I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.
In VPs AC he read lots of OT records of prophets doing the healings, but no outpouring in the here and now. I can't write the teacher anymore, but I can write this.
I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam.
The AC had little to do with specific outreach in the Way IMO. In the earliest days of the "ministry" in California, pre-PFAL and post PFAL, people spread the Word about Jesus Christ as a personal savior and what that meant "one-to-one". It simply happened because people wanted to talk about it.
If it's miracles you want to see, and it's the PFAL series you look at then the verse that speaks the loudest (if not the clearest) is Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they" etc.
A lot of the Way's methodology developed from the interpretation of that verse to mean - those who believe to do those things, or some things, or something, in His name, will then do those things and others too. IE - signs will follow those who believe to perform those signs.
The object of the belief - to perform signs in the name of Jesus Christ.
Okay, we see Jesus clearly speaking about these kinds of things in the gospels, but the verse in Mark is better understood when read - follow them that believe in my Name.........................................those who do believe in my name will do these kinds of things.
It's not the things that are important or the focus. It's believing in Jesus Christ. His name is important and represents a reality and construct in the Kingdom of God that can be understood "in His name".
The stuff follows the lives of those who believe - notice all of the "miracles" that we read of Jesus - feeding hungry people. The feeding was to - well, feed them. It wasn't to perform a miracle.
Healing a lame person, something wrong with their legs - you got a guy who can't walk. Walking with good legs would be nice. The miracle did something for the man that needed to be done.
Of course - the miracles stand alone and speak for themselves and would represent - what? Power?
The entire idea of "walking with power" - ie the AC - makes for a conundrum IMO if it focuses on doing things, performing miracles.
Nobody's going to snap their fingers and get a 1,000 loaves of Wonder Bread and a 100 boxes of fish sticks out of the blue. For that matter it won't happen simply because there's a hungry crowd.
It simply doesn't happen that way, and history has shown that to be absolutely true - those who insist on it end up like Benny Hinn and some of these other clowns. They're just off on another planet. They need a serious as s kicking although I doubt that would put a stop to their arena sized jerk-offs. They protect themselves from direct honest confrontation because when they are confronted directly the "power" goes up in smoke. My direct experience with people "like that" has been 100 per cent consistent in that outcome - nothing, nada, nuttin' happens no matter how much they wave their wands around. Nuttin'. It's b-s--t plain and simple and makes the message of believing in Jesus Christ look ridiculous. Frankly I'm surprised JC doesn't show up and smoke them just to preserve whatever dignity they might have once had but it appears we can have as much rope as we want to hang ourselves this go round.
Jesus is The Show. When the message and the focus veers from that it's over. It's much less of a "spiritual" thing than we think IMO. The events that support the message and the need occur - follow - the lives of those involved as they live them.
The best part of the AC was just reading the Bible a lot and getting a larger understanding of what God has done, can do and might very well do under certain circumstances. All I really learned from it was to "just do it". Speak the message and try to help others. Where there's great need there can be great deliverance in a diversity of ways.
If you're looking for support all I can say is yes - yes. S--t will happen. Why it does or doesn't at any specific time isn't my concern, at all.
quote: Maybe it's just me. When I see that jumbled mess, where you can't tell where one person's quote ends and the next person's quote begins, I lose my desire to consider the contents seriously.
quote: If someone really expected to be taken seriously, they would make an effort to make their posts more readable.
Well, maybe it's a debul spurt thing.
that reminds me of the eternity cologne slogan "i don't know where you end and i begin" ....now there was an enterprising person - instead of complaining about multiple sources quotes all run together - they just made an ad campaign out of it.
I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam.
I wanted to get some discussion going. Didn't really have a question. It's just something I ran through my mind lately; wanted to see what folks here might say about it.
I took twi's AC twice; once at Emporia and once in fall of '84 when they did classes for grads in local areas all over the country. Maybe GSC isn't the place, but I was actually hoping someone would say, "Oh, no! The AC connected with ME! Let me tell you about it....etc.". That kind of thing.
The only twi spinoff that I KNOW has an AC is John Hendricks' CRF. Chris Geer has one on the way, I'm told. CG plans to run his ACs in the local areas; not at a central location. John Hendricks' are all done at Destin, FL, near where he lived.
