Brainfihed (((Hugs)))) What a pot of dang they were dishing out... I am so sorry you were subjected to this kind of lying .... that some one made up to intimidate people.
We heard the Grease spot thing but what you are talking about is on so much of a smellier level.
i keep reading about how many people were told they would be "greasespots by midnight" if they left twi and i keep thinking about how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives and i know that taking my chances of being killed by the "adversary" was less dangerous than staying in twi and being killed because of that insanity. there are many kinds of real death and one is that instant death that everybody is afraid of but another is a slow death that kills the soul first and leaves the body with chronic problems that erode the strength and the life. getting beaten all the time may not have killed me but it caused chronic problems that will kill me so what does it matter when i die if i die because of the beatings? when i die it won't be because i left twi and became a "greasespot" because the "adversary" got me, but because i couldn't get out soon enough and twi insanity got me.
I am not sure what was said after I left. . . but, I never heard anyone say that the bible gave parents the right to kill a disobedient spouse or child. That would have penetrated my foggy brain. I have always been disgusted and shook about the practice of female infanticide in rural parts of China and India. . . . even when I was in TWI. I would have taken note of that.
Martindale did say something about . . . . if it were old testament times. . . and homosexuals. I can imagine it was not a leap for him to include cop-outs or disobedient "believers". It wouldn't have been worse than swatting a fly to him. . . wasn't there even a song?
The "adversary" was always nipping at our heels. . . typical TWI. . . giving the devil control over the power of life and death while totally discounting God's role and purview in creation.
Hmm, we had more faith in Satan's ability than God's. That is something to consider if we dare. Maybe that is part of the soul killing you mention. . . . or part of the cause of beatings and cruelty. We had some really obsessive traits in TWI. . . . we did train our eyes on evil.
I am not sure what was said after I left. . . but, I never heard anyone say that the bible gave parents the right to kill a disobedient spouse or child. That would have penetrated my foggy brain. I have always been disgusted and shook about the practice of female infanticide in rural parts of China and India. . . . even when I was in TWI. I would have taken note of that.
Martindale did say something about . . . . if it were old testament times. . . and homosexuals. I can imagine it was not a leap for him to include cop-outs or disobedient "believers". It wouldn't have been worse than swatting a fly to him. . . wasn't there even a song?
The "adversary" was always nipping at our heels. . . typical TWI. . . giving the devil control over the power of life and death while totally discounting God's role and purview in creation.
Hmm, we had more faith in Satan's ability than God's. That is something to consider if we dare. Maybe that is part of the soul killing you mention. . . . or part of the cause of beatings and cruelty. We had some really obsessive traits in TWI. . . . we did train our eyes on evil.
Nobody pulled that when I was in, either, but they did slowly work their way there after I left.
Children, remember, were an inconvenience in twi- they did not contribute, and they used up time and money the parents
could instead hand over to twi. So, there were things eventually like how, if civilization broke down (the conspiracy
theories), the kids were expendable because the parents, if alive, could have more children.
There were also leaders who told parents how to "take care" of their children. If the child didn't listen the first
few times, then you were to whallop him with a 2 x 4. At least they were consistent- some of them whalloped their
OWN SMALL CHILDREN for failing to do EXACTLY as they were told. Some parents were told to leave a disobedient child
out in the woods and abandon them for life.
Here's a pair of threads where we discussed the disposability of children. It started with vpw, of course,
who recommended the same techniques for training hunting dogs as for CHILDREN-
and reputable sources said these techniques are wrong for training DOGS!
Disobeient children were stoned in the old Testament. Lcm taught it more than once and I heard it through out the nineties.
There is a provision in the law for disobedient children to be taken to the elders and stoned. . . . are there accounts of this ever being carried out?
Sadly, I have no problem believing this was taught as justifiable behavior.
i keep reading about how many people were told they would be "greasespots by midnight" if they left twi and i keep thinking about how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives and i know that taking my chances of being killed by the "adversary" was less dangerous than staying in twi and being killed because of that insanity. there are many kinds of real death and one is that instant death that everybody is afraid of but another is a slow death that kills the soul first and leaves the body with chronic problems that erode the strength and the life. getting beaten all the time may not have killed me but it caused chronic problems that will kill me so what does it matter when i die if i die because of the beatings? when i die it won't be because i left twi and became a "greasespot" because the "adversary" got me, but because i couldn't get out soon enough and twi insanity got me.
