VP was exhorting us as Christians to get in 'proactive mode' and get ready to go, stand, and speak God's word rather than sit on their butts like the Christians he saw. The world is always coming up with ways to scare Christians out of speaking the word.
You mean go, stand, speak Saint Vic's Word. Be proactive and make Saint Vic mountains of cash.
I think the real aim of the advanced class was to give us the tools to walk with God when speaking the word to others, new people or grads. THAT'S the part that didn't connect. I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?
The "growth periods" of TWI were basically during the years 1972 - 1984, mostly centered around riding the zeitgeist of the Jesus movement, and were also centered around distinct individual personalities where people who were genuine Christians functioned. In every case, VP rode in on a white horse, replaced these individuals with his trained "Corps" who he had spent 2 years indoctrinating on the farm, and took over the increase. In other cases, some people went through the Corps training and maintained by the grace of God somewhat of a genuine Christian life, so they were able to do some good.
What stands out is the following:
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
You cannot counterfeit a true foundation. And when men try to build upon a different foundation, their works crumble.
TWI rapidly became every bit as legalistic as Jerusalem circa 60's AD. And did so rapidly after any succession in leadership. Anything built around the cult of personality of one man or woman will do so.
That's what's at the root of this, not the lack of motivation for twiggies to accost people in malls.
The Holy Spirit takes the place of Christ in the Word in us.
It's obvious that VP meant BODILY absent, not totally absent, and he IS! He told his disciples that it was expedient that he go away. The word that takes the place of the absent Christ includes Jesus, in fact, he's the lynch pin; no Jesus, no salvation. No access to God. No gift of holy spirit. No miracles, no healings.
VP was exhorting us as Christians to get in 'proactive mode' and get ready to go, stand, and speak God's word rather than sit on their butts like the Christians he saw. The world is always coming up with ways to scare Christians out of speaking the word.
In Acts, Peter and John were told not to speak or teach in Jesus' name. This is STILL the devil's will for God's people. They weren't told not to read their bibles. They weren't told not to fellowship together. They weren't told not to pray. They weren't told not to ABS. They were told not to speak.
I think the real aim of the advanced class was to give us the tools to walk with God when speaking the word to others, new people or grads. THAT'S the part that didn't connect. I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?
No, I don't agree with you (shocked?). Seriously, Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible is different from the Jesus Christ taught in TWI. Moreover, they way we were taught in TWI to relate to Messiah is different than how it's taught in the Bible. TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life. Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so. It took me a long time to work this through, not that I've mastered anything.
Today, I have no use for the Advanced Class or anything else taught by TWI. I am grateful, though, that in TWI I learned the order of the books of the Bible. That is the only thing I learned that is of any worth.
Today, I have no use for the Advanced Class or anything else taught by TWI. I am grateful, though, that in TWI I learned the order of the books of the Bible. That is the only thing I learned that is of any worth.
The only thing I got from Da Vey is I can hold my own in bibical discussions.
Heavy emphasis on the law of believing, name it and claim it concepts. E.W. Kenyon is one of the originators. Much of it resembles the first few sessions of PFAL (IMO).
The so called law of believing has been misunderstood. If you have the word of God, THEN you can believe (with action) and it shall come to pass, like Jesus said. Believing, however, is not this 'raygun' that you can just shoot at any situation and magically make it right. If that were true, then no God IS needed.
I know that VP wondered late in his life where his believing had failed; why he was in that situation, but I doubt that he himself thought of believing as a 'raygun' in every day stuff. You think I believe everything he ever said just because he said it? No.
I know that VP wondered late in his life where his believing had failed; why he was in that situation, but I doubt that he himself thought of believing as a 'raygun' in every day stuff.
That's not the way I remember it. I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed. He blamed the situation on someone else.
.... Seriously, Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible is different from the Jesus Christ taught in TWI. Moreover, they way we were taught in TWI to relate to Messiah is different than how it's taught in the Bible. TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life. Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so. It took me a long time to work this through, not that I've mastered anything.
i think you've given a nice & concise summary of what the differences were.....
and if i could add a detail or two....
1. perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith. while they sugar coated it and said it's for our learning - imho, that was enough to diffuse the personal impact the gospels were meant to have on a Christian. The "hey, i live in the grace period, as vp said in PFAL - all i have to do is love god and neighbor and i can do as i fool well please."
~~
2. another insidious obstacle that stifled a genuine Christian experience was the whole forbidden-zone-Advanced-Class-based-fear-of-another-Jesus thing as Socks mentioned in an earlier post. and this represents a more serious detriment to growth, because i feel the Christian life is more about a relationship with a person than any scholarship with a book....
this is the don't-even-think-about-it control technique. i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian. Certainly not the homogenized, cookie-cutter standard institutionalized by TWI - the ideal "renewed mind hero", walking moment by moment in the ineffable greatness of PFAL.
~~
edited to prove that nothing is ineditable......or is that inedible?......whatever, the typo was just eating a hole in my head.
The so called law of believing has been misunderstood. If you have the word of God, THEN you can believe (with action) and it shall come to pass, like Jesus said. Believing, however, is not this 'raygun' that you can just shoot at any situation and magically make it right. If that were true, then no God IS needed.
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike".
quote: That's what's at the root of this, not the lack of motivation for twiggies to accost people in malls.
So Jesus "accosted" the woman at the well?
quote: I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed.
I don't recall this; did he say it to way corps only? All I remember was the 2 SIT alerts.
quote:
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike".
I don't recall anything about a raygun.
quote: Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so.
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. How did yours get broken? Did you stop getting prayers answered, or have you just followed the crowd and decided pfal CAN'T be the word of God because VP wasn't perfect?
quote: TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life.
How? As for me, before twi I was miserable when I wasn't high. After twi, I have peace in my heart, I get prayers answered, I can keep jobs, my family, though skeptical, is clearly impressed with how I changed, not just for a short time, for thirty plus years, it hasn't stopped! If that isn't a "true Christian experience" then it doesn't exist. Just how, practically, is the difference like day and night in your life, because my experience is the other way around.
quote: perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith.
