I wanna know whose believing is responsible for the light bulb burning out in the first place.
Hey Waysider!
Was there really any light at TWI to begin with? From what I have heard about all the plagerism that went on there, just about every bit of light they had wasn't even their own. It all belonged to somebody else.
So the question is MOOT from the start. There was no light for anyone to be responsible for!
That's a great point Spectrum! And you got me thinking more about vp's plagiarism which has been and continues to be a big topic on many threads but what I thought may prove enlightening for some newer folks is to isolate vp's input from that of those he plagiarized I'm not suggesting another direction for this thread just wanted to recommend folks check out Raf's thread "Actual Errors in PFAL"
Yup, the "accuracy & integrity of the Word" was never any more or less than what Wierwille said it was.
I have long thought that PFAL, for all it's sloppy scholarship and kindergarten research, was a master work at getting us to buy into Wierwille's theology.
Wierwille starts off by hammering on the theme of The Word is true, is faithful, is without error etc. Then he shows you that in modern translations there are errors, but then miraculously, through the power of research, solves the problem and voila! no errors. He spends a lot of time contrasting what mainstream churches teach with what he reads for us in black and white, all the while deriding the priests, popes and theologians for teaching otherwise, undermining our trust in anyone other than him! We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.
Yup, the "accuracy & integrity of the Word" was never any more or less than what Wierwille said it was.
I have long thought that PFAL, for all it's sloppy scholarship and kindergarten research, was a master work at getting us to buy into Wierwille's theology.
Wierwille starts off by hammering on the theme of The Word is true, is faithful, is without error etc. Then he shows you that in modern translations there are errors, but then miraculously, through the power of research, solves the problem and voila! no errors. He spends a lot of time contrasting what mainstream churches teach with what he reads for us in black and white, all the while deriding the priests, popes and theologians for teaching otherwise, undermining our trust in anyone other than him! We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.
Great input Oakspear! I watched a pretty good movie not too long ago and something you said brought it to mind in a round about way. I was thinking how in all of vp's plagiarism there's usually some flaws that surface which does more than just reveal his ineptness with the subject matter - it's further proof that his incompetency could NOT have come up with any of the material that he presents as his own.
Anyway, the movie is "Working Girl", 1988, starring Melanie Griffith, Sigourney Weaver & Harrison Ford. Sigourney steals an idea from her secretary [played by Melanie]. I won't get into the plot of the whole movie – but for the purpose of my point will describe a pivotal scene when Sigourney's "theft" is found out and Melanie winds up getting the credit. Sigourney is confronted by her boss after hearing about Melanie's involvement with the execution of the idea. The boss simply asks Sigourney to explain HOW she came up with the idea – and she couldn't. I love that scene!
Speaking of movies – think about how a good actor with a good screenplay can make for a good movie. But you know – no matter how well the actor plays the part of a brain surgeon having mannerisms and lingo down pat – it does NOT make him a real brain surgeon. Seasoned grads of PFAL are so enamored with vp's performance they can't see through the charade – having as Oakspear puts it their PFAL-colored glasses on.
That's a mindset that sorta functions like those 3-D glasses at the movies. The 3-D glasses really add a lot to the viewing experience - they simulate depth and give a sense of reality to the viewer. But after all it's only a movie – the actor is just pretending and the movie is not real. Having removed the PFAL-colored glasses a long time ago – this is just a review by one humble "movie" critic who has watched the PFAL show a number of times – and in my opinion vp is a lousy actor and the screenplay is poorly written – and vp is not a real theologian or scholar anyway.
I can see why this movie went straight to video - don't bother waiting for it to come out on DVD - instead there's a bootleg Blu-ray "version" of it already available - in the form of interactive commentaries right here at Grease Spot care for some popcorn?.. . Oh and don't bother to bring the PFAL-colored glasses - for some reason they don't work here. And for all you Grease Spot critics out there I'll make sure to put on my Grease Spot-colored glasses >>>> yo, check me out
So - - - How many Wafers does it take to change a light bulb??