Brainfixed - I am so sorry for what you were put through. Some parents (and nearly all childless people) have this notion that children can somehow be "trained" to do or be anything someone wants them to be. And some parents have a way of doing that, but it never happens through abuse. You are smart enough to have figured that out. What you might have to figure out now is how to turn this indescribable evil into good. I can't tell you how to do that, because everyone has his/her own way. What helped me was to realize that my parents didn't lay awake at night thinking of ways to f**k us up. I had to come to the conclusion that what they did was the best way they knew how to deal with life.
Some of us seem to be far more outwardly traumatized by what happens in our lives, while some of us do and feel things not realizing that what we are doing or feeling is a direct result of what happened to us.
TWI made use of emotional blackmail to keep people in line. Telling people they'll be greasespots by midnight is emotional blackmail. Holding the "adversary" over your head is emotional blackmail. Mark and avoiding people is emotional blackmail. Pitting children against their parents is emotional blackmail. Susan Forward wrote a very good (and easy to read) book on the subject.
... another is a slow death that kills the soul first and leaves the body with chronic problems that erode the strength and the life. getting beaten all the time may not have killed me but it caused chronic problems that will kill me so what does it matter when i die if i die because of the beatings? when i die it won't be because i left twi and became a "greasespot" because the "adversary" got me, but because i couldn't get out soon enough and twi insanity got me.
Brainfixed, I don't know what injuries (physical or mental) you suffered, but suffer you did. I don't want to sound trite, but you can probably overcome a lot of chronic problems. You are already learning to think better and more clearly (in fact - getting a sound mind, LOL), and that will give health and strength to your whole body. TWI has already damaged your early years and sucked the life out of them. Don't give them the satisfaction of ruining your later years or expecting your life to be foreshortened. Live long and happy, and prove them wrong!
TWI insanity IS of the "adversary." So many of their pronouncements are insane.
thanks everybody for your kindness and care and concern. i'm working through things and being here is a big part of that working through it all. i didn't say it straight out because the emotion of it all spilled over, but what i was trynig to say is that the make believe "adversary" that twi was always telling us was out to get us was nothing but smoke and mirrors to keep us from looking at the reality of twi and what it was doing to destroy our lives.
I too am very distressed - to say the least - to read this topic and my heart goes out to you, Brainfixed. This is a shocking thing you said, "how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives."
I joined twi in 1970 and left in 1987. Never did I hear this. It's an understatement to say this is a hideous and dangerous belief. And twi said it was Christian??!!!
I don't remember any direct teachings on stoning annoying kids. I was always aware of the verses on it for some reason, and I know that the thinking of "we should be thankful we're not going to be stoned" was not only in my mind, but in other wayfer kids' minds as well.
Lots of doctrine that was disseminated through the organization was deliberately distanced from its source, in my opinion. Like money laundering ideas.
course, a problem with the "concept laundering" idea is that assumes this was all planned, intended with a previous coherent thoughts. Maybe vpw did, but his followers were just too random in their acts and memories. If they say they don't remember saying something, I believe them. The stank and file are just that dumb.
yeah, then they can sit back and say, "Well, we never taught you that, don't accuse us because of your wrong thinking."
And does it really matter if it doesn't appear on an SNS tape or in a class? If was being repeated throughout the organization, they had an obligation to be aware of what was being promoted and a responsibility to correct it if it was in error.
I think it was in 1982 when I became aware of beliefs that were being circulated around corpse that were not "available" to the rank and file twig member, such as myself. These things were not written down, nor were they circulated in Sunday tapes. I was told that one had to be a corpse member to learn these things. Later I discovered that some of this stuff didn't even make it to all corpse.
Perhaps there was a corpse within the corpse and some of the super-secret stuff leaked out by mistake.
The stoning disobedient children in the OT was used more as a fear tactic for those with disobedient children. It's not they taught you should kill disobedient children. It was more of a "God thinks this about disobedient children." Sheesh....nobody could be human in TWI. I think God loves our humanness, or He wouldn't have made us human.
Thankfully I became more humane and humanitarian after leaving TWI. I like myself better for it.
Prior to 2005 in THIS country people have been executed for crimes committed while teenagers. It was only with the Supreme Court Ruling Roper v Simmons did the death penalty for juveniles become cruel and unusual punishment.
