2 Cor 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth - in Him.
Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. . . . . .
In a marriage we are one flesh. One body. Couldn't we be members of the body of our bridegroom? Similar to the mystery of one flesh in a marraige?
What if God Himself in the person of Jesus came and did this? Now that would just blow us away--huh? It would make it pretty darn spectacular!
Might also help us understand a bit how God can be One.
Something to consider I guess.
I hope JJuedes comes to shed some light on this. :) I am no theologian.
I believe we are members of the Body of Christ on earth.
Bride of Christ in heaven.
Don't know the scriptures to follow up with this, but that is what my church teaches, and for now I'm good with that.
I guess I should do some research of my own.
The reason TWI taught Israel is the Bride of Christ is because they teach Jesus Christ and the Gospels are all Old Testament and for our learning only, as the Old Testament does not apply to us.
When I read what Twinky had posted, I was actually thinking about the verse where the 2 become one flesh and whether that would apply and kind of unite both aspects. I think both analogies/illustrations could work for us in our day and time--the One Body and the Bride. (Not 100% sure either-just thought it was kind of interesting.)
I have begun questioning the ultra-dispensationalism that twi taught and teaches. I defintely see that there is an Old and a New Covenant in the Bible--but it seems that there are a lot of parallels between the two covenants like the first Adam and the 2nd Adam.
I have spent a lot of time reading the Gospels since having left twi and find that I was really missing out on a lot by concentrating on the Epistles only.
I believe we are members of the Body of Christ on earth.
Bride of Christ in heaven.
Don't know the scriptures to follow up with this, but that is what my church teaches, and for now I'm good with that.
I guess I should do some research of my own.
The reason TWI taught Israel is the Bride of Christ is because they teach Jesus Christ and the Gospels are all Old Testament and for our learning only, as the Old Testament does not apply to us.
I don't think that is right.
WG
I think this is a possibility.
I think the answers I've heard so far- the "either/or" answers, don't explain it all,
JohnJ uses Eph 5:23 to support us being the bride of Christ; but that ignores Eph 5:30 which calls us members of his body.
TWI taught (teaches?) that the Bride of Christ is the believers at and before the coming of Christ. The Jewish church, if you will.
(At the same time, we are also Sons of God and Brothers of Christ... just using familiar human relationships to express a relationship which is so far beyond words.)
Twinky-
It seems to me that your question is based on a false assumption- that the Church can't be both the body of Christ and the hride of Christ at the same time. It doesn't ignore Ep 5:30 (that we are the body) to also accept Eph 5:23 (that we are the wife/ bride).
As a matter of Fact, Ephesians uses many other images to describe the Church, such as stones in a temple (2:21-22), citizens in Israel (2:12), and children of light (5:8). In all there are probably around 30-40 images of the Church (such as salt, light, lampstands, etc) in the NT. You mentioned this yourself- "we are also sons and brothers". It's not that just one of these is correct (like body) and all the others are wrong, but that each image has something unique to add about what believers in Jesus Christ are like. We add them together, not pit them against each other.
There are other verses on we being the bride- someone posted one (2 Cor 11). There is also parables such as the 10 virgins, in which Jesus Christ is the groom.
But again, it's not a matter of counting up to see which title is used the most, choosing it, and throwing out all the other images, but of accepting every image even if it is used only once.
TWI's ultradispensationalism ("administrations) sets up many false dichotomies. A nice paperback about ultradispensationalism (Wierwille got the idea from theologicans who were a lot more competent than him) is the H.A. Ironside book, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth. Note that the book/ booklet was written around the time VP was a kid, yet thwe term "Rightly Dividing" was in wide use then.
Interesting, and agreed there are a lot of different figures of speech. All have something to offer. After all a Bride can hardly be a city, no matter how physically beautiful it is. And what does a Lamb want with a Bride anyway?
TWI did teach that a godly marriage (=between Christians) is like the relationship between Christ and his church; but the marriage relationship is a symbol, an example, of that Christ and believer/church relationship.
(VP also I think went so far as to say that marriage was only suitable for believers! Unbelievers don't have the stamina to see it through and don't get the fullness of the spiritual connection between spouses. What a crock!!)
We are to be subject to Christ as the Head of the body. As members of the body, we have a responsibility to exhort and encourage both Jews and Gentiles alike (ready to give an answer to everyone; God wants all [men] to be saved, etc.)
The Jews, as God's chosen people pre-Christ (not that God ever turned anyone away!), didn't and don't have the same evangelical function. They just lived their lives and if outsiders chose to join with them, they could do so, on particular conditions (inc circumcision for men) and were excluded from full participation for several generations. "Wives" weren't expected to be proselytizers and in fact probably got very little opportunity to do so, being confined to home responsibilities in a Jewish environment. Men by contrast did trade and travel on journeys but even so weren't given any "ministry of reconciliation" equivalent.
I find it significant that there is very little in the post-Acts writings mentioning "bride" or "wife" except representationally, and so much more explicitly saying "body".
Christ Jesus and I have the same Father. So, if we have the same Father then I can not be the wife. If I am................sicko!!!!!!!!!!!
Think about it you guys.
By that logic no believers could ever get married, since they are brother and sister in Christ. I think you may be taking the symbolism too literally. There are a number of symbolic pictures of the Church, as JohnJ pointed out.
The terms bride and body are figures of speech, I believe in this case, metaphors. More than one metaphor can and often does apply. If there is some verse that clearly states that Christians aren't one or the other, then there is no reason that I can see that both metaphors can't apply to different aspects of Christians-as-a-whole.
TWI made this error with other metaphors, most notably the whole athlete of the spirit teaching.
If we understand the reason Paul (and other apostles) wrote epistles, then we understand better why "body" is used so often in the epistles.
Many of them address conflict in the church (esp 1 & 2 Corinthians), and how believers should interact with each other- especially a hard topic since the Church was both Jew and Gentile, which had a history of not understanding each other and getting along.
