It's a crying shame in a way. The victser's decendents, at least those who I have met, who have been living in the "real world" for a while.. actually working for a living, not having any recognized status of being offspring of a lecherous, charismatic preacher- they can actually be normal, nice, loving people..
but put them in front of a microphone with the power of summary judgement over fawning followers.. it's a nightmare. Of course there are those who walked away from the insanity.
Maybe it's not just the family, maybe it's human nature..
I guess months is even too much today.. already have a bachellor's? Here one place one can get a Master's and PHD in only God knows what for about $1100.00. If you order both at the same time, you get a discounted price of $769.00.
That's about what I'm putting out for a four credit class..
then he can claim in a few years, "ya know, my critics say I got my degree at a degree mill. Well, ya know.. it was a highly unusual, advanced quick learning format.. sponsored by EXPERTS.."
"Dr" wierwille...as phoney a title as anything I've ever seen...the guy was a drunken womanizer who lived in the eyes of other people. He was as much a "Dr." as Moe howard was a brain surgeon...get real.
Its a predestined kinda thing,The certain select,cream of the crop,
genetics,,Hitler youth more like it,maybe they will have to eat some humble pie.
Say want a piece of it,nothanks it dont agree with me.
Oh thats right,this is america,get a nonprofit status,fleece the hell out of everyone,remember there is some old geezers here(mississip) this is their retirement plan.
Yes I too know of the family,one is still working local,god bless him,at least it is for a "real company".
As the rest of us know(rules say I cannot include everyone)So I know it is hell to make a living,there is a price
to pay,Yeah food, mortgage,car payments,braces medical bills.yeah,The youngsters says,I do not have time for this,I gotta teach the verd,teach the verd victor,teach the verd.The org will take care of my needs.
The rest of the followers?Well god clothes the lillies of the field,the birds do not worry.Take no thought....
Why the hell should I care?Well my kids know better,Ole dad did not mince words when it comes to the religion buizz.Once bitten,twice shy,To the namesake..We aint your adversary,the "he"or enity dont need us.
"he" enity,is far too slick for that.Look how it brought down gramps ministry,HIS OWN LUSTS.Drunk with power.
Lcm,was already at the helm of a ministry of self destruction.
"Hurry, hurry hurry. Improve your education, job qualifications and general intellect. For a limited time, these fine certificates are personally signed by the Great Squirrel. Be among the first.. imagine the PRESTIGE and swelling self-importance, as you proudly show your *achievement* to friends, family, and employer.. hurry, hurry, hurry.."
You have read my previous posts on other threads about being a child of sexual abuse and how I feel about religion.
I am not moved by any of vp's early religious associations. It is all religion. Spew, puke, vomit. The pot calling the kettle black.
I am very well aquainted with a counselor/therapist who helps folks with this. Funny thing, she was literally born and raised in twi. I am closer to her mother (because we live in the same town) who was there from the beginning of twi.
I post this with absolute love, caring and no judgement.
I am very concerned about all the raging anger and hurt I read here. There are more dedicated folks than you may realize to help in the healing.
WDJD.....What did Jesus do? Now talk about someone hurt, abused.....
Funny thing about rape, about forced servitude, physical abuse, sexual abuse, our babies hurt, forced abortion, being alienated from family and friends, broken hearts, broken families, tens of thousands of lives destroyed. It tends to breed a bit of raging anger in those whom this great evil was perpetrated upon.
These people, if they did not do this to us directly, did it to a beloved sister or brother. They did it in GOD`S name. If that doesn`t generate anger and disgust then I don`t know what in the world is wrong with you.
As far as what would Jesus do? How about looking ar what HE said and did to the money changers and pharacees who hurt God`s people?? He freakin chased them around with whips and turned over tables...he called the pharacees some of the vilest names of the time....He didn`t sit by and allow people to steal in God`s name THAT`S for sure.
This Bull sheet about Jesus not wanting us to be angry over the spiritual/physical/mental
rape of so many, over the leading of tens of thousands into darkness..over the pain and shattered lives of so many innocent men women and children, ALL facilitated by scripture, IN God`s name or fail to see it as an absolute abomination, to me is unfathomable. Further morem to do it and act like it is the spiritualy healthy thing makes no sense.