There are no accounts of the stoning of teens ever being carried out in the bible (pretty sure) and you would be hard pressed to find one in Jewish history. . . children WERE killed during the holocaust though. TWI probably would argue this point.
TWI should have used the more traditional Boogey Man or the state of Texas to scare their kids. It would have had more teeth.
The stoning disobedient children in the OT was used more as a fear tactic for those with disobedient children. It's not they taught you should kill disobedient children. It was more of a "God thinks this about disobedient children." Sheesh....nobody could be human in TWI. I think God loves our humanness, or He wouldn't have made us human.
Thankfully I became more humane and humanitarian after leaving TWI. I like myself better for it.
Of course, they never actually READ THE PASSAGE that said so.....
This had nothing to do with MINORS- this was about ADULT offspring ("children"):
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (KJV)
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (NASB)
18"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
19then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
20"They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
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leafytwiglet
Brainfihed (((Hugs)))) What a pot of dang they were dishing out... I am so sorry you were subjected to this kind of lying .... that some one made up to intimidate people.
We heard the Grease spot thing but what you are talking about is on so much of a smellier level.
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geisha779
I am not sure what was said after I left. . . but, I never heard anyone say that the bible gave parents the right to kill a disobedient spouse or child. That would have penetrated my foggy brain. I have always been disgusted and shook about the practice of female infanticide in rural parts of China and India. . . . even when I was in TWI. I would have taken note of that.
Martindale did say something about . . . . if it were old testament times. . . and homosexuals. I can imagine it was not a leap for him to include cop-outs or disobedient "believers". It wouldn't have been worse than swatting a fly to him. . . wasn't there even a song?
The "adversary" was always nipping at our heels. . . typical TWI. . . giving the devil control over the power of life and death while totally discounting God's role and purview in creation.
Hmm, we had more faith in Satan's ability than God's. That is something to consider if we dare. Maybe that is part of the soul killing you mention. . . . or part of the cause of beatings and cruelty. We had some really obsessive traits in TWI. . . . we did train our eyes on evil.
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WordWolf
Nobody pulled that when I was in, either, but they did slowly work their way there after I left.
Children, remember, were an inconvenience in twi- they did not contribute, and they used up time and money the parents
could instead hand over to twi. So, there were things eventually like how, if civilization broke down (the conspiracy
theories), the kids were expendable because the parents, if alive, could have more children.
There were also leaders who told parents how to "take care" of their children. If the child didn't listen the first
few times, then you were to whallop him with a 2 x 4. At least they were consistent- some of them whalloped their
OWN SMALL CHILDREN for failing to do EXACTLY as they were told. Some parents were told to leave a disobedient child
out in the woods and abandon them for life.
Here's a pair of threads where we discussed the disposability of children. It started with vpw, of course,
who recommended the same techniques for training hunting dogs as for CHILDREN-
and reputable sources said these techniques are wrong for training DOGS!
Hunt Close!
close__fromsearch__1entry59312
Child abuse in twi
abuse__fromsearch__1entry146773
Child abuse in the way
abuse__fromsearch__1entry295965
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Bramble
Disobeient children were stoned in the old Testament. Lcm taught it more than once and I heard it through out the nineties.
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geisha779
There is a provision in the law for disobedient children to be taken to the elders and stoned. . . . are there accounts of this ever being carried out?
Sadly, I have no problem believing this was taught as justifiable behavior.
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Tzaia
Brainfixed - I am so sorry for what you were put through. Some parents (and nearly all childless people) have this notion that children can somehow be "trained" to do or be anything someone wants them to be. And some parents have a way of doing that, but it never happens through abuse. You are smart enough to have figured that out. What you might have to figure out now is how to turn this indescribable evil into good. I can't tell you how to do that, because everyone has his/her own way. What helped me was to realize that my parents didn't lay awake at night thinking of ways to f**k us up. I had to come to the conclusion that what they did was the best way they knew how to deal with life.
Some of us seem to be far more outwardly traumatized by what happens in our lives, while some of us do and feel things not realizing that what we are doing or feeling is a direct result of what happened to us.
TWI made use of emotional blackmail to keep people in line. Telling people they'll be greasespots by midnight is emotional blackmail. Holding the "adversary" over your head is emotional blackmail. Mark and avoiding people is emotional blackmail. Pitting children against their parents is emotional blackmail. Susan Forward wrote a very good (and easy to read) book on the subject.