I can't really dispute anything you said. I think you make a good point about how doing the miracles was not about 'look at me, I have power' it was about 'there is a need here, how can I help'? Perhaps this should have been emphasized more.
As believers, as the church, as ambassadors for Christ, we were told we had the power (authority) to speak God's word any time anywhere. In scripture, sometimes it was 'in season/out of season' and sometimes it was 'the spirit suffered them not'. We were also told that the adversary hates us speaking the word more than anything. I agree.
You want a question? OK, here's a question.
What affect, if any, did taking the AC have on your speaking of the word? How long did this last?
In late August of '78 I brought my mother to a fellowship. We were in someone's back yard. The teacher that day was an early 20s girl who had just taken the AC. She was OK as a person/believer. But she began her teaching by screaming "who wants to be pope? who wants to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc.?" Whew. With slightly less volume she continued her teaching for a few minutes. Then it rained...HARD...enough to force everybody inside, the teaching was over. The rain lasted only a few minutes. I looked at her face later and it seemed like she KNEW what she had done. My mother wasn't very impressed. It was years later before I had the nerve to ask her to go to another fellowship.
The good part was... taking the AC made this girl aware that she, too, could speak God's word with authority. The bad part was...you don't need to blow up the house just to swat a mosquito in the kitchen. Just a glitch in technique, I guess.
I had 6 years to mull over this before taking the AC myself. My first day at work after the class was over, and, sure enough, I mauled this poor guy in the break room. Talked about the devil's armpit, yes I did. I, too, could speak the word with authority. This guy already knew I was a 'Jesus freak' and he didn't give me any weirder looks after that than before; didn't even try to avoid me, but my zeal didn't last long. I guess the 'urgency of the times' isn't a good enough excuse to 'serve' people.
In late August of '78 I brought my mother to a fellowship. We were in someone's back yard. The teacher that day was an early 20s girl who had just taken the AC. She was OK as a person/believer.
But she began her teaching by screaming "who wants to be pope? who wants to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc.?" ....
fyi - vp did that same teaching for years....until someone like LCM responded to his invitation.
I don't understand why anyone (like the examples you gave johniam) would follow the same series format as PFAL or would have something like an "advanced class".
Advanced - compared to what? At what?
I'm not being facetious. Jesus is often given as the example, teaching in parables and using metaphors with some but speaking more directly to those who had followed Him longer. Yet, His followers - not a one - actually understood His death or expected his resurrection.
A lot of effort is given to trying to prove that Jesus taught His closest followers some higher levels of "truth" - and yes, it's obvious He worked directly with those closest to Him and had a cadre of literal followers and 'believers' that He spoke freely with. Yet - and this is significant - not a single human being that we know of thought He was anything but very dead after His crucifixion and they all mourned His death, feeling the terrible loss. So whatever we think they knew it didn't "connect" until after His resurrection, which was completely outside of the realm of human effort or expectation. God and Jesus Christ - you got that and nothing else. They'd supposedly seen and heard it all, firsthand. Then - nothing.
The story goes that they came to life on the day of Pentecost - it appears that there was a very real event that caused The Light to turn on in their brains and souls. But the rest of the time they were milling around, getting organized, finding a replacement for Judas and working on - whatever. Given more time they might have started running classes for god's sake.
Again - the Holy Spirit unfolds reality to them and they see with new eyes "finally" one might say - that they were it. This was it. And that's all they were going to get - not that it wasn't grand or enough but some things appear to have connected on that day for them.
Again - a lot's made of them "being ready" and all of one accord and all of that - but doesn't it seem clear that yet again the "power" of the event had next to nothing to do with them or their paltry preparations? Of their own "accord" nothing was happening? They were doing good to remember to be present and accounted for. Serious yes, no doubt. But very much human beings.
Then - there's a "movement", the effort to spread the message of Jesus Christ comes alive.
"AC" has nothing do with it. People like you and lots of others sat through all of these classes twiddling their ears and hearing lots of bible. I was good at that too. But no, I don't think that specific kind of effort has anything to do with "outreach" that won't happen when a person is truly, deeply and individually changed and "connected" with God through Jesus Christ. As with all of the other records we read the moments of truth circle around an infinitely endless moment of reality that has all the subtlety of a train ripping down your door with nowhere to go but in.
That's all I know and can speak for. Quiet seas, raging waves, whichever - the water's of life have to engulf you one way or the other, where ever you're sitting or it's just another recitation of "the truth".