Frankly I am at a loss as to why anyone isn`t deeply offended that some punk is trying to recreate the same damned broken system that allowed the rampant abuse to flourish in the first place.
Be concerned over my raging anger if you must Kimberly, but quite frankly your absence of understanding surrounding t he shattered lives, and abuse perpetrated in God`s name by ministers claiming to work for God, is to me baffeling and unnatural, like you don`t really comprehend the depths of the evil wrought, the impact on the survivors...it`s like something switched off inside...shrug.
Whatever, your inapropriate invocation of what Jesus would do in the case of spiritual theft, abuse and manipulation by spiritual leaders in God`s name reminds me forcefully of the way scriptures in twi were brandished as a weapon to steal, to enforce compliance, and permit atrocities.
To NOT shout from the roof tops what we know about the foundations of this group are, what the hidden dangers of following these new leaders, of what damage these doctrines present, is as far as I am concerned, unpardonable :(
You may not understand my anger, you may not be comfortable with me expressing it, but that in no way makes it wrong or inapropriate or lacking in spirituality under these circumstances.
I am very concerned about all the raging anger and hurt I read here. There are more dedicated folks than you may realize to help in the healing.
WDJD.....What did Jesus do? Now talk about someone hurt, abused.....
I wouldn't call it raging anger. Some of us have learned how to "channel" it in constructive ways.
I really think it's a fallacy that people can be so deeply wounded and miraculously "healed" by the wave of a religious quote like, what would Jesus do.. or even analysis.. they might help one understand the experience, and how to cope..
like it or not, we are all "flawed".
I think if people are bound to the extent they can't get angry, or express rage, at least in an appropriate manner, it's not good..
Isn't.. displaying dissapointment, anger, "concern", and even masked rage about people supposedly expressing anger and rage.. the same thing?
I really don't think you understand what you think you understand here..
WWJD? What I think.. he'd sit down, be QUIET.. (I'm being polite here), LISTEN for a LONG TIME, and bear a few burdens..
I'd say most of us here, have been abused by pharisees for YEARS- some even decades.
Call it whatever you want, I call it "dialogue". But maybe the "other guy" just happens to have a lot more to say..
stifle people's genuine emotions and valid reactions with a few religious quotes and references to "those who can heal" is the surest way to close it..
Hhhhmmm, how did He handle stuff with Peter after He knew that Peter had denied Him? The Lord heard Peter deny Him and then their eyes met. Talk about feeling you are all alone in the world. What did the soldiers do to the Lord? They didn't tiptoe Him through the tulips. I think just a little itty bitty bit of abuse took place at their hands. What did He do?
Therefore I stand by what I said. What did He do? Who and where was His healing? We think that we have been through anything that He didn't? Therefore.....what did He do to come out on top?
Somes of ya read into my post what was not there. It is evident because you did not read what WAS there. My post was about healing. Surely to God you want that.
Now, I am going to whirl some whips.....I know about growing up with spiritual, sexual abuse, baby. My step dad was a P^$C)*^$L preacher. Been there had that happen to me. That is why I SAID in my post that I would never make light of anyone's abuse. Try being in the third grade and your step-dad, the holy preacher man, attempting to have sex with you. That was only the beginning.
I lived it for a long time. I left home the end of 11th grade. The sexual abuse ended after 8th grade. But he stepped up the physical abuse which I endured even before 3rd grade. Beatings, beatings, beatings...... my brother is dead because of his physical abuse.
So, before you yap your keyboard to me about not understanding or being empathetic, or loving or caring.....
What is irksome to me is even with a degree mill title, we all called him Doctor. I don't even call my primary Care --"Doctor", I call him Ray.
I know many people with Ph.D's and most of them don't use Doctor at all. A few in their professional life, but most don't run around wanting to be called the "Doctor".
It was a big ego stroke. I think those "Critics" got to him more than we realize.
Where did VP get his undergrad degree? It is rare that people will get their graduate degree at the same institution as their undergrad degree, but why didn't he just stay at Princeton Theological for the ph.D? Just curious.
As for people here and what they post. . . . isn't this a forum about TWI? What seems like "anger" to some can also be seen as healthy dialogue by others.
Who TWI are and what they do--shouldbe exposed. How can you expose them without it rousing a certain degree of anger? ESPECIALLY if you LIVED some of the horror and wasted years of your life involved, and have a conscience.