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Twinky
Brainfixed, I don't know what injuries (physical or mental) you suffered, but suffer you did. I don't want to sound trite, but you can probably overcome a lot of chronic problems. You are already learning to think better and more clearly (in fact - getting a sound mind, LOL), and that will give health and strength to your whole body. TWI has already damaged your early years and sucked the life out of them. Don't give them the satisfaction of ruining your later years or expecting your life to be foreshortened. Live long and happy, and prove them wrong!
TWI insanity IS of the "adversary." So many of their pronouncements are insane.
Stay well, be happy
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brainfixed
thanks everybody for your kindness and care and concern. i'm working through things and being here is a big part of that working through it all. i didn't say it straight out because the emotion of it all spilled over, but what i was trynig to say is that the make believe "adversary" that twi was always telling us was out to get us was nothing but smoke and mirrors to keep us from looking at the reality of twi and what it was doing to destroy our lives.
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penworks
I too am very distressed - to say the least - to read this topic and my heart goes out to you, Brainfixed. This is a shocking thing you said, "how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives."
I joined twi in 1970 and left in 1987. Never did I hear this. It's an understatement to say this is a hideous and dangerous belief. And twi said it was Christian??!!!
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Bolshevik
I don't remember any direct teachings on stoning annoying kids. I was always aware of the verses on it for some reason, and I know that the thinking of "we should be thankful we're not going to be stoned" was not only in my mind, but in other wayfer kids' minds as well.
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waysider
Lots of doctrine that was disseminated through the organization was deliberately distanced from its source, in my opinion. Like money laundering ideas.
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Bolshevik
yeah, then they can sit back and say, "Well, we never taught you that, don't accuse us because of your wrong thinking."
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Bolshevik
course, a problem with the "concept laundering" idea is that assumes this was all planned, intended with a previous coherent thoughts. Maybe vpw did, but his followers were just too random in their acts and memories. If they say they don't remember saying something, I believe them. The stank and file are just that dumb.
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waysider
And does it really matter if it doesn't appear on an SNS tape or in a class? If was being repeated throughout the organization, they had an obligation to be aware of what was being promoted and a responsibility to correct it if it was in error.
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Bolshevik
What matters is the Written Word, Waysider.
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waysider
Or do you mean what they DECLARE to be The Written Word?
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Bolshevik
For that particular day, time and hour . . . errr . . . for that uncomfortable situation they need to talk a way out of . . .
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Tzaia
I think it was in 1982 when I became aware of beliefs that were being circulated around corpse that were not "available" to the rank and file twig member, such as myself. These things were not written down, nor were they circulated in Sunday tapes. I was told that one had to be a corpse member to learn these things. Later I discovered that some of this stuff didn't even make it to all corpse.
Perhaps there was a corpse within the corpse and some of the super-secret stuff leaked out by mistake.
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Bolshevik
you could also have mavericks and stank and file sitting around kitchen tables coming up will all sorts of drivel
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Nottawayfer
The stoning disobedient children in the OT was used more as a fear tactic for those with disobedient children. It's not they taught you should kill disobedient children. It was more of a "God thinks this about disobedient children." Sheesh....nobody could be human in TWI. I think God loves our humanness, or He wouldn't have made us human.
Thankfully I became more humane and humanitarian after leaving TWI. I like myself better for it.
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geisha779
Prior to 2005 in THIS country people have been executed for crimes committed while teenagers. It was only with the Supreme Court Ruling Roper v Simmons did the death penalty for juveniles become cruel and unusual punishment.
There are no accounts of the stoning of teens ever being carried out in the bible (pretty sure) and you would be hard pressed to find one in Jewish history. . . children WERE killed during the holocaust though. TWI probably would argue this point.
TWI should have used the more traditional Boogey Man or the state of Texas to scare their kids. It would have had more teeth.
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WordWolf
Of course, they never actually READ THE PASSAGE that said so.....
This had nothing to do with MINORS- this was about ADULT offspring ("children"):
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (KJV)
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (NASB)
18"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
19then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
20"They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
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Bolshevik
I still believe if leadership told you guys to stone me, it would have been done.
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waysider
I really think I can say with great confidence that I would not have followed any such orders.
Maybe I left TWI before it got to this point.
I don't know.
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