I would add this - for all the guffawing around the 'Vanced Class and others as being little more than organized b-s, the fact is that at that time a number of events occurred that were ground-establishing for me.
One involved ministering, praying for a friend who was sick at that time. I understood "Healing" was possible, he didn't say anything about what was wrong, so I prayed for him. I closed my eyes, put the ol' hands on his shoulders and immediately was filled with the image of his lungs.
I've seen pictures of lungs before-if asked i'd have probably drawn lungs as looking like little upside down kidney beans with tubes coming out of them or something. Lungs. These - his - looked like a medical photograph of lungs, I saw the image of his entire insides. Needless to say it was rather uh, disturbing in a way. Lungs don't look all that cool, and all of the rest of the stuff inside us looks kind of weird too, as I recall. The entire image was dark and etched. I prayed for him and - actually he went into the hospital a day later with some serious infections. I'm glad he did, he got cared for and recovered fully. But he was a sick dog that night. I certainly didn't "heal" him but I prayed for him and frankly wished he'd been healed that night but the progression of that illness was on it's own track - I do believe that the continued prayer and support contributed to his speedy recovery as they say. I do know I knew exactly what that guy's lungs looked like after that for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure I did the right thing but it did teach me to take time to ponder what something means, even after I think I know.
Another involved driving a group of us to the AC. We stopped at a gas station for a bio -break in Berkley, heading for the bridge on to Mill Valley (CA). I stayed in the car, pulled up in a side spot at a gas station. I'm sitting there waiting and get the urge to get out and look under the car. Why? No idea really - just look under the car. I did and got underneath thinking what they f-k am I doing this for and spot a small leak under the gas tank - no idea what had caused it but there it is - a little dent/hole and gas dripping out.
I know - gas smells. But it's 1971 and we're we're parked in a - gas station. It stinks gas. I didn't smell anything that made me want to look under the car.
I get up and go in and ask the guy in the shop to take a look - yup, that's a leak alright. He goes in and comes out with a bar of soap - tells me to rub it up into the hole to plug it - I did and the leak stopped. Everyone is back out by now. We talk and decide to go on to the AC and we'll deal with it the next day. He gave me the bar of soap. I checked it out couplet times later - plug held for the entire trip, next day got it in to get fixed.
There's another half a dozen things like that that occurred around that time of the AC - many before it and many more after it. In the long view it was a period of time that included the AC but didn't revolve around it. It was a long time ago but the movement was mostly like a fast ignition, slow burning long smoker. Still going, to be honest.
I don't "speak the Word" about these things to people like a recording. From time to time they have meaning in certain situations and I retell to them the things that I've lived that would have bearing on their own circumstance, things that to me bear witness to God and the reality of His existence and intentions for man. We're not anymore special than another, any one of us - we're all very special to God. In fact I bear witness to the fact that if me - then anyone.
I have no doubt that the continuous wonderfulness of life can be both more than overwhelming sometimes and serendipitous in it's ordinariness at others. It is what it is but if you loaded a chamber next to my ear and cocked it and said "Deny it" all I could really say is "see you in the next life - and you better bring a bigger gun". Cuz you're going to need it.
All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t.
All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t.
I remember when my wow training was over I felt pumped up, like I had a mission in life, like my life was important. This lasted a few weeks, too. It lasted until security kicked us off the U of MO Rolla campus. We witnessed there a lot. Late in the year our family coordinator said that the average wow in MO witnessed 1 hour per day. Not like it was a disgrace; more like it was reasonable, realistic.
How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization".
I agree that being part of a believing community can be fun. Sometimes it seemed like all the universe was in sync with twi.
How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization".
Well, quoting Hubbard won't get us far but I think I know what you mean.
I get the fear part of it and it effects most people more than they admit or even recognize.
It always feels better to be accepted and praised for what we say rather than be shot full of holes. Group think, peer pressure. Education. Ignorance. Fear of punishment, anticipation of rewards.
"Honesty" can be over rated too - I can be very honest while being very ill informed, misguided and even destructive. Code language today can leverage the appearance of honesty against the real thing by using phrases like
"As far as i know"
"As I understand it"
"It was told to me that"
"According to many sources"
Those statements can all be very true to fact but held forth or heard as if they're ironclad - and they're not. I hear them a lot when the real truth would be "I don't know". but that doesn't make it for some people.