Not everyone still thinks they learned the truth in TWI.
Many are coming to the realization that we were duped. That God didn't give VP all this special knowledge. That we were NOT the special elite--but, that can be a slow and often painful process. But ya know what? It is important. It really is important. It helps us heal.
Putting it all together, by bouncing it off each other, is such a human way of dealing with ---what was a huge part of our lives. Important to examine for a healthy life--I think. This is a good way to do it--
Besides, these posts are just that--small snippets of a discussion--I am sure we all function just fine IRL.
Jesus never forgave the Pharisees--he told them their end--Paul also was bold in proclaiming the end of false teachers. So are we. Expose them for who and what they are. . . . warn others. . . . keep ourselves safe. . .and relate to the FEW people in this world who can truly understand what we went through.
There are not THAT many of us for goodness sakes.
I watch these arguments and think to myself. . . . it always comes down to how much you still adhere to "Way Dcotrine". WWJD???. . . .the Jesus I know would have plenty to say about the abuse. . . . none of it pretty. That was the stuff He swiftly condemned!
Kim, I am sorry that your step-Dad abused you and am glad that you are healing from this event. However, you did not say if he was arrested for child molestation, put on trial, and jailed. If that is too personal, please forgive me.
Hhhhmmm, how did He handle stuff with Peter after He knew that Peter had denied Him? The Lord heard Peter deny Him and then their eyes met. Talk about feeling you are all alone in the world. What did the soldiers do to the Lord? They didn't tiptoe Him through the tulips. I think just a little itty bitty bit of abuse took place at their hands. What did He do?
Therefore I stand by what I said. What did He do? Who and where was His healing? We think that we have been through anything that He didn't? Therefore.....what did He do to come out on top?
Somes of ya read into my post what was not there. It is evident because you did not read what WAS there. My post was about healing. Surely to God you want that.
Now, I am going to whirl some whips.....I know about growing up with spiritual, sexual abuse, baby. My step dad was a P^$C)*^$L preacher. Been there had that happen to me. That is why I SAID in my post that I would never make light of anyone's abuse. Try being in the third grade and your step-dad, the holy preacher man, attempting to have sex with you. That was only the beginning.
I lived it for a long time. I left home the end of 11th grade. The sexual abuse ended after 8th grade. But he stepped up the physical abuse which I endured even before 3rd grade. Beatings, beatings, beatings...... my brother is dead because of his physical abuse.
So, before you yap your keyboard to me about not understanding or being empathetic, or loving or caring.....
There is healing, loved ones.
Hi Kimberly,
Personally, I still think that you are very kind!
I'm really sorry for the things that you went through. They certainly seem to be on par with the very worst of the abuse that folks here suffered at the hands of TWI ministers.
Speaking for myself alone, the whole issue of this thread, the credibilty of Wierwille's credentials is as I said before, the least of my concerns. But as much of this new info on TWI that I've heard here at the greasespot has helped me make sense of TWI and the splinter group that I used to belong to, I often feel fairly intense emotions.
I'm quite certain that having this place to share (or vent if you prefer) them has helped me cope with the events of my life considerably better than most of the last four years of my life when I didn't have anybody to talk through these things that had much to offer in terms of useful insight.
Biblically speaking, the Lord spoke very strongly against causing his folks to stumble and or be offended. I think he reffered to it being better to have a big stone tied to them and being thrown in the lake than to face the consequences of causing the children to stumble. After hearing of your stepdad I'm certain that he fits this scripture as well as Wierwille. Except that I'm guessing that Wierwille has adversly affected many, many more people than your abuser did.
For me, I think a much better question than "What Would Jesus Do" is WHAT WILL JESUS DO!!! (to these bastards that is!) I talk about this because considering these things are a comfort to me.
So, before you yap your keyboard to me about not understanding or being empathetic, or loving or caring.....
There is healing, loved ones.
Well FIRST off, to refer to my thoughts, or anyone else here as *yapping at our key boards* is I believe, completely lacking in respect and courtesy. A very convenient way to totally dismiss any understanding that God MIGHT have wrought in others hearts and lives to this point. A real screw you (like THATS real Jesus like) to those whom he has brought so very very far since leaving the spiritual corruption, moral bankruptcy, and darkness of association with twi and it`s leaders.
