Holland is The Netherlands (not just "in" The Netherlands).
Do you really not think of the US as being one block?
Do you-all think of yourselves as being Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc first, and then American second?
Or are you American first, then Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc.
Maybe you do think of yourselves by State, since each State is so big and the lot of you are so much one continent (excluding Hawai'i).
Certainly in the EU people see themselves as Brit, or French, or Spanish...and then European. In Britain we might also think of ourselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish before thinking of ourselves as British. And some Brits are not altogether sure they are or want to be Europeans. Like Europeans are some other species. Maybe French and Germans (the original EU countries, straight after WW2) would think more of themselves as Europeans...but each country is still so different.
The European Parliament is now the highest rule-maker for each country...it makes laws and countries have to bring their own legislation into line with it. This is not always a welcome or happy process (says she, in true Brit fashion, understating how things go!).
Anyway, sorry, this has gone way .
I knew Holland is The Netherlands, I don't know why I used the word, "in".
To answer your question and speaking for myself, I think of myself as American first and Ohioan second. I think most Americans think the same way. Unlike Europe, most Americans speak the same language. That is not to say we completely understand each others' accents.
Your question is of particular interest to me because there was a time when Americans identified more with their state than the union. Even at our inception many in the Northern states wanted to see slavery abolished in the South(many in the South did too but that's another story). The debate intensified as to whether the federal government had the right to mandate law over the will of the individual states. Eventually this debate resulted in what we call "The Civil War", and it changed the way people viewed the nation and themselves as citizens of the nation.
Sorry to continue the derail but I find your perspective as a European very interesting.
A lot of people do identify themselves first with their state and secondly with the country. Probably the most notable example is Texas. But, you will find a similar sentiment in parts of Alaska and Hawaii. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from people I have worked with from those places.
A lot of people do identify themselves first with their state and secondly with the country. Probably the most notable example is Texas. But, you will find a similar sentiment in parts of Alaska and Hawaii. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from people I have worked with from those places.
Even still, I believe a Texan would consider an attack on say, Norfolk, as a personal attack because they consider themselves Americans. If Alaska were attacked by a foreign government I would also take that as a personal attack on my country. I hope they feel the same. Don't know much about Alaska. Maybe Clay, if he's lurking, can give us a perspective.
Since the U.S. actually conquered Hawaii, there are still some there that are upset about that.
quote: When did "liberal" become a religious belief?
Religion is a belief system. Liberal is also a belief system. Religion, as a belief system, is discriminated against. Rules exist for religion(s) that don't exist for other belief systems. Evolution is a belief system. Funny, you can teach evolution in public schools, but you can't teach Christianity. Why the discrimination? Sounds like bigotry borne of education to me.
As for liberal becoming a religious belief, I myself was raised in it. I attended Fountain Street Church in Grand Rapids, MI as a child. My mother told me if those kids in the neighborhood ask you what kind of church you go to, then you tell them it's a LIBERAL church! Ann Coulter has a book called 'Godless'. The book makes the case that liberalism is in fact, a religion. Its god is its ideals and its devil is...well, Christians. I guess.
quote: In a Jan. 1981 newsletter to Ohio believers, state leader Bob Mirabito wrote: "Dr. Wierwille has personally been invited by President-Elect Ronald Reagan to the Inauguration Ball this January 20th. It is not one of the sattelite balls. There will be only 1,000 people in attendance".
I didn't live in Ohio and I never heard that Reagan was personally acquainted with VP. I remember a bit in the way mag in which VP was at some gathering on the day of the inauguration. VP said he saw Joseph Coors there; knew him from somewhere. He said when Reagan showed up VP was standing 6' away from him. Said he looked tired. Said he prayed for God to bless him like He blessed men who loved His word. Didn't say he personally spoke to him. Later I found out that VP got to go to this event because a twi believer was in the military and was assigned to Washington DC and gave VP the 2 tickets he was given.
On Feb. 9, 1981, Kansas Senator Bob Dole, future Republican presidential nominee, wrote in answer to an inquiry from Herb Diamond: "I realize that there has been a great deal of concern about the participation of Victor Paul Wierwille, leader of THe WAy, in the recent Inaugural activities. I want to assure you that Mr. Wierwille's presence was as a private citizen and not an official guest. It seems that the invitation to Mr. Wierwille came as a result of a routine phone request to a congressional office that a V.P. Wierwille attend an Inaugural event. Whoever took the phone message did not recognize the name, and so it was passed on along with other such requests..His presence in Washington in no way represents any kind of official recognition of him or his organization by the Administration.
quoted from The Cult That Snapped by Karl Kahler, p 124-125
Who exactly was Herb Diamond? Other than taxicab's dad. Was he a reporter?