Adding to the list:
6. One to determine whether the NEEDS and WANTS are parallel. You may WANT to change the light bulb, but do you really NEED to change the light bulb? If you didn't change the light bulb you could give the money you saved to TWI as opposed to spending it on second rate causes like hardware stores who are really run by seed men.
and
7. Light? Who needs light? If you're TWI's Board of Directors, you could just redefine darkness as light and then none of your followers would need to change light bulbs.
Yup, the "accuracy & integrity of the Word" was never any more or less than what Wierwille said it was.
I have long thought that PFAL, for all it's sloppy scholarship and kindergarten research, was a master work at getting us to buy into Wierwille's theology.
Wierwille starts off by hammering on the theme of The Word is true, is faithful, is without error etc. Then he shows you that in modern translations there are errors, but then miraculously, through the power of research, solves the problem and voila! no errors. He spends a lot of time contrasting what mainstream churches teach with what he reads for us in black and white, all the while deriding the priests, popes and theologians for teaching otherwise, undermining our trust in anyone other than him! We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.
That was my experience with TWI research! Well put.
Here's one example:
Now, turn to your PFAL books to verse - oops I mean page, 127, "Now I said that no translation, let along a version, may properly be called the Word of God."
That was my experience with TWI research! Well put.
Here's one example:
Now, turn to your PFAL books to verse - oops I mean page, 127, "Now I said that no translation, let along a version, may properly be called the Word of God."
WHOA. Then what CAN be called the Word of God?
Oh Vic had that covered...consider this
Vic: The word takes the place of the absent christ
Vic: God told me he would teach me the word like it hasn't been known since the first century
Conned cult follower's conclusion: Vic is the word and hence the absent christ.
...and how often did he make fun of the pope for speaking ex cathedra whilst vic did the very same.
Consider this:
Vic: There are no originals
Vic: I wish you could see it in the original (how many times did you hear that in rez?)
Conclusion: Vic was the word because somehow god showed him the original, Vic therefore is the absent christ
Vic conned us all and was a good con man. PT Barnum would have made him a full partner.
Vic: The word takes the place of the absent christ
Vic: God told me he would teach me the word like it hasn't been known since the first century
Conned cult follower's conclusion: Vic is the word and hence the absent christ.
...and how often did he make fun of the pope for speaking ex cathedra whilst vic did the very same.
Consider this:
Vic: There are no originals
Vic: I wish you could see it in the original (how many times did you hear that in rez?)
Conclusion: Vic was the word because somehow god showed him the original, Vic therefore is the absent christ
Vic conned us all and was a good con man. PT Barnum would have made him a full partner.
What's amazingly similar when you look at Vic and a lot of the other cult leaders is how they set themselves up to be mediators between God and man. They functionally move to replace Christ in their followers eyes and understanding as opposed to simply pointing man towards Christ and themselves as a sinner like all the rest of mankind. You see this in their fruit as opposed to their words.
Mankind doesn't need another Savior, another Mediator. Christ is sufficient.
To me this is the crux of the difference between genuine and counterfeit Christianity. Between Christ and an antichrist.
We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.
Hey Oak…you just reminded me of something. I’m sure you all remember what the Vicster taught on “no private interpretation” from 2Pe 1:20…
He translated the word interpretation as letting loose, as in “letting a dog loose upon the game”. Then he goes off on a wild tangent, probably reminiscing of his own hunting experiences. I still remember the artwork (if you want to call it that) of his spotted retriever and the ducks flying all over the place.
What a horrid translation of the Greek word epilusis (from luo). This “letting loose” is more like disassembling, or taking apart for examination, kind of like taking a carburetor apart to understand what makes it work. And the MOG sure didn't want ANY OF US to be examining the scriptures for ourselves -- that was HIS JOB!
Now of course, with his "DEAF – a – NICHE – un" in place, that paved the way for more CONTROL over people by limiting what they could SPEAK. This “private letting loose” grew way out of proportion: "Unless you speak what the WORD SAYS (and remember, folks, VP is the WORD) then you are way out of line!"