For our learning does not equal for our ignoring. What do you do with differences like...
John 7:38,39 - ...for the holy ghost was not yet given... and...
Romans 5:5 - and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost which is given unto us.
Back in John and the other gospels, Jesus did many mighty works, yet there was no hope for us, no love of God shed abroad in our hearts, no holy ghost. Nobody could do the "greater works than these" in the gospels, either. Even LCM used to say that the gospels were written to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God.
quote: i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian.
So Romans 10:9,10 is just for Paul, not for the whole church??? I have 3 kids. They respond differently to the input my wife and I give them. We have to treat them as individuals, but they all live on the same planet, same house, same high school, same fellowships of believers, same a lot of things, and, for the time, have to go through the same me and my wife for many of their needs. We are all called to be in the same body of Christ. That just sounds like your excuse not to submit to the written word.
How? As for me, before twi I was miserable when I wasn't high. After twi, I have peace in my heart, I get prayers answered, I can keep jobs, my family, though skeptical, is clearly impressed with how I changed, not just for a short time, for thirty plus years, it hasn't stopped! If that isn't a "true Christian experience" then it doesn't exist. Just how, practically, is the difference like day and night in your life, because my experience is the other way around.
The so called law of believing has been misunderstood. If you have the word of God, THEN you can believe (with action) and it shall come to pass, like Jesus said. Believing, however, is not this 'raygun' that you can just shoot at any situation and magically make it right. If that were true, then no God IS needed.
waysider said:
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike"
John said:
I don't recall anything about a raygun.
waysider responds:
Nor do I. In fact, I never mentioned a ray-gun----you did.
-------------------------------------------------
PFAL
page 32
The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike.
-------------------------------------------------
So there you have it. In The Way, "born again believers" were referred to as saints and "natural-man unbelievers" were referred to as sinners. Wierwille is clearly implying here that no God is needed for the so-called law of believing to come into play.
"I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?"
If you mean why it became flat as a board and equally boring, that reflects several things IMO - "outreach" is the product of reaching out and having something you want to reach out with. I'm not talking about a "product" you sell or promote either but the natural expression of what someone is going through at that time.
Early on as well as later too what really had tangible value was an authentic change in people's lives that showed, spilled over and out to others.
You don't have to tell people to laugh when something's funny or to cry when something's sad - the response and reaction to those kinds of things are validations of realities that are experienced and real. Hear a room full of people laughing uproariously and you want to peek in and see what's so funny and they want to pass the humor on. It's real, spontaneous, authentic.
Read the gospels and it's obvious - when something really happens the lid pops off everyone's top. No one has any problem talking about it.
Over the years many ex-Wayfers have tried to blame someone or something for why 'it" dribbled off - to which I'd have to answer turn the mirror around instead of pointing it at someone else and you have your answer staring at you. They talk about it like it's always someones lack of believing or following some leader or getting too this or not enough that. That's stupid IMO. And by all appearances the Way Nash wouldn't know a miracle unless it showed up in their horn of plenty Sunday night. They're a great model for revival - just look at what they do and don't do that, do anything else.
It's like riding a bike - As soon as you stop and start counting how many times the wheel turns to go forward you start to wobble. Just ride the dammed bike, y'know? Every kid learns that early on in life but we forget..
And kids were the population of the Way - teens. 20 somethings were the adults for years there. All that energy, diversity, given a little fuel - bam! Worst thing you can do is try to put a lid on it, regiment it, orchestrate and manufacture it. File that under "buzz kill" in the dictionary.
For me, it's never stopped, I'll say that. Anyone who wonders where the good times went is on a different train. Can't be more blunt than that. If the Advanced Class material helps, fine but I'd suggest don't get stuck on trying to come up with the right "formula" for success or tagged with losers that want to redo something that's already been done. It's either real and now or it isn't. Everything else can be bought and sold but the things of God in action won't be bagged.
quote: I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed.
I don't recall this; did he say it to way corps only? All I remember was the 2 SIT alerts.
Geer quoted him as saying that in Passing of a Patriarch.
quote: Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so.
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. How did yours get broken? Did you stop getting prayers answered, or have you just followed the crowd and decided pfal CAN'T be the word of God because VP wasn't perfect?
Oh, but it is very broken. How did mine get broken? How did my what get broken? As far as your question, "did you stop getting your prayers answered....?" No, not really. I mean there were some prayers God didn't answer like I wanted Him to, but I had prayers answered. Much the same as when I was involved in the Methodist Church, God answered prayers then too. Now, as far as the rest of your "either or" question, "...did I just follow a crowd....?" That's a good question. It's not very well put and it exposes your deceit, but it's a good question. Let's see, I definitely followed a crowd when I got into TWI because I had friends that were in. I definitely went along with things while in because I wanted to be liked. There came a time when I had a major moral failure, and I realized I was in great need of help. Especially after my wife of 10 years chose to end our marriage and demand I move out of the house. My daughter was 9 years old. In the face of this failure and ruin, I didn't claim a verse in the Bible and say, "I've been forgiven!" "The past doesn't matter!" "There is no condemnation!" No, for the first time in years I asked God for help and he met me where I was and healed me. I didn't do that in TWI, I learned to claim a verse, or focus on what I wanted and make sure my needs and wants were parallel and all that crap as if I knew better than God what I needed. This time, I cried out to a Father and he reached for me. Today I'm in my right mind, I'm secure in my own sexuality, I'm remarried, and I have a very very good relationship with my daughter who will be 25 next month. So, if I did follow a crowd, I didn't stay out because of a crowd. I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI. It was only later I found out about the sexual exploits and dishonesty of V.P. Oh, and the verses I earlier quoted became more real to me then they had ever been. It's a partnership with God, it's not me managing my own sanctification.
i'm curious about something Johniam - do you not know how to do multiple quotes? i think it would help decipher the content of your posts - who is saying what.....anyway, i've included my post from which you made comments so readers don't have to jump back and forth and so i don't have to repeat myself.
within your post i have changed your words to red and posted a superscript number at the end - which corresponds to my numbered response so readers will know what i am addressing. your quotes from my post i left in black.
i'll try to make my comments as brief as possible
I said:
i think you've given a nice & concise summary of what the differences were.....
and if i could add a detail or two....
1. perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith. while they sugar coated it and said it's for our learning - imho, that was enough to diffuse the personal impact the gospels were meant to have on a Christian. The "hey, i live in the grace period, as vp said in PFAL - all i have to do is love god and neighbor and i can do as i fool well please."
~~
2. another insidious obstacle that stifled a genuine Christian experience was the whole forbidden-zone-Advanced-Class-based-fear-of-another-Jesus thing as Socks mentioned in an earlier post. and this represents a more serious detriment to growth, because i feel the Christian life is more about a relationship with a person than any scholarship with a book....
this is the don't-even-think-about-it control technique. i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian. Certainly not the homogenized, cookie-cutter standard institutionalized by TWI - the ideal "renewed mind hero", walking moment by moment in the ineffable greatness of PFAL.
~~
edited to prove that nothing is ineditable......or is that inedible?......whatever, the typo was just eating a hole in my head.
~~
here's your post:
....
quote: perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith.
For our learning does not equal for our ignoring. What do you do with differences like 1 ...
John 7:38,39 - ...for the holy ghost was not yet given... and...
Romans 5:5 - and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost which is given unto us.
Back in John and the other gospels, Jesus did many mighty works, yet there was no hope for us, no love of God shed abroad in our hearts, no holy ghost. Nobody could do the "greater works than these" in the gospels, either. Even LCM used to say that the gospels were written to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God.2
quote: i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian.
So Romans 10:9,10 is just for Paul, not for the whole church??? 3 I have 3 kids. They respond differently to the input my wife and I give them. We have to treat them as individuals, but they all live on the same planet, same house, same high school, same fellowships of believers, same a lot of things, and, for the time, have to go through the same me and my wife for many of their needs. We are all called to be in the same body of Christ. That just sounds like your excuse not to submit to the written word.4
1. i NEVER said TWI mentality ignored the gospels [reader please refer to my post] - the gospels got demoted by vp's emphasis of the epistles and Acts. he covers in PFAL how people usually hold the gospels "way up here and the epistles are way down here somewhere". i don't have a problem with any differences of events or developments of theology in books of the Bible. it does not change the basic Christian lifestyle. My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace.
2. i prefer to go with what the writer says is the purpose of a book. for instance, John 20:31 states the purpose of John's gospel " but these have been written in this book so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." NASB ......it doesn't say anything about being addressed to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God. .....odd, didn't vp in PFAL remind students to just read what's written? LCM did take the class, right?
3. the basic message preached in the book of Acts was twofold: Jesus is Lord and He is risen. That was out there from day one of the church - long before Romans 10:9 & 10 was written...... if i hear someone say they're trying to follow Jesus as well as develop a deep relationship with Him - it seems reasonable to assume that not only does the person feel Jesus has some kind of influence over his life [i.e. Jesus is Lord] but also believes Jesus is alive and well. i think many TWI followers have such a wooden interpretation of scripture - that they tend to have pigeonhole theology. i think someone is wasting their time being concerned with using Romans 10:9 & 10 as a litmus test for judging if the faith of others is genuine - the first epistle of John would be a better starting point for self-examination instead - see the latter part of #4 below.
4. i really don't get what your point is here - but i'll attempt a response anyway. first off, refer back to the latter part of my reply #1 - vp is the one who promoted cheap grace so he did not have to submit to God, Jesus Christ, the written word, social mores or anything else that threatened to encroach on his sociopath lifestyle.
secondly,while John 15 and 16 describe a very deep and personal communion in the relationship of each believer and Christ - it also alludes to the transforming power in that relationship - for ex. John 15:1-3 "I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit." NASB.....
the gospel of John was written to introduce people to Jesus Christ - the first epistle of John addresses those who want to strengthen their relationship with Jesus Christ with a get-back-to-basics-of-the-faith theme while describing the dynamics involved with spiritual growth: genuine faith in Jesus brings forth submission to His commands; obeying Him issues in love for God and others.
The Christian faith isn't about us, our prayers answered, or our best life now. . . trading in one lifestyle for another doesn't make something a genuine Christian experience. We all did that in one way or another. Abrupt personality change?
For each of us the time is surely coming when we shall have nothing but God. Health and wealth and friends and hiding places will all be swept away, and we shall have only God. To the man of pseudo faith that is a terrifying thought, but to real faith it is one of the most comforting thoughts the heart can entertain. A.W.Tozer
True enough, but I think the quote is "sincerity is no guarantee for truth" and "it's not true because you experienced it; it's true because the word says it". Something like that.
quote: Wierwille is clearly implying here that no God is needed for the so-called law of believing to come into play.
Consider the centurion in Matt. 8:5-13. This centurion recognized that Jesus had authority. He humbled himself by saying he wasn't worthy for Jesus to come under his roof, but he made no mention of God; he just wanted Jesus to heal his servant. Jesus praised him for his faith, saying he hadn't seen such faith in all Israel. The centurion's servant was healed "as thou hast believed", not as thou hast recognized God.
quote: For me, it's never stopped, I'll say that. Anyone who wonders where the good times went is on a different train. Can't be more blunt than that. If the Advanced Class material helps, fine but I'd suggest don't get stuck on trying to come up with the right "formula" for success or tagged with losers that want to redo something that's already been done. It's either real and now or it isn't. Everything else can be bought and sold but the things of God in action won't be bagged.
Are you saying that from man's point of view it's always going to be hit and miss? You say formula, I say strategy. What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people?
quote: I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI.
Sounds like you had personal issues that were separate from VP or twi, yet, that twi couldn't or wouldn't help you with. I'm glad those got resolved for you. Praise God, and to a lesser extent, whoever God worked through to help you.
quote: the basic message preached in the book of Acts was twofold: Jesus is Lord and He is risen. That was out there from day one of the church - long before Romans 10:9 & 10 was written..
Jesus is Lord to those who consent, at least in this life. Romans 10:9 tells specifically what to consent to.
quote: My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace.