"Body" is an image especially strong on interaction between believers (members of the body), while "bride" is more focused on the relationship we have with Jesus Christ. By contrast, the Gospel of John is much more focused on our relationship with Jesus rather than our interaction with believers, so the images there emphasize relationship with Christ much more than the epistles.
If we understand the reason Paul (and other apostles) wrote epistles, then we understand better why "body" is used so often in the epistles.
Many of them address conflict in the church (esp 1 & 2 Corinthians), and how believers should interact with each other- especially a hard topic since the Church was both Jew and Gentile, which had a history of not understanding each other and getting along.
"Body" is an image especially strong on interaction between believers (members of the body), while "bride" is more focused on the relationship we have with Jesus Christ. By contrast, the Gospel of John is much more focused on our relationship with Jesus rather than our interaction with believers, so the images there emphasize relationship with Christ much more than the epistles.
Ruben Archer Torrey, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Arthur Lankin, and particularly Ethelbert Bullinger taught this heresy and the term "dispensional(administration-actually stewardship~ecumenical/economy/oikonemeo(?)). Therefore Gospel of Matthew(maidens, bride, and groom), despite the Gospels being written later than Paul's epistles, and Revelation was a contemporary commentary on Nero's murdering Christians and Jews. BTW, I don't believe in Christians being "beamed up"(Star Trek terminology)/evacuated/"Raptured/Gathered Together". In other words, expect a potential genocide of all Christians. In fact this has been the case for nearly 2000 years by Satan/AntiChrist.
there is a saying that applies to allegories, metaphors, parables and figures of speech in the Bible. It is "don't make it walk on all fours."
In other words, each story/ figure has mainly one central point. So don't push the figure to an extreme by trying to imagine what every detail of the story means. For example, the picture of bride of Christ primarily points to love he has for us (and us for him), commitment and faithfulness (esp- not worship other gods).
We shouldn't take it to an extreme by saying... "what does "bride" suggest about children- are we supposed to have children with Christ? What does it say about sex? What about the family we leave to marry Christ? Does marrying Christ mean not marrying a man or woman (as nuns didn't)? There was a hint of this in Twinky's first post where she suggests "problems" of logic that occur in picturing us as being both body and bride.
Just get the central point of the parable/ metaphor, which is probably all the authors intnded, and don't puch the metaphor to extremes.
PS: Sometimes as a preaching/ teaching device you can wangle extra details from a metaphor. But when you do, it's good to be wise about it and state openly that you're pushing it beyond what the apostles intended, as a teaching device. One illustration of this is the "Shepherd of Hermas." It was written in the first century and almost made it into the New Testament, because it was so highly respected and used by early Christians. "Shepherd" takes the image of believers as stones in God's building (as in Ephesians 2) and imagines different kinds of stones. Rough ones are believers who have sins and bad habits to be trimmed, broken stones are people who were unfit for the building because of unbelief and were rejected, masons are church leaders, etc. It's fascinating reading and has good things to learn in it. But it's a good teaching device rather than being Scripture.
I think you may have misread me, John. Were you thinking of Geisha's and Penguin's posts soon after my first one?
In any event, I don't think there are any "sex" or "children" issues in relation to these figures of speech. Spirit beings don't marry nor are given in marriage and that's simply not relevant here.
The focus is on our own relationship to Christ - as a husband? as the head of our body?
(In view of the violence perpetrated against so many women by their husbands, such violence being condoned or at least not condemned by TWI, it calls into question the whole bride/husband relationship and few women here would vote for that sort of relationship!! But that's a digression.)
I do not think that the Lord Jesus Christ would have beaten his wife, threatened her with weapons, or constantly put her down. In fact, we see his relationship with women as being affirming, uplifting, and encouraging, and way beyond any cultural boundaries.
And we have greater works available to us to be able to do, than he did.
Wouldn't that make us more important than a mere female, in the Mediterranean culture of the time?
(In view of the violence perpetrated against so many women by their husbands, such violence being condoned or at least not condemned by TWI, it calls into question the whole bride/husband relationship and few women here would vote for that sort of relationship!! But that's a digression.)
I do not think that the Lord Jesus Christ would have beaten his wife, threatened her with weapons, or constantly put her down. In fact, we see his relationship with women as being affirming, uplifting, and encouraging, and way beyond any cultural boundaries.
Wouldn't that make us more important than a mere female, in the Mediterranean culture of the time?
You note a real problem in applying any human image to God - human beings twist it. In that way, the wife/ husband image has its shortfalls. But every other human-like image does, too. God as Father is tough for anyone who had bad fathers. God as chicken ("I wanted to take you under my wings (to protect you) but you would not," Jesus said) is tough for anyone who's raised chickens. God as King is tough for anyone who's lived under a dictator.
The strength of human images is that we can relate to them. The weakness is that humans twist everything good, no matter what it is.
With every image, we have to teach God as the ideal husband, the ideal chicken, the ideal Father, etc. This is the biblical view of God/Christ as husband. Everyone who has had pain from a husband/Father/ etc also has at least a rough mental image of what they'd like one to be. This is the image we work with.
By the way, the converse of the "bad husband" image is the "bad wife." I don't think Christ wants us to treat him as little respect, love, kindness, etc, that many wives show their husbands. So even in the "wife" image of what we are supposed to be to Christ, we have to look at the ideal not the typical human version. (Another digression- women were reated much better, and had more rights, in jewish society in the first century than people commonly think today. One evidence of this was the Bar Kochba letters found in a cave by the Dead Sea.)
The image of wife is very, very common throughout the OT (eg- Hosea) and NT. It's a powerful image to teach mutual faithfulness, love, commitment. It's just as important as "head." The two images teach different, but equally valuable, things. I don't see any value in ranking them.
