I am also thinking LCM knew enough right and wrong from childhood to sneak and hide his sexual transgressions. And if he could simply read the Book he supposedly stood for, he could see what he should be doing.
When he took on the mantle, he didn't go, "Great, I am now in a postion to make the world/the ministry/my family a better place." Nope, he said, "Great, now I can get MINE!"
"You can't go beyond what you're taught" is a crock. We can. We are presented with life choices every day. LCM might have started out as a victim, but when he became a leader, he chose to perpetuate the abuse.
His sister used to post years ago saying what a sweetie he really was when they were kids...
Who doesn`t want to believe that they are God`s elect, that they are entitled to all of the perks and benefits...the thing is Ralf D, and others were offered the same line...they didn`t fall for it. Many made the tough choices when there were attempts to draw them into the con and they suffered the consequences for not buying into the whole mess.
What divides them? What keeps the victims from becoming victimizers? Call it character, spirit, whatever... we all have choices to make.
he was a victim of delusions of grandeur fed him by vpw. did it start earlier, I wonder? did his parents raise him to think he was more special than he really was? did they plant the seeds of narcissism that vpw fanned to full flame?
he had a choice. everyone makes them every day.
I was raised by a psychotic drug-using whore, who was who she was because of a personality disorder. I don't know what made her that way... maybe she was spoiled as a young child, only to have all the attention diverted from her when my grandfather fell gravely ill? or when a younger sibling had medical needs that took all the family resources? who knows.
all I know is that my childhood was painful and I grew up and came face to face with the necessity to change or continue to live in hell, torturing myself for a past I had no real control over. It was at that point I made a decision to change, to not parent like my mother did, and I have found that I'm not my mother. that decision in part led me to get involved in twi, because I was looking for health and wholeness and self-control. unfortunately twi did the opposite of what was promised, but after my divorce I came face to face with the fact that twi had turned me into a b!tch. at that point I could have hidden my head in the sand and maintained my "righteousness", but I did not. I was victimized by my mother, I was victimized by my ex and by leaders in twi, but I'm not their victim anymore. I severed ties to all of them. I will not let anyone do what they did to me again.
lcm undoubtedly been presented with scores of opportunity to wake up and he's chosen not to, as far as can be seen, so if he ever was a victim he hasn't been one for a long time. if he has changed, I welcome him to get on this bbs and start making apologies.
lcm undoubtedly been presented with scores of opportunity to wake up and he's chosen not to, as far as can be seen, so if he ever was a victim he hasn't been one for a long time. . . .
imo, martindale was and is an unrepentant, self-righteous, hopelessly self-deluded, serial sexual predator, immature, premature ejaculator, lost in an identity assigned him and accepted by him, from a horribly twisted, mean-spirited alcoholic narcissist, and perverted, serial sexual predator who suffered from paranoid delusions and serious sexual inadequacy issues.........by lying and with good legal representation, he avoided imprisonment, and lives comfortably off of the illicit income of a fringe, right-wing religious cult which owes its continuing interest-bearing existence to his legally arranged silence regarding the facts of its current operations and the history of its ill-gotten financial gains..........but........that's just my opinion!.....................peace.
Having spent some time looking at what lcm and vpw both said, and what others have said
about them, I HAVE concluded that's one diffrerence between vpw and lcm.
vpw set up his organization, and was fully aware that at points he was deceiving people- saying he got special
revelation, taking credit for the work of others, and that some of it was outright deception.
He had goals he wanted to accomplish, and had no hesitation about deceiving people whenever it
suited those goals.
lcm arrived right out of college, never having had time working a secular job or getting experience
"in the real world" outside school. vpw snowed lcm completely. vpw covered his own tracks with skill
because he KNEW what he was doing was wrong. lcm was twisted into vpw's image, and thought he
really wasn't doing wrong when he was doing wrong. So, he didn't cover his tracks so much- he saw
nothing wrong, and nothing to cover. That's one reason he was CAUGHT.
So, yes, on one level, lcm was a victim.
However, what he did with his indoctrination was his own decision.
When he got the big chair, he could have travelled around and dealt with people on a personal basis
for a while, getting a sense of what the members were like AROUND THE COUNTRY.