Martin "Lucifer" King? Wow, that's harsh. I do recall someone saying that MLK had the same "spirit of riot" that Demetrius had in Acts 19. Ironically, the guy who said that is black and a WC grad. I think I'll file that one away with "all 4 Beatles are wrong seed".
...republicans were all Christians and democrats were all liberals..
OK, I'll rephrase it.
When did Christianity become a political party?
Not sure what pope it was under, but it happened sometime during the dark ages. But Christianity had to be perverted, not like the religion of liberalism that was born worshiping perversions.
Who exactly was Herb Diamond? Other than taxicab's dad. Was he a reporter?
Martin "Lucifer" King? Wow, that's harsh. I do recall someone saying that MLK had the same "spirit of riot" that Demetrius had in Acts 19. Ironically, the guy who said that is black and a WC grad. I think I'll file that one away with "all 4 Beatles are wrong seed".
Johniam, My dad wasn't a reporter, he happened to be an accountant. He really had a problem with my involvement with TWI and thought Wierwille was a charlatan. In the early 70's in New York a group of parents were extremely anti-way, believed it was a dangerous cult, and some of those parents, my dad included, worked toward unearthing claims that Wierwille made that were false. Of course I wasn't interested in listening to any of it when I was young. I actually didn't know about this until I saw my dad's name when I read "The Cult That Snapped. Thanks Karl Kahler, it made me proud!
Johniam, My dad wasn't a reporter, he happened to be an accountant. He really had a problem with my involvement with TWI and thought Wierwille was a charlatan. In the early 70's in New York a group of parents were extremely anti-way, believed it was a dangerous cult, and some of those parents, my dad included, worked toward unearthing claims that Wierwille made that were false. Of course I wasn't interested in listening to any of it when I was young. I actually didn't know about this until I saw my dad's name when I read "The Cult That Snapped. Thanks Karl Kahler, it made me proud!
Wow! That was great! Was your father still living when you made your discovery?
Wow! That was great! Was your father still living when you made your discovery?
My dad was still living when I left twi in 1993 but I just read "The Cult That Snapped" by Karl Kahler a couple of months ago and I wasn't aware of it before then.
To get back to the original question: As stated before my family was mortified when I became involved with TWI because of the religious doctrine as well as political rhetoric. My sister came to me one day and said "I can handle your religious beliefs, but please tell me You're not a Republican!!!"
My dad was still living when I left twi in 1993 but I just read "The Cult That Snapped" by Karl Kahler a couple of months ago and I wasn't aware of it before then.
To get back to the original question: As stated before my family was mortified when I became involved with TWI because of the religious doctrine as well as political rhetoric. My sister came to me one day and said "I can handle your religious beliefs, but please tell me You're not a Republican!!!"
Utterly amazing.
Thanks for the links to the old threads on this topic, too.
Thanks for the links to the old threads on this topic, too.
The links were provided by "WordWolf". Want to make sure I give credit where credit is due!
When I was in-residence my dad wrote Craig a letter exposing some of the bull crap. Craig showed me the letter and told me to write a response to it that he would then forward on to my dad. I'm so mortified to be telling this story now. As the mother of three children I can't fathom the hurt that caused my parents. I took the word of some sh-t kickers over the "research" my dad did not for money or fame but because he loved me.
And Holland is in The Netherlands, not "Never Never Land".
As far as the EU, I'm sure a lot of folks see it as one more step toward one-world government which is a sign of the "end times" as discussed in The Book of Revelation. I'm just addressing why some are opposed, or feel threatened by the EU.
I personally think that the United States needs a strong Europe. We need allies, and we need for them to be strong. There have been many times both have turned to the other in a time of need. George W. Bush said the U.S. has no greater friend than England. That probably would have hurt my feelings if I were Canadian, but I believe the point is well taken. Competition is good for the economy and Europeans are simply looking for ways to be stronger. It simply means the U.S. also needs to be more competitive.
I don't understand what you mean when you speak of "U.S. economic repression". You're not the first non-American I've heard say that, but I don't see it. I would like to be enlightened.
I have never thought about the U.S. states "being one block". That is a very interesting perspective to me. I see it as different as the EU because in the U.S. the federal government has the final say. With the EU there has to be consensus amongst the countries, correct?