I believe we are members of the Body of Christ on earth.
Bride of Christ in heaven.
So John do you agree with the above? Or do you not think we are a part of any "Body" at all? Do you think Paul used this imagery inappropriately?
Does it matter?
So what I'm thinking now is:
We are SONS of God (because He says so)
We are BROTHERS (maybe BROTHERS AND SISTERS) of the Lord Jesus Christ
We act together as a BODY representing the Lord Jesus Christ, on this earth, right now and as such representing him outwards, to unbelievers.
We look forward together with other believers, as a BRIDE (even if we are male) looking forward to union with her husband
and we wear these different statuses as we might wear our earthly roles - as a child, sibling, spouse, parent, next door neighbor, boss, employee - simultaneously, but we're still only the one person.
What I think we missed with TWI theology is the love relationship we can have with the Lord. All those things found in an ideal husband. . . . they are possible to have with the Lord. . . today. He is all the things that are good. He is faithful, kind, tender, wise and always loves us best. He actually does the very best for us--right now. He is not absent in our hearts.
We can commune with Him--look to Him to guide--confide in Him--He never judges us Twinky. Think of someone who is truly a friend. . . they are rare. Someone who only wants the best for you and will provide it. No matter how far we wander, and we do, He gently corrects us and brings us back to that relationship. It is the one thing you can forever count on.
He woos us by simply revealing Himself. But, it is not always easy for us because we are flesh, He works in our lives to refine and perfect us.
And, we wait and long. . . . because someday we will be with this great love of our lives. . . .our best friend--brother. . .father. . . our everything. . . face to face--we will be wed together forever. That is quite a thrilling thing to look forward to.
While we wait--we submit to His authority--because He is right and good--perfect and we know and trust Him. We have that kind of relationship--we have faith in Him--He is worthy of it. We know He will never cause us harm or steer us wrong. . . we trust in Him. Once we know--nothing else works.
We are to be faithful too.
BY what TWI taught us and our obsession with the written word above all else. . . . many of us missed it. We thought--absent Christ--Body not Bride--JCING--No praying to Him--Big Bro---MOG and on and on.
We were cut off from the vine. That is what Christianity is. . . . Christ. He is alive and well and wants that intimate relationship with us. It is how we know God.
For all TWI's talk about grace--we didn't have clue one about what that meant.
I think all those teachings and hodge podge theology in TWI--were actually really about one man VP's rejection of Christ.
we wear these different statuses as we might wear our earthly roles - as a child, sibling, spouse, parent, next door neighbor, boss, employee - simultaneously, but we're still only the one person.
Yes?
Yes, we are brothers (the Greek word in the plural means both brothers and sisters, not just males) and sisters, sons, body, wife, bride, branches, sheep, servants of the King, etc -- ALL of these at the same time. These are all figures of speech, not literal, which is why we can be wife, brothers, sons, sheep, etc all at the same time, all right now. Each symbol carries usually just one or two main thoughts about some aspect of our relationship with Jesus Christ (eg- wife = love, faithfulness, commitment).
I think the reason there are so many pictures regarding our relationship with Christ (and some that on the surface seem contradictory, like wife and son) is because our relationship with Jesus Christ is so multi-faceted.
This is different and far greater than our other relationships, which are for the most part pretty narrow in focus. (For instance, our employee-boss relationship is very narrow in scope, other brother-sister is narrow, etc). It is truly amazing and inspiring to meditate on how broad and deep our relationship with Jesus Crist is (or is meant to be). And it impresses me that it is a whole lot more all-encompassing than the world or TWI ever pictured it to be. Their loss. But a great treasure to all Christians who love the Lord Jesus.
So what we are seeing in the NT is a mature relationship - because we are under grace.
In the OT the believers are under the law as under a school master. The relationship there is more teacher/ pupil or if you like parent/ child.
The child grows up. Any parent might expect the child to mature into a responsible adult with different "rules" for life which have been internalised from the childhood teachings and considered, meditated upon, by the child. The child has learned to apply the childhood rules in varying circumstances and where there is not always a clear rule.
More mature terminology than parent/ child (where there is a great disparity in status) is the spousal relationship where both are on an equal footing (as God so made them in the beginning). So bride/wife and husband may also symbolise that more mature relationship. Not a "child bride".
all those teachings and hodge podge theology in TWI--were actually really about one man VP's rejection of Christ.
You could have a point here. If we are the Body, we keep looking at ourselves - not outside ourselves. Not at the LJC but at another member of the "Body".
You could have a point here. If we are the Body, we keep looking at ourselves - not outside ourselves. Not at the LJC but at another member of the "Body".
Hi Twinky,
If VP was the Bride--He would have submitted.
I honestly think it goes even deeper with VP. Just think about it for a sec. VP came out of a church--and seminary!
Everything he knew--he rejected. He didn't like the church. . . . think about how often he bad mouthed other ministers. I remember him saying Billy Grahm and the rest knew the truth of what he VP said, but they were sold out to money.
He rejected the bride. The body. They were carnal Christians remember?
VP was carnal. He didn't want to submit to authority within the church. They held him accountable for his actions. They were faithful to the Lord.
Every teaching he sought out separated him from the Lord and His authority over us. Absent Christ--while the cat's away. . . . you get my drift. It was an actual rejection. . . . right down to who Jesus is. That was his crowning rejection. Although denying the Holy Spirit WHO--yes a WHO LOL convicts us of our sins was pretty bad.
How do we think he was able to use people so hurtfully--to abuse--to really spiritually maim in the name of God.
That takes some serious rejection of Christ's LOVE and authority. VP relegated Him to some bizarre freakish created being. Was the Jesus of TWI to be obeyed? How could He be--HE was absent. Even so, He was just like us, but with an extra dose of little hs.
Did we know how much the Lord desired us and was jealous over us? No, we were so frickin afraid of idolatry!!
