Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction? Really?? People have said this? Admittedly, I knew very little about the Bible before taking PFAL, but, is this really something anyone here has ever heard anywhere else besides PFAL?
Or, was Wierwille obviating, in case someone might become suspicious of his own weaknesses?
I think this whole "people" angle was simply part of the indoctrination process that established a "them vs. us" mentality.
It is interesting that all the spiritual competition concepts go out the window with the thorn in the flesh teaching. Maybe he was on to something ---- ---- Seems my thorn in the flesh turned out to be Wierwille's doctrines (which are not really his) and his viper like brood.
Cman: If you can't say what it IS, then how can you say what it's NOT?
Waysider: I was told that it was Billy Graham's grandfather who said Paul was a sex pervert. Never checked it out; nobody else told me that, but my twig leader, who generally was not given to obsessing about stuff like that, did tell me that in 1979. For what it's worth.
For the record, there are other places in scripture where thorns are compared to people, such as the 2 VP quoted (Num33:55, Josh23:13), also 2Sam 23:6. In Matt 7:15,16 Jesus compares thorns to false prophets. Some scriptures indicate that thorns were used as kindling. Something people use to get a fire started, then it's gone good riddance. The devil certainly uses people with no regard for their future. The thorn in the flesh is the messenger of Satan, right?
You also don't have to hate people to recognize that they can be a pain in the a$$. I don't know if VPW was right biblically about this particular point, but at least it's logical.
For the record, I never left twi hating or being suspicious of people outside twi, and I didn't hate them when I was in. We have to be careful to speak only for ourselves, eh, since all our experiences and attitudes weren't the same?
I had heard elsewhere that Paul's thorn was his sexual problems. It seems to me that if that was it, more would have been written in the Bible about it. It doesn't escape me, though, why VPW would want to dismiss that explanation so readily. At the time, I thought he was sticking up for Paul. Ha!
5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction? Really?? People have said this? Admittedly, I knew very little about the Bible before taking PFAL, but, is this really something anyone here has ever heard anywhere else besides PFAL?
I certainly haven't been exposed to all Bible teachers, but I haven't heard anyone really talk about it. I've read quite a few books and I used to listen to a lot of radio sermons (worked at the station) but I haven't heard this subject discussed at all that I recall.
I find it interesting that VP chose the sexual addiction accusation to emphatically make his point.
A Google search of "paul's thorn in the flesh" sex turns up lots of non-TWI hits.
Yes, but, do any of these opinions predate the filming of PFAL in 1967? Maybe they do.
And were they available for perusal by Wierwille? I don't really know. I am curious, though.
Edit:
The relevant point for me, though, is that this whole concept, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sowed the seeds of a martyrdom mentality..... "Sure I'm driving a WOW-mobile and living on Beanie-Weenies, but, look at what Paul endured for The Word."
Perhaps being "weak" is not a concept we have grasped yet.
Or let happen.
my strength is made perfect in weakness
who of us have seen the
the messenger of Satan
and if so surely God is seen as well
lest I should be exalted above measure
would it be good or bad to be exalted above measure?
My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness
Is it you or God's strength to be seen?
Quite clearly it is God's strength made perfect.
What did Paul glory in?
Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
How could it be people? To glory in people that the power of Christ may rest upon him?
I believe the word 'infirmities' is not understood, till seen.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities
Romans 15:1
We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
bear the infirmities of the weak
Why?
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Can you be weak and strong at the same time-looks like it to me.
1 God, 1 Spirit, 1 Body.
'it' works.
Fear of weakness?
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Perhaps we should turn our former understanding around and see what is being spoken of.
And see the love and power of Christ that can rest upon us.
Unless you stop it by trying to dominate it (masculine) yourself.
My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness
I do think there are more assumptions of meanings then understanding what is being said
Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered
what is it really talking about here?
s.i.t. Twi style, I don't buy it for a second
the Spirit helping our infirmities?
doesn't say relief from, right
then there the Spirit again making
intercession for us
happening without it being seen, maybe, but maybe not
Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction?
I don't remember this from PFAL. What I remember is that VPW said that people said that the thorn in the flesh was some issue they themselves were grappling with. Like weak eyes or a feeble body.
But (he said) it was people - people who went round straight after Paul had taught freedom in Christ, and those people, "thorns", were trying to put the new converts straight back under the law. The implication from that would be that VPW was teaching "freedom" and others - mainstream churches? deprogrammers? - went along straight afterwards to try to uproot freedom truths.
Ironic, really, as it was exactly the opposite that was happening - he was teaching bondage disguised as freedom, and others were trying to uproot his pernicious teachings.
"Thorns" - VPW taught - were definitely people. He referred to Num 33:55.