To dismiss aothers point of view as simple *yapping* because you personally do not wish to consider that portion of Jesus` life or how he delt with the spiritual leaders whom were abusing and stealing in his name verses a fellow who simply messed up out of fear, is I believe to limit yourself in understanding of who he was, what his instructions were, and what our responsibilities are as Christians are today.
You do as you please, but I think that to try to force someone to take the actions that you yourself deem as correct by presenting them as what Jesus would do hypothetically is treading in dangerous territory.
Secondly, as a survivor of horrific abuse, I think that how you deal with what is necessary for personal peace and healing can be in a different catagory than what Jesus expects of us in the case of religious exploitation and abuse of spiritual leaders in the name of God.
I think that we are talking about apples and oranges when we discuss the way Jesus delt with Peter and the way he delt with the pharacees and money changers.
These people whom perpetuate the corrupt doctrines of twi, are attempting to once again ensnare people in God`s name. I think Jesus` conduct at the temple with the money changers and the pharacees makes it QUITE clear. WWJD??? Now that you mention it, I think it might be a lot of fun to decend on a sts at the auditorium brandishing a whip, turning flipping tables..... chase everyone out of the building yelling the most vile names that I can think of...Yeah that Jesus...what a GUY!! Sigh too darned bad that is considered illegal in todays world :)
These guys use their fake doctorates and false titles to give them a credibility and sense of character and integrety that they have never ever earned.
There is a reason that a real doctorate takes years and years of hard work. It is all part of the character and stamina developed along the way.
These guys never had the morals, the stamina, the character, not to mention being of the spirit to be a genuine minister for God. They had to buy their titles in order to decieve folks.
I have never heard anyone outside of der vey who had a legitimate doctorate even refer to themselves as "doctor".
Perhaps some have..
but the vicster puts those words in the dialog in the mouths of those he supposedly respected.. like Karl Barth. "well, *Dr* wierwille, if what you see is true.."
I'll bet he called him "vic".. in real life.
These con artists seem to enjoy stroking themselves with that title..
My brother-in-law has a PhD in Engineering. (He is a private consultant.) In the 25+ years I have known him, I have never heard anyone call him "Doctor" nor have I ever heard him refer to himself in this manner.
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Ham
It's a crying shame in a way. The victser's decendents, at least those who I have met, who have been living in the "real world" for a while.. actually working for a living, not having any recognized status of being offspring of a lecherous, charismatic preacher- they can actually be normal, nice, loving people..
but put them in front of a microphone with the power of summary judgement over fawning followers.. it's a nightmare. Of course there are those who walked away from the insanity.
Maybe it's not just the family, maybe it's human nature..
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Ham
What's ironic.. this is from one of the links at the bottom of this page..
http://www.degree.net
I think the young vicster should consider it.. really. Get a phd in just a few short months, instead of years of hard, dedicated effort..
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Ham
I guess months is even too much today.. already have a bachellor's? Here one place one can get a Master's and PHD in only God knows what for about $1100.00. If you order both at the same time, you get a discounted price of $769.00.
http://www.affordabledegrees.com/ADA/fee.asp
That's about what I'm putting out for a four credit class..
then he can claim in a few years, "ya know, my critics say I got my degree at a degree mill. Well, ya know.. it was a highly unusual, advanced quick learning format.. sponsored by EXPERTS.."
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GrouchoMarxJr
"Dr" wierwille...as phoney a title as anything I've ever seen...the guy was a drunken womanizer who lived in the eyes of other people. He was as much a "Dr." as Moe howard was a brain surgeon...get real.
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frank123lol
Its a predestined kinda thing,The certain select,cream of the crop,
genetics,,Hitler youth more like it,maybe they will have to eat some humble pie.
Say want a piece of it,nothanks it dont agree with me.
Oh thats right,this is america,get a nonprofit status,fleece the hell out of everyone,remember there is some old geezers here(mississip) this is their retirement plan.
Yes I too know of the family,one is still working local,god bless him,at least it is for a "real company".
As the rest of us know(rules say I cannot include everyone)So I know it is hell to make a living,there is a price
to pay,Yeah food, mortgage,car payments,braces medical bills.yeah,The youngsters says,I do not have time for this,I gotta teach the verd,teach the verd victor,teach the verd.The org will take care of my needs.