So yeah, fear. Stuff. Wuddevah.
Peter Green sang it very well when he sang "Don't ask me what I think of you - I might not give the answer that you want me to".
Or put another way - be prepared for that instance when someone might not tell you that anything you do is okay because God is in the twinkle of every baby's eye and wrapped in the rainbow love bunnies that dance when we keep porpoise's out of our tuna cans - but might actually have something different to pin their beliefs on.
(however, and just to be clear and not to offend any PETA people, love bunny owners or babies, present, past or future including their parents or siblings, born or unborn - no porpoise were harmed in the production of this post. While I do not worship them as deities or even icons of lesser stature I really really do think they have a lot to teach us. Really).
Martindale redid all three classes....The Way of Abundance and Power
1996.....foundational
1997.....intermediate
1998.....advanced
Hmm.. Did he redo his own Adv Class? I could've sworn in '95 when I took it, it was his.. Still remember him walking down the aisle making jokes about how that was him on the screen and messing around with the group while i was trying to listen and felt like telling him to shut up so I could hear! lol.. As if I would.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
17
12
15
12
Popular Days
Mar 20
26
Mar 28
18
Mar 21
14
Mar 22
12
Top Posters In This Topic
johniam 17 posts
T-Bone 12 posts
geisha779 15 posts
waysider 12 posts
Popular Days
Mar 20 2011
26 posts
Mar 28 2011
18 posts
Mar 21 2011
14 posts
Mar 22 2011
12 posts
Popular Posts
hiway29
I have to say that in my experience, sitting through pfal over an absurd 50 times, 'instructing' 2 classes, 'undersheperding' I forget how many people,-the overwhelming atmosphere through the vast ma
Broken Arrow
Well, for starters Jesus lives in those who are born again, "Christ in you..."; He is also with us, "I am with you always" and "I will never leave you or forsake you", he is seated at the right hand
socks
I don't understand why anyone (like the examples you gave johniam) would follow the same series format as PFAL or would have something like an "advanced class". Advanced - compared to what? At what?
socks
I haven't seen any church or ministry other than twi that seemed to do a BETTER job of connecting with their people on this stuff, but I really think twi's advanced class didn't connect as well as the other 2 classes.
In VPs AC he read lots of OT records of prophets doing the healings, but no outpouring in the here and now. I can't write the teacher anymore, but I can write this.
I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam.
The AC had little to do with specific outreach in the Way IMO. In the earliest days of the "ministry" in California, pre-PFAL and post PFAL, people spread the Word about Jesus Christ as a personal savior and what that meant "one-to-one". It simply happened because people wanted to talk about it.
If it's miracles you want to see, and it's the PFAL series you look at then the verse that speaks the loudest (if not the clearest) is Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they" etc.
A lot of the Way's methodology developed from the interpretation of that verse to mean - those who believe to do those things, or some things, or something, in His name, will then do those things and others too. IE - signs will follow those who believe to perform those signs.
The object of the belief - to perform signs in the name of Jesus Christ.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
Okay, we see Jesus clearly speaking about these kinds of things in the gospels, but the verse in Mark is better understood when read - follow them that believe in my Name.........................................those who do believe in my name will do these kinds of things.
It's not the things that are important or the focus. It's believing in Jesus Christ. His name is important and represents a reality and construct in the Kingdom of God that can be understood "in His name".
The stuff follows the lives of those who believe - notice all of the "miracles" that we read of Jesus - feeding hungry people. The feeding was to - well, feed them. It wasn't to perform a miracle.
Healing a lame person, something wrong with their legs - you got a guy who can't walk. Walking with good legs would be nice. The miracle did something for the man that needed to be done.
Of course - the miracles stand alone and speak for themselves and would represent - what? Power?
The entire idea of "walking with power" - ie the AC - makes for a conundrum IMO if it focuses on doing things, performing miracles.
Nobody's going to snap their fingers and get a 1,000 loaves of Wonder Bread and a 100 boxes of fish sticks out of the blue. For that matter it won't happen simply because there's a hungry crowd.