But anything VEE PEE WEIRD-WILLE wanted to spout off was just fine…he just let it all loose upon the game. (Too bad we were the GAME.) Later on, LCM took that “letting loose” to a whole other DIMENSION!
Great input Oakspear! I watched a pretty good movie not too long ago and something you said brought it to mind in a round about way. I was thinking how in all of vp's plagiarism there's usually some flaws that surface which does more than just reveal his ineptness with the subject matter - it's further proof that his incompetency could NOT have come up with any of the material that he presents as his own.
There's several examples in Wierwille's stuff that illustrate this, often when he is using Bullinger to back up a point...more than a few times he demonstrates that he doesn't really understand Bullinger's point.
Hey Oak…you just reminded me of something. I’m sure you all remember what the Vicster taught on “no private interpretation” from 2Pe 1:20…
He translated the word interpretation as letting loose, as in “letting a dog loose upon the game”. Then he goes off on a wild tangent, probably reminiscing of his own hunting experiences. I still remember the artwork (if you want to call it that) of his spotted retriever and the ducks flying all over the place.
What a horrid translation of the Greek word epilusis (from luo). This “letting loose” is more like disassembling, or taking apart for examination, kind of like taking a carburetor apart to understand what makes it work. And the MOG sure didn't want ANY OF US to be examining the scriptures for ourselves -- that was HIS JOB!
This is one of those examples. When you read Bullinger's section on this verse in How to Enjoy the Bible, you can see that Wierwille completely misunderstands Bullinger's point, that the Greek word in question refers to the act of letting loose, i.e. expounding, explaining, opening up, not the dogs set upon the game after they are released.
I refrained from asking "How did docvic change a light bulb?", but given the great responses here - - - I'll ask anyway.
Question: How did docvic change a light bulb?
Answer: He didn't. He just held the light bulb up, and let the room revolve around him.
D Miller – that's so funny and very fitting with Rum Runner's post.
Chockfull, thanks for your additions and I've got a feeling we're going to have the most comprehensive answer to D Miller's first question by the time this thread is done.
I appreciate everyone's comments even though I may not have acknowledged all the posts. After a favorite thread runs its course I usually download it & convert it to a PDF for safe-keeping. This way when I'm really old & memory is totally shot I'll review them all with renewed shock & awe: "What?! I was in a cult?! Then I got out and joined Grease Spot?! Grease Spot? What's a Grease Spot?.. .Well, at least I wasn't abducted by aliens.. . not that I know of anyway. Unless it's on one of these other gol' darn threads! Tonto, more cappuccino please!.. . Shoulda stuck with the Decaffeinated forum."
Oh Vic had that covered...consider this
Vic: The word takes the place of the absent christ
Vic: God told me he would teach me the word like it hasn't been known since the first century
Conned cult follower's conclusion: Vic is the word and hence the absent christ.
...and how often did he make fun of the pope for speaking ex cathedra whilst vic did the very same.
Consider this:
Vic: There are no originals
Vic: I wish you could see it in the original (how many times did you hear that in rez?)
Conclusion: Vic was the word because somehow god showed him the original, Vic therefore is the absent christ
Vic conned us all and was a good con man. PT Barnum would have made him a full partner.
Great googly moogly Rum Runner! That is one helluva incisive post! You've certainly hit the nail on the head – uhm, my head - or more specifically where my head was at during its TWI years. Never put it together like that – but for all practical purposes I believe there were many of us who held vp in just about as high regard as Christ Himself. Ugh – what a con indeed!
I found another vp quote from "Lifelines", page 31 under the chapter "The Integrity of God's Word" - it fits in rather nice right about now:
"Research – not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself." End of excerpt.
Yeah – keep away from researching for anything new - cuz you might find something that contradicts the "accuracy & integrity" of what Christ vp said in PFAL. Class, the ONLY way to establish in your own heart the "accuracy and integrity" of PFAL is to review PFAL and ONLY PFAL. Review, review, review until you've got PFAL coming out of both earballs. [End of excerpt from an amplified literal translation according to Way-years of intellectual neglect & abuse. Oh, how I wish you could see it in the original - it's just SO WHAT?!]