Instead, he insulated himself more and more. He also faced the realization he was not ready for the
job he was assigned to, by demanding oaths of loyalty from people and pulling the strings tighter.
So, he was victimized at one level, but he turned around and victimized others.
There's many things he could have done instead.
if vpw lived in his own world, did he really KNOW? His view of right and wrong could be a lot different than others, he simply could have understood what were acceptable and unacceptable social norms, and worked around them. lcm on the other hand, could have thought he shouldn't have to hide anything b/c he was god's best, had the truth, didn't need to bow to the realm of the unbeliever etc.(similar to what you said). How much vpw KNEW he was WRONG, probably changes with each person's perception of right and wrong. Maybe both these guys really believed everyone else is deluded. Can we know?
If the Board followed their usual double standard...
LCM likely had access to all sorts of media, books, radio, television, etc. That would have given any CURIOUS individual the opportunity to at least consider his ways. If nothing else, he owned a freakin' BIBLE! If he believed his own teachings, the Bible alone should have been enough to get him to reconsider.
Focusing only on his age, VP, TWI, etc. also ignores the ability of God to work in his heart to convict him.
If he was a victim, he has had ample opportunity to see the error of his ways.
He self-reports a good childhood, though with perhaps paternal pressure to "achieve" (thinking of the Fortune 500 alleged ability). Early Corps have said he was a nice guy.
So duped, perhaps. A victim of VPW.
And like all victims, with the opportunity to change. And not become a victimizer himself.
If he did have the decent background that he self-reports, he must have had some good stuff to fall back upon. Decent moral background. He said he had a church background; perhaps it was rather legalistic. He used to go on quite a lot about dogs returning to their vomit and I sometimes felt that he was fighting a return back to some place he wasn't comfortable with - but perhaps he was really fighting to stay where he was (!).
He also used to say that people on staff would come up to him and say things that would help him. He mentioned something about that in the "Leaders Tapes" and said similar remarks at Corps Night. So he had ample opportunity to consider his ways and to depart from them. Instead, he dismissed and disgraced those who really confronted him. Conscience seared with a hot iron...
Potato - well done for escaping the background that you started life with. Seeing it for what it was, and actively choosing to do something different in a positive way. That's a choice available to any victim.
Thousands of people fell for the paranoia of being constantly chased by devil spirits and thousands in and out of twi still cling to those ideas. vpw gave them a "special" view of the world. Geer and others were just like lcm, no? How many people would have been similar to him had they been thrust into his position? How many people are there who would have made the same decisions he did versus how many who wouldn't have?
At best, I view him as a dim witted opportunist. An otherwise dull, "jock" and barely educated moron who seeing the vicster's endorsement, weighed the alternatives, and chose to run with the endorsement..
other than that, he may have been a "nice guy"..
notice I did not say "athelete". There's a big difference between a second rate jock and athelete..
I am also thinking LCM knew enough right and wrong from childhood to sneak and hide his sexual transgressions. And if he could simply read the Book he supposedly stood for, he could see what he should be doing.
When he took on the mantle, he didn't go, "Great, I am now in a postion to make the world/the ministry/my family a better place." Nope, he said, "Great, now I can get MINE!"
"You can't go beyond what you're taught" is a crock. We can. We are presented with life choices every day. LCM might have started out as a victim, but when he became a leader, he chose to perpetuate the abuse.
there's still thousands of folks just like him then. They chose to promote what they don't understand as if they did. They had a choice. Or their parents failed . . . Or people are just robots, easy to reprogram . . .
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Bolshevik
vpw was not a modern-day Paul equivalent (the Christian version, we'll go with), but yes, an apprentice-like attitude would be shared, for many at least. aspiring to the standard of scripture, th
Bolshevik
I'm not sure what you mean. How are they different?
potato
some were abusers well before 18, and some who've left still are abusers, so what? and sure, as far as we went along with the witchhunts and unreasonable expectations, as far as we carried out orders
WordWolf
Having spent some time looking at what lcm and vpw both said, and what others have said
about them, I HAVE concluded that's one diffrerence between vpw and lcm.
vpw set up his organization, and was fully aware that at points he was deceiving people- saying he got special
revelation, taking credit for the work of others, and that some of it was outright deception.