The rest of the followers?Well god clothes the lillies of the field,the birds do not worry.Take no thought....
Why the hell should I care?Well my kids know better,Ole dad did not mince words when it comes to the religion buizz.Once bitten,twice shy,To the namesake..We aint your adversary,the "he"or enity dont need us.
"he" enity,is far too slick for that.Look how it brought down gramps ministry,HIS OWN LUSTS.Drunk with power.
Lcm,was already at the helm of a ministry of self destruction.
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Ham
Hey, I could sell a few of these things. I might even consider licensing Paw for the right percentage toward the running of Greasespot..
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Ham
Hey, it's a bargain. Fifty bucks.. and it's probably worth more than an advanced class or corps grad diploma..
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Ham
*steps up to microphone*
"Hurry, hurry hurry. Improve your education, job qualifications and general intellect. For a limited time, these fine certificates are personally signed by the Great Squirrel. Be among the first.. imagine the PRESTIGE and swelling self-importance, as you proudly show your *achievement* to friends, family, and employer.. hurry, hurry, hurry.."
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Ham
I'd better go for now, and get the presses lubed and warmed up..
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kimberly
You have read my previous posts on other threads about being a child of sexual abuse and how I feel about religion.
I am not moved by any of vp's early religious associations. It is all religion. Spew, puke, vomit. The pot calling the kettle black.
I am very well aquainted with a counselor/therapist who helps folks with this. Funny thing, she was literally born and raised in twi. I am closer to her mother (because we live in the same town) who was there from the beginning of twi.
I post this with absolute love, caring and no judgement.
I am very concerned about all the raging anger and hurt I read here. There are more dedicated folks than you may realize to help in the healing.
WDJD.....What did Jesus do? Now talk about someone hurt, abused.....
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rascal
Funny thing about rape, about forced servitude, physical abuse, sexual abuse, our babies hurt, forced abortion, being alienated from family and friends, broken hearts, broken families, tens of thousands of lives destroyed. It tends to breed a bit of raging anger in those whom this great evil was perpetrated upon.
These people, if they did not do this to us directly, did it to a beloved sister or brother. They did it in GOD`S name. If that doesn`t generate anger and disgust then I don`t know what in the world is wrong with you.
As far as what would Jesus do? How about looking ar what HE said and did to the money changers and pharacees who hurt God`s people?? He freakin chased them around with whips and turned over tables...he called the pharacees some of the vilest names of the time....He didn`t sit by and allow people to steal in God`s name THAT`S for sure.
This Bull sheet about Jesus not wanting us to be angry over the spiritual/physical/mental
rape of so many, over the leading of tens of thousands into darkness..over the pain and shattered lives of so many innocent men women and children, ALL facilitated by scripture, IN God`s name or fail to see it as an absolute abomination, to me is unfathomable. Further morem to do it and act like it is the spiritualy healthy thing makes no sense.
Frankly I am at a loss as to why anyone isn`t deeply offended that some punk is trying to recreate the same damned broken system that allowed the rampant abuse to flourish in the first place.
Be concerned over my raging anger if you must Kimberly, but quite frankly your absence of understanding surrounding t he shattered lives, and abuse perpetrated in God`s name by ministers claiming to work for God, is to me baffeling and unnatural, like you don`t really comprehend the depths of the evil wrought, the impact on the survivors...it`s like something switched off inside...shrug.
Whatever, your inapropriate invocation of what Jesus would do in the case of spiritual theft, abuse and manipulation by spiritual leaders in God`s name reminds me forcefully of the way scriptures in twi were brandished as a weapon to steal, to enforce compliance, and permit atrocities.
To NOT shout from the roof tops what we know about the foundations of this group are, what the hidden dangers of following these new leaders, of what damage these doctrines present, is as far as I am concerned, unpardonable :(
You may not understand my anger, you may not be comfortable with me expressing it, but that in no way makes it wrong or inapropriate or lacking in spirituality under these circumstances.
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Ham
I wouldn't call it raging anger. Some of us have learned how to "channel" it in constructive ways.
I really think it's a fallacy that people can be so deeply wounded and miraculously "healed" by the wave of a religious quote like, what would Jesus do.. or even analysis.. they might help one understand the experience, and how to cope..
like it or not, we are all "flawed".