It simply doesn't happen that way, and history has shown that to be absolutely true - those who insist on it end up like Benny Hinn and some of these other clowns. They're just off on another planet. They need a serious as s kicking although I doubt that would put a stop to their arena sized jerk-offs. They protect themselves from direct honest confrontation because when they are confronted directly the "power" goes up in smoke. My direct experience with people "like that" has been 100 per cent consistent in that outcome - nothing, nada, nuttin' happens no matter how much they wave their wands around. Nuttin'. It's b-s--t plain and simple and makes the message of believing in Jesus Christ look ridiculous. Frankly I'm surprised JC doesn't show up and smoke them just to preserve whatever dignity they might have once had but it appears we can have as much rope as we want to hang ourselves this go round.
Jesus is The Show. When the message and the focus veers from that it's over. It's much less of a "spiritual" thing than we think IMO. The events that support the message and the need occur - follow - the lives of those involved as they live them.
The best part of the AC was just reading the Bible a lot and getting a larger understanding of what God has done, can do and might very well do under certain circumstances. All I really learned from it was to "just do it". Speak the message and try to help others. Where there's great need there can be great deliverance in a diversity of ways.
If you're looking for support all I can say is yes - yes. S--t will happen. Why it does or doesn't at any specific time isn't my concern, at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
that reminds me of the eternity cologne slogan "i don't know where you end and i begin" ....now there was an enterprising person - instead of complaining about multiple sources quotes all run together - they just made an ad campaign out of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote:
I think I"m still trying to understand what your original question is/was johniam.
I wanted to get some discussion going. Didn't really have a question. It's just something I ran through my mind lately; wanted to see what folks here might say about it.
I took twi's AC twice; once at Emporia and once in fall of '84 when they did classes for grads in local areas all over the country. Maybe GSC isn't the place, but I was actually hoping someone would say, "Oh, no! The AC connected with ME! Let me tell you about it....etc.". That kind of thing.
The only twi spinoff that I KNOW has an AC is John Hendricks' CRF. Chris Geer has one on the way, I'm told. CG plans to run his ACs in the local areas; not at a central location. John Hendricks' are all done at Destin, FL, near where he lived.
I can't really dispute anything you said. I think you make a good point about how doing the miracles was not about 'look at me, I have power' it was about 'there is a need here, how can I help'? Perhaps this should have been emphasized more.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Just thought of something.
As believers, as the church, as ambassadors for Christ, we were told we had the power (authority) to speak God's word any time anywhere. In scripture, sometimes it was 'in season/out of season' and sometimes it was 'the spirit suffered them not'. We were also told that the adversary hates us speaking the word more than anything. I agree.
You want a question? OK, here's a question.
What affect, if any, did taking the AC have on your speaking of the word? How long did this last?
In late August of '78 I brought my mother to a fellowship. We were in someone's back yard. The teacher that day was an early 20s girl who had just taken the AC. She was OK as a person/believer. But she began her teaching by screaming "who wants to be pope? who wants to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc.?" Whew. With slightly less volume she continued her teaching for a few minutes. Then it rained...HARD...enough to force everybody inside, the teaching was over. The rain lasted only a few minutes. I looked at her face later and it seemed like she KNEW what she had done. My mother wasn't very impressed. It was years later before I had the nerve to ask her to go to another fellowship.
The good part was... taking the AC made this girl aware that she, too, could speak God's word with authority. The bad part was...you don't need to blow up the house just to swat a mosquito in the kitchen. Just a glitch in technique, I guess.
I had 6 years to mull over this before taking the AC myself. My first day at work after the class was over, and, sure enough, I mauled this poor guy in the break room. Talked about the devil's armpit, yes I did. I, too, could speak the word with authority. This guy already knew I was a 'Jesus freak' and he didn't give me any weirder looks after that than before; didn't even try to avoid me, but my zeal didn't last long. I guess the 'urgency of the times' isn't a good enough excuse to 'serve' people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
fyi - vp did that same teaching for years....until someone like LCM responded to his invitation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
I don't understand why anyone (like the examples you gave johniam) would follow the same series format as PFAL or would have something like an "advanced class".
Advanced - compared to what? At what?
I'm not being facetious. Jesus is often given as the example, teaching in parables and using metaphors with some but speaking more directly to those who had followed Him longer. Yet, His followers - not a one - actually understood His death or expected his resurrection.