"lambano, laballo, ballo, throw the ball, throw it out"
Yeah, yeah---That's it
Throw the whole thing out!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Oh, God! My side hurts! What a fun thread! Ouch! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Remember when VP said, "I know what you're thinking!" ?
Does that mean he somehow knows the thoughts of everyone who is watching PFAL on Tape, Video, or Film? -- new students and grads alike -- all over the world, every time that class is run, and even now -- from the grave?
I believe it was T-Bone who quipped on a thread somewhere that TWI is a "target-rich environment". HOW TRUE! HOW VERY TRUE!
"I know what you're thinking" hmm are you sure that wasn't a point where he tried to step up from the place of Christ into the place of God? Things that make you go hmm?
We've got the makings for a couple of movies so far.. .
"The Absent Minded Christ" the story of a cult leader with an extreme Messiah complex. With his thoughts always in deep doo doo he remains heedless to present circumstances and clueless to a thing called reality. Watch the drama unfold as he lords it over meek followers. All the drama comes from the cult leader's stage antics because his followers have been trained to suppress emotions.
"Chariot of the god" A cult leader hell-bent on his-word-over-your-world domination, travels town to town in a motor coach, proclaiming he knows what his followers think. The suspense intensifies when the cult leader finds out what some of his followers really think about the motor coach rocking after each service.
We've got the makings for a couple of movies so far...
How about this movie T-Bone?…
Way International Treasure: Book of Secrets
Everything that went on behind the scenes at TWI was documented in a secret journal known only by the Presidents. (VPW, LCM, & RFR) It was filed away where only THEY KNEW…But the book has been discovered!
View for yourself the horrid details of rampant sex orgies by the Trustees, misappropriation of ABS for cases of Drambuie for the Master. Feast your eyes on what really happened there - the lies, the deceipt, the plagerism – and a whole lot more...
Not only is that really funny but you've managed to point out yet another inaccuracy in vp's doctrines. Gene Siskel passed away in 1999 - yet he was still able to review this current release! And I remember in the class vp said critics come and go – he even gave a definitive answer in "Are the Dead Alive Now?" But all that didn't stop Siskel from reviewing this movie. Way to go Spec!
[sorry Spec - that was the perfect set up - I couldn't resist; your post was very funny and spot on though! Love ya, Bro ]
I posted this on another thread and thought a "revised version" would fit here as well. It's the sum & substance of that which I've spoken in another thread. <_< I would highly recommend you check out that thread started by Pawtucket – I feel it delves into our topic more thoroughly – or should that be "throughly"?:unsure: Anyway it's "New front page article: Nostalgia for TWI Research Raises Questions" and make sure you read Penworks' incisive article referenced by Paw in the first post:
Hey while we're into thread hopping – let me throw another one atcha – which is also relevant to our discussion. Penworks was on TWI's research team and assisted in drafting those literal translations according to usage
So we've taken a bit of a trip around Grease Spot – please don't be discouraged – you've made it this far. To quote from the old "Martin Luther" movie I watched in-residence: "The journey itself is an act of faith."
~~
Ok – back on track.. .now what was I talking about? Oh, yeah
After I read Penwork's article I was struck with two major differences between what I had absorbed in The Way and a decent systematic theology – it's the lack of honesty & humility in TWI's theology.
humility - Besides analyzing the biblical data, a good systematic theology will explore historical and philosophical resources. What did Luther say about this or that – or what did others say - Calvin, Augustine, the early church fathers, Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, Barth, etc. – how did they interpret the passage or view the subject? Humility is what enables us to learn from others. I think it was Sir Isaac Newton who said something like "if I've seen farther than others it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants."
honesty - Being upfront about the process of developing a theology is a big deal in my book. vp had this dubious "the Bible interprets itself" thing going on [a premise I find absolutely absurd now] partnered up with the desire to pronounce "thus saith the Lord" on everything. Whereas, the systematic theologies I like are straightforward in their approach of a subject – after detailing the technical data [original languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] they usually convey to the reader in one way or another when they're stepping off into a more cerebral territory – getting into deductions, inferences, implications, extrapolations & speculations. I've already made the point about vp suggesting what he wrote was God-breathed - distinguishing himself above theologians folks are familiar with - a double whammy lacking honesty & humility for sure.