He did no such thing. Grace is not cheap. It cost God His son. If it weren't for what Jesus did in the gospels, there would be no epistles. Again, in the gospels the holy spirit was not yet given, but in the epistles it IS given. But you're not impressed? Grace is only as "cheap" as you make it.
quote:
For each of us the time is surely coming when we shall have nothing but God.
....quote: My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace.
He did no such thing. Grace is not cheap. It cost God His son. If it weren't for what Jesus did in the gospels, there would be no epistles. Again, in the gospels the holy spirit was not yet given, but in the epistles it IS given. But you're not impressed? Grace is only as "cheap" as you make it....
at least we're in agreement on that.... "Cheap grace" is from a Christian classic "The Cost of Discipleship" by a German theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
...cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ....
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
Costly grace...is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Consider the centurion in Matt. 8:5-13. This centurion recognized that Jesus had authority. He humbled himself by saying he wasn't worthy for Jesus to come under his roof, but he made no mention of God; he just wanted Jesus to heal his servant. Jesus praised him for his faith, saying he hadn't seen such faith in all Israel. The centurion's servant was healed "as thou hast believed", not as thou hast recognized God.
He was recognizing God....that is the whole point.
The centurion said, I too am one under authority....do you think the centurion was recognizing Jesus having authority from one other than God? That is what the Pharisees said....they eventually said that Jesus power came from Satan. The centurion didn't have faith in his own believing...he verbally expressed his faith in Jesus...whose authority comes from God! As we know, Jesus was known to have claimed this a few times.
You have yet again, missed the ENTIRE point of what is written.
Jesus is Lord to those who consent, at least in this life. Romans 10:9 tells specifically what to consent to.
When I pray, I have nothing but God RIGHT NOW!
Jesus is Lord period. That is the gospel message. We don't make Him Lord by consent...we recognize Him by grace and Roman's 10: 9 & 10 is only a potion of the gospel, it is not a magic formula.
What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people?
Nothing on face value, johnster.
People are basically the same but an audience changes. The performance analogy - a performer may have the same songs/jokes whatever but will change the act per the audience. Heavily scripted and executed performances are "shows" - show the stuff, the audience comes because they know what to expect and like that.
That's also true of religious endeavors - while ritual is useful, it's not the only tool in the box.
Based on what I saw 40+ years ago and shortly after, doing a redo isn't effective, particularly when it comes to "the things of God".
Let God do the redo, you/we provide the faith and focus.
I know - everyone does it that's what everyone does-don't we have to retain and execute basic principles and methods, etc. etc. yada yaya?
That's what most everyone does. Look around where we're at and the rate of success-
You asked the question honestly as I would - what changed?
Something ain't workin' if that's the question.
Just sayin' - doing the same thing but expecting different results is....?
Consider the centurion in Matt. 8:5-13. This centurion recognized that Jesus had authority. He humbled himself by saying he wasn't worthy for Jesus to come under his roof, but he made no mention of God; he just wanted Jesus to heal his servant. Jesus praised him for his faith, saying he hadn't seen such faith in all Israel. The centurion's servant was healed "as thou hast believed", not as thou hast recognized God.
You are missing the point people are making in differentiating the "law of believing" with a Christ- based faith. You are also missing the point of the scripture section.
Jesus praised the centurion for the latter. The guy, due to his military background and understanding of how authority works, was able to completely trust in the authority of Jesus Christ as a representative of God to heal his servant. That was what Jesus did not see in Israel, and that was the catalyst to the healing.
It was not the centurion's mastery of the mental gymnastics of applying mind pictures like a camera. That is more like "The Secret". The Secret and the law of believing is a counterfeit. It just states to focus on "really, really convincing yourself you really, really want something, and if you really really want it bad enough you'll get it". Jesus confronts this type of mentality on the sermon on the mount - asking who among you can add a cubit to their stature?
To simplify it for you, the key to the power is Jesus Christ, not the guy's mental gymnastics.
re you saying that from man's point of view it's always going to be hit and miss? You say formula, I say strategy. What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people?
a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Sounds like you had personal issues that were separate from VP or twi, yet, that twi couldn't or wouldn't help you with. I'm glad those got resolved for you. Praise God, and to a lesser extent, whoever God worked through to help you.
I know people with calamity right now that say their issues were their own and not the ministry's. While taking accountability for your life and fixing things is admirable, if these same people don't come to the accurate realization of what a cult did to impact their lives, then they are fools ripe for the picking of the next flim-flam artist that comes along.
He did no such thing. Grace is not cheap. It cost God His son. If it weren't for what Jesus did in the gospels, there would be no epistles. Again, in the gospels the holy spirit was not yet given, but in the epistles it IS given. But you're not impressed? Grace is only as "cheap" as you make it.
Nobody made grace cheaper than VPW with his plagiarism, sexual sins, and standing himself up to be "The Teacher" in place of Jesus Christ.
quote: He was recognizing God....that is the whole point.
It doesn't say that. Did that centurion believe in the God of Israel? Or did he see Jesus heal other people, thus know it was available, and make a point of finding out if he could also receive it?
Look! I'm in total agreement that you can't just point your believing raygun at anything you want to and, zap, the situation is under control. I don't think that's what VP taught, either, I think many twi people inferred that, often through a well meaning twig coordinator or somebody else, but no, you can't just "believe" for anything you want; you need God's direct help for some stuff.
I think VP called it a "law" because, like, say, the law of gravity, God set that up from creation and doesn't have to be directly involved for stuff to fall to the earth that's lighter than air or whatever. You can get positive results by being a positive thinker; everybody knows that. God doesn't have to be directly involved, that IS like a scientific law.
But to get some results, you need God to get directly involved. Never hurts to just ASK Him, does it? I had something happen in 1998 that still blows my mind to think about. It was the first halloween in our then house in Michigan. I had just finished walking to houses around the neighborhood trick or treating with my then 9 year old daughter. It was fun. If you don't want to participate in halloween you keep your porch light off so people know not to come to your house, right?