I think if people are bound to the extent they can't get angry, or express rage, at least in an appropriate manner, it's not good..
Isn't.. displaying dissapointment, anger, "concern", and even masked rage about people supposedly expressing anger and rage.. the same thing?
I really don't think you understand what you think you understand here..
WWJD? What I think.. he'd sit down, be QUIET.. (I'm being polite here), LISTEN for a LONG TIME, and bear a few burdens..
I'd say most of us here, have been abused by pharisees for YEARS- some even decades.
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Ham
Call it whatever you want, I call it "dialogue". But maybe the "other guy" just happens to have a lot more to say..
stifle people's genuine emotions and valid reactions with a few religious quotes and references to "those who can heal" is the surest way to close it..
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kimberly
Duh, exactly!!!
How did the Lord handle being abused?
Hhhhmmm, how did He handle stuff with Peter after He knew that Peter had denied Him? The Lord heard Peter deny Him and then their eyes met. Talk about feeling you are all alone in the world. What did the soldiers do to the Lord? They didn't tiptoe Him through the tulips. I think just a little itty bitty bit of abuse took place at their hands. What did He do?
Therefore I stand by what I said. What did He do? Who and where was His healing? We think that we have been through anything that He didn't? Therefore.....what did He do to come out on top?
Somes of ya read into my post what was not there. It is evident because you did not read what WAS there. My post was about healing. Surely to God you want that.
Now, I am going to whirl some whips.....I know about growing up with spiritual, sexual abuse, baby. My step dad was a P^$C)*^$L preacher. Been there had that happen to me. That is why I SAID in my post that I would never make light of anyone's abuse. Try being in the third grade and your step-dad, the holy preacher man, attempting to have sex with you. That was only the beginning.
I lived it for a long time. I left home the end of 11th grade. The sexual abuse ended after 8th grade. But he stepped up the physical abuse which I endured even before 3rd grade. Beatings, beatings, beatings...... my brother is dead because of his physical abuse.
So, before you yap your keyboard to me about not understanding or being empathetic, or loving or caring.....
There is healing, loved ones.
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geisha779
What is irksome to me is even with a degree mill title, we all called him Doctor. I don't even call my primary Care --"Doctor", I call him Ray.
I know many people with Ph.D's and most of them don't use Doctor at all. A few in their professional life, but most don't run around wanting to be called the "Doctor".
It was a big ego stroke. I think those "Critics" got to him more than we realize.
Where did VP get his undergrad degree? It is rare that people will get their graduate degree at the same institution as their undergrad degree, but why didn't he just stay at Princeton Theological for the ph.D? Just curious.
Who TWI are and what they do--should be exposed. How can you expose them without it rousing a certain degree of anger? ESPECIALLY if you LIVED some of the horror and wasted years of your life involved, and have a conscience.
Not everyone still thinks they learned the truth in TWI.
Many are coming to the realization that we were duped. That God didn't give VP all this special knowledge. That we were NOT the special elite--but, that can be a slow and often painful process. But ya know what? It is important. It really is important. It helps us heal.
Putting it all together, by bouncing it off each other, is such a human way of dealing with ---what was a huge part of our lives. Important to examine for a healthy life--I think. This is a good way to do it--
Besides, these posts are just that--small snippets of a discussion--I am sure we all function just fine IRL.
Jesus never forgave the Pharisees--he told them their end--Paul also was bold in proclaiming the end of false teachers. So are we. Expose them for who and what they are. . . . warn others. . . . keep ourselves safe. . .and relate to the FEW people in this world who can truly understand what we went through.
There are not THAT many of us for goodness sakes.
I watch these arguments and think to myself. . . . it always comes down to how much you still adhere to "Way Dcotrine". WWJD???. . . .the Jesus I know would have plenty to say about the abuse. . . . none of it pretty. That was the stuff He swiftly condemned!
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Tzaia
I asked about the calling him "dr." thing and was told it was done "out of respect" not because he insisted. Ok. From that point forward he was VP.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Kim, I am sorry that your step-Dad abused you and am glad that you are healing from this event. However, you did not say if he was arrested for child molestation, put on trial, and jailed. If that is too personal, please forgive me.