Imho I think the intellect is the number one research tool in any field – the mind being the navigator in charting out the explorer's map. The way I see it now, I joined TWI and they handed me a theological map – it had one little island with the capitol being New Knoxville – surrounded by a large body of water with "here be dragons" written everywhere. Currently my theological map has me on a peninsula – and there's lots of places with interesting names "I don't know", "Not sure", "Maybe", "Probably", "Could be Related", "I don't believe that", "This may have something to do with God", etc., these names are penciled in and I may never commit some to ink. I don't worship the Bible anymore either – but view it as a means to an end – knowing God.
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waysider
DMiller, rumrunner, and pretty sure Kris, as well.
waysider
I wanna know whose believing is responsible for the light bulb burning out in the first place.
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spectrum49
Hey Waysider!
Was there really any light at TWI to begin with? From what I have heard about all the plagerism that went on there, just about every bit of light they had wasn't even their own. It all belonged to somebody else.
So the question is MOOT from the start. There was no light for anyone to be responsible for!
SPEC
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T-Bone
That's a great point Spectrum! And you got me thinking more about vp's plagiarism which has been and continues to be a big topic on many threads but what I thought may prove enlightening for some newer folks is to isolate vp's input from that of those he plagiarized I'm not suggesting another direction for this thread just wanted to recommend folks check out Raf's thread "Actual Errors in PFAL"
http://www.greasespo...dpost__p__21847
Yup - it really showcases his knack for "accuracy" alright - never mind what it says about having any intellectual "integrity".
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Oakspear
Yup, the "accuracy & integrity of the Word" was never any more or less than what Wierwille said it was.
I have long thought that PFAL, for all it's sloppy scholarship and kindergarten research, was a master work at getting us to buy into Wierwille's theology.
Wierwille starts off by hammering on the theme of The Word is true, is faithful, is without error etc. Then he shows you that in modern translations there are errors, but then miraculously, through the power of research, solves the problem and voila! no errors. He spends a lot of time contrasting what mainstream churches teach with what he reads for us in black and white, all the while deriding the priests, popes and theologians for teaching otherwise, undermining our trust in anyone other than him! We hardly notice when he stops reading exactly what is written and starts slipping in his own interpretations, and most of us never realize that he's making up definitions and referring to texts and documents that exist only in his mind.
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cheranne
For Real! Anything by Dr. Fat Rat is a LIE!
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=595_yOAyZi8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=595_yOAyZi8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=595_yOAyZi8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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T-Bone
Great input Oakspear! I watched a pretty good movie not too long ago and something you said brought it to mind in a round about way. I was thinking how in all of vp's plagiarism there's usually some flaws that surface which does more than just reveal his ineptness with the subject matter - it's further proof that his incompetency could NOT have come up with any of the material that he presents as his own.
Anyway, the movie is "Working Girl", 1988, starring Melanie Griffith, Sigourney Weaver & Harrison Ford. Sigourney steals an idea from her secretary [played by Melanie]. I won't get into the plot of the whole movie – but for the purpose of my point will describe a pivotal scene when Sigourney's "theft" is found out and Melanie winds up getting the credit. Sigourney is confronted by her boss after hearing about Melanie's involvement with the execution of the idea. The boss simply asks Sigourney to explain HOW she came up with the idea – and she couldn't. I love that scene!