We got all this candy ready and my daughter was eagerly anticipating having people come to our house, but the porch light at our house would only come on by motion detector. If you didn't come close enough to the house, then it wouldn't come on. You couldn't just have it on solid for some reason. So NOBODY came trick or treating to our house. This was upsetting to my daughter; she started crying.
By now it's 9:30PM, usually too late to expect trick or treaters anyway, but I said to her, "Why don't you pray for God to send somebody here". She did so feebly still feeling down. Five minutes passed. Nothing. So we went inside. Two minutes later, 2 people were outside our door. Fortunately my daughter hadn't started changing out of her costume yet. I called her, handed her the big bowl with the candy in it, and pointed outside. Voila!
When Jesus turned water into wine, there were no lives at stake, like when Moses parted the Red Sea. The only thing at stake was that acquaintences of Mary didn't have enough wine and would be embarrassed socially. God still went to work, didn't he? I posted the halloween incident years ago and sure enough some self righteous GSer mocked the idea that God would send someone to my house just to comfort my daughter. I replied "if my God was as small as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one" which was a VP quote. Like I said, it never hurts to just ask Him for stuff.
Another mistake that some twiers did was to judge people for "not believing". VP did this, I know. Jesus did it too, but not as a permanent condemnation, rather as a 'you're not where you need to be yet' observation. Someone who was in residence at Emporia once posted that he got reproved because a drunk driver rode over some shrubbery late at night when that person was on bless patrol. "Why didn't you believe to avoid that????" That is LOL material.
When VP said believing works for saint and sinner alike, he obviously wasn't referring to ALL believing; he was referring to positive thinking type of believing which CAN work without God getting directly involved. If you think about it, you'll never believe something which requires God's direct involvement (moving a mountain, cursing a fig tree, getting someone to come to your house after 9:30PM on halloween night, etc.) if you can't or won't believe something that doesn't require God's direct involvement. The 'mental gymnastics' are the same, the difference is that either God has to be directly involved or He doesn't.
That centurion? Yes, God had to be directly involved. Jesus knew that, but did the centurion? Not necessarily. Jesus was his contact point; he believed Jesus could do it, but did he understand fully that Jesus could do nothing of himself, that God was Jesus' sufficiency? It doesn't say; all it says is that the centurion BELIEVED! Voila!
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hiway29
I have to say that in my experience, sitting through pfal over an absurd 50 times, 'instructing' 2 classes, 'undersheperding' I forget how many people,-the overwhelming atmosphere through the vast ma
Broken Arrow
Well, for starters Jesus lives in those who are born again, "Christ in you..."; He is also with us, "I am with you always" and "I will never leave you or forsake you", he is seated at the right hand
socks
I don't understand why anyone (like the examples you gave johniam) would follow the same series format as PFAL or would have something like an "advanced class". Advanced - compared to what? At what?
So_crates
You mean go, stand, speak Saint Vic's Word. Be proactive and make Saint Vic mountains of cash.
SoCrates
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chockfull
The "growth periods" of TWI were basically during the years 1972 - 1984, mostly centered around riding the zeitgeist of the Jesus movement, and were also centered around distinct individual personalities where people who were genuine Christians functioned. In every case, VP rode in on a white horse, replaced these individuals with his trained "Corps" who he had spent 2 years indoctrinating on the farm, and took over the increase. In other cases, some people went through the Corps training and maintained by the grace of God somewhat of a genuine Christian life, so they were able to do some good.
What stands out is the following:
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
You cannot counterfeit a true foundation. And when men try to build upon a different foundation, their works crumble.
TWI rapidly became every bit as legalistic as Jerusalem circa 60's AD. And did so rapidly after any succession in leadership. Anything built around the cult of personality of one man or woman will do so.
That's what's at the root of this, not the lack of motivation for twiggies to accost people in malls.
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Broken Arrow
No, I don't agree with you (shocked?). Seriously, Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible is different from the Jesus Christ taught in TWI. Moreover, they way we were taught in TWI to relate to Messiah is different than how it's taught in the Bible. TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life. Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so. It took me a long time to work this through, not that I've mastered anything.
Today, I have no use for the Advanced Class or anything else taught by TWI. I am grateful, though, that in TWI I learned the order of the books of the Bible. That is the only thing I learned that is of any worth.
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So_crates
The only thing I got from Da Vey is I can hold my own in bibical discussions.
SoCrates
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johniam
quote:
Heavy emphasis on the law of believing, name it and claim it concepts. E.W. Kenyon is one of the originators. Much of it resembles the first few sessions of PFAL (IMO).
The so called law of believing has been misunderstood. If you have the word of God, THEN you can believe (with action) and it shall come to pass, like Jesus said. Believing, however, is not this 'raygun' that you can just shoot at any situation and magically make it right. If that were true, then no God IS needed.
I know that VP wondered late in his life where his believing had failed; why he was in that situation, but I doubt that he himself thought of believing as a 'raygun' in every day stuff. You think I believe everything he ever said just because he said it? No.
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Broken Arrow
That's not the way I remember it. I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed. He blamed the situation on someone else.
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T-Bone
i think you've given a nice & concise summary of what the differences were.....
and if i could add a detail or two....
1. perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith. while they sugar coated it and said it's for our learning - imho, that was enough to diffuse the personal impact the gospels were meant to have on a Christian. The "hey, i live in the grace period, as vp said in PFAL - all i have to do is love god and neighbor and i can do as i fool well please."
~~
2. another insidious obstacle that stifled a genuine Christian experience was the whole forbidden-zone-Advanced-Class-based-fear-of-another-Jesus thing as Socks mentioned in an earlier post. and this represents a more serious detriment to growth, because i feel the Christian life is more about a relationship with a person than any scholarship with a book....
this is the don't-even-think-about-it control technique. i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian. Certainly not the homogenized, cookie-cutter standard institutionalized by TWI - the ideal "renewed mind hero", walking moment by moment in the ineffable greatness of PFAL.
~~
edited to prove that nothing is ineditable......or is that inedible?......whatever, the typo was just eating a hole in my head.
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waysider
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike".
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johniam
quote: That's what's at the root of this, not the lack of motivation for twiggies to accost people in malls.
So Jesus "accosted" the woman at the well?
quote: I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed.
