Hey, I'm gonna think on this and get back to you. I agree, it's very interesting. Biblically speaking, Jesus told his disciples that whoever would be greatest among them would be the greatest servant, but we sure don't see that in the groups you mentioned, Jeff, or a whole lot of others. It makes me nauseated when I see these young guys emulating the Rev. Whozits because they think he is The Man.
I'm all for being a man, maybe even someone that my baby, my son, or maybe even a few others will think,"A good man" about someday
Jeff, those of us, such as myself and of course your son, do know that you are a good man!
Are you referring to how men were thought and referred to as Men of God in TWI, RiverRoad Fellowship and others?
For me, at least, I was to believe that men stood in God's stead, therefore were to lead their wives, families, fellowship, community.
As a strong women, of course, it never really fit me, even if taught to defer to ministers and "men of God" when necessary in the same form as I was to defer to other elders like my grandma or a teacher.
But, agreed, it was tweaked and manipulated from the scripture(s) to cause men to lord over others with that abuse of power 'cuz they could.
I've never been a chest thumpin', "Do as I say!" kind of guy.
I'm not sure I would know how to really go about it if I wanted to.
There was a lot of pressure put on the men to live up to that stereotype in TWI.
If, as a man, you were hopeful of someday being entrusted with a leadership position, it was expected of you to "Take Charge!" This caused a lot of unnecessary stress and strife in marriages. I know it did in mine. I think much of this nonsense started to become widespread across the ministry at about the same time that CF&S was released. I could be wrong. That's just my personal observation.
edit:
And then there were women who lamented, "Why can't my husband be a REAL man like MOGGIE So&So?" It was very twisted and had little, if anything, to do with what a marriage should really be. But, then again, consider the source.
You know, when you look at something, you also look at what it is NOT.
Look at VPW (or Barnard) - and you will see what being a real man IS NOT.
Hmm...have you read about this guy Jesus? He sorta liked women and stood up for them and protected them. He had these close friends Mary and Martha. Women liked him. In fact, women (or at least one woman) threw themselves at his feet. He treated them with respect. He broke with tradition to treat them with respect (Samaritan woman). No suggestion he was trying to get into their knickers. No suggestion he had physical needs that needed "servicing."
Oh, and by the way, he refused to allow people to "worship" (hero worship) him, idolize him, and he didn't threaten others with violence, knives, or other weapons. He didn't carry a gun for "protection."
Not sure if I'm thinking in the same vein as you Jeff – but I changed "man worship" to "hero worship", as another angle on your topic or maybe it's just what popped into my head after reading this thread. So anyway – here's my 2 cents - but it may be in a foreign currency.
Back in the day, my attitude toward certain leaders in TWI may have been a lot like hero worship - looking expectantly toward someone who I deem superior to myself – superior in character, capabilities, accomplishments, etc. These people [like vp & LCM] didn't actually possess these qualities & qualifications – it was just my perception of them – a faulty viewpoint that was subliminally suggested throughout TWI.
Thinking about the idea of heroes and how "the hero" is usually the central figure in a story – I would say that pretty much sums up the role of vp & LCM while I was in TWI. Each acting president took the place of the "absent Christ" as far as I'm concerned. Teachings never focused on what Jesus did in the gospels or abstracting what would Jesus do in present-day scenarios. It was learning how to manifest power via vp's foundational & advanced classes. Heck, LCM reinforced the hero worship thing with his "vp & me" video I saw in the Corps.
We looked to the "heroes" – the big dogs of TWI, to interpret the Bible for us and to show us the correct application and they didn't stop at that – their influence grew more powerful over the folks who got more committed to the ministry. If you've ever went through any of TWI's programs you know how it gave leaders a free pass to stick their nose in every aspect of your life.
So in this hero worship we relinquished the power to shape our own destiny.
And thinking about hero worship, TWI, and where God fit into this picture. It's not that we didn't acknowledge a certain place for God in our lives - it's just that we usually wound up allotting Him a very small place. TWI heroes loomed so large in the thought-life of followers they eclipsed a clear "view" of God.
IMO he's the best of all possible role models Twinky. :)
Hero Worship might well have been another name for this thread T-bone. But I guess I went with Man Worship because to me it seems to get to the root of it in a few of the more gritty categories. For instance even though I never took the CF & S class I fairly recently read how Wierwille put down women in regards to some very, very nasty sexual views that I'm ashamed to elucidate right now.
Man-worship just seems a little more inclusive because of the rampant sexual and psychological abuse in The Way International to me. But to me and only IMO I think Hero Worship runs a very close second and may even be it's own thread I guess because it may tweek things just enough to bring out some different points. :)
Part of the problem comes from some folks' need to be led and others' need to lead. Sometimes the need or desire to lead morphs into a desire to dominate. Those who want to be led often just don't want to think.
Maybe there's a critical mass where informal groups turn into organizations. Not sure, got to give it more thought.
In the loosely affiliated bunch of people who I associate with for spiritual/philosophical reasons, there is no permanent leader. Several people open their homes for religious services, and the host often "leads" the services, but doesn't dictate to others how to run a ceremony when they do it. There are people who I look to as "teachers" in certain areas, but these people make no attempt to tell me what to do, nor do I expect them to; they're just sources of information. Many of the local people that I associate with have "longsuits" in some areas that I respect and defer to and I have "longsuits" that others defer to.
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Watered Garden
Hey, I'm gonna think on this and get back to you. I agree, it's very interesting. Biblically speaking, Jesus told his disciples that whoever would be greatest among them would be the greatest servant, but we sure don't see that in the groups you mentioned, Jeff, or a whole lot of others. It makes me nauseated when I see these young guys emulating the Rev. Whozits because they think he is The Man.