Speaking of movies – think about how a good actor with a good screenplay can make for a good movie. But you know – no matter how well the actor plays the part of a brain surgeon having mannerisms and lingo down pat – it does NOT make him a real brain surgeon. Seasoned grads of PFAL are so enamored with vp's performance they can't see through the charade – having as Oakspear puts it their PFAL-colored glasses on.
That's a mindset that sorta functions like those 3-D glasses at the movies. The 3-D glasses really add a lot to the viewing experience - they simulate depth and give a sense of reality to the viewer. But after all it's only a movie – the actor is just pretending and the movie is not real. Having removed the PFAL-colored glasses a long time ago – this is just a review by one humble "movie" critic who has watched the PFAL show a number of times – and in my opinion vp is a lousy actor and the screenplay is poorly written – and vp is not a real theologian or scholar anyway.
I can see why this movie went straight to video - don't bother waiting for it to come out on DVD - instead there's a bootleg Blu-ray "version" of it already available - in the form of interactive commentaries right here at Grease Spot
care for some popcorn?.. . Oh and don't bother to bring the PFAL-colored glasses - for some reason they don't work here. And for all you Grease Spot critics out there I'll make sure to put on my Grease Spot-colored glasses >>>> yo, check me out 
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chockfull
Adding to the list:
6. One to determine whether the NEEDS and WANTS are parallel. You may WANT to change the light bulb, but do you really NEED to change the light bulb? If you didn't change the light bulb you could give the money you saved to TWI as opposed to spending it on second rate causes like hardware stores who are really run by seed men.
and
7. Light? Who needs light? If you're TWI's Board of Directors, you could just redefine darkness as light and then none of your followers would need to change light bulbs.
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dmiller
Good one waysider!
I refrained from asking "How did docvic change a light bulb?", but given the great responses here - - - I'll ask anyway.
Question: How did docvic change a light bulb?
Answer: He didn't. He just held the light bulb up, and let the room revolve around him.
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penworks
That was my experience with TWI research! Well put.
Here's one example:
Now, turn to your PFAL books to verse - oops I mean page, 127, "Now I said that no translation, let along a version, may properly be called the Word of God."
WHOA. Then what CAN be called the Word of God?
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RumRunner
Oh Vic had that covered...consider this
Vic: The word takes the place of the absent christ
Vic: God told me he would teach me the word like it hasn't been known since the first century
Conned cult follower's conclusion: Vic is the word and hence the absent christ.
...and how often did he make fun of the pope for speaking ex cathedra whilst vic did the very same.
Consider this:
Vic: There are no originals
Vic: I wish you could see it in the original (how many times did you hear that in rez?)
Conclusion: Vic was the word because somehow god showed him the original, Vic therefore is the absent christ
Vic conned us all and was a good con man. PT Barnum would have made him a full partner.
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waysider
P.T. Barnum didn't try to pretend he was anything other than what he was.
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chockfull
What's amazingly similar when you look at Vic and a lot of the other cult leaders is how they set themselves up to be mediators between God and man. They functionally move to replace Christ in their followers eyes and understanding as opposed to simply pointing man towards Christ and themselves as a sinner like all the rest of mankind. You see this in their fruit as opposed to their words.
Mankind doesn't need another Savior, another Mediator. Christ is sufficient.
To me this is the crux of the difference between genuine and counterfeit Christianity. Between Christ and an antichrist.
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spectrum49
Hey Oak…you just reminded me of something. I’m sure you all remember what the Vicster taught on “no private interpretation” from 2Pe 1:20…
He translated the word interpretation as letting loose, as in “letting a dog loose upon the game”. Then he goes off on a wild tangent, probably reminiscing of his own hunting experiences. I still remember the artwork (if you want to call it that) of his spotted retriever and the ducks flying all over the place.
What a horrid translation of the Greek word epilusis (from luo). This “letting loose” is more like disassembling, or taking apart for examination, kind of like taking a carburetor apart to understand what makes it work. And the MOG sure didn't want ANY OF US to be examining the scriptures for ourselves -- that was HIS JOB!