Ingenious really.
VP was free from that intimate relationship. Free from being faithful to Him in all things--free from authority. He rejected it--and the Lord does not force Himself on us--we choose. That is how he was able to rape and steal--lie and cheat. VP said NO Thanks. Did the Lord ever correct him? It got worse--VP was the MOGFODT. He became what Jesus should be in a Christians life.
The thing that makes it down right evil is that VP knew the truth. He didn't just walk away from the church. . . no. . . He started his own ministry. He sought out things that allowed him to continue on sinning in the name of God.
I could get biblical and show you the verses about false teachers. . . what they do. . . . what it means, but you probably know better than I--you are a smart cookie.
What really ticks me off--more than anything--is all these lovely people, and there are so many in twi and especially ex-twi, who got tricked. They now struggle so to have a relationship with the Lord--whom they were taught to actually fear. Afraid of idolatry by putting the Lord in the rightful place in their hearts. Afraid of turning to Him instead of the Father or the MOG. Afraid of His NAME!!
How we missed that no man comes to the Father except by Him--I still don't get? How we missed that Jesus is God's revelation of Himself to us--beyond me? How we missed that the way we know God is through Jesus Christ?
We knew the bible, but see how we missed the most basic and now obvious things? It is because the whole thing is about Christ. God's final and forever revelation of Himself--He walked among us!! We will be with Him always. Gives one chills.
We were seriously lied to.
The other thing that really gets me very ANGRY is the gospel message. The GREATNESS of what was done for us on the cross. We NEVER heard it in TWI. I didn't hear it until years after I left. My ears were clogged with arrogance and mush from TWI. For me it took YEARS!! I had heard a completely enemic--watered down--carnal story in TWI--didn't save me--it made me self-righteous. But, you could not tell me--I was saved--I SIT.
I could go on, but as it is I am treading on thin ice here with some already--LOL
But I think you get my point. . .
VP was a false teacher who rejected Christ--He found teachings that justified this. . . Body not Bride. . . . .I sometimes think it is best to throw out the baby--the bathwater--the tub--the sink and everything else we collected from our time in TWI--but that is me--everyone is different.
. . . . .I sometimes think it is best to throw out the baby--the bathwater--the tub--the sink and everything else we collected from our time in TWI--but that is me--everyone is different.
Good move...it's really the only way to flush all that crap out of our systems.
I will respectfully disagree with some of you here. I believe The One body and the Bride are not the same.
We need only to compare the two groups and it becomes clear.
First, I believe the "mystery" revealed by risen Christ to Paul while in prison in Ephesians is the culmination of God's purpose of the ages.
I believe this age of the mystery, this age of Grace was unprophesied. It was not prophesised about in the Old Testament, nor Revelation. It was a secret, hidden from before the foundation of the world, but is now revealed to Paul. If it had been revealed Satan never, ever would have let Christ be crucified - never. He sealed his doom.
Its like two hills. The old testament prophet could see Christ coming and crucified on the top of one hill, and look and see the hill behind it with the "kingdom of God" and Christ as King in Glory, but could not see what was in the valley between the two hills. The valley is the mystery kept secret. The age of grace, us.
God uses a phrase "before the foundation of the world." From what I've read of it, its kind of like BC/AD to us. Its an important dividing line. Before the foundation of the world is Gen. 1:1 in its perfection in eternity. From, or since the foundation of the world is Gen 1:2 - the restoration of the earth after it became without form or void.
There were only two "beings" called from "before the foundation of the world." Christ, and us.
We were called in eternity.
Israel was called "from the foundation of the earth." They were not called in eternity.
This is two different callings.
So, here's my little comparison:
1. Israel in time: Called from, or since the foundation of the world (Gen 1:2)
Church in time: Called before the foundation of the world (Gen 1:1) - only Christ and us are
called and purposed "before" the foundation of the earth
2. Israel: Holy spirit upon Israel
Church: Holy spirit in us - we are sealed
3. Israel: Their sphere and dominion is the earth,
fulfilled in Rev. with the new Jerusalem
on earth, comes down from heaven
Church: We are seated in heavenlies our sphere is heaven
Jerusalem is not our promise or inheritance
4. Israel: Their eternity is in eternal, fleshly bodies on earth
such as Christ's resurrected body was - flesh and
bone
Church: Our eternity is as as a new, spiritual creation
5. Israel: Their sphere is earthly
Church: Our sphere is heavenly - we are seated in the heavenlies
6. Israel: They are promised "the Kingdom" on earth
Church: We are promised heaven
7. Israel: Messiah and Israel rule over mankind on earth
Church: We rule over and judge angels in the heavenlies
8. Israel: Israel is Christ's bride
Church: The church fills up Christ's body in the heavenlies
We are called to be a "new creation." Israel, is never called a "new creation" nor promised to be a "new creation."
Israel is now "lo ammi" (not my people). The covenant connected with Israel as a NATION and their LAND is held in abayance until we are taken out of the way.
When Israel rejected the prophets, the Messiah on earth who preached the Kingdom of God is at hand - it was here! It would have happened now if they had accepted Christ, and then, the last ditch effort by God of sending the 12 apostles to them to repent - it was still not too late, the Kingdom would have come - Israel rejected the offer and...
God goes to the Gentiles, stops the prophetic clock, and now, calls us and makes a new creation - us.
When we are gathered together, the prophetic clock will start up and continue again.
That is why Paul tells the believers in Thessalonians, they don't need to know about the signs and times - those are for Israel (after we are gathered), not for those of us in the age of grace. We are told to look for Christ, not the Antichrist. For Christ, not what Russia or the EU or Nero is doing.
But because Christians don't make this distinction between this unprophesied age and the OT times, they take the prophesies of the OT, of Christ in the Gospels (remember - he came ONLY to Israel in his ministry on earth - to call them to the Kingdom that was at hand) and apply these prophecies to themselves - which is not right, since we are living in an unprophesised time period.