Here are some scriptures referring to people as thorns:
Numbers 33:55 KJV
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
Joshua 23:13 KJV
Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Judges 2:3 KJV
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
2 Samuel 23:6 KJV
But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away , because they cannot be taken with hands
Hey, if you wanted to, you could build the most amazing theology about "thorns" really meaning "unbelievers." Check out any Bible search engine.
But I'm not at all sure that you can build a theology about "thorns" being illnesses, addictions or other physical ailments.
And while you certainly could build a theology about unbelievers being "thorns," by no means should you build a theology that says people who don't agree with you are unworthy of the love of God, or consigned to the fires of hell or to become greasespots by midnight, or that such people are otherwise to be badly treated.
"Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction?"
Twinky responded:
"I don't remember this from PFAL. What I remember is that VPW said that people said that the thorn in the flesh was some issue they themselves were grappling with. Like weak eyes or a feeble body."
From my opinion: The Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh was what he kept struggling with as he served the Lord. JE Stiles, Mother Teresa, Oral Roberts, David Wilkerson -- These people could relate to their thorn in the flesh because they struggled and endeavored to walk with the Lord and serve Him their whole life and we can find evidence of their struggles as we review their life's work.
Nicky Cruz, Billy Graham, and others that we know personally who live to the best of their ability before the Lord can today find hope and comfort and inspiration in identifying what was Paul's "thorn in the flesh." I am reading now "One Holy Fire" by Nicky Cruz and he identifies and is open about many of the personal struggles he overcame in order to serve the Lord. And how his wife had to take a big risk to marry him because of the baggage that he brought to their marriage from his abusive and wicked-spirit filled life before he was saved.
vp is not in this category. The "thorn in the flesh" speaks of a struggle before the Lord. vp did not have that. He was not one who was struggling to serve the Lord, in my opinion. He was an abuser and a user of people. A thief and a plagiarizer of others' ideas and work.
If he had a ministry and then abandoned it (as I once believed), then at that time he abandoned his ministry there was a decision of some kind before the Lord and perhaps at that time the "thorn in the flesh" concept would be applicable. To be able to identify vp's "thorn in the flesh" would be to know of that struggle, if he had a ministry and if there was a time of struggle for him.
In my experience and from the information gleaned from others who have been willing to bare their souls to help others understand the reality of what we endured in twi, I certainly am no longer able to say that vp had a ministry before the Lord (as I once believed). I believe he leeched off many many people's spiritual walk with the Lord and appropriated their/our gleanings as his own. He may have been a true psychopath. I don't know. He has faced the Lord and his judgment has been/will be made (I am not sure of that timetable). vp's judgment is between him and the Lord in my opinion.
I do not believe that it is appropriate to compare whatever vp was thinking with the effort of personal struggles that the Apostle Paul went through to ensure that we had the precious stuff that he brought into the world. As the Apostle Paul poured out such things as, "beloved I wish above all things thou may prosper and be in health," and
"Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees before the Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory to be strrenghtened with might by his Sprit in the inner man. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith that ye, being rooted and grounded in love may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height and to know the love of Christ which passeth knoweldge that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."
Paul was honest and true before the Lord and of a different category than vp. To compare vp and the precious ones who have struggled and who continue to struggle against the ministers of satan to serve the Lord is comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.
I listened to vp "do" Ephesians two times with all his stolen and intellectual knowledge. But there was never any life of the spirit in vp's words. I am only thankful that I was able to find out why, and remain ever grateful for Transchat, for Waydale, and especially for the Greasespot Cafe which showed me why I was not brought closer to the Lord by vp's works.Mich@elM@rt1n told me to read Ephesians every day. D3l Dunc@n healed my brain. Bi11 Sch1ey. There are so many to whom I owe my life before the Lord. But I do not know that vp is among them.
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Ham
Poison does have the capacity to intoxicate.
Owsley described the more destructive intoxicants as "body heavy"..
in other words, they will get you high, but will beat the snot out of you in the process..
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waysider
Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction? Really?? People have said this? Admittedly, I knew very little about the Bible before taking PFAL, but, is this really something anyone here has ever heard anywhere else besides PFAL?
Or, was Wierwille obviating, in case someone might become suspicious of his own weaknesses?
I think this whole "people" angle was simply part of the indoctrination process that established a "them vs. us" mentality.
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OldSkool
It is interesting that all the spiritual competition concepts go out the window with the thorn in the flesh teaching. Maybe he was on to something ----
---- Seems my thorn in the flesh turned out to be Wierwille's doctrines (which are not really his) and his viper like brood.
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johniam
Cman: If you can't say what it IS, then how can you say what it's NOT?
Waysider: I was told that it was Billy Graham's grandfather who said Paul was a sex pervert. Never checked it out; nobody else told me that, but my twig leader, who generally was not given to obsessing about stuff like that, did tell me that in 1979. For what it's worth.