Now of course, with his "DEAF – a – NICHE – un" in place, that paved the way for more CONTROL over people by limiting what they could SPEAK. This “private letting loose” grew way out of proportion: "Unless you speak what the WORD SAYS (and remember, folks, VP is the WORD) then you are way out of line!"
But anything VEE PEE WEIRD-WILLE wanted to spout off was just fine…he just let it all loose upon the game. (Too bad we were the GAME.) Later on, LCM took that “letting loose” to a whole other DIMENSION!
SPEC
:)
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Oakspear
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waysider
"lambano, laballo, ballo, throw the ball, throw it out"
Yeah, yeah---That's it
Throw the whole thing out!
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T-Bone
D Miller – that's so funny and very fitting with Rum Runner's post.
Chockfull, thanks for your additions and I've got a feeling we're going to have the most comprehensive answer to D Miller's first question by the time this thread is done.
I appreciate everyone's comments even though I may not have acknowledged all the posts. After a favorite thread runs its course I usually download it & convert it to a PDF for safe-keeping. This way when I'm really old & memory is totally shot I'll review them all with renewed shock & awe: "What?! I was in a cult?! Then I got out and joined Grease Spot?! Grease Spot? What's a Grease Spot?.. .Well, at least I wasn't abducted by aliens.. . not that I know of anyway. Unless it's on one of these other gol' darn threads! Tonto, more cappuccino please!.. . Shoulda stuck with the Decaffeinated forum."
Great googly moogly Rum Runner! That is one helluva incisive post! You've certainly hit the nail on the head – uhm, my head - or more specifically where my head was at during its TWI years. Never put it together like that – but for all practical purposes I believe there were many of us who held vp in just about as high regard as Christ Himself. Ugh – what a con indeed!
I found another vp quote from "Lifelines", page 31 under the chapter "The Integrity of God's Word" - it fits in rather nice right about now:
"Research – not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself." End of excerpt.
Yeah – keep away from researching for anything new - cuz you might find something that contradicts the "accuracy & integrity" of what Christ vp said in PFAL. Class, the ONLY way to establish in your own heart the "accuracy and integrity" of PFAL is to review PFAL and ONLY PFAL. Review, review, review until you've got PFAL coming out of both earballs. [End of excerpt from an amplified literal translation according to Way-years of intellectual neglect & abuse. Oh, how I wish you could see it in the original - it's just SO WHAT?!]
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spectrum49
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Oh, God! My side hurts! What a fun thread! Ouch! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
Remember when VP said, "I know what you're thinking!" ?
Does that mean he somehow knows the thoughts of everyone who is watching PFAL on Tape, Video, or Film? -- new students and grads alike -- all over the world, every time that class is run, and even now -- from the grave?
I believe it was T-Bone who quipped on a thread somewhere that TWI is a "target-rich environment". HOW TRUE! HOW VERY TRUE!
SPEC
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grand-daughter
"I know what you're thinking" hmm are you sure that wasn't a point where he tried to step up from the place of Christ into the place of God? Things that make you go hmm?
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T-Bone
We've got the makings for a couple of movies so far.. .
"The Absent Minded Christ" the story of a cult leader with an extreme Messiah complex. With his thoughts always in deep doo doo he remains heedless to present circumstances and clueless to a thing called reality. Watch the drama unfold as he lords it over meek followers. All the drama comes from the cult leader's stage antics because his followers have been trained to suppress emotions.
"Chariot of the god" A cult leader hell-bent on his-word-over-your-world domination, travels town to town in a motor coach, proclaiming he knows what his followers think. The suspense intensifies when the cult leader finds out what some of his followers really think about the motor coach rocking after each service.
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spectrum49
How about this movie T-Bone?…
Way International Treasure: Book of Secrets
Everything that went on behind the scenes at TWI was documented in a secret journal known only by the Presidents. (VPW, LCM, & RFR) It was filed away where only THEY KNEW…But the book has been discovered!
View for yourself the horrid details of rampant sex orgies by the Trustees, misappropriation of ABS for cases of Drambuie for the Master. Feast your eyes on what really happened there - the lies, the deceipt, the plagerism – and a whole lot more...