The prophecies of the OT are fulfilled and completed in Revelation.
Thus, prophecy of the "end times" as many Christians are into today, though, while fascinating and wonderful to understand - do not apply to us. We are in an unprophesied time period.
As the church, the one body, the new creation - as a different species that will be revealed someday:
We are not Israel, who is the bride - they were never told they would be a "new creation."
You have two different groups, called out at two different times, with two different purposes in God's mind, with two different spheres of being and two different destinies.
We were called in eternity, we shall live in the heavenlies in eternity as a new creation - a new species, a new being that has never been seen or conceived of, except in the mind of God before Gen. 1:1 - conceived in eternity. Those are our promises. That is amazing grace.
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geisha779
Hi Twinky
Maybe these verses will help.
2 Cor 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth - in Him.
Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. . . . . .
In a marriage we are one flesh. One body. Couldn't we be members of the body of our bridegroom? Similar to the mystery of one flesh in a marraige?
What if God Himself in the person of Jesus came and did this? Now that would just blow us away--huh? It would make it pretty darn spectacular!
Might also help us understand a bit how God can be One.
Something to consider I guess.
I hope JJuedes comes to shed some light on this. :) I am no theologian.
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Watered Garden
I believe we are members of the Body of Christ on earth.
Bride of Christ in heaven.
Don't know the scriptures to follow up with this, but that is what my church teaches, and for now I'm good with that.
I guess I should do some research of my own.
The reason TWI taught Israel is the Bride of Christ is because they teach Jesus Christ and the Gospels are all Old Testament and for our learning only, as the Old Testament does not apply to us.
I don't think that is right.
WG
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penguin
Geisha, (And Hi to twinky too! :) )
When I read what Twinky had posted, I was actually thinking about the verse where the 2 become one flesh and whether that would apply and kind of unite both aspects. I think both analogies/illustrations could work for us in our day and time--the One Body and the Bride. (Not 100% sure either-just thought it was kind of interesting.)
I have begun questioning the ultra-dispensationalism that twi taught and teaches. I defintely see that there is an Old and a New Covenant in the Bible--but it seems that there are a lot of parallels between the two covenants like the first Adam and the 2nd Adam.
I have spent a lot of time reading the Gospels since having left twi and find that I was really missing out on a lot by concentrating on the Epistles only.
Have an awesome day!
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WordWolf
I think this is a possibility.
I think the answers I've heard so far- the "either/or" answers, don't explain it all,
and am looking for a more comprehensive answer.
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WordWolf
Husband and wife is one flesh, one flesh is one body.
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matthew 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Matthew 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mark 10:8
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Ephesians 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
===============
Then again,
it's possible the LITERAL answer is far beyond various FIGURES used to ASSIST (not REPLACE) our understanding.
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johnj
Twinky-
It seems to me that your question is based on a false assumption- that the Church can't be both the body of Christ and the hride of Christ at the same time. It doesn't ignore Ep 5:30 (that we are the body) to also accept Eph 5:23 (that we are the wife/ bride).
As a matter of Fact, Ephesians uses many other images to describe the Church, such as stones in a temple (2:21-22), citizens in Israel (2:12), and children of light (5:8). In all there are probably around 30-40 images of the Church (such as salt, light, lampstands, etc) in the NT. You mentioned this yourself- "we are also sons and brothers". It's not that just one of these is correct (like body) and all the others are wrong, but that each image has something unique to add about what believers in Jesus Christ are like. We add them together, not pit them against each other.
There are other verses on we being the bride- someone posted one (2 Cor 11). There is also parables such as the 10 virgins, in which Jesus Christ is the groom.
But again, it's not a matter of counting up to see which title is used the most, choosing it, and throwing out all the other images, but of accepting every image even if it is used only once.
TWI's ultradispensationalism ("administrations) sets up many false dichotomies. A nice paperback about ultradispensationalism (Wierwille got the idea from theologicans who were a lot more competent than him) is the H.A. Ironside book, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth. Note that the book/ booklet was written around the time VP was a kid, yet thwe term "Rightly Dividing" was in wide use then.
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kimberly
Christ Jesus and I have the same Father. So, if we have the same Father then I can not be the wife. If I am................sicko!!!!!!!!!!!
Think about it you guys.
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Twinky
Interesting, and agreed there are a lot of different figures of speech. All have something to offer. After all a Bride can hardly be a city, no matter how physically beautiful it is. And what does a Lamb want with a Bride anyway?
TWI did teach that a godly marriage (=between Christians) is like the relationship between Christ and his church; but the marriage relationship is a symbol, an example, of that Christ and believer/church relationship.
(VP also I think went so far as to say that marriage was only suitable for believers! Unbelievers don't have the stamina to see it through and don't get the fullness of the spiritual connection between spouses. What a crock!!)
We are to be subject to Christ as the Head of the body. As members of the body, we have a responsibility to exhort and encourage both Jews and Gentiles alike (ready to give an answer to everyone; God wants all [men] to be saved, etc.)
The Jews, as God's chosen people pre-Christ (not that God ever turned anyone away!), didn't and don't have the same evangelical function. They just lived their lives and if outsiders chose to join with them, they could do so, on particular conditions (inc circumcision for men) and were excluded from full participation for several generations. "Wives" weren't expected to be proselytizers and in fact probably got very little opportunity to do so, being confined to home responsibilities in a Jewish environment. Men by contrast did trade and travel on journeys but even so weren't given any "ministry of reconciliation" equivalent.
I find it significant that there is very little in the post-Acts writings mentioning "bride" or "wife" except representationally, and so much more explicitly saying "body".
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Mark Clarke
By that logic no believers could ever get married, since they are brother and sister in Christ. I think you may be taking the symbolism too literally. There are a number of symbolic pictures of the Church, as JohnJ pointed out.