For the record, there are other places in scripture where thorns are compared to people, such as the 2 VP quoted (Num33:55, Josh23:13), also 2Sam 23:6. In Matt 7:15,16 Jesus compares thorns to false prophets. Some scriptures indicate that thorns were used as kindling. Something people use to get a fire started, then it's gone good riddance. The devil certainly uses people with no regard for their future. The thorn in the flesh is the messenger of Satan, right?
You don't have to be in a 'cult' to hate people.
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Linda Z
You also don't have to hate people to recognize that they can be a pain in the a$$. I don't know if VPW was right biblically about this particular point, but at least it's logical.
For the record, I never left twi hating or being suspicious of people outside twi, and I didn't hate them when I was in. We have to be careful to speak only for ourselves, eh, since all our experiences and attitudes weren't the same?
I had heard elsewhere that Paul's thorn was his sexual problems. It seems to me that if that was it, more would have been written in the Bible about it. It doesn't escape me, though, why VPW would want to dismiss that explanation so readily. At the time, I thought he was sticking up for Paul. Ha!
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cman
By typing words.
I will not get into 'what it is' here.
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cman
2 Corinthians 12
5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Verse 10 does not say people.
These things cover a lot of ground,
people perhaps, but much deeper then that.
I'd look up what made him weak and strong.
Plain as the nose on your face.
Reading what is written, it is not people.
But, weakness and his own 'infirmities'.
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cman
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Man will never see God, but the woman the feminine will see.
Who is Satan and the messenger?
Dates forward to the beginning.
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Broken Arrow
I certainly haven't been exposed to all Bible teachers, but I haven't heard anyone really talk about it. I've read quite a few books and I used to listen to a lot of radio sermons (worked at the station) but I haven't heard this subject discussed at all that I recall.
I find it interesting that VP chose the sexual addiction accusation to emphatically make his point.
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Jim
A Google search of "paul's thorn in the flesh" sex turns up lots of non-TWI hits.
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waysider
Yes, but, do any of these opinions predate the filming of PFAL in 1967? Maybe they do.
And were they available for perusal by Wierwille? I don't really know. I am curious, though.
Edit:
The relevant point for me, though, is that this whole concept, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sowed the seeds of a martyrdom mentality..... "Sure I'm driving a WOW-mobile and living on Beanie-Weenies, but, look at what Paul endured for The Word."
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cman
Perhaps being "weak" is not a concept we have grasped yet.
Or let happen.
who of us have seen the
and if so surely God is seen as well
would it be good or bad to be exalted above measure?
Is it you or God's strength to be seen?
Quite clearly it is God's strength made perfect.
What did Paul glory in?
How could it be people? To glory in people that the power of Christ may rest upon him?
I believe the word 'infirmities' is not understood, till seen.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities
Romans 15:1
We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Why?
Can you be weak and strong at the same time-looks like it to me.
1 God, 1 Spirit, 1 Body.
'it' works.
Fear of weakness?
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Perhaps we should turn our former understanding around and see what is being spoken of.
And see the love and power of Christ that can rest upon us.
Unless you stop it by trying to dominate it (masculine) yourself.
And think it's your Glory.
Instead of the other way around.
Letting it, the Glory rest on you.
The strong MAN must be bound.
So Christ can work it's work.
The strong man will will try to pound Christ in.
When it is already there.
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cman
buffet - 'polish off'?
more like polish up I think
if I polish off my car it shines
and is polished up...lol...
a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan
flesh/spirit.....always fun or interesting...to face
together
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Kit Sober
Thanks. Refreshing and liberating explanations. Thanks, again :)
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cman
thanks for looking at a few ramblings Kit
so much more as you know
for Christ is all in all
where there is neither male nor female
Jew or Gentile...as the scriptures declare
the masculine will always dominate
can it allow the feminine Spirit of God to unfold
with temperance held in the man's hand
we have the nature of God inside
sons daughters ... both
intertwined
can the power of the Spirit be let loose
in it's time, in it's time
Jesus said he was a son of God, of the nature of God
he didn't corner the market on it.....
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Ham
Sometimes.. the weak do no want their infirmities born..
I tried, once, or more than once..
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cman
well, gotta know what infirmities are first
and be able to see them in another?
most don't know what their own are
Paul took pleasure in his own
and 'bear' those of the weak
and still says when I am weak, then am I strong
apparently God said
I do think there are more assumptions of meanings then understanding what is being said
what is it really talking about here?
s.i.t. Twi style, I don't buy it for a second
the Spirit helping our infirmities?
doesn't say relief from, right
then there the Spirit again making
intercession for us
happening without it being seen, maybe, but maybe not
then it goes beyond the limits of language
past uttering into something else
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cman
maybe when one is weak
strength is recognized from where it comes from
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Twinky
I don't remember this from PFAL. What I remember is that VPW said that people said that the thorn in the flesh was some issue they themselves were grappling with. Like weak eyes or a feeble body.