A lot of effort is given to trying to prove that Jesus taught His closest followers some higher levels of "truth" - and yes, it's obvious He worked directly with those closest to Him and had a cadre of literal followers and 'believers' that He spoke freely with. Yet - and this is significant - not a single human being that we know of thought He was anything but very dead after His crucifixion and they all mourned His death, feeling the terrible loss. So whatever we think they knew it didn't "connect" until after His resurrection, which was completely outside of the realm of human effort or expectation. God and Jesus Christ - you got that and nothing else. They'd supposedly seen and heard it all, firsthand. Then - nothing.
The story goes that they came to life on the day of Pentecost - it appears that there was a very real event that caused The Light to turn on in their brains and souls. But the rest of the time they were milling around, getting organized, finding a replacement for Judas and working on - whatever. Given more time they might have started running classes for god's sake.
Again - the Holy Spirit unfolds reality to them and they see with new eyes "finally" one might say - that they were it. This was it. And that's all they were going to get - not that it wasn't grand or enough but some things appear to have connected on that day for them.
Again - a lot's made of them "being ready" and all of one accord and all of that - but doesn't it seem clear that yet again the "power" of the event had next to nothing to do with them or their paltry preparations? Of their own "accord" nothing was happening? They were doing good to remember to be present and accounted for. Serious yes, no doubt. But very much human beings.
Then - there's a "movement", the effort to spread the message of Jesus Christ comes alive.
"AC" has nothing do with it. People like you and lots of others sat through all of these classes twiddling their ears and hearing lots of bible. I was good at that too. But no, I don't think that specific kind of effort has anything to do with "outreach" that won't happen when a person is truly, deeply and individually changed and "connected" with God through Jesus Christ. As with all of the other records we read the moments of truth circle around an infinitely endless moment of reality that has all the subtlety of a train ripping down your door with nowhere to go but in.
That's all I know and can speak for. Quiet seas, raging waves, whichever - the water's of life have to engulf you one way or the other, where ever you're sitting or it's just another recitation of "the truth".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
I would add this - for all the guffawing around the 'Vanced Class and others as being little more than organized b-s, the fact is that at that time a number of events occurred that were ground-establishing for me.
One involved ministering, praying for a friend who was sick at that time. I understood "Healing" was possible, he didn't say anything about what was wrong, so I prayed for him. I closed my eyes, put the ol' hands on his shoulders and immediately was filled with the image of his lungs.
I've seen pictures of lungs before-if asked i'd have probably drawn lungs as looking like little upside down kidney beans with tubes coming out of them or something. Lungs. These - his - looked like a medical photograph of lungs, I saw the image of his entire insides. Needless to say it was rather uh, disturbing in a way. Lungs don't look all that cool, and all of the rest of the stuff inside us looks kind of weird too, as I recall. The entire image was dark and etched. I prayed for him and - actually he went into the hospital a day later with some serious infections. I'm glad he did, he got cared for and recovered fully. But he was a sick dog that night. I certainly didn't "heal" him but I prayed for him and frankly wished he'd been healed that night but the progression of that illness was on it's own track - I do believe that the continued prayer and support contributed to his speedy recovery as they say. I do know I knew exactly what that guy's lungs looked like after that for whatever that's worth. I'm not sure I did the right thing but it did teach me to take time to ponder what something means, even after I think I know.
Another involved driving a group of us to the AC. We stopped at a gas station for a bio -break in Berkley, heading for the bridge on to Mill Valley (CA). I stayed in the car, pulled up in a side spot at a gas station. I'm sitting there waiting and get the urge to get out and look under the car. Why? No idea really - just look under the car. I did and got underneath thinking what they f-k am I doing this for and spot a small leak under the gas tank - no idea what had caused it but there it is - a little dent/hole and gas dripping out.
I know - gas smells. But it's 1971 and we're we're parked in a - gas station. It stinks gas. I didn't smell anything that made me want to look under the car.
I get up and go in and ask the guy in the shop to take a look - yup, that's a leak alright. He goes in and comes out with a bar of soap - tells me to rub it up into the hole to plug it - I did and the leak stopped. Everyone is back out by now. We talk and decide to go on to the AC and we'll deal with it the next day. He gave me the bar of soap. I checked it out couplet times later - plug held for the entire trip, next day got it in to get fixed.
There's another half a dozen things like that that occurred around that time of the AC - many before it and many more after it. In the long view it was a period of time that included the AC but didn't revolve around it. It was a long time ago but the movement was mostly like a fast ignition, slow burning long smoker. Still going, to be honest.