I don't recall this; did he say it to way corps only? All I remember was the 2 SIT alerts.
quote:
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike".
I don't recall anything about a raygun.
quote: Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so.
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. How did yours get broken? Did you stop getting prayers answered, or have you just followed the crowd and decided pfal CAN'T be the word of God because VP wasn't perfect?
quote: TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life.
How? As for me, before twi I was miserable when I wasn't high. After twi, I have peace in my heart, I get prayers answered, I can keep jobs, my family, though skeptical, is clearly impressed with how I changed, not just for a short time, for thirty plus years, it hasn't stopped! If that isn't a "true Christian experience" then it doesn't exist. Just how, practically, is the difference like day and night in your life, because my experience is the other way around.
quote: perhaps this is one biblical explanation by way of what they avoided: with TWI's misconception of the importance of the gospels [stating they are NOT addressed to us] places a strategic detour in the path of a Christian's developing faith.
For our learning does not equal for our ignoring. What do you do with differences like...
John 7:38,39 - ...for the holy ghost was not yet given... and...
Romans 5:5 - and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost which is given unto us.
Back in John and the other gospels, Jesus did many mighty works, yet there was no hope for us, no love of God shed abroad in our hearts, no holy ghost. Nobody could do the "greater works than these" in the gospels, either. Even LCM used to say that the gospels were written to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God.
quote: i certainly have a loooooong way to go in this Christian journey but i tend to believe the truly transforming experience of trying to follow Jesus Christ....to commune with Him.....is a deeply personal experience - that is different for every Christian.
So Romans 10:9,10 is just for Paul, not for the whole church??? I have 3 kids. They respond differently to the input my wife and I give them. We have to treat them as individuals, but they all live on the same planet, same house, same high school, same fellowships of believers, same a lot of things, and, for the time, have to go through the same me and my wife for many of their needs. We are all called to be in the same body of Christ. That just sounds like your excuse not to submit to the written word.
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excathedra
EXPERIENCE IS NO GUARANTEE FOR TRUTH lol
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waysider
John said:
The so called law of believing has been misunderstood. If you have the word of God, THEN you can believe (with action) and it shall come to pass, like Jesus said. Believing, however, is not this 'raygun' that you can just shoot at any situation and magically make it right. If that were true, then no God IS needed.
waysider said:
You must not have the same PFAL book as me. Mine says "it works for saint and sinner alike"
John said:
I don't recall anything about a raygun.
waysider responds:
Nor do I. In fact, I never mentioned a ray-gun----you did.
-------------------------------------------------
PFAL
page 32
The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in The Word, it is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike.
-------------------------------------------------
So there you have it. In The Way, "born again believers" were referred to as saints and "natural-man unbelievers" were referred to as sinners. Wierwille is clearly implying here that no God is needed for the so-called law of believing to come into play.
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socks
"I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?"
If you mean why it became flat as a board and equally boring, that reflects several things IMO - "outreach" is the product of reaching out and having something you want to reach out with. I'm not talking about a "product" you sell or promote either but the natural expression of what someone is going through at that time.
Early on as well as later too what really had tangible value was an authentic change in people's lives that showed, spilled over and out to others.
You don't have to tell people to laugh when something's funny or to cry when something's sad - the response and reaction to those kinds of things are validations of realities that are experienced and real. Hear a room full of people laughing uproariously and you want to peek in and see what's so funny and they want to pass the humor on. It's real, spontaneous, authentic.
Read the gospels and it's obvious - when something really happens the lid pops off everyone's top. No one has any problem talking about it.
Over the years many ex-Wayfers have tried to blame someone or something for why 'it" dribbled off - to which I'd have to answer turn the mirror around instead of pointing it at someone else and you have your answer staring at you. They talk about it like it's always someones lack of believing or following some leader or getting too this or not enough that. That's stupid IMO. And by all appearances the Way Nash wouldn't know a miracle unless it showed up in their horn of plenty Sunday night. They're a great model for revival - just look at what they do and don't do that, do anything else.
It's like riding a bike - As soon as you stop and start counting how many times the wheel turns to go forward you start to wobble. Just ride the dammed bike, y'know? Every kid learns that early on in life but we forget..
And kids were the population of the Way - teens. 20 somethings were the adults for years there. All that energy, diversity, given a little fuel - bam! Worst thing you can do is try to put a lid on it, regiment it, orchestrate and manufacture it. File that under "buzz kill" in the dictionary.
For me, it's never stopped, I'll say that. Anyone who wonders where the good times went is on a different train. Can't be more blunt than that. If the Advanced Class material helps, fine but I'd suggest don't get stuck on trying to come up with the right "formula" for success or tagged with losers that want to redo something that's already been done. It's either real and now or it isn't. Everything else can be bought and sold but the things of God in action won't be bagged.
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Broken Arrow
quote: I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed.
I don't recall this; did he say it to way corps only? All I remember was the 2 SIT alerts.
Geer quoted him as saying that in Passing of a Patriarch.
quote: Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so.
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. How did yours get broken? Did you stop getting prayers answered, or have you just followed the crowd and decided pfal CAN'T be the word of God because VP wasn't perfect?
Oh, but it is very broken. How did mine get broken? How did my what get broken? As far as your question, "did you stop getting your prayers answered....?" No, not really. I mean there were some prayers God didn't answer like I wanted Him to, but I had prayers answered. Much the same as when I was involved in the Methodist Church, God answered prayers then too. Now, as far as the rest of your "either or" question, "...did I just follow a crowd....?" That's a good question. It's not very well put and it exposes your deceit, but it's a good question. Let's see, I definitely followed a crowd when I got into TWI because I had friends that were in. I definitely went along with things while in because I wanted to be liked. There came a time when I had a major moral failure, and I realized I was in great need of help. Especially after my wife of 10 years chose to end our marriage and demand I move out of the house. My daughter was 9 years old. In the face of this failure and ruin, I didn't claim a verse in the Bible and say, "I've been forgiven!" "The past doesn't matter!" "There is no condemnation!" No, for the first time in years I asked God for help and he met me where I was and healed me. I didn't do that in TWI, I learned to claim a verse, or focus on what I wanted and make sure my needs and wants were parallel and all that crap as if I knew better than God what I needed. This time, I cried out to a Father and he reached for me. Today I'm in my right mind, I'm secure in my own sexuality, I'm remarried, and I have a very very good relationship with my daughter who will be 25 next month. So, if I did follow a crowd, I didn't stay out because of a crowd. I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI. It was only later I found out about the sexual exploits and dishonesty of V.P. Oh, and the verses I earlier quoted became more real to me then they had ever been. It's a partnership with God, it's not me managing my own sanctification.