Broken Arrow and Twinky, thanks for your comments. BA, I did hear about that invasion, though I probably didn't know about it at the time, but I think he must have meant the post-Civil War US. My memory is not the best, but I think the problem with the EU that he was trying to explain (sorry about being so eu-centric, now there's a "good" word!) was that these countries that in twos and threes had been at war with each other and invading each other over eons were now forming an alliance, and that wasn't spiritually good. Still doesn't make sense, not that any of it has to anyway! (And some of us never invaded anyone, well, maybe some raiding a long time ago but then later we saved civilisation).
Twinky said "And I further thought: yeah, all right for you to say that...now...now that your States are all one block. Do you want to disband the US union because that union is so evil? No, thought not. You just want to stop others achieving the benefits of cross-border business, multi-nationalism, etc."
Twinky, that must have been rough for you, but at least you had the ability to see another reason for it, when all I could think was that it didn't make sense.
All sorts of organizations make a concerted effort to influence the collective political views of their individual members when they endorse particular candidates. Professional organizations do it, trade unions do it, lots of groups do it. But, The Way is a 501( c )(3). What they did, by trying to influence an entire block of voters, was a violation of the rules they have to observe if they want to continue playing the 501 game. Aside from that, they pitched a lot of radical view points, such as the non-existence of The Holocaust. These view points functioned as a catalyst for political views. So, if you ever listened to some of the more extreme drivel that came out of New Knockwurst and considered it to be true, your political views were influenced by The Way, at least in a temporary sense
First - congratulations to Johniam in post #30 for trying to bring this back to topic! (After all the slagging off he's received for dragging things off-topic)
My memory is not the best, but I think the problem with the EU that he was trying to explain (sorry about being so eu-centric, now there's a "good" word!) was that these countries that in twos and threes had been at war with each other and invading each other over eons were now forming an alliance, and that wasn't spiritually good. Still doesn't make sense, not that any of it has to anyway!
Cara, the "Common Market" was set up originally as an "anti-war" strategy. If it makes peace, you'd have to say in fact that it is spiritually good. (Not that I'm saying any such thing. It's not "spiritual.")
Germany had been the aggressor in two world wars. Europe was devastated and financially was in a mess. The idea historically behind the "Common Market" - what became the EEC - European Economic Community and is now known as the European Union - is that the economies of the participating countries would become so inter-dependent that one country could not wage war on another without seriously damaging its own financial stability. Thus, the potential destabilisation of one's country's economy would deter from attacking another country.
We now have a new currency, the "euro" in many EU countries. It's like using the dollar in all States, not a shekel in NY, a barrel in TX or a sea shell in CA and working out currency equivalents. Not all countries have given up their own currency to subscribe to euros. Britain, for instance, still has the pound £ as its currency.
Wow, some of this thread is just jam packed with crazy!
Anyway
lindyhopper is mydaddy!!!!!!
Bless you my child.
It seems that certain brands of right wing Christianity think they are so right and that everything else is so wrong that anything can become a religion. If it disagrees with their brand of God it is suddenly a religion, by having something before their god. Their perfect world would be a theocracy.... their theocracy. There is usually a shortage of sympathy, empathy, and compassion in these religions as well.
It seems that certain brands of right wing Christianity think they are so right and that everything else is so wrong that anything can become a religion.
Seems to me that the executive branch in the beltway is a religion unto itself.
Kinda funny to see the left fumble all over themselves in this bin Laden episode. One could easily make the case that had it not been for the right wing "religion" on this war on terror......the cia intelligence aparatus, the navy seals, and the defense capabilities would have been too diminished to pull this off in Abbottobad, Pakistan.
Extremes on the right and left are ideologies unto themselves. Didn't we learn something about EXTREMES in twi? /sarc
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excathedra
oh veepee was mad about somethin i remember that much lindyhopper is mydaddy!!!!!!
Broken Arrow
I knew Holland is The Netherlands, I don't know why I used the word, "in".
To answer your question and speaking for myself, I think of myself as American first and Ohioan second. I think most Americans think the same way. Unlike Europe, most Americans speak the same language. That is not to say we completely understand each others' accents.
Your question is of particular interest to me because there was a time when Americans identified more with their state than the union. Even at our inception many in the Northern states wanted to see slavery abolished in the South(many in the South did too but that's another story). The debate intensified as to whether the federal government had the right to mandate law over the will of the individual states. Eventually this debate resulted in what we call "The Civil War", and it changed the way people viewed the nation and themselves as citizens of the nation.
Sorry to continue the derail but I find your perspective as a European very interesting.