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JeffSjo
Hi Kimberly,
Personally, I still think that you are very kind!
I'm really sorry for the things that you went through. They certainly seem to be on par with the very worst of the abuse that folks here suffered at the hands of TWI ministers.
Speaking for myself alone, the whole issue of this thread, the credibilty of Wierwille's credentials is as I said before, the least of my concerns. But as much of this new info on TWI that I've heard here at the greasespot has helped me make sense of TWI and the splinter group that I used to belong to, I often feel fairly intense emotions.
I'm quite certain that having this place to share (or vent if you prefer) them has helped me cope with the events of my life considerably better than most of the last four years of my life when I didn't have anybody to talk through these things that had much to offer in terms of useful insight.
Biblically speaking, the Lord spoke very strongly against causing his folks to stumble and or be offended. I think he reffered to it being better to have a big stone tied to them and being thrown in the lake than to face the consequences of causing the children to stumble. After hearing of your stepdad I'm certain that he fits this scripture as well as Wierwille. Except that I'm guessing that Wierwille has adversly affected many, many more people than your abuser did.
For me, I think a much better question than "What Would Jesus Do" is WHAT WILL JESUS DO!!! (to these bastards that is!) I talk about this because considering these things are a comfort to me.
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rascal
Well FIRST off, to refer to my thoughts, or anyone else here as *yapping at our key boards* is I believe, completely lacking in respect and courtesy. A very convenient way to totally dismiss any understanding that God MIGHT have wrought in others hearts and lives to this point. A real screw you (like THATS real Jesus like) to those whom he has brought so very very far since leaving the spiritual corruption, moral bankruptcy, and darkness of association with twi and it`s leaders.
To dismiss aothers point of view as simple *yapping* because you personally do not wish to consider that portion of Jesus` life or how he delt with the spiritual leaders whom were abusing and stealing in his name verses a fellow who simply messed up out of fear, is I believe to limit yourself in understanding of who he was, what his instructions were, and what our responsibilities are as Christians are today.
You do as you please, but I think that to try to force someone to take the actions that you yourself deem as correct by presenting them as what Jesus would do hypothetically is treading in dangerous territory.
Secondly, as a survivor of horrific abuse, I think that how you deal with what is necessary for personal peace and healing can be in a different catagory than what Jesus expects of us in the case of religious exploitation and abuse of spiritual leaders in the name of God.
I think that we are talking about apples and oranges when we discuss the way Jesus delt with Peter and the way he delt with the pharacees and money changers.
These people whom perpetuate the corrupt doctrines of twi, are attempting to once again ensnare people in God`s name. I think Jesus` conduct at the temple with the money changers and the pharacees makes it QUITE clear. WWJD??? Now that you mention it, I think it might be a lot of fun to decend on a sts at the auditorium brandishing a whip, turning flipping tables..... chase everyone out of the building yelling the most vile names that I can think of...Yeah that Jesus...what a GUY!! Sigh too darned bad that is considered illegal in todays world :)
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rascal
These guys use their fake doctorates and false titles to give them a credibility and sense of character and integrety that they have never ever earned.
There is a reason that a real doctorate takes years and years of hard work. It is all part of the character and stamina developed along the way.
These guys never had the morals, the stamina, the character, not to mention being of the spirit to be a genuine minister for God. They had to buy their titles in order to decieve folks.
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Ham
I have never heard anyone outside of der vey who had a legitimate doctorate even refer to themselves as "doctor".
Perhaps some have..
but the vicster puts those words in the dialog in the mouths of those he supposedly respected.. like Karl Barth. "well, *Dr* wierwille, if what you see is true.."
I'll bet he called him "vic".. in real life.
These con artists seem to enjoy stroking themselves with that title..
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Tzaia
I have. They usually have size issues - if you get my drift.
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Oakspear
I have the equivalent of a degree mill ordination...Universal Life Church.
I've got it so I perform weddings and have "Rev." on my business card.
But I always introduce myself to folks who use my services as "Tom".
(Rascal...the doctorate that I conferred upon you is worth about as much as Wierwille's...more actually
)
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waysider
My brother-in-law has a PhD in Engineering. (He is a private consultant.) In the 25+ years I have known him, I have never heard anyone call him "Doctor" nor have I ever heard him refer to himself in this manner.
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