Witchcraft

[Dot Matrix]

Socks:

Did you make that up? I really like it.

One man's ceiling is another man's sky, if you know what I mean.

[socks]

Hmmm, not sure Dot. Stuff just comes out.

That might mean more of...well, you know.

"One man's ceiling is another man's floor" is how the original saying goes I think.

[Broken Arrow]

Is not prayer an act to use supernatural means to bring about change in reality?

No. TWI as well as the "name it and claim it" groups tried to use prayer that way. But prayer as taught in the Bible is not "an act to use supernatural means etc. Prayer is a request, not a demand as postulated by VPW. As if we can direct the hand of God Himself at our own whims.

[Ham]

"I dunno. It's not just *them*.. its us as well.."

One man's ceiling is another man's sky, if you know what I mean.

Anything done more than once, well say within a frame of reference that requires it to be done more than once, as in where an observed cause and effect would lead one towards an expected response, can become a ritual of sorts and will start to carry meaning and significance around the performance of the act or the uh, thing. Being done. Without real consideration of the relationship between the action and the outcome other than it feels right or good or seems to "work" the same way or in an expected way each time.

All the stuff about watching one's favorite team and doing things the same way, wearing a hat that you wore every game where the team won, or stirring your nacho's 3 tiems before each play because they swished a basket when you did that - twice! and each time you stirred! and belched once so you want to do that now, that kind of thing.

We are creatures of habit, we'd go nuts if we weren't and where there's constant reinvention you get a lot of wasted effort if you're only getting the same results each time or can't even measure the results.

The measure of success people often end up going by is the way they feel when they perform the ritual. It can be soothing or just comfortable.

Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that the actions performed have any relationship to what the action was originally intended to produce. A lot of stuff is just habit and cultural glue or as the artist Don Van Vliet once said "it gets him dressed in the morning".

I've come to focus on the intent of the person doing the action and what they're trying to accomplish. For all the good Christians talk about, or Wiccans or Pagans or Witches or Don'BelieveNuttin's - theres a lot of greedy, selfish, meaner 'n' snot people of all stripe. (I should also add good ones too).

Seeing a thing for what it is - without imposing anything on it other than the immediate perception of what it actually is - can be difficult to do but not impossible, and can be learned. I'm sure many around here do that. Doing that I believe allows for the characteristics and textures of something to reveal themselves for what they really are.

Naturally that requires some form of receptor and therein is life's wonderful work, to me.

sooo.

sometimes one can do the best for people..

is to just let them to go through the damned drill..

they aren't going to ask your permission or anything anyway..

so what do you do..

[Ham]

Yeah, what do you do..

I've asked some who chose the Roman Catholic faith.. "do you REALLY feel comfortable believing that..

"

and if the answer is "yes".. who am I to stand in the way..

At this point, I can't choose anything. Literally..

heh

now if a funny dayglo colored bus showed up in front of the house..

or alien cats, or squirrels from outer space..

I'd jump on, in a heartbeat..

[waysider]

Farewell the Temple Master's bell

His kiosk and his black worm "seed"

Courtship solely of his "Word"

With Eden guaranteed.

(In case that was too obtuse, VP was the Temple Master of TWI.)

Edited January 8, 2011 by waysider

[Bramble]

Interesting online book (google) about the historical context of the witch trials.

European Witch Trials

There is a Calendar of Witch Trials with brief descriptions. Things like woman allegedly riding a wolf... woman had a familiar(she owned a pet cat, I'll bet)... woman beheaded for love magic (lotsa love magic issues back in the day.)

Not seeing a lot of accusations of 'woman controlled entire village to her benefit ...coerced people via fear to obey her...forced people to give her their money/sons/husbands/barley/ale'

Edited January 8, 2011 by Bramble

[So_crates]

And don't forget your towel.

Can't be a hoopy frood without your towel.

Meet you guys at Milliways. Hopefully no Vogons will be there reading poetry. Oh, don't forget to bring your Babel fish.

SoCrates

Edited January 8, 2011 by So_crates

[johniam]

Interesting online book (google) about the historical context of the witch trials.

European Witch Trials

There is a Calendar of Witch Trials with brief descriptions. Things like woman allegedly riding a wolf... woman had a familiar(she owned a pet cat, I'll bet)... woman beheaded for love magic (lotsa love magic issues back in the day.)

Not seeing a lot of accusations of 'woman controlled entire village to her benefit ...coerced people via fear to obey her...forced people to give her their money/sons/husbands/barley/ale'

*****************************************************

Lately, I considered the record in 1 Sam 28 about the 'witch' of Endor. Saul wanted to ask counsel of one who had a familiar spirit. But there were no 'witches are us' stores apparently, so Saul went to a lot of trouble to find one with a familiar spirit, even crossing enemy lines. This is the only biblical record I can think of where a witch is covered in detail. OK, fast forward to Salem, MA.

There were no witches are us stores then, either. So hows come all these girls were guilty of witchcraft in a small community like that? I'm more likely to believe that a clergyman with the help of corrupt town leaders needed to silence any girl who wouldn't submit herself sexually to them.

Also, I remember that a 6th corps grad named Tom Benner had a witchcraft background before twi which was discussed graphically in a Heart magazine issue. Wonder what he might say about this, since he is no longer with twi.

Edited January 10, 2011 by johniam

[Broken Arrow]

I saw something on the History Channel a few weeks ago about this very topic. I don't recall everything but I believe they said it was along the lines of a slave woman who would perform healings with incantations, herbs etc. so she was accused of witchcraft. When she was captured, she started naming names of others.

Most of the women accused were poor and "lower class" except for one. People were so frightened that they wouldn't even let these women speak in their own defense because, being witches, they might hypnotize the listeners with their voices.

The one young woman who was not poor was able to defeat her charges but then later the court reversed its decision and executed her along with the others. Again, the second time around she was not allowed to speak on her own behalf.

It was, in effect, a slaughter and very very sad. Many of the women were only teenagers.

[JavaJane]

I saw something on the History Channel a few weeks ago about this very topic. I don't recall everything but I believe they said it was along the lines of a slave woman who would perform healings with incantations, herbs etc. so she was accused of witchcraft. When she was captured, she started naming names of others.

Most of the women accused were poor and "lower class" except for one. People were so frightened that they wouldn't even let these women speak in their own defense because, being witches, they might hypnotize the listeners with their voices.

The one young woman who was not poor was able to defeat her charges but then later the court reversed its decision and executed her along with the others. Again, the second time around she was not allowed to speak on her own behalf.

It was, in effect, a slaughter and very very sad. Many of the women were only teenagers.

Sounds a lot like TWI, if you ask me. Accused, but not allowed to speak on their own behalf.... Don't listen to THEM, they are OPERATING DEVIL SPIRITS.

And how many times in TWI did we hear that those who operate devil spirits are WORTHY OF DEATH?

[Twinky]

I think some members of the Cafe say they are witches. It would be interesting to see their perspective on this topic.

The witchcraft trials were probably nothing more than males protecting their hierarchical status. The women were often just traditional healers with the skill of knowing what local herbs could be used to treat common illnesses, thus challenging the medical profession (such as it was) which was all male and full of not very helpful "remedies."