But (he said) it was people - people who went round straight after Paul had taught freedom in Christ, and those people, "thorns", were trying to put the new converts straight back under the law. The implication from that would be that VPW was teaching "freedom" and others - mainstream churches? deprogrammers? - went along straight afterwards to try to uproot freedom truths.
Ironic, really, as it was exactly the opposite that was happening - he was teaching bondage disguised as freedom, and others were trying to uproot his pernicious teachings.
"Thorns" - VPW taught - were definitely people. He referred to Num 33:55.
Here are some scriptures referring to people as thorns:
Hey, if you wanted to, you could build the most amazing theology about "thorns" really meaning "unbelievers." Check out any Bible search engine.
But I'm not at all sure that you can build a theology about "thorns" being illnesses, addictions or other physical ailments.
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Twinky
And while you certainly could build a theology about unbelievers being "thorns," by no means should you build a theology that says people who don't agree with you are unworthy of the love of God, or consigned to the fires of hell or to become greasespots by midnight, or that such people are otherwise to be badly treated.
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waysider
waysider said:
"Do you remember how, in the PFAL class, Wierwille said something to the effect that people have even said Paul's Thorn was sexual addiction?"
Twinky responded:
"I don't remember this from PFAL. What I remember is that VPW said that people said that the thorn in the flesh was some issue they themselves were grappling with. Like weak eyes or a feeble body."
........................................................
Along with this, as I recall, he said something like, "I'd make darn sure I had proof before I laid that at Paul's feet." (paraphrased)
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Ham
yet we have evidence to lay that claim at the feet of victor paul. small v and p on purpose here.
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excathedra
what was vp's thorn? like i really care
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Kit Sober
RE "vp's thorn in the flesh"
From my opinion: The Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh was what he kept struggling with as he served the Lord. JE Stiles, Mother Teresa, Oral Roberts, David Wilkerson -- These people could relate to their thorn in the flesh because they struggled and endeavored to walk with the Lord and serve Him their whole life and we can find evidence of their struggles as we review their life's work.
Nicky Cruz, Billy Graham, and others that we know personally who live to the best of their ability before the Lord can today find hope and comfort and inspiration in identifying what was Paul's "thorn in the flesh." I am reading now "One Holy Fire" by Nicky Cruz and he identifies and is open about many of the personal struggles he overcame in order to serve the Lord. And how his wife had to take a big risk to marry him because of the baggage that he brought to their marriage from his abusive and wicked-spirit filled life before he was saved.
vp is not in this category. The "thorn in the flesh" speaks of a struggle before the Lord. vp did not have that. He was not one who was struggling to serve the Lord, in my opinion. He was an abuser and a user of people. A thief and a plagiarizer of others' ideas and work.
If he had a ministry and then abandoned it (as I once believed), then at that time he abandoned his ministry there was a decision of some kind before the Lord and perhaps at that time the "thorn in the flesh" concept would be applicable. To be able to identify vp's "thorn in the flesh" would be to know of that struggle, if he had a ministry and if there was a time of struggle for him.
In my experience and from the information gleaned from others who have been willing to bare their souls to help others understand the reality of what we endured in twi, I certainly am no longer able to say that vp had a ministry before the Lord (as I once believed). I believe he leeched off many many people's spiritual walk with the Lord and appropriated their/our gleanings as his own. He may have been a true psychopath. I don't know. He has faced the Lord and his judgment has been/will be made (I am not sure of that timetable). vp's judgment is between him and the Lord in my opinion.
I do not believe that it is appropriate to compare whatever vp was thinking with the effort of personal struggles that the Apostle Paul went through to ensure that we had the precious stuff that he brought into the world. As the Apostle Paul poured out such things as, "beloved I wish above all things thou may prosper and be in health," and
Paul was honest and true before the Lord and of a different category than vp. To compare vp and the precious ones who have struggled and who continue to struggle against the ministers of satan to serve the Lord is comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.I listened to vp "do" Ephesians two times with all his stolen and intellectual knowledge. But there was never any life of the spirit in vp's words. I am only thankful that I was able to find out why, and remain ever grateful for Transchat, for Waydale, and especially for the Greasespot Cafe which showed me why I was not brought closer to the Lord by vp's works.Mich@el M@rt1n told me to read Ephesians every day. D3l Dunc@n healed my brain. Bi11 Sch1ey. There are so many to whom I owe my life before the Lord. But I do not know that vp is among them.
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