I don't "speak the Word" about these things to people like a recording. From time to time they have meaning in certain situations and I retell to them the things that I've lived that would have bearing on their own circumstance, things that to me bear witness to God and the reality of His existence and intentions for man. We're not anymore special than another, any one of us - we're all very special to God. In fact I bear witness to the fact that if me - then anyone.
I have no doubt that the continuous wonderfulness of life can be both more than overwhelming sometimes and serendipitous in it's ordinariness at others. It is what it is but if you loaded a chamber next to my ear and cocked it and said "Deny it" all I could really say is "see you in the next life - and you better bring a bigger gun". Cuz you're going to need it.
All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"connect" really gets my attention..
do we want to connect or not..
you are going to have to let go of a whole bunch of s*it.
I've already let go, and lost everything as it is.
except for love..
sorry if it is demanding too much of mortal participants here..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Connect?....you mean like when I left "gawd's ministry" and was shunned by people I had known for several years?...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote:
All things being equal - how can anyone NOT speak for what they know to be true? We may avoid it at times but if we know what we know - it is what it is, and it's really cool and fun when it's not a major pain in the but t.
I remember when my wow training was over I felt pumped up, like I had a mission in life, like my life was important. This lasted a few weeks, too. It lasted until security kicked us off the U of MO Rolla campus. We witnessed there a lot. Late in the year our family coordinator said that the average wow in MO witnessed 1 hour per day. Not like it was a disgrace; more like it was reasonable, realistic.
How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization".
I agree that being part of a believing community can be fun. Sometimes it seemed like all the universe was in sync with twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
I can think of many reasons NOT to speak "twi's word"...
1) Wierwille's word was attended by a bodyguard of lies
2) Walking uprightly is far different than following orders
3) Knee-jerk indoctrination is masquerading as commitment
"In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies," said Winston Churchill.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
How can anyone NOT speak? Fear. The world builds fear to speak the word in people. Even politically, each side of the liberal/conservative spectrum tries to build fear in the other side. I think in twi we believed we were speaking for God, not just for a better community. Even L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, said "you'll have to work if you want a sane, safe, civilization".
Well, quoting Hubbard won't get us far but I think I know what you mean.
I get the fear part of it and it effects most people more than they admit or even recognize.
It always feels better to be accepted and praised for what we say rather than be shot full of holes. Group think, peer pressure. Education. Ignorance. Fear of punishment, anticipation of rewards.
"Honesty" can be over rated too - I can be very honest while being very ill informed, misguided and even destructive. Code language today can leverage the appearance of honesty against the real thing by using phrases like
"As far as i know"
"As I understand it"
"It was told to me that"
"According to many sources"
Those statements can all be very true to fact but held forth or heard as if they're ironclad - and they're not. I hear them a lot when the real truth would be "I don't know". but that doesn't make it for some people.
So yeah, fear. Stuff. Wuddevah.
Peter Green sang it very well when he sang "Don't ask me what I think of you - I might not give the answer that you want me to".
Or put another way - be prepared for that instance when someone might not tell you that anything you do is okay because God is in the twinkle of every baby's eye and wrapped in the rainbow love bunnies that dance when we keep porpoise's out of our tuna cans - but might actually have something different to pin their beliefs on.
(however, and just to be clear and not to offend any PETA people, love bunny owners or babies, present, past or future including their parents or siblings, born or unborn - no porpoise were harmed in the production of this post. While I do not worship them as deities or even icons of lesser stature I really really do think they have a lot to teach us. Really).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i think people who experience / see miracles are people who really love god / walk with christ / etc.
you can get to this point any old good way god / christ leads you there
because your heart and relationship with them is so cool
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Speaking of the advanced class, does anybody know if LCM redid it? Did they use VPs? I mean after 1994.
I remember for awhile they used Earl Burton's intermediate class, then went back to VPs. I assume LCM used VPs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i'm sorry but who gives a shhhhhhhhhhhttttttt
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Martindale redid all three classes....The Way of Abundance and Power
1996.....foundational
1997.....intermediate
1998.....advanced
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Hmm.. Did he redo his own Adv Class? I could've sworn in '95 when I took it, it was his.. Still remember him walking down the aisle making jokes about how that was him on the screen and messing around with the group while i was trying to listen and felt like telling him to shut up so I could hear! lol.. As if I would.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.