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waysider
A lot of people do identify themselves first with their state and secondly with the country. Probably the most notable example is Texas. But, you will find a similar sentiment in parts of Alaska and Hawaii. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from people I have worked with from those places.
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Broken Arrow
Even still, I believe a Texan would consider an attack on say, Norfolk, as a personal attack because they consider themselves Americans. If Alaska were attacked by a foreign government I would also take that as a personal attack on my country. I hope they feel the same. Don't know much about Alaska. Maybe Clay, if he's lurking, can give us a perspective.
Since the U.S. actually conquered Hawaii, there are still some there that are upset about that.
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johniam
quote: When did "liberal" become a religious belief?
Religion is a belief system. Liberal is also a belief system. Religion, as a belief system, is discriminated against. Rules exist for religion(s) that don't exist for other belief systems. Evolution is a belief system. Funny, you can teach evolution in public schools, but you can't teach Christianity. Why the discrimination? Sounds like bigotry borne of education to me.
As for liberal becoming a religious belief, I myself was raised in it. I attended Fountain Street Church in Grand Rapids, MI as a child. My mother told me if those kids in the neighborhood ask you what kind of church you go to, then you tell them it's a LIBERAL church! Ann Coulter has a book called 'Godless'. The book makes the case that liberalism is in fact, a religion. Its god is its ideals and its devil is...well, Christians. I guess.
quote: In a Jan. 1981 newsletter to Ohio believers, state leader Bob Mirabito wrote: "Dr. Wierwille has personally been invited by President-Elect Ronald Reagan to the Inauguration Ball this January 20th. It is not one of the sattelite balls. There will be only 1,000 people in attendance".
I didn't live in Ohio and I never heard that Reagan was personally acquainted with VP. I remember a bit in the way mag in which VP was at some gathering on the day of the inauguration. VP said he saw Joseph Coors there; knew him from somewhere. He said when Reagan showed up VP was standing 6' away from him. Said he looked tired. Said he prayed for God to bless him like He blessed men who loved His word. Didn't say he personally spoke to him. Later I found out that VP got to go to this event because a twi believer was in the military and was assigned to Washington DC and gave VP the 2 tickets he was given.
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excathedra
oh veepee was mad about somethin i remember that much
lindyhopper is mydaddy!!!!!!
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waysider
...republicans were all Christians and democrats were all liberals..
OK, I'll rephrase it.
When did Christianity become a political party?
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taxicab
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taxicab
TWI supported the John Birch Society, Ronald Reagan, NRA, called Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.- Martin "Lucifer" King, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, I always found their politics quite distasteful, but still hung around for 16 years, go figure!
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taxicab
On Feb. 9, 1981, Kansas Senator Bob Dole, future Republican presidential nominee, wrote in answer to an inquiry from Herb Diamond: "I realize that there has been a great deal of concern about the participation of Victor Paul Wierwille, leader of THe WAy, in the recent Inaugural activities. I want to assure you that Mr. Wierwille's presence was as a private citizen and not an official guest. It seems that the invitation to Mr. Wierwille came as a result of a routine phone request to a congressional office that a V.P. Wierwille attend an Inaugural event. Whoever took the phone message did not recognize the name, and so it was passed on along with other such requests..His presence in Washington in no way represents any kind of official recognition of him or his organization by the Administration.
quoted from The Cult That Snapped by Karl Kahler, p 124-125
Herb Diamond is my dad, he died in April 2001.
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mstar1
Its dickering with words to render them meaningless,and appear to put them in opposition.
Just as many democrats are christian as are republicans...
Its along the lines of saying
Do you walk to work or take a lunch?
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johniam
Who exactly was Herb Diamond? Other than taxicab's dad. Was he a reporter?
Martin "Lucifer" King? Wow, that's harsh. I do recall someone saying that MLK had the same "spirit of riot" that Demetrius had in Acts 19. Ironically, the guy who said that is black and a WC grad. I think I'll file that one away with "all 4 Beatles are wrong seed".
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Ductape
Not sure what pope it was under, but it happened sometime during the dark ages. But Christianity had to be perverted, not like the religion of liberalism that was born worshiping perversions.
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taxicab
Johniam, My dad wasn't a reporter, he happened to be an accountant. He really had a problem with my involvement with TWI and thought Wierwille was a charlatan. In the early 70's in New York a group of parents were extremely anti-way, believed it was a dangerous cult, and some of those parents, my dad included, worked toward unearthing claims that Wierwille made that were false. Of course I wasn't interested in listening to any of it when I was young. I actually didn't know about this until I saw my dad's name when I read "The Cult That Snapped. Thanks Karl Kahler, it made me proud!