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TheEvan
Body or Bride? Yes.
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Oakspear
The terms bride and body are figures of speech, I believe in this case, metaphors. More than one metaphor can and often does apply. If there is some verse that clearly states that Christians aren't one or the other, then there is no reason that I can see that both metaphors can't apply to different aspects of Christians-as-a-whole.
TWI made this error with other metaphors, most notably the whole athlete of the spirit teaching.
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johnj
If we understand the reason Paul (and other apostles) wrote epistles, then we understand better why "body" is used so often in the epistles.
Many of them address conflict in the church (esp 1 & 2 Corinthians), and how believers should interact with each other- especially a hard topic since the Church was both Jew and Gentile, which had a history of not understanding each other and getting along.
"Body" is an image especially strong on interaction between believers (members of the body), while "bride" is more focused on the relationship we have with Jesus Christ. By contrast, the Gospel of John is much more focused on our relationship with Jesus rather than our interaction with believers, so the images there emphasize relationship with Christ much more than the epistles.
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WordWolf
Nice one, John.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ruben Archer Torrey, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Arthur Lankin, and particularly Ethelbert Bullinger taught this heresy and the term "dispensional(administration-actually stewardship~ecumenical/economy/oikonemeo(?)). Therefore Gospel of Matthew(maidens, bride, and groom), despite the Gospels being written later than Paul's epistles, and Revelation was a contemporary commentary on Nero's murdering Christians and Jews. BTW, I don't believe in Christians being "beamed up"(Star Trek terminology)/evacuated/"Raptured/Gathered Together". In other words, expect a potential genocide of all Christians. In fact this has been the case for nearly 2000 years by Satan/AntiChrist.
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johnj
there is a saying that applies to allegories, metaphors, parables and figures of speech in the Bible. It is "don't make it walk on all fours."
In other words, each story/ figure has mainly one central point. So don't push the figure to an extreme by trying to imagine what every detail of the story means. For example, the picture of bride of Christ primarily points to love he has for us (and us for him), commitment and faithfulness (esp- not worship other gods).
We shouldn't take it to an extreme by saying... "what does "bride" suggest about children- are we supposed to have children with Christ? What does it say about sex? What about the family we leave to marry Christ? Does marrying Christ mean not marrying a man or woman (as nuns didn't)? There was a hint of this in Twinky's first post where she suggests "problems" of logic that occur in picturing us as being both body and bride.
Just get the central point of the parable/ metaphor, which is probably all the authors intnded, and don't puch the metaphor to extremes.
PS: Sometimes as a preaching/ teaching device you can wangle extra details from a metaphor. But when you do, it's good to be wise about it and state openly that you're pushing it beyond what the apostles intended, as a teaching device. One illustration of this is the "Shepherd of Hermas." It was written in the first century and almost made it into the New Testament, because it was so highly respected and used by early Christians. "Shepherd" takes the image of believers as stones in God's building (as in Ephesians 2) and imagines different kinds of stones. Rough ones are believers who have sins and bad habits to be trimmed, broken stones are people who were unfit for the building because of unbelief and were rejected, masons are church leaders, etc. It's fascinating reading and has good things to learn in it. But it's a good teaching device rather than being Scripture.
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Twinky
I think you may have misread me, John. Were you thinking of Geisha's and Penguin's posts soon after my first one?
In any event, I don't think there are any "sex" or "children" issues in relation to these figures of speech. Spirit beings don't marry nor are given in marriage and that's simply not relevant here.
The focus is on our own relationship to Christ - as a husband? as the head of our body?
(In view of the violence perpetrated against so many women by their husbands, such violence being condoned or at least not condemned by TWI, it calls into question the whole bride/husband relationship and few women here would vote for that sort of relationship!! But that's a digression.)
I do not think that the Lord Jesus Christ would have beaten his wife, threatened her with weapons, or constantly put her down. In fact, we see his relationship with women as being affirming, uplifting, and encouraging, and way beyond any cultural boundaries.
And we have greater works available to us to be able to do, than he did.
Wouldn't that make us more important than a mere female, in the Mediterranean culture of the time?
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johnj
You note a real problem in applying any human image to God - human beings twist it. In that way, the wife/ husband image has its shortfalls. But every other human-like image does, too. God as Father is tough for anyone who had bad fathers. God as chicken ("I wanted to take you under my wings (to protect you) but you would not," Jesus said) is tough for anyone who's raised chickens. God as King is tough for anyone who's lived under a dictator.
The strength of human images is that we can relate to them. The weakness is that humans twist everything good, no matter what it is.
With every image, we have to teach God as the ideal husband, the ideal chicken, the ideal Father, etc. This is the biblical view of God/Christ as husband. Everyone who has had pain from a husband/Father/ etc also has at least a rough mental image of what they'd like one to be. This is the image we work with.
By the way, the converse of the "bad husband" image is the "bad wife." I don't think Christ wants us to treat him as little respect, love, kindness, etc, that many wives show their husbands. So even in the "wife" image of what we are supposed to be to Christ, we have to look at the ideal not the typical human version. (Another digression- women were reated much better, and had more rights, in jewish society in the first century than people commonly think today. One evidence of this was the Bar Kochba letters found in a cave by the Dead Sea.)
The image of wife is very, very common throughout the OT (eg- Hosea) and NT. It's a powerful image to teach mutual faithfulness, love, commitment. It's just as important as "head." The two images teach different, but equally valuable, things. I don't see any value in ranking them.
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Twinky
So John do you agree with the above? Or do you not think we are a part of any "Body" at all? Do you think Paul used this imagery inappropriately?
Does it matter?
So what I'm thinking now is:
We are SONS of God (because He says so)
We are BROTHERS (maybe BROTHERS AND SISTERS) of the Lord Jesus Christ
We act together as a BODY representing the Lord Jesus Christ, on this earth, right now and as such representing him outwards, to unbelievers.
