"I'd be dead by now."

[Bolshevik]

I think the context is concerned with people who had connections to New Knoxville, Ohio, not Patagonia or Bora Bora.

Context!? . . .

Lcm would not approve of such a simple, nonspiritual approach . . .

No he would not.

Heh

[Tzaia]

I was well on my way to getting myself straightened out when I was sidetracked by TWI. Whether it helped or hindered will remain unanswered. I have no way of knowing since I can't go back and live that part of my life again.

I know I went nearly 30 years with all my belief systems neatly packaged with what I believed was the best of TWI, only to find them completely blown apart a couple of years ago.

[WordWolf]

Well, I think my point in starting this thread is that this phrase, or some variation of it, is really something that originated in the early days of The Way and found its way into mainstream Way vocabulary like a catch phrase. I believe there were probably a lot of people who automatically parroted this phrase/idea as if it pertained to some specific, personal event or circumstance. It became a sort of a declaration of indebtedness to the organization.

Not from lack of trying.

I heard the early form of this slogan from vpw on ROA tapes.

(Review ROA '79's tapes sometime.)

I probably heard him say it in passing on other tapes as well.

He started off with the early form, phrased a little different,

and as a question, then required the answer from large groups

where SOMEONE was bound to give him the answer he wanted.

"Where would we be without GOD?"

(audience off-microphone)

"That's right, some of us, we'd be DEAD!"

From there it was a short hop to swap out "God" for "God's ministry"

or "God's class" or some other nonsense,

making it "if not for the plagiarizing rapist, his class, and his group,

I'd be dead!"

One more short hop brings you to "I must owe this organization my slave-labor

for life!"

[penworks]

Not from lack of trying.

I heard the early form of this slogan from vpw on ROA tapes.

(Review ROA '79's tapes sometime.)

I probably heard him say it in passing on other tapes as well.

He started off with the early form, phrased a little different,

and as a question, then required the answer from large groups

where SOMEONE was bound to give him the answer he wanted.

"Where would we be without GOD?"

(audience off-microphone)

"That's right, some of us, we'd be DEAD!"

From there it was a short hop to swap out "God" for "God's ministry"

or "God's class" or some other nonsense,

making it "if not for the plagiarizing rapist, his class, and his group,

I'd be dead!"

One more short hop brings you to "I must owe this organization my slave-labor

for life!"

Well put, I have to say the same things are in my memory banks, too!

[Oakspear]

There was also an expectation that you believed the line, whether it applied or not.

I knew some people who changed tracks in life by replacing drugs, sex, crime, whatever with TWI; for whom getting involved in TWI got them away from a path of bad choices and eventual disaster or even death. But these folks, at least in my experience, were a small minority. Eventually I started hearing the badness of ones pre-PFAL life inflated, occasional pot smoking equated with being a drug addict or some adolescent trouble-making on par with a life of crime for instance.

[chockfull]

Not from lack of trying.

I heard the early form of this slogan from vpw on ROA tapes.

(Review ROA '79's tapes sometime.)

I probably heard him say it in passing on other tapes as well.

He started off with the early form, phrased a little different,

and as a question, then required the answer from large groups

where SOMEONE was bound to give him the answer he wanted.

"Where would we be without GOD?"

(audience off-microphone)

"That's right, some of us, we'd be DEAD!"

From there it was a short hop to swap out "God" for "God's ministry"

or "God's class" or some other nonsense,

making it "if not for the plagiarizing rapist, his class, and his group,

I'd be dead!"

One more short hop brings you to "I must owe this organization my slave-labor

for life!"

You know, you ask yourself "how did I get here?" w/r to the extreme BS we put up with in TWI. And the answer is just as you describe. It's no one large choice, but a series of short hops. It's not compromising from "normal" to "brainwashed", it's from normal to one step outside, then from one step to two steps off norm, and so on.

That is the HOW of control that we succumbed to.

[Tzaia]

You know, you ask yourself "how did I get here?" w/r to the extreme BS we put up with in TWI. And the answer is just as you describe. It's no one large choice, but a series of short hops. It's not compromising from "normal" to "brainwashed", it's from normal to one step outside, then from one step to two steps off norm, and so on.

That is the HOW of control that we succumbed to.

Abnormal doesn't seem so abnormal when it is the norm. "Small groups" were not a regular thing back in the day and we weren't sure how we were supposed to be in them. It just seems like people should get all in your business in that sort of environment. To this day people don't get why I don't do small groups.