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waysider
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T-Bone
i'm curious about something Johniam - do you not know how to do multiple quotes? i think it would help decipher the content of your posts - who is saying what.....anyway, i've included my post from which you made comments so readers don't have to jump back and forth and so i don't have to repeat myself.
within your post i have changed your words to red and posted a superscript number at the end - which corresponds to my numbered response so readers will know what i am addressing. your quotes from my post i left in black.
i'll try to make my comments as brief as possible
I said:
~~
here's your post:
1. i NEVER said TWI mentality ignored the gospels [reader please refer to my post] - the gospels got demoted by vp's emphasis of the epistles and Acts. he covers in PFAL how people usually hold the gospels "way up here and the epistles are way down here somewhere". i don't have a problem with any differences of events or developments of theology in books of the Bible. it does not change the basic Christian lifestyle. My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace.
2. i prefer to go with what the writer says is the purpose of a book. for instance, John 20:31 states the purpose of John's gospel " but these have been written in this book so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." NASB ......it doesn't say anything about being addressed to mature believers to show how Jesus walked with God. .....odd, didn't vp in PFAL remind students to just read what's written? LCM did take the class, right?
3. the basic message preached in the book of Acts was twofold: Jesus is Lord and He is risen. That was out there from day one of the church - long before Romans 10:9 & 10 was written...... if i hear someone say they're trying to follow Jesus as well as develop a deep relationship with Him - it seems reasonable to assume that not only does the person feel Jesus has some kind of influence over his life [i.e. Jesus is Lord] but also believes Jesus is alive and well. i think many TWI followers have such a wooden interpretation of scripture - that they tend to have pigeonhole theology. i think someone is wasting their time being concerned with using Romans 10:9 & 10 as a litmus test for judging if the faith of others is genuine - the first epistle of John would be a better starting point for self-examination instead - see the latter part of #4 below.
4. i really don't get what your point is here - but i'll attempt a response anyway. first off, refer back to the latter part of my reply #1 - vp is the one who promoted cheap grace so he did not have to submit to God, Jesus Christ, the written word, social mores or anything else that threatened to encroach on his sociopath lifestyle.
secondly,while John 15 and 16 describe a very deep and personal communion in the relationship of each believer and Christ - it also alludes to the transforming power in that relationship - for ex. John 15:1-3 "I am the true vine and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit." NASB.....
the gospel of John was written to introduce people to Jesus Christ - the first epistle of John addresses those who want to strengthen their relationship with Jesus Christ with a get-back-to-basics-of-the-faith theme while describing the dynamics involved with spiritual growth: genuine faith in Jesus brings forth submission to His commands; obeying Him issues in love for God and others.
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geisha779
The Christian faith isn't about us, our prayers answered, or our best life now. . . trading in one lifestyle for another doesn't make something a genuine Christian experience. We all did that in one way or another. Abrupt personality change?
For each of us the time is surely coming when we shall have nothing but God. Health and wealth and friends and hiding places will all be swept away, and we shall have only God. To the man of pseudo faith that is a terrifying thought, but to real faith it is one of the most comforting thoughts the heart can entertain. A.W.Tozer
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johniam
quote: EXPERIENCE IS NO GUARANTEE FOR TRUTH
True enough, but I think the quote is "sincerity is no guarantee for truth" and "it's not true because you experienced it; it's true because the word says it". Something like that.
quote: Wierwille is clearly implying here that no God is needed for the so-called law of believing to come into play.
Consider the centurion in Matt. 8:5-13. This centurion recognized that Jesus had authority. He humbled himself by saying he wasn't worthy for Jesus to come under his roof, but he made no mention of God; he just wanted Jesus to heal his servant. Jesus praised him for his faith, saying he hadn't seen such faith in all Israel. The centurion's servant was healed "as thou hast believed", not as thou hast recognized God.
quote: For me, it's never stopped, I'll say that. Anyone who wonders where the good times went is on a different train. Can't be more blunt than that. If the Advanced Class material helps, fine but I'd suggest don't get stuck on trying to come up with the right "formula" for success or tagged with losers that want to redo something that's already been done. It's either real and now or it isn't. Everything else can be bought and sold but the things of God in action won't be bagged.
Are you saying that from man's point of view it's always going to be hit and miss? You say formula, I say strategy. What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people?
quote: I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI.
Sounds like you had personal issues that were separate from VP or twi, yet, that twi couldn't or wouldn't help you with. I'm glad those got resolved for you. Praise God, and to a lesser extent, whoever God worked through to help you.
quote: the basic message preached in the book of Acts was twofold: Jesus is Lord and He is risen. That was out there from day one of the church - long before Romans 10:9 & 10 was written..
Jesus is Lord to those who consent, at least in this life. Romans 10:9 tells specifically what to consent to.
quote: My point on this was that vp played the epistles against the gospels with his distorted message of cheap grace.
He did no such thing. Grace is not cheap. It cost God His son. If it weren't for what Jesus did in the gospels, there would be no epistles. Again, in the gospels the holy spirit was not yet given, but in the epistles it IS given. But you're not impressed? Grace is only as "cheap" as you make it.
quote:
For each of us the time is surely coming when we shall have nothing but God.
When I pray, I have nothing but God RIGHT NOW!
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T-Bone
at least we're in agreement on that.... "Cheap grace" is from a Christian classic "The Cost of Discipleship" by a German theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
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geisha779
The irony....
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
Costly grace...is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer in The Cost of Discipleship
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geisha779
He was recognizing God....that is the whole point.