He had goals he wanted to accomplish, and had no hesitation about deceiving people whenever it
suited those goals.
lcm arrived right out of college, never having had time working a secular job or getting experience
"in the real world" outside school. vpw snowed lcm completely. vpw covered his own tracks with skill
because he KNEW what he was doing was wrong. lcm was twisted into vpw's image, and thought he
really wasn't doing wrong when he was doing wrong. So, he didn't cover his tracks so much- he saw
nothing wrong, and nothing to cover. That's one reason he was CAUGHT.
So, yes, on one level, lcm was a victim.
However, what he did with his indoctrination was his own decision.
When he got the big chair, he could have travelled around and dealt with people on a personal basis
for a while, getting a sense of what the members were like AROUND THE COUNTRY.
Instead, he insulated himself more and more. He also faced the realization he was not ready for the
job he was assigned to, by demanding oaths of loyalty from people and pulling the strings tighter.
So, he was victimized at one level, but he turned around and victimized others.
There's many things he could have done instead.
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shazdancer
I am also thinking LCM knew enough right and wrong from childhood to sneak and hide his sexual transgressions. And if he could simply read the Book he supposedly stood for, he could see what he should be doing.
When he took on the mantle, he didn't go, "Great, I am now in a postion to make the world/the ministry/my family a better place." Nope, he said, "Great, now I can get MINE!"
"You can't go beyond what you're taught" is a crock. We can. We are presented with life choices every day. LCM might have started out as a victim, but when he became a leader, he chose to perpetuate the abuse.
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rascal
Absolutely Shaz...
His sister used to post years ago saying what a sweetie he really was when they were kids...
Who doesn`t want to believe that they are God`s elect, that they are entitled to all of the perks and benefits...the thing is Ralf D, and others were offered the same line...they didn`t fall for it. Many made the tough choices when there were attempts to draw them into the con and they suffered the consequences for not buying into the whole mess.
What divides them? What keeps the victims from becoming victimizers? Call it character, spirit, whatever... we all have choices to make.
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potato
he was a victim of delusions of grandeur fed him by vpw. did it start earlier, I wonder? did his parents raise him to think he was more special than he really was? did they plant the seeds of narcissism that vpw fanned to full flame?
he had a choice. everyone makes them every day.
I was raised by a psychotic drug-using whore, who was who she was because of a personality disorder. I don't know what made her that way... maybe she was spoiled as a young child, only to have all the attention diverted from her when my grandfather fell gravely ill? or when a younger sibling had medical needs that took all the family resources? who knows.
all I know is that my childhood was painful and I grew up and came face to face with the necessity to change or continue to live in hell, torturing myself for a past I had no real control over. It was at that point I made a decision to change, to not parent like my mother did, and I have found that I'm not my mother. that decision in part led me to get involved in twi, because I was looking for health and wholeness and self-control. unfortunately twi did the opposite of what was promised, but after my divorce I came face to face with the fact that twi had turned me into a b!tch. at that point I could have hidden my head in the sand and maintained my "righteousness", but I did not. I was victimized by my mother, I was victimized by my ex and by leaders in twi, but I'm not their victim anymore. I severed ties to all of them. I will not let anyone do what they did to me again.
lcm undoubtedly been presented with scores of opportunity to wake up and he's chosen not to, as far as can be seen, so if he ever was a victim he hasn't been one for a long time. if he has changed, I welcome him to get on this bbs and start making apologies.
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Bolshevik
and the thousands of people who support him.
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DontWorryBeHappy
imo, martindale was and is an unrepentant, self-righteous, hopelessly self-deluded, serial sexual predator, immature, premature ejaculator, lost in an identity assigned him and accepted by him, from a horribly twisted, mean-spirited alcoholic narcissist, and perverted, serial sexual predator who suffered from paranoid delusions and serious sexual inadequacy issues.........by lying and with good legal representation, he avoided imprisonment, and lives comfortably off of the illicit income of a fringe, right-wing religious cult which owes its continuing interest-bearing existence to his legally arranged silence regarding the facts of its current operations and the history of its ill-gotten financial gains..........but........that's just my opinion!.....................peace.