We look forward together with other believers, as a BRIDE (even if we are male) looking forward to union with her husband
and we wear these different statuses as we might wear our earthly roles - as a child, sibling, spouse, parent, next door neighbor, boss, employee - simultaneously, but we're still only the one person.
Yes?
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geisha779
Twinky,
What I think we missed with TWI theology is the love relationship we can have with the Lord. All those things found in an ideal husband. . . . they are possible to have with the Lord. . . today. He is all the things that are good. He is faithful, kind, tender, wise and always loves us best. He actually does the very best for us--right now. He is not absent in our hearts.
We can commune with Him--look to Him to guide--confide in Him--He never judges us Twinky. Think of someone who is truly a friend. . . they are rare. Someone who only wants the best for you and will provide it. No matter how far we wander, and we do, He gently corrects us and brings us back to that relationship. It is the one thing you can forever count on.
He woos us by simply revealing Himself. But, it is not always easy for us because we are flesh, He works in our lives to refine and perfect us.
And, we wait and long. . . . because someday we will be with this great love of our lives. . . .our best friend--brother. . .father. . . our everything. . . face to face--we will be wed together forever. That is quite a thrilling thing to look forward to.
While we wait--we submit to His authority--because He is right and good--perfect and we know and trust Him. We have that kind of relationship--we have faith in Him--He is worthy of it. We know He will never cause us harm or steer us wrong. . . we trust in Him. Once we know--nothing else works.
We are to be faithful too.
BY what TWI taught us and our obsession with the written word above all else. . . . many of us missed it. We thought--absent Christ--Body not Bride--JCING--No praying to Him--Big Bro---MOG and on and on.
We were cut off from the vine. That is what Christianity is. . . . Christ. He is alive and well and wants that intimate relationship with us. It is how we know God.
For all TWI's talk about grace--we didn't have clue one about what that meant.
I think all those teachings and hodge podge theology in TWI--were actually really about one man VP's rejection of Christ.
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johnj
Yes, we are brothers (the Greek word in the plural means both brothers and sisters, not just males) and sisters, sons, body, wife, bride, branches, sheep, servants of the King, etc -- ALL of these at the same time. These are all figures of speech, not literal, which is why we can be wife, brothers, sons, sheep, etc all at the same time, all right now. Each symbol carries usually just one or two main thoughts about some aspect of our relationship with Jesus Christ (eg- wife = love, faithfulness, commitment).
I think the reason there are so many pictures regarding our relationship with Christ (and some that on the surface seem contradictory, like wife and son) is because our relationship with Jesus Christ is so multi-faceted.
This is different and far greater than our other relationships, which are for the most part pretty narrow in focus. (For instance, our employee-boss relationship is very narrow in scope, other brother-sister is narrow, etc). It is truly amazing and inspiring to meditate on how broad and deep our relationship with Jesus Crist is (or is meant to be). And it impresses me that it is a whole lot more all-encompassing than the world or TWI ever pictured it to be. Their loss. But a great treasure to all Christians who love the Lord Jesus.
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Twinky
I can work with that.
So what we are seeing in the NT is a mature relationship - because we are under grace.
In the OT the believers are under the law as under a school master. The relationship there is more teacher/ pupil or if you like parent/ child.
The child grows up. Any parent might expect the child to mature into a responsible adult with different "rules" for life which have been internalised from the childhood teachings and considered, meditated upon, by the child. The child has learned to apply the childhood rules in varying circumstances and where there is not always a clear rule.
More mature terminology than parent/ child (where there is a great disparity in status) is the spousal relationship where both are on an equal footing (as God so made them in the beginning). So bride/wife and husband may also symbolise that more mature relationship. Not a "child bride".
You could have a point here. If we are the Body, we keep looking at ourselves - not outside ourselves. Not at the LJC but at another member of the "Body".
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geisha779
You could have a point here. If we are the Body, we keep looking at ourselves - not outside ourselves. Not at the LJC but at another member of the "Body".
Hi Twinky,
If VP was the Bride--He would have submitted.
I honestly think it goes even deeper with VP. Just think about it for a sec. VP came out of a church--and seminary!
Everything he knew--he rejected. He didn't like the church. . . . think about how often he bad mouthed other ministers. I remember him saying Billy Grahm and the rest knew the truth of what he VP said, but they were sold out to money.
He rejected the bride. The body. They were carnal Christians remember?
VP was carnal. He didn't want to submit to authority within the church. They held him accountable for his actions. They were faithful to the Lord.
Every teaching he sought out separated him from the Lord and His authority over us. Absent Christ--while the cat's away. . . . you get my drift. It was an actual rejection. . . . right down to who Jesus is. That was his crowning rejection. Although denying the Holy Spirit WHO--yes a WHO LOL convicts us of our sins was pretty bad.
How do we think he was able to use people so hurtfully--to abuse--to really spiritually maim in the name of God.
That takes some serious rejection of Christ's LOVE and authority. VP relegated Him to some bizarre freakish created being. Was the Jesus of TWI to be obeyed? How could He be--HE was absent. Even so, He was just like us, but with an extra dose of little hs.
Did we know how much the Lord desired us and was jealous over us? No, we were so frickin afraid of idolatry!!
Ingenious really.
VP was free from that intimate relationship. Free from being faithful to Him in all things--free from authority. He rejected it--and the Lord does not force Himself on us--we choose. That is how he was able to rape and steal--lie and cheat. VP said NO Thanks. Did the Lord ever correct him? It got worse--VP was the MOGFODT. He became what Jesus should be in a Christians life.
The thing that makes it down right evil is that VP knew the truth. He didn't just walk away from the church. . . no. . . He started his own ministry. He sought out things that allowed him to continue on sinning in the name of God.