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Broken Arrow
Wow! That was great! Was your father still living when you made your discovery?
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taxicab
My dad was still living when I left twi in 1993 but I just read "The Cult That Snapped" by Karl Kahler a couple of months ago and I wasn't aware of it before then.
To get back to the original question: As stated before my family was mortified when I became involved with TWI because of the religious doctrine as well as political rhetoric. My sister came to me one day and said "I can handle your religious beliefs, but please tell me You're not a Republican!!!"
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penworks
Utterly amazing.
Thanks for the links to the old threads on this topic, too.
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taxicab
The links were provided by "WordWolf". Want to make sure I give credit where credit is due!
When I was in-residence my dad wrote Craig a letter exposing some of the bull crap. Craig showed me the letter and told me to write a response to it that he would then forward on to my dad. I'm so mortified to be telling this story now. As the mother of three children I can't fathom the hurt that caused my parents. I took the word of some sh-t kickers over the "research" my dad did not for money or fame but because he loved me.
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johniam
quote: Gender:Male / As the mother of three children
Umm....
Oh, wait a minute. OK I get it. Never mind.
(my husband's a cop; you wouldn't believe how dirty he gets my clothes)
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waysider
irrelevant
(and ad hominem, as well)
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cara
Broken Arrow and Twinky, thanks for your comments. BA, I did hear about that invasion, though I probably didn't know about it at the time, but I think he must have meant the post-Civil War US. My memory is not the best, but I think the problem with the EU that he was trying to explain (sorry about being so eu-centric, now there's a "good" word!) was that these countries that in twos and threes had been at war with each other and invading each other over eons were now forming an alliance, and that wasn't spiritually good. Still doesn't make sense, not that any of it has to anyway! (And some of us never invaded anyone, well, maybe some raiding a long time ago but then later we saved civilisation).
Twinky, that must have been rough for you, but at least you had the ability to see another reason for it, when all I could think was that it didn't make sense.
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waysider
All sorts of organizations make a concerted effort to influence the collective political views of their individual members when they endorse particular candidates. Professional organizations do it, trade unions do it, lots of groups do it. But, The Way is a 501( c )(3). What they did, by trying to influence an entire block of voters, was a violation of the rules they have to observe if they want to continue playing the 501 game. Aside from that, they pitched a lot of radical view points, such as the non-existence of The Holocaust. These view points functioned as a catalyst for political views. So, if you ever listened to some of the more extreme drivel that came out of New Knockwurst and considered it to be true, your political views were influenced by The Way, at least in a temporary sense
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Twinky
First - congratulations to Johniam in post #30 for trying to bring this back to topic! (After all the slagging off he's received for dragging things off-topic)
Cara, the "Common Market" was set up originally as an "anti-war" strategy. If it makes peace, you'd have to say in fact that it is spiritually good. (Not that I'm saying any such thing. It's not "spiritual.")
Germany had been the aggressor in two world wars. Europe was devastated and financially was in a mess. The idea historically behind the "Common Market" - what became the EEC - European Economic Community and is now known as the European Union - is that the economies of the participating countries would become so inter-dependent that one country could not wage war on another without seriously damaging its own financial stability. Thus, the potential destabilisation of one's country's economy would deter from attacking another country.
We now have a new currency, the "euro" in many EU countries. It's like using the dollar in all States, not a shekel in NY, a barrel in TX or a sea shell in CA and working out currency equivalents. Not all countries have given up their own currency to subscribe to euros. Britain, for instance, still has the pound £ as its currency.
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lindyhopper
Wow, some of this thread is just jam packed with crazy!
Anyway
Bless you my child.
It seems that certain brands of right wing Christianity think they are so right and that everything else is so wrong that anything can become a religion. If it disagrees with their brand of God it is suddenly a religion, by having something before their god. Their perfect world would be a theocracy.... their theocracy. There is usually a shortage of sympathy, empathy, and compassion in these religions as well.
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skyrider
Seems to me that the executive branch in the beltway is a religion unto itself.
Kinda funny to see the left fumble all over themselves in this bin Laden episode. One could easily make the case that had it not been for the right wing "religion" on this war on terror......the cia intelligence aparatus, the navy seals, and the defense capabilities would have been too diminished to pull this off in Abbottobad, Pakistan.
Extremes on the right and left are ideologies unto themselves. Didn't we learn something about EXTREMES in twi? /sarc
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