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waysider
And he didn't get as many cool Harleys as PeePee Wierwille, either.
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Bolshevik
he lives comfortably off of illicit income?
I won't ask how one knows that another man is a premature ejaculator. . .
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waysider
It's a generic insult---shuckin' and jivin'
Kinda like "Yo Mama wears Army boots!"
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Bolshevik
yes ha ha
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Bolshevik
if vpw lived in his own world, did he really KNOW? His view of right and wrong could be a lot different than others, he simply could have understood what were acceptable and unacceptable social norms, and worked around them. lcm on the other hand, could have thought he shouldn't have to hide anything b/c he was god's best, had the truth, didn't need to bow to the realm of the unbeliever etc.(similar to what you said). How much vpw KNEW he was WRONG, probably changes with each person's perception of right and wrong. Maybe both these guys really believed everyone else is deluded. Can we know?
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JustThinking
If the Board followed their usual double standard...
LCM likely had access to all sorts of media, books, radio, television, etc. That would have given any CURIOUS individual the opportunity to at least consider his ways. If nothing else, he owned a freakin' BIBLE! If he believed his own teachings, the Bible alone should have been enough to get him to reconsider.
Focusing only on his age, VP, TWI, etc. also ignores the ability of God to work in his heart to convict him.
Just my .02.
JT
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Bolshevik
Does God convict everyone for everything, or just certain people, for certain things?
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Twinky
If he was a victim, he has had ample opportunity to see the error of his ways.
He self-reports a good childhood, though with perhaps paternal pressure to "achieve" (thinking of the Fortune 500 alleged ability). Early Corps have said he was a nice guy.
So duped, perhaps. A victim of VPW.
And like all victims, with the opportunity to change. And not become a victimizer himself.
If he did have the decent background that he self-reports, he must have had some good stuff to fall back upon. Decent moral background. He said he had a church background; perhaps it was rather legalistic. He used to go on quite a lot about dogs returning to their vomit and I sometimes felt that he was fighting a return back to some place he wasn't comfortable with - but perhaps he was really fighting to stay where he was (!).
He also used to say that people on staff would come up to him and say things that would help him. He mentioned something about that in the "Leaders Tapes" and said similar remarks at Corps Night. So he had ample opportunity to consider his ways and to depart from them. Instead, he dismissed and disgraced those who really confronted him. Conscience seared with a hot iron...
Potato - well done for escaping the background that you started life with.
Seeing it for what it was, and actively choosing to do something different in a positive way. That's a choice available to any victim.
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Bolshevik
Thousands of people fell for the paranoia of being constantly chased by devil spirits and thousands in and out of twi still cling to those ideas. vpw gave them a "special" view of the world. Geer and others were just like lcm, no? How many people would have been similar to him had they been thrust into his position? How many people are there who would have made the same decisions he did versus how many who wouldn't have?
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rascal
Don`t know, that was some mighty powerful kool aid we were drinking.
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Bolshevik
too bad we can't bottle it all up and shoot it into the sun
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Ham
just a thought..
if it were not for herr vicster, loy wouldn't have had the chance to even leap once in tight tights..
I mean.. I think it took an overbearing charismatic personality to even get people to follow loy in the first place..
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RumRunner
I give the Loyster the same leeway I give Vic the predator - that would be precisely 0.0
Don't like it? Take away my birthday.
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Ham
At best, I view him as a dim witted opportunist. An otherwise dull, "jock" and barely educated moron who seeing the vicster's endorsement, weighed the alternatives, and chose to run with the endorsement..
other than that, he may have been a "nice guy"..
notice I did not say "athelete". There's a big difference between a second rate jock and athelete..
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Bolshevik
vic coulda pointed at any ole joe, and thousands would have followed to this day.
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Bolshevik
Now, didn't lcm mean well? He just wanted to serve God and be his best.
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WordWolf
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Bolshevik
there's still thousands of folks just like him then. They chose to promote what they don't understand as if they did. They had a choice. Or their parents failed . . . Or people are just robots, easy to reprogram . . .
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