I could get biblical and show you the verses about false teachers. . . what they do. . . . what it means, but you probably know better than I--you are a smart cookie.
What really ticks me off--more than anything--is all these lovely people, and there are so many in twi and especially ex-twi, who got tricked. They now struggle so to have a relationship with the Lord--whom they were taught to actually fear. Afraid of idolatry by putting the Lord in the rightful place in their hearts. Afraid of turning to Him instead of the Father or the MOG. Afraid of His NAME!!
How we missed that no man comes to the Father except by Him--I still don't get? How we missed that Jesus is God's revelation of Himself to us--beyond me? How we missed that the way we know God is through Jesus Christ?
We knew the bible, but see how we missed the most basic and now obvious things? It is because the whole thing is about Christ. God's final and forever revelation of Himself--He walked among us!! We will be with Him always. Gives one chills.
We were seriously lied to.
The other thing that really gets me very ANGRY is the gospel message. The GREATNESS of what was done for us on the cross. We NEVER heard it in TWI. I didn't hear it until years after I left. My ears were clogged with arrogance and mush from TWI. For me it took YEARS!! I had heard a completely enemic--watered down--carnal story in TWI--didn't save me--it made me self-righteous. But, you could not tell me--I was saved--I SIT.
I could go on, but as it is I am treading on thin ice here with some already--LOL
But I think you get my point. . .
VP was a false teacher who rejected Christ--He found teachings that justified this. . . Body not Bride. . . . .I sometimes think it is best to throw out the baby--the bathwater--the tub--the sink and everything else we collected from our time in TWI--but that is me--everyone is different.
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Oakspear
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Sunesis
I will respectfully disagree with some of you here. I believe The One body and the Bride are not the same.
We need only to compare the two groups and it becomes clear.
First, I believe the "mystery" revealed by risen Christ to Paul while in prison in Ephesians is the culmination of God's purpose of the ages.
I believe this age of the mystery, this age of Grace was unprophesied. It was not prophesised about in the Old Testament, nor Revelation. It was a secret, hidden from before the foundation of the world, but is now revealed to Paul. If it had been revealed Satan never, ever would have let Christ be crucified - never. He sealed his doom.
Its like two hills. The old testament prophet could see Christ coming and crucified on the top of one hill, and look and see the hill behind it with the "kingdom of God" and Christ as King in Glory, but could not see what was in the valley between the two hills. The valley is the mystery kept secret. The age of grace, us.
God uses a phrase "before the foundation of the world." From what I've read of it, its kind of like BC/AD to us. Its an important dividing line. Before the foundation of the world is Gen. 1:1 in its perfection in eternity. From, or since the foundation of the world is Gen 1:2 - the restoration of the earth after it became without form or void.
There were only two "beings" called from "before the foundation of the world." Christ, and us.
We were called in eternity.
Israel was called "from the foundation of the earth." They were not called in eternity.
This is two different callings.
So, here's my little comparison:
1. Israel in time: Called from, or since the foundation of the world (Gen 1:2)
Church in time: Called before the foundation of the world (Gen 1:1) - only Christ and us are
called and purposed "before" the foundation of the earth
2. Israel: Holy spirit upon Israel
Church: Holy spirit in us - we are sealed
3. Israel: Their sphere and dominion is the earth,
fulfilled in Rev. with the new Jerusalem
on earth, comes down from heaven
Church: We are seated in heavenlies our sphere is heaven
Jerusalem is not our promise or inheritance
4. Israel: Their eternity is in eternal, fleshly bodies on earth
such as Christ's resurrected body was - flesh and
bone
Church: Our eternity is as as a new, spiritual creation
5. Israel: Their sphere is earthly
Church: Our sphere is heavenly - we are seated in the heavenlies
6. Israel: They are promised "the Kingdom" on earth
Church: We are promised heaven
7. Israel: Messiah and Israel rule over mankind on earth
Church: We rule over and judge angels in the heavenlies
8. Israel: Israel is Christ's bride
Church: The church fills up Christ's body in the heavenlies
We are called to be a "new creation." Israel, is never called a "new creation" nor promised to be a "new creation."
Israel is now "lo ammi" (not my people). The covenant connected with Israel as a NATION and their LAND is held in abayance until we are taken out of the way.
When Israel rejected the prophets, the Messiah on earth who preached the Kingdom of God is at hand - it was here! It would have happened now if they had accepted Christ, and then, the last ditch effort by God of sending the 12 apostles to them to repent - it was still not too late, the Kingdom would have come - Israel rejected the offer and...
God goes to the Gentiles, stops the prophetic clock, and now, calls us and makes a new creation - us.
When we are gathered together, the prophetic clock will start up and continue again.
That is why Paul tells the believers in Thessalonians, they don't need to know about the signs and times - those are for Israel (after we are gathered), not for those of us in the age of grace. We are told to look for Christ, not the Antichrist. For Christ, not what Russia or the EU or Nero is doing.
But because Christians don't make this distinction between this unprophesied age and the OT times, they take the prophesies of the OT, of Christ in the Gospels (remember - he came ONLY to Israel in his ministry on earth - to call them to the Kingdom that was at hand) and apply these prophecies to themselves - which is not right, since we are living in an unprophesised time period.
The prophecies of the OT are fulfilled and completed in Revelation.
Thus, prophecy of the "end times" as many Christians are into today, though, while fascinating and wonderful to understand - do not apply to us. We are in an unprophesied time period.
As the church, the one body, the new creation - as a different species that will be revealed someday:
We are not Israel, who is the bride - they were never told they would be a "new creation."
You have two different groups, called out at two different times, with two different purposes in God's mind, with two different spheres of being and two different destinies.
We were called in eternity, we shall live in the heavenlies in eternity as a new creation - a new species, a new being that has never been seen or conceived of, except in the mind of God before Gen. 1:1 - conceived in eternity. Those are our promises. That is amazing grace.
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