The centurion said, I too am one under authority....do you think the centurion was recognizing Jesus having authority from one other than God? That is what the Pharisees said....they eventually said that Jesus power came from Satan. The centurion didn't have faith in his own believing...he verbally expressed his faith in Jesus...whose authority comes from God! As we know, Jesus was known to have claimed this a few times.
You have yet again, missed the ENTIRE point of what is written.
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geisha779
Jesus is Lord period. That is the gospel message. We don't make Him Lord by consent...we recognize Him by grace and Roman's 10: 9 & 10 is only a potion of the gospel, it is not a magic formula.
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socks
What's wrong with trying to redo something that blessed a lot of people?
Nothing on face value, johnster.
People are basically the same but an audience changes. The performance analogy - a performer may have the same songs/jokes whatever but will change the act per the audience. Heavily scripted and executed performances are "shows" - show the stuff, the audience comes because they know what to expect and like that.
That's also true of religious endeavors - while ritual is useful, it's not the only tool in the box.
Based on what I saw 40+ years ago and shortly after, doing a redo isn't effective, particularly when it comes to "the things of God".
Let God do the redo, you/we provide the faith and focus.
I know - everyone does it that's what everyone does-don't we have to retain and execute basic principles and methods, etc. etc. yada yaya?
That's what most everyone does. Look around where we're at and the rate of success-
You asked the question honestly as I would - what changed?
Something ain't workin' if that's the question.
Just sayin' - doing the same thing but expecting different results is....?
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chockfull
You are missing the point people are making in differentiating the "law of believing" with a Christ- based faith. You are also missing the point of the scripture section.
Jesus praised the centurion for the latter. The guy, due to his military background and understanding of how authority works, was able to completely trust in the authority of Jesus Christ as a representative of God to heal his servant. That was what Jesus did not see in Israel, and that was the catalyst to the healing.
It was not the centurion's mastery of the mental gymnastics of applying mind pictures like a camera. That is more like "The Secret". The Secret and the law of believing is a counterfeit. It just states to focus on "really, really convincing yourself you really, really want something, and if you really really want it bad enough you'll get it". Jesus confronts this type of mentality on the sermon on the mount - asking who among you can add a cubit to their stature?
To simplify it for you, the key to the power is Jesus Christ, not the guy's mental gymnastics.
a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
I know people with calamity right now that say their issues were their own and not the ministry's. While taking accountability for your life and fixing things is admirable, if these same people don't come to the accurate realization of what a cult did to impact their lives, then they are fools ripe for the picking of the next flim-flam artist that comes along.
Nobody made grace cheaper than VPW with his plagiarism, sexual sins, and standing himself up to be "The Teacher" in place of Jesus Christ.
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johniam
quote: He was recognizing God....that is the whole point.
It doesn't say that. Did that centurion believe in the God of Israel? Or did he see Jesus heal other people, thus know it was available, and make a point of finding out if he could also receive it?
Look! I'm in total agreement that you can't just point your believing raygun at anything you want to and, zap, the situation is under control. I don't think that's what VP taught, either, I think many twi people inferred that, often through a well meaning twig coordinator or somebody else, but no, you can't just "believe" for anything you want; you need God's direct help for some stuff.
I think VP called it a "law" because, like, say, the law of gravity, God set that up from creation and doesn't have to be directly involved for stuff to fall to the earth that's lighter than air or whatever. You can get positive results by being a positive thinker; everybody knows that. God doesn't have to be directly involved, that IS like a scientific law.
But to get some results, you need God to get directly involved. Never hurts to just ASK Him, does it? I had something happen in 1998 that still blows my mind to think about. It was the first halloween in our then house in Michigan. I had just finished walking to houses around the neighborhood trick or treating with my then 9 year old daughter. It was fun. If you don't want to participate in halloween you keep your porch light off so people know not to come to your house, right?
We got all this candy ready and my daughter was eagerly anticipating having people come to our house, but the porch light at our house would only come on by motion detector. If you didn't come close enough to the house, then it wouldn't come on. You couldn't just have it on solid for some reason. So NOBODY came trick or treating to our house. This was upsetting to my daughter; she started crying.
By now it's 9:30PM, usually too late to expect trick or treaters anyway, but I said to her, "Why don't you pray for God to send somebody here". She did so feebly still feeling down. Five minutes passed. Nothing. So we went inside. Two minutes later, 2 people were outside our door. Fortunately my daughter hadn't started changing out of her costume yet. I called her, handed her the big bowl with the candy in it, and pointed outside. Voila!
When Jesus turned water into wine, there were no lives at stake, like when Moses parted the Red Sea. The only thing at stake was that acquaintences of Mary didn't have enough wine and would be embarrassed socially. God still went to work, didn't he? I posted the halloween incident years ago and sure enough some self righteous GSer mocked the idea that God would send someone to my house just to comfort my daughter. I replied "if my God was as small as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one" which was a VP quote. Like I said, it never hurts to just ask Him for stuff.
Another mistake that some twiers did was to judge people for "not believing". VP did this, I know. Jesus did it too, but not as a permanent condemnation, rather as a 'you're not where you need to be yet' observation. Someone who was in residence at Emporia once posted that he got reproved because a drunk driver rode over some shrubbery late at night when that person was on bless patrol. "Why didn't you believe to avoid that????" That is LOL material.
When VP said believing works for saint and sinner alike, he obviously wasn't referring to ALL believing; he was referring to positive thinking type of believing which CAN work without God getting directly involved. If you think about it, you'll never believe something which requires God's direct involvement (moving a mountain, cursing a fig tree, getting someone to come to your house after 9:30PM on halloween night, etc.) if you can't or won't believe something that doesn't require God's direct involvement. The 'mental gymnastics' are the same, the difference is that either God has to be directly involved or He doesn't.
That centurion? Yes, God had to be directly involved. Jesus knew that, but did the centurion? Not necessarily. Jesus was his contact point; he believed Jesus could do it, but did he understand fully that Jesus could do nothing of himself, that God was Jesus' sufficiency? It doesn't say; all it says is that the centurion BELIEVED! Voila!
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