram became minded to go to battle, which he did, sucessfully rescuing them all.
Upon returning from the battle, the record states that Abram gave "tithes of all" to the King of Salem (Melchisedec). (And remember now, this all took place before the "written law".) In studying the history of this region (from secular books) I found there was a requirement where Abram lived that one-tenth of any spoils taken within that land were to be given to the King - or suffer a severe penalty! (Know what happens these days if you don't file your Tax Forms to the IRS?) Basically, all he did was to merely obey the Law of the Land where he was living -- Later on, God informed him to GET OUT OF THERE...
Consider also that you never EVER see another account of Abram giving another tithe! But TWI would have you believe that he did it faithfully "every paycheck", and that you should act like he did as an example.
Even later on when the LAW was in effect, the tithe was not received "every week", but rather either at harvest time (for crops) or when cattle, sheep, etc gave birth. And, as mentioned before, things other than the "required tithe" -- of FOOD!) were by "freewill offerings" at Festivals and Feasts during the year.
So just who do the "leaders" at TWI think they are to be authorized by God to receive tithes from ALL the people -- Levitical Priests during this Age of Grace?!! And why receive AT LEAST A TENTH (bare minimum) of EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EACH WEEK? And where is their STOREHOUSE for the grain and meat they are supposed to be receiving? There is no such thing there. And just how is this "abundant sharing" treated? Is it shared among EVERYONE so as to exist an EQUALITY among the ENTIRE MINISTRY?
For the most part, unless you wear a Corps Ring, YOU DON'T EVER SEE ANY OF IT. You are taught to understand that you have to suffer consequences for your unbelief -- and "God help you" if you do not continue to faithfully tithe and abundantly share even during your own desperate times, for that is when you should do it ALL THE MORE or suffer even worse -- BULL! And if you do wear one of those rings, you only receive just enough that you may be the SLAVE they taught you to be FOR THEM in Training. The "Lions Share" goes to the Trustees and the Reverends on "the Field"!
Please forgive the lack of proper documentation in this post...I trust you all can read the scriptures for yourselves. Providing that information would have made this rather lengthy response even longer.
And please forgive any slight errors in "my version" of this subject of tithing. I know it is not "perfect". But I do welcome your critique and comments -- especially the "favorable ones" -- Ha! Ha!
Love,
"Spectrum49"
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waysider
Excellent post Spectrum49!
I wonder if the OT priests used any of the tithe for fancy motorcycles, classic cars, private jets or motor coaches.
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spectrum49
Now, that's funny Waysider!
I rather suppose it was used TO LIVE ON! (and not "high on the hog" -- because hogs "split the hoof" and were forbidden -- LOL!)
I also doubt it was used to support the need for "Biblical Research and Teaching" either, because (for one) the stuff was just being written and recorded at the time -- and concerning "teaching", what does it really cost to run your mouth like they do?
Spec
PS: Now concerning fancy motorcycles, I do seem to remember reading about many "triumphs" though...(groan!)
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chockfull
It's better to have your A$$ in a pit than pits on your....
Oh, nevermind.
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johnj
Teaching a "law" of tithing is easy (besides being self-serving in TWI's case). A law is duty, command, with clear tests and penalty or reward.
What Jesus, John the baptizer and the NT teach is an attitude of generosity... if you have 2 coats, give one away (that makes 15% sound cheap), give to him who asks you, invite to dinner those who can't pay you back or invite you back, give beyond your ability, etc. Impossible to even imagine much less do unless you have an inner attitude of love and generosity.
Cultivating that kind of true love and giving spirit is much more illusive than law of 10 or 15%.
I think it starts with absorbing how generous God is with us. And letting the Holy Spirit form in you the fruit of love and goodness. It's a work of God. "God is at work within you both to will and to do His good pleasure."
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chockfull
johnj,
Your approach here has some real merit. Basically much of the color of TWI teaching is law based, while professing to be among the only that truly understand "the grace administration". Going back to the law while made free from it turns an individual into a Pharisee. Galatians does speak much to the "bewitching" that goes on in bringing people under a false legalistic based doctrine.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees for looking down at the widow giving a mite, while they used the "corbin" concept to keep from even caring for their own parents.
TWI leadership mandates to their leadership teaching these principles on tithing and abundant sharing quarterly, including their debt policies and scriptures (the no mortgage policy). The majority of TWI followers are unable to own property unless they completely refuse this principle and buy a home anyway rebelling against the teachings, which has been becoming more common. Then they cannot be fellowship coordinators or attend the Advanced Class or the Advanced Class Specials which they have moved to bi-annually in Ohio at their HQ. TWI has a net worth of $55M, with roughly half of that in short term investment capital, which earns roughly $200K per year. They spend very little of that on the people, doing no country-wide events that are not debt restricted, and they keep expenses low - 75% of income goes to HQ, 25% stays in the states, and the majority of the 25% goes to pay salaries of the 1 or 2 couples working for TWI in the multi-state region. The corporate culture is to spend as little as possible to put on events, with many using free rooms.
If you look at the fruit of the result of these teachings, you certainly don't see the prosperity promised, except for some of the higher executive positions in Ohio that are paying cash for homes there, own sailboats and the like. The average follower is kept poor and enslaved by these teachings, while the Pharisee class is enriched.
The motor coaches certainly turned in to traveling sexual abuse centers, made so by both the first and second "men of God" of TWI. No wonder he died of cancer. He turned into a cancer.
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chockfull
To be 100% accurate what was taught is "the Bible is our ONLY rule of faith and practice". This was taught in many classes and forums. And outside of the "spritual 40 club" early on in the ministry, the practice of bringing in outside speakers and teachers certainly did not continue throughout the 70's when the organization was at its peak membership. 80's through current practices there have been "recommended reading lists" but no outside speakers or teachers. So the Way leadership set themselves up as the only source of teaching scriptures, and combined with the above public statement, it is splitting hairs to say they don't teach they are the only source for where followers obtain truth. There are a few levels of indirection, but the follower is led to that exact thing.
Where this is completely seperatist compared to mainstream Christianity is that other Christian writers are not even considered. A home fellowship would never have the freedom to work through a Joel Olsteen or Joyce Meyer book, or even a specific topic workbook from mainstream Christian sources. There are weekly teaching topics focused on Way publications set by HQ leadership.
Also taught was Uncle Harry's sharing on tithing and abundant sharing that the more he matured in the Christian walk the more he just gave all his money to The Way International, and considered other organizations as "second-rate causes". So by implication, "maturity" is held in equality to eliminating giving to other charitable organizations and giving solely to TWI. This viewpoint ha's been taught in TWI throughout the 70's to present.
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WhiteDove
You might wanna check some tape logs for the 70s before you stand by that statement.
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waysider
Haven't we been down this road before?
Since you apparently have access to a tape log, why not simply list these speakers?
Isn't it you who is so insistent on documentation?
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WhiteDove
I did not make the claim why should I do the work for someone else? I have the documentation I've done the homework even though of course I was not there . Amazing the things one can know all the way in Kansas.
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waysider
There's really no need for sarcasm.
You implied (made a claim by virtue of refutation) that documentation exists showing The Way bringing in outside speakers.
Can you provide that documentation or not?
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