A MUST SEE !!
Siskel & Ebert: "Two thumbs up their a**!"
This motion picture is not worth rating...
SPEC
:)
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T-Bone
Not only is that really funny but you've managed to point out yet another inaccuracy in vp's doctrines. Gene Siskel passed away in 1999 - yet he was still able to review this current release! And I remember in the class vp said critics come and go – he even gave a definitive answer in "Are the Dead Alive Now?" But all that didn't stop Siskel from reviewing this movie. Way to go Spec!
[sorry Spec - that was the perfect set up - I couldn't resist; your post was very funny and spot on though! Love ya, Bro
]
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T-Bone
I posted this on another thread and thought a "revised version" would fit here as well. It's the sum & substance of that which I've spoken in another thread. <_< I would highly recommend you check out that thread started by Pawtucket – I feel it delves into our topic more thoroughly – or should that be "throughly"?:unsure: Anyway it's "New front page article: Nostalgia for TWI Research Raises Questions" and make sure you read Penworks' incisive article referenced by Paw in the first post:
http://www.greasespo...post__p__479991
And of particular note on that thread is a great observation by Tzaia – the contradiction about research in TWI's handout sheet:
http://www.greasespo...post__p__481086
Hey while we're into thread hopping – let me throw another one atcha – which is also relevant to our discussion. Penworks was on TWI's research team and assisted in drafting those literal translations according to usage
http://www.greasespo...post__p__480769
So we've taken a bit of a trip around Grease Spot – please don't be discouraged – you've made it this far. To quote from the old "Martin Luther" movie I watched in-residence: "The journey itself is an act of faith."
~~
Ok – back on track.. .now what was I talking about? Oh, yeah
After I read Penwork's article I was struck with two major differences between what I had absorbed in The Way and a decent systematic theology – it's the lack of honesty & humility in TWI's theology.
humility - Besides analyzing the biblical data, a good systematic theology will explore historical and philosophical resources. What did Luther say about this or that – or what did others say - Calvin, Augustine, the early church fathers, Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, Barth, etc. – how did they interpret the passage or view the subject? Humility is what enables us to learn from others. I think it was Sir Isaac Newton who said something like "if I've seen farther than others it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants."
honesty - Being upfront about the process of developing a theology is a big deal in my book. vp had this dubious "the Bible interprets itself" thing going on [a premise I find absolutely absurd now] partnered up with the desire to pronounce "thus saith the Lord" on everything. Whereas, the systematic theologies I like are straightforward in their approach of a subject – after detailing the technical data [original languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] they usually convey to the reader in one way or another when they're stepping off into a more cerebral territory – getting into deductions, inferences, implications, extrapolations & speculations. I've already made the point about vp suggesting what he wrote was God-breathed - distinguishing himself above theologians folks are familiar with - a double whammy lacking honesty & humility for sure.
Imho I think the intellect is the number one research tool in any field – the mind being the navigator in charting out the explorer's map. The way I see it now, I joined TWI and they handed me a theological map – it had one little island with the capitol being New Knoxville – surrounded by a large body of water with "here be dragons" written everywhere. Currently my theological map has me on a peninsula – and there's lots of places with interesting names "I don't know", "Not sure", "Maybe", "Probably", "Could be Related", "I don't believe that", "This may have something to do with God", etc., these names are penciled in and I may never commit some to ink. I don't worship the Bible anymore either – but view it as a means to an end – knowing God.
love & peace
T-Bone
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Nathan_Jr
A damn near perfect little thread.
Pure gold from everyone contributing.
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chockfull
Wow the shiz I posted in 2009 sounds remarkably like the shiz I posted last month.
While at TWI they have gone through at least a couple of administrations of trying to make it better.
And yet it still smells like cheese! Nope still not coming home to the cheese whiz Bible research organization.
And spectrum and oak spear and waysider sound pretty awesome also wish they were here. T bone is his own awesome self also.
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