More later...
WG
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Shellon
Jeff, those of us, such as myself and of course your son, do know that you are a good man!
Are you referring to how men were thought and referred to as Men of God in TWI, RiverRoad Fellowship and others?
For me, at least, I was to believe that men stood in God's stead, therefore were to lead their wives, families, fellowship, community.
As a strong women, of course, it never really fit me, even if taught to defer to ministers and "men of God" when necessary in the same form as I was to defer to other elders like my grandma or a teacher.
But, agreed, it was tweaked and manipulated from the scripture(s) to cause men to lord over others with that abuse of power 'cuz they could.
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waysider
I've never been a chest thumpin', "Do as I say!" kind of guy.
I'm not sure I would know how to really go about it if I wanted to.
There was a lot of pressure put on the men to live up to that stereotype in TWI.
If, as a man, you were hopeful of someday being entrusted with a leadership position, it was expected of you to "Take Charge!" This caused a lot of unnecessary stress and strife in marriages. I know it did in mine. I think much of this nonsense started to become widespread across the ministry at about the same time that CF&S was released. I could be wrong. That's just my personal observation.
edit:
And then there were women who lamented, "Why can't my husband be a REAL man like MOGGIE So&So?" It was very twisted and had little, if anything, to do with what a marriage should really be. But, then again, consider the source.
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Twinky
You know, when you look at something, you also look at what it is NOT.
Look at VPW (or Barnard) - and you will see what being a real man IS NOT.
Hmm...have you read about this guy Jesus? He sorta liked women and stood up for them and protected them. He had these close friends Mary and Martha. Women liked him. In fact, women (or at least one woman) threw themselves at his feet. He treated them with respect. He broke with tradition to treat them with respect (Samaritan woman). No suggestion he was trying to get into their knickers. No suggestion he had physical needs that needed "servicing."
Oh, and by the way, he refused to allow people to "worship" (hero worship) him, idolize him, and he didn't threaten others with violence, knives, or other weapons. He didn't carry a gun for "protection."
He might be a better role model for you, Jeff.
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T-Bone
Not sure if I'm thinking in the same vein as you Jeff – but I changed "man worship" to "hero worship", as another angle on your topic or maybe it's just what popped into my head after reading this thread. So anyway – here's my 2 cents - but it may be in a foreign currency.
Back in the day, my attitude toward certain leaders in TWI may have been a lot like hero worship - looking expectantly toward someone who I deem superior to myself – superior in character, capabilities, accomplishments, etc. These people [like vp & LCM] didn't actually possess these qualities & qualifications – it was just my perception of them – a faulty viewpoint that was subliminally suggested throughout TWI.
Thinking about the idea of heroes and how "the hero" is usually the central figure in a story – I would say that pretty much sums up the role of vp & LCM while I was in TWI. Each acting president took the place of the "absent Christ" as far as I'm concerned. Teachings never focused on what Jesus did in the gospels or abstracting what would Jesus do in present-day scenarios. It was learning how to manifest power via vp's foundational & advanced classes. Heck, LCM reinforced the hero worship thing with his "vp & me" video I saw in the Corps.
We looked to the "heroes" – the big dogs of TWI, to interpret the Bible for us and to show us the correct application and they didn't stop at that – their influence grew more powerful over the folks who got more committed to the ministry. If you've ever went through any of TWI's programs you know how it gave leaders a free pass to stick their nose in every aspect of your life.
So in this hero worship we relinquished the power to shape our own destiny.
And thinking about hero worship, TWI, and where God fit into this picture. It's not that we didn't acknowledge a certain place for God in our lives - it's just that we usually wound up allotting Him a very small place. TWI heroes loomed so large in the thought-life of followers they eclipsed a clear "view" of God.
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JeffSjo
IMO he's the best of all possible role models Twinky. :)
Hero Worship might well have been another name for this thread T-bone. But I guess I went with Man Worship because to me it seems to get to the root of it in a few of the more gritty categories. For instance even though I never took the CF & S class I fairly recently read how Wierwille put down women in regards to some very, very nasty sexual views that I'm ashamed to elucidate right now.
Man-worship just seems a little more inclusive because of the rampant sexual and psychological abuse in The Way International to me. But to me and only IMO I think Hero Worship runs a very close second and may even be it's own thread I guess because it may tweek things just enough to bring out some different points. :)
(edited for spelling)
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Oakspear
Part of the problem comes from some folks' need to be led and others' need to lead. Sometimes the need or desire to lead morphs into a desire to dominate. Those who want to be led often just don't want to think.
Maybe there's a critical mass where informal groups turn into organizations. Not sure, got to give it more thought.
In the loosely affiliated bunch of people who I associate with for spiritual/philosophical reasons, there is no permanent leader. Several people open their homes for religious services, and the host often "leads" the services, but doesn't dictate to others how to run a ceremony when they do it. There are people who I look to as "teachers" in certain areas, but these people make no attempt to tell me what to do, nor do I expect them to; they're just sources of information. Many of the local people that I associate with have "longsuits" in some areas that I respect and defer to and I have "longsuits" that others defer to.
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Ham
hmm. I think that the twi expectations of "the man" set a lot of "men" up for failure, and set a lot of women up for disappointment..
just a thought..
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Shellon
In alot of ways, Ham, yes. As a strong woman trying to support a man in that organization, it was tough playing the game for everyone.
I often wondered what we might be teaching our daughters, too.
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chockfull
I don't need a man to intercede between myself and God. Jesus Christ does just fine.
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JeffSjo
And perhaps set them up to be a bunch of castrated buttkissers too?
Do you think man worship led to men being beaten down into being less of a man? Some might say